Discussion Official V Discussion Thread

[Echizen_Akira]

I don't remember the exact details, but there was a thread where some people believed that because Bam and Enne are products of the outside world (2 irregular parents) they could be defacto irregulars, while I don't personally buy into that, if it were the case they could be potential threats to Jahad. And to me Gustang's opinion of V seemed personal, perhaps if Enne were born back then, V may have wanted her as one of his slayers too. So Jammin's theory could be plausible.


Or you know, after Bam died V went to Blossom for help trying to revive him, they were enemies but she could be sympathetic to her old friend who's child was murdered. They failed but became close and ended up doing the nasty. V sleeping with his woman, or the woman he was interested in while his own wife was grieving the loss of their child would certainly make him "the absolute worst". To make a crack theory even more crack; Baek Ryun could be their secret love child, thus explaining his shinsoo talent.

 

[Wha]

I am still convinced that V wasn't a good guy. He killed himself and left his wife alone, that's just awful. He must have been good at first and was a foil to Zahard but he too changed later. I also definitely don't believe that he was supposed to have a greater destiny than Zahard.

To be fair, from what we know he watched his wife trying to kill herself several times. She was going mad. We don't know how long he had to watch this until he died. His letter is also strange, since it says that she should go back to her companions. After Zahard killed her son? And her husband killed himself? She should go back? That sounds weird to me, there should be more to it.

As for the destiny thing. Since Zahard sayed himself that he is messing with fate, and we don't know since when he started to do so, but it could be that he "stole" V's "destiny". Hard to say with so little information about the whole thing.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2019 ---

I don't remember the exact details, but there was a thread where some people believed that because Bam and Enne are products of the outside world (2 irregular parents) they could be defacto irregulars, while I don't personally buy into that, if it were the case they could be potential threats to Jahad. And to me Gustang's opinion of V seemed personal, perhaps if Enne were born back then, V may have wanted her as one of his slayers too. So Jammin's theory could be plausible.

Don't get me wrong, but isn't this going completely against the lore so far? The reason Bam is so important to FUG and such a threat to Zahard is because he is an irregular. The thorn, being not bound by the contracts (unless he makes them himself) of the tower and all his other "irregular boosts" are the reason that he is FUG's only hope on slaying Zahard. FUG is very old from what we know and they have at the least Luslec, who knew V and could know such things. My question:
Why didn't FUG make a move to get Enne?
Give her the thorn and fuck up Zahard. She already seems to have a grudge against him, whereas Bam, when they abducted him, doesn't even knew the dude. With her, you could possibly get the support of Gustang AND Blossom. Bam had no allies whatsoever. She is the better deal compared to a young boy who knows nothing and has to be build up from scratch. Yes, his talent is outerworldly, but he still needs time to catch up. Enne on the other hand is already at the top. No matter how you look at it, if what you say is true, she would be the better choice in every way.
Consider how ruthless FUG seems to be. They have a lot of resources and manpower, good connections to other groups like the workshop (at least they had) - so breaking Enne out, if Garam could get in to see her, is definitly possible. Yet they put all their trust on Bam - wheter they want to use him, serve him or make him into a weapon.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Well she's a princess so Jahad can "control" her, that's one possible reason. But as I said, I don't really but into the theory myself, I just can't rule it out. It's not uncommon for the characters and even the readers to learn everything they think they know to be true, is actually a lie, after all. :/

 

[Wha]

Well she's a princess so Jahad can "control" her, that's one possible reason.

Data Maschenny fought against him....yes, she stared at him for a moment, but she wasn't out of action like Androssi. Plus Androssi had the snake charm guy at that time, which could be part of the reason why she reacted like that.

It's not uncommon for the characters and even the readers to learn everything they think they know to be true, is actually a lie, after all.

That's true. But in this case, the chances are very slim. And i am not talking about achieving some irregular powers without being one - we have seen examples of that. But Zahard's contract states that no residence of the tower can kill him. No one that is bound that is. If you are born inside the tower, you are considered a resident of the tower. Maybe you have some special powers, but you can't go against a contract. Not even Arlene, a real Irregular, was able to kill herself, because she was bound by her immortality contract.

