Chapter One Piece Chapter 935 Discussion / 936 Predictions

Hrathgrath

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The thing is Armament Haki apparently only makes the body of Logia users get interacted as thought it were solid.
  • Kizaru's Sword is not a part of his body, but a construct.
When Kizaru and Rayleigh's Sword clashes, it makes a "KLANG" SFX which is the sound made when something solid hits a metal object.

If Rayleigh's Sword is repelling Kizaru's Light-sabre because of Haki, then that would mean that Kizaru could shoot a beam of light and Rayleigh could potentially grab it with Haki, and I doubt that is possible.

Personally, I think anything hard enough would have repelled Kizaru's sword since it appears to be like solid light which is odd in itself. However, might have to wait to see more of Kizaru's fights.
(Really hope this doesn’t become a thing...)
Remember when Smoker was fighting Vergo? Vergo suggested that anything coming from Smoker was still a part of his body, just making a bigger target. Now while I agree on the idea that a burst, like his laser shots, may not be a part of him, something like the sword seems like it would have to be a part of his body since it didn’t leave his control, or dissipate. Totally a theory. I guess it falls to wether the sword was an extension of his body or a creation of ambient light, like awakening (which I’m all but positive the admirals have).
 

thedude

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I don't believe Haki has changed at all. It still does exactly the same as it did pre-skip. There's not a thing I can recall that differs from how it was represented. What is called a different application is actually a misreading of the graphical panel.

A lot of these misunderstands are made clear if people read the VIZ because of the SFX which adds more context to scenes that might otherwise not make sense.

First thing that needs be established is that "WHAM" is an SFX that denotes 2 surfaces hitting the other. It is consistently seen throughout the VIZ.

The thing you call "shock-wave/new old of Haki" is just the point-of-impact which can also be seen when Luffy punches the Gorgon sisters; it's an imagery device Oda uses to highlight impact. It's much clearer here in the VIZ:
  • Rayleigh hitting the Elephant, WHAM and Impact-circle present.
  • Seen with Sentomaru, Impact-circle present.
  • Impact Circle against the Gorgon sisters.
What Oda was doing here was really showcasing that Armament Haki is hard, and that's why Luffy's attacks bounced off. Just going back to the Gorgon sisters, what happened when he used Gear 2nd when she tried to defend with Haki? No deflection, Gear 2nd makes Luffy stronger and therefore, no deflection this time, it hit hard and she fell.
  • Impact Circle present again.
Haki has not changed, it's remained consistent.

As for whether I'm applying too much logic, I'd say more like I'm trying to stay consistent with what has already been shown in the Manga. Things have to make sense within context and the rules set in the OP world.



For one, it'd be odd if someone like Blackbeard, a 20+ year member of the crew wasn't a Haki user. The Vivre-card has confirmed it.
Blackbeard was the first to commend Luffy on his Haki. It indicated he was an Observation Haki user at the very least.

And also, this fight with Ace shows Blackbeard using Haki that a lot of people missed.
One thing not well known about Blackbeard's Yami Yami no Mi, it doesn't deactivate DF powers of others on contact, it only does so if he grabs the person or is in continuous contact with them. I assure you, no exception where a DF power is deactivated simply for being in contact with him.
It's only when he Grabs. Any other form of contact doesn't negate the DF; if there's no grab, there's no deactivation.
Blackbeard hit Ace when he didn't grab him meaning he hit him with Armament Haki.

Highly doubt the guy who took Shanks with his strength lacks Haki especially being a veteran in the crew. All Whitebeard's statement about Blackbeard meant is not that he lacks Haki, but that he's simply overconfident.
I disagree with your interpretation. I see each of those people using haki the same way, and Luffy hitting a forcefield. The impact circle appears to be Luffy hitting that field created by their haki. And it's interesting that each of them used Haki with the same hand motion, as if holding a forcefield in front of themselves. Likewise we have the admirals stopping White Beards earthquake by holding their hands out and creating a forcefield.


The exact same motion. Them putting their