 

[Jammin]

What i find interesting is that V is portrayed in two completely different ways in a short periode of time. Gustang said that Bam's father was the worst person ever, shortly after Data Edhuan says the nicest stuff about V. Like he always cared about everyone around him and stuff. So there is definitly something going on. Although i interpret it differently.

Since Luslec is the current head of FUG and was a warlord of V, there is most likely a connection between FUG and V / Arlene. But we don't know who created FUG. Was it Luslec / other guys who witnessed the war, or was it Arlene / V? What is FUG's purpose, why was it created? Just for revenge and killing Zahard and the heads? Help fulfilling the prophecy of Arlene? ....

V wanted to continue cimbling, Zahard wanted to be King. Why couldn't they have both? Zahard stays King and V & Arlene (and whoever wants to) climbs up. Unless that's not possible, for some unknown reason. Which would mean that Zahard can't allow anyone to continue the climb. But why should Bam be a threat to him?
Don't forget that at this point, Bam is born inside the tower, he is not an Irregular. Although i doubt that V could turn Bam into any kind of weapon strong enough to kill Zahard, as a tower resident, no matter how powerful Bam might get, he is bound by Zahards contract, he can't kill him. So the reason for Zahard killing Bam - and V killing himself - should be a different one.

But he was born of two irregulars. The only two other people we know of like that are princesses that are ranked in the top 10. So there is some innate power there. Though I think if V was planning something "slayer" I'd bet there would be even more too it.

As for the dissonance between the past perception of V and the current one. That's one of the reasons I think something like this happened. SIU tends to like to do shades of grey morality. So I sort of doubt it's going to be as simple as he was a good guy or a bad guy. I suspect V had good intentions but as we all know the road to hell is paved with those. And I suspect we'll learn that's what happened.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2019 ---

I don't remember the exact details, but there was a thread where some people believed that because Bam and Enne are products of the outside world (2 irregular parents) they could be defacto irregulars, while I don't personally buy into that, if it were the case they could be potential threats to Jahad. And to me Gustang's opinion of V seemed personal, perhaps if Enne were born back then, V may have wanted her as one of his slayers too. So Jammin's theory could be plausible.


Or you know, after Bam died V went to Blossom for help trying to revive him, they were enemies but she could be sympathetic to her old friend who's child was murdered. They failed but became close and ended up doing the nasty. V sleeping with his woman, or the woman he was interested in while his own wife was grieving the loss of their child would certainly make him "the absolute worst". To make a crack theory even more crack; Baek Ryun could be their secret love child, thus explaining his shinsoo talent.

My explanation of Gustang's option, in line with my other theory, is that Gustang is acting against Zahard because of what happened with Enne. I think we're going to discover that he really loves his daughter. And from that perspective if V tried to turn his child into a tool that would be the enough to make him hate and look down on the guy.

The notable thing there to me is that Gustang said that V is "the worst person he ever knew". That's interesting to me because we know that he knows that Zahard set up the princess system and the rigged 13 month series that drove his daughter mad and caused her to be sealed away. So he was saying that V is somehow worse than that. Which is kind of an achievement.

 

[Wha]

But he was born of two irregulars. The only two other people we know of like that are princesses that are ranked in the top 10. So there is some innate power there. Though I think if V was planning something "slayer" I'd bet there would be even more too it.

As for the dissonance between the past perception of V and the current one. That's one of the reasons I think something like this happened. SIU tends to like to do shades of grey morality. So I sort of doubt it's going to be as simple as he was a good guy or a bad guy. I suspect V had good intentions but as we all know the road to hell is paved with those. And I suspect we'll learn that's what happened.

Like i said, it doesn't really matter how powerful Bam (before he got killed by Zahard) or Enne or whoever is. As long as you are born inside the tower and did not open the door yourself, you are bound by the contracts made with the administrator(s). Zahard, as the king of the tower, can't be killed by any resident of the tower, no matter how strong. You also can't use the thorn without being an irregular (unless you try and melt an irregular down with it).
That's not about power.

So we have Arlene, described as being the kindest person, choosing V, although he has this "dark side" to him? That's something that makes sense. What does not make sense is that Arlene carried his dead body with her, when he kinda ruined her life. And if he did not ruin it, it means that she made the same decisions, being aware of it. Which would bring up the question why Gustang would despise Bam's father and not Arlene.

Arlene & V waged war together against the rest of them, according to Garam. Arlene wanted to continue climbing. The heads fought alongside Zahard, meaning that Gustang was an enemy of Arlene and V. Yet he doesn't seem to resent Arlene, despite her prophecy and the intention of killing Zahard (or letting him be killed).
Arlene doesn't seem to resent V, from what we know. Yet she clearly resents the "greedy king".

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2019 ---

The notable thing there to me is that Gustang said that V is "the worst person he ever knew". That's interesting to me because we know that he knows that Zahard set up the princess system and the rigged 13 month series that drove his daughter mad and caused her to be sealed away. So he was saying that V is somehow worse than that. Which is kind of an achievement.

To be fair, he never said it directly. He never said V. He said father. It is implied that V is Bam's father, so it is implied that he speaks about V. But actually, he never once mentioned V directly. Data Edhuan did, who got his information from Data Hansung.

 

[Jammin]

Like i said, it doesn't really matter how powerful Bam (before he got killed by Zahard) or Enne or whoever is. As long as you are born inside the tower and did not open the door yourself, you are bound by the contracts made with the administrator(s). Zahard, as the king of the tower, can't be killed by any resident of the tower, no matter how strong. You also can't use the thorn without being an irregular (unless you try and melt an irregular down with it).
That's not about power.

So we have Arlene, described as being the kindest person, choosing V, although he has this "dark side" to him? That's something that makes sense. What does not make sense is that Arlene carried his dead body with her, when he kinda ruined her life. And if he did not ruin it, it means that she made the same decisions, being aware of it. Which would bring up the question why Gustang would despise Bam's father and not Arlene.

Arlene & V waged war together against the rest of them, according to Garam. Arlene wanted to continue climbing. The heads fought alongside Zahard, meaning that Gustang was an enemy of Arlene and V. Yet he doesn't seem to resent Arlene, despite her prophecy and the intention of killing Zahard (or letting him be killed).
Arlene doesn't seem to resent V, from what we know. Yet she clearly resents the "greedy king".

Well, not all Slayers are irregulars either and I'm not exactly sure what the child of two irregulars is capable of honestly.

And I thought Arlen carried Baam's dead body. Not V's. I don't remember anything about what happened to V's body. She was also supposedly pretty insane by that point to be fair.

As for why Arlen didn't seem to have a grudge against V. There are two possible explanations for that one is "insanity". She wanted to believe that, so she did. The other, which I like more, is that she didn't know. Everything she said about Zahard killing Baam out of jealousy and V killing himself because he couldn't bear to see her in her state. That's how it would look from her point of view. So it would make sense for her to think that. If she loved V she's going to try to believe in him.

To be fair, he never said it directly. He never said V. He said father. It is implied that V is Bam's father, so it is implied that he speaks about V. But actually, he never once mentioned V directly. Data Edhuan did, who got his information from Data Hansung.

This is true but logically it would hold that if they were both telling the truth than they were both talking about the same person.

 

[kkck]

To be honest, I don't see V that way. He had to be a big deal considering he was on par with the other original 12 warriors but like them I suspect he wasn't really at Zahards level.

I also suspect we're going to find out some less than flattering things about the guy. Gustang's comments about him being "the worst person he ever met" is pretty damning statement from someone who also seems to be no fan of Zahard's and clearly was fond of Arlen. Not sure what soured there exactly but considering how twisted and evil FUG generally has become it makes you wonder if he was the root of that somehow.

Like I sort of question if Zahard's real motivation in killing Baam was jealousy of V. That seemed pretty far out of character for the version of him we met on the hidden floor.

I think it's possible that V was trying to weaponize his offspring somehow in a desperate attempt to overcome Zahard, which he couldn't do on his own, and didn't tell Arlen about it. Possibly planning to turn his and Arlen's child into the first "slayer" or something like that. If Zahard found out about that he would kill the child right? And the whole thing would be V's fault. Hence him killing himself and Gustang's general contempt for him.

It's just a theory but that's what I think.

I generally agree in the basic idea that V likely wasn't as strong as zahard and was closer to the other companions. There is also the fact that when eduan mentions V being the likely king in his view it's not because of his power or feats but rather because of the simple fact that he gave a shit about tower inhabitants. he didn't mention great battle prowess, divinity or some other grand feat or characteristic. It was just.... V being the only one that would care about this.

I agree in that data zahard doesnt seem like the type to do this. But.... the implication is that all family heads changed. Data eduan's last wish was for bam to ask what the actual fuck happened to the gang that changed them. And zahard himself confirms that he killed bam as an infant. I doubt the zahard we saw at the hidden floor would have had it in him to kill an infant even if it was due to V trying to weaponize him. Data zahard seemed curious and fun loving, nothing like his older self.

 

[TheMoa]

The twins were also born from 2 irregulars (Ari and Ha)... I think the Baam being irregular has more to do with wherever that cave is. It's "outside" the tower, but not really.. more like a basement. Maybe it's a lawless pocket of the tower and as the original baam was dead, when he reentered it was a new person entering the tower. I think it's more alongside that line.

About V, his death is pretty bogus... makes no sense for him to kill himself so arlene "could go back to live with her old friends". Really? Live with the guy who killed her child? I believe his "death" is part of some kind of planning to deal with Zahard and Baam is the main piece, that's why Gustang thought h's the whost.

 

[Wha]

Well, not all Slayers are irregulars either and I'm not exactly sure what the child of two irregulars is capable of honestly.

My point was about killing Zahard. If the current lore is accurate, not all 10 slayers + every blue hole + guys like jinsung, evankhell,..... could kill Zahard. Even if they had slayers or elders as strong as zahard (unlikely), they couldn't kill him. That's why an Irregular (Bam) is needed.

If two irregulars make a child, why should it be an irregular? Incredible power, yes (going by enne and what we know about her). But not being bound by the contracts? Why?

And I thought Arlen carried Baam's dead body. Not V's.

If i remember correctly, she took them both.

As for why Arlen didn't seem to have a grudge against V. There are two possible explanations for that one is "insanity". She wanted to believe that, so she did. The other, which I like more, is that she didn't know. Everything she said about Zahard killing Baam out of jealousy and V killing himself because he couldn't bear to see her in her state. That's how it would look from her point of view. So it would make sense for her to think that. If she loved V she's going to try to believe in him.

I believe his "death" is part of some kind of planning to deal with Zahard and Baam is the main piece, that's why Gustang thought h's the whost.

Fair enough. But this still does not explain Gustangs "worst person ever" statement, considering he knows Zahard. Let's just look at it


Zahard: 1) even if V wanted to use Bam, the fact remains that Zahard killed a child.
2) His hunting of Rak's relatives could be considered a genocide
3) he tricked everyone with the princess system, he has no intention of marrying one of them, making an heir that climbs up the tower. But he didn't just told them so ( out of fear of a revolt, probably) - instead, he gives the daughters of his "companions" cursed weapons that make them kill each other.
4) he imprisoned Gustang's daughter while damaging her reputation (she has gone insane and stuff).
5) he probably (not confirmed) lied to make the family heads ally with him instead of Arlene & V (considering gustangs proposal of the princess system and the reason behind it, i believe it to be the case).
6) v isn't there to make Bam a weapon again - Zahard still tried to kill him.


V: 1) tried to make Bam into a weapon to kill Zahard
2) ?

so, if he is really meant by Gustang and he was serious, V should have done evil stuff like crazy - and all of that without Arlene noticing anything at all?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

IIRC, it was said she took the dead body of the boy and items to remember V, not his actual body.

 

[Jammin]

My point was about killing Zahard. If the current lore is accurate, not all 10 slayers + every blue hole + guys like jinsung, evankhell,..... could kill Zahard. Even if they had slayers or elders as strong as zahard (unlikely), they couldn't kill him. That's why an Irregular (Bam) is needed.

If two irregulars make a child, why should it be an irregular? Incredible power, yes (going by enne and what we know about her). But not being bound by the contracts? Why?

I didn't say it would make him an irregular did I? What I said was "I'm not entirely sure what the child of two irregulars is capable of." Your making assertions about what that means. I'm not because I just don't know.

What I do know is that all the 10 family heads have immortality contracts of some type. Not just Zahard. So FUG seems to think that it's possible to fight them without being an irregular. Now I don't know if that's actually true or not; and frankly it doesn't matter. Because what I'm theorizing are V's possible motives for turning his son into the first "Slayer". And suggesting that his motives might be the same as FUG with their slayers. Turning powerful people into weapons to use in the war against the 10 families. What if that idea originated with V?

Fair enough. But this still does not explain Gustangs "worst person ever" statement, considering he knows Zahard. Let's just look at it


Zahard: 1) even if V wanted to use Bam, the fact remains that Zahard killed a child.
2) His hunting of Rak's relatives could be considered a genocide
3) he tricked everyone with the princess system, he has no intention of marrying one of them, making an heir that climbs up the tower. But he didn't just told them so ( out of fear of a revolt, probably) - instead, he gives the daughters of his "companions" cursed weapons that make them kill each other.
4) he imprisoned Gustang's daughter while damaging her reputation (she has gone insane and stuff).
5) he probably (not confirmed) lied to make the family heads ally with him instead of Arlene & V (considering gustangs proposal of the princess system and the reason behind it, i believe it to be the case).
6) v isn't there to make Bam a weapon again - Zahard still tried to kill him.


V: 1) tried to make Bam into a weapon to kill Zahard
2) ?

so, if he is really meant by Gustang and he was serious, V should have done evil stuff like crazy - and all of that without Arlene noticing anything at all?

But you can look at all the things Zahard is suggested to have done and see the logic of it. Right. He's done terrible things but if you buy the idea that he's a king doing whatever is necessary to protect his rule and domain. It would make sense of Gustang to hate him but also sort of understand him.

If V really was attempting to use his own child into a weapon. In the eyes of a father like Gustang who lost a child that's far worse. Because it's one thing for somebody to sacrifice others for their desires and quite another to sacrifice your own loved ones for it. In the eyes of a father that's the lowest of the low.

 

[Wha]

I didn't say it would make him an irregular did I? What I said was "I'm not entirely sure what the child of two irregulars is capable of." Your making assertions about what that means. I'm not because I just don't know.

Ok, now i am confused. You said, at the beginning of our discussion, that

I think it's possible that V was trying to weaponize his offspring somehow in a desperate attempt to overcome Zahard

I replied with this

Although i doubt that V could turn Bam into any kind of weapon strong enough to kill Zahard, as a tower resident, no matter how powerful Bam might get, he is bound by Zahards contract, he can't kill him.

But he was born of two irregulars. The only two other people we know of like that are princesses that are ranked in the top 10. So there is some innate power there. Though I think if V was planning something "slayer" I'd bet there would be even more too it.

Like i said, it doesn't really matter how powerful Bam (before he got killed by Zahard) or Enne or whoever is. As long as you are born inside the tower and did not open the door yourself, you are bound by the contracts made with the administrator(s). Zahard, as the king of the tower, can't be killed by any resident of the tower, no matter how strong.

Well, not all Slayers are irregulars either and I'm not exactly sure what the child of two irregulars is capable of honestly.

Then i said

My point was about killing Zahard. If the current lore is accurate, not all 10 slayers + every blue hole + guys like jinsung, evankhell,..... could kill Zahard. Even if they had slayers or elders as strong as zahard (unlikely), they couldn't kill him. That's why an Irregular (Bam) is needed.

So what did you mean, if you didn't mean him having an "irregular status" because he has two irregular Parents?
Because him having some kind of irregular status is the only thing that would make sense to me - if you are right, if V did try to weaponize him against Zahard.

What I do know is that all the 10 family heads have immortality contracts of some type. Not just Zahard. So FUG seems to think that it's possible to fight them without being an irregular. Now I don't know if that's actually true or not; and frankly it doesn't matter. Because what I'm theorizing are V's possible motives for turning his son into the first "Slayer". And suggesting that his motives might be the same as FUG with their slayers. Turning powerful people into weapons to use in the war against the 10 families. What if that idea originated with V?

Let's take Karaka as an example. He aims for Zahards life, if i am not mistaken. It was said a lot of times that this is "impossible". Unless you have an irregular / irregular weapon. Nonetheless, it was his goal. He even said something like that to Jinsung after the failed melting atempt. Hwa Ryun told Wangnan something similar when they first talked (although she lies nearly all the time, so she isn't the best example).
So it's, in my opinion, more accurate to say that FUG fights the heads and Zahard without having any real chance of winning, without an irregular that is. I think they know that, which is one main reason why they are waiting in the shadows. It would also make sense why Bam is so important to them, being a weapon or a God. Or why he is so important to Zahard.
He couldn't care less about FUG, because they were a bunch of outlaws who could do nothing to harm his life. But when he saw Bam on the hidden floor, one of the orders included FUG. Before, he led them be. Now, he wants to erase them. Why is that if not because of his fear that Bam might become the (main) Slayer of FUG & are allied / might be allied to the Po Bidau family?


If the reason for Zahard killing Bam was that V wanted to make his child into the first slayer , i start to wonder why there are any slayers at all.

He didn't kill V in the war (although the reason is unclear). What reason is there to kill his child? How did he find out about it? Through lighthouses or spies (or both)? If so, he has many options. He could tell Arlene, or send some family heads to talk to her, or some messanger. If she doesn't believe him or whoever is send, they could show her, sneaking up on him while he is turning Bam into the first slayer, like they did before (since Zahard found out about it).
Would be perfect if he is still in love with her. Showing her that she misjudged V. So Zahard could be the hero in the shining armor, saving her and Bam from V.

But you can look at all the things Zahard is suggested to have done and see the logic of it. Right. He's done terrible things but if you buy the idea that he's a king doing whatever is necessary to protect his rule and domain. It would make sense of Gustang to hate him but also sort of understand him.

Yes, but if we are going to use this point of view, i could say that
you can look at all the things V is suggested to have done and see the logic of it. He's done terrible things but if you buy the idea that he is a free Irregular climbing up the tower, doing whatever is necessary to protect and regain his freedom / climbing up the tower again. It would make sense of Gustang to hate V but also sort of understand him.

If V really was attempting to use his own child into a weapon. In the eyes of a father like Gustang who lost a child that's far worse. Because it's one thing for somebody to sacrifice others for their desires and quite another to sacrifice your own loved ones for it. In the eyes of a father that's the lowest of the low.

Back to the information gathering part. If their spies / lighthouses were qualified enough to fuck with V, they should be aware that Arlene doesn't know anything. Gustang is aware, if you are correct. Since he doesn't seem to resent her. So again, why not just tell her? Subdue V, put him in prison, kill him, whatever.
Killing the child and breaking Arlenes heart even though he knew that she was innocent? I am not sure if there is a real difference. It would mean that Edit: Zahard sacrifices Bam, Arlenes child, to hurt V. Is that any better than what V is doing, in the eyes of Gustang? I am not sure about that.

 

[Jammin]

So what did you mean, if you didn't mean him having an "irregular status" because he has two irregular Parents?
Because him having some kind of irregular status is the only thing that would make sense to me - if you are right, if V did try to weaponize him against Zahard.

I meant literally exactly what I said. "There is power there." Enne was super powerful. She's the only other one we know of right? I never suggested that having two irregular parents makes you an irregular. That's never the argument that I was making. Just that it could make you powerful.

And that V might have done something to further weaponize that power in his quest to overthrow Zahard.

 

[Wha]

I meant literally exactly what I said. "There is power there." Enne was super powerful. She's the only other one we know of right? I never suggested that having two irregular parents makes you an irregular. That's never the argument that I was making. Just that it could make you powerful.

But why do you say that after i made the point that it doesn't matter how powerful Bam might get, as long as there is Zahards contract?
Add to that how long it would have taken for Bam to be on that level. Even Enne needed a few hundred years. There was just no need to kill the child the way he did. Unless he wanted to hurt V / Arlene. Which would put him, in the eyes of Gustang, in the same league as V.

And that V might have done something to further weaponize that power in his quest to overthrow Zahard.

Just to be clear. V had an army. And an irregular ally, Arlene. It wasn't enough.
Raising his child to be a slayer could strengthen his troops, but if him and Arlene weren't able to actually defeat Zahard / kill him, what does Bam really change? And again, he would have needed time to grow. Enough time for Zahard to find another solution to the problem, without killing an innocent child that was/ is being brainwashed by V. Like telling Arlene and showing her proof? Imprison V and making a process, showing all the evidence against him?

 

[Jammin]

But why do you say that after i made the point that it doesn't matter how powerful Bam might get, as long as there is Zahards contract?
Add to that how long it would have taken for Bam to be on that level. Even Enne needed a few hundred years. There was just no need to kill the child the way he did. Unless he wanted to hurt V / Arlene. Which would put him, in the eyes of Gustang, in the same league as V.

As I said before, the answer is that most of the current slayers don't posses that power either and all of the family heads have some form of immortality just like Zahard. Maybe it wouldn't have worked. But the current Slayers and FUG leaders don't seem to feel it's pointless to cultivate them.

If you want specfics about what V might have wanted to do to enable Baam to be his Slayer of Zahard. I don't know. Maybe it was to become powerful enough to beat him down so another irregular could finish him. Or wield some weird weapon like the thorn. I don't know. How could I? This all just conjecture based mainly around how V was presented.

Just to be clear. V had an army. And an irregular ally, Arlene. It wasn't enough.
Raising his child to be a slayer could strengthen his troops, but if him and Arlene weren't able to actually defeat Zahard / kill him, what does Bam really change? And again, he would have needed time to grow. Enough time for Zahard to find another solution to the problem, without killing an innocent child that was/ is being brainwashed by V. Like telling Arlene and showing her proof? Imprison V and making a process, showing all the evidence against him?

I can't know what he specifically hoped Baam could do for him until I know more obviously. That's why it's just a theory.

We don't even know how the contract based immortality works. Maybe there is some loophole. There are alot of maybes here.

 

[Wha]

As I said before, the answer is that most of the current slayers don't posses that power either and all of the family heads have some form of immortality just like Zahard. Maybe it wouldn't have worked. But the current Slayers and FUG leaders don't seem to feel it's pointless to cultivate them.

And i gave you Karaka's example for that. He most likely targets Zahard, without any real way of killing him (unless an Irregular shows up).
Of course it's not pointless to have an army and strong generals (slayer) to lead them. But if Zahard killed Bam because he was turned into a slayer / weapon, it was unnecessary. We are talking about a child that, no matter how strong, could never hope to kill him. Plenty of time to find other solutions to the problem.

I can't know what he specifically hoped Baam could do for him until I know more obviously. That's why it's just a theory.

We don't even know how the contract based immortality works. Maybe there is some loophole. There are alot of maybes here.

Yes, it's a theory. Since you shared it, i discussed it with you and told you why i find it unlikely to be the truth. V doing things to deserve Gustangs description or not isn't the real problem here. Could be, couldn't. Not enough information for that. The real problem lies with what we know about Zahard an contracts.

To top Zahrds deeds, you need quite a few "achievments". Then you brought the example of Bam being weaponized by V and i told why i think that this is not likely.

As for the contracts, we have more information. We do know that Arlene couldn't kill herself, which makes it look like contracts are pretty tough (being the best spellcaster and all). We know what the 2nd floor guardian said about contracts and shakles. It was said several times that those rules should not apply to Bam - because he is an irregular. The spell breaking thing is something different. It was also adressed as such.
We know that FUG, in all the years it existed (and with their connection to V via Luslec) were never able to find a way for killing Zahard that didn't involved the thorn & an irregular. If so, he would be dead by now.

 

[EternalWinter]

I think the man that Hana fell for is V tbh

 

[Jammin]

And i gave you Karaka's example for that. He most likely targets Zahard, without any real way of killing him (unless an Irregular shows up).
Of course it's not pointless to have an army and strong generals (slayer) to lead them. But if Zahard killed Bam because he was turned into a slayer / weapon, it was unnecessary. We are talking about a child that, no matter how strong, could never hope to kill him. Plenty of time to find other solutions to the problem.

If Baam was capable of beating Zahard, even if he couldn't kill him. V could have done that part right?

This was, hypothetically, V's plan.

You say the child could have never hoped to kill him. I don't actually know that that's true. Your making assertions about what a child of two irregulars would be capable of and incapable of without a real basis as well as what Baam's role might have been to overthrow Zahard if my thoery is accurate. You don't have to kill somebody to beat them. after all.

Yes, it's a theory. Since you shared it, i discussed it with you and told you why i find it unlikely to be the truth. V doing things to deserve Gustangs description or not isn't the real problem here. Could be, couldn't. Not enough information for that. The real problem lies with what we know about Zahard an contracts.

To top Zahrds deeds, you need quite a few "achievments". Then you brought the example of Bam being weaponized by V and i told why i think that this is not likely.

As for the contracts, we have more information. We do know that Arlene couldn't kill herself, which makes it look like contracts are pretty tough (being the best spellcaster and all). We know what the 2nd floor guardian said about contracts and shakles. It was said several times that those rules should not apply to Bam - because he is an irregular. The spell breaking thing is something different. It was also adressed as such.
We know that FUG, in all the years it existed (and with their connection to V via Luslec) were never able to find a way for killing Zahard that didn't involved the thorn & an irregular. If so, he would be dead by now.

That's fair. It's just my theory about V and I'm not really trying to convince anybody that it's accurate.

That there is no other method is a pretty big assumption. We have no way of knowing that. In order to really understand the limits of the contract based immortality we'd have to know how it works.

 

[Wha]

If Baam was capable of beating Zahard, even if he couldn't kill him. V could have done that part right?

This was, hypothetically, V's plan.

Yes, could be - but that would mean that Zahard is an asshole / child murderer nonetheless and not the king that defends his territory because he has to. Killing a child because of his fathers sin? Again, Bam would have needed time to grow. Enough time to figure something out that doesn't involve killing Bam.

You say the child could have never hoped to kill him. I don't actually know that that's true. Your making assertions about what a child of two irregulars would be capable of and incapable of without a real basis as well as what Baam's role might have been to overthrow Zahard if my thoery is accurate. You don't have to kill somebody to beat them. after all.

Well i see it like with scientific work. There is the theory that irregulars are the ones that come through the door, it was said a few times. So far, we know of no exception to this, as such, it counts as some sort of "law". Of course it could be, but as of now, it's unlikely.
Take shinwonryu by example. It was also said that only irregulars can use it. BUT we have at least one example for the opposite, the GoG. Since that is the case, i would say it's likely that a non irregular can't use it, but since we have an actual example, it's not a law.

if it turns out that Enne is not bound by any contracts, except for the ones she makes herself, i would say it's plausible. As of now, it is very unlikely.

That's fair. It's just my theory about V and I'm not really trying to convince anybody that it's accurate.

I never thought that you tried that. It's a theory and i apologize if i made the impression that i think it's impossible. I don't think so. but i have my doubts - and this doubts i wanted to discuss.

That there is no other method is a pretty big assumption. We have no way of knowing that. In order to really understand the limits of the contract based immortality we'd have to know how it works.

You are right, there might be a way. But as of now, nothing points towards that direction. Look at FUG - they might differ in the way they want to handle Bam, but, as of now, every faction seems to know that they need him. They existed for i don't know how many years - their obsession with Bam doesn't make much sense if there are other ways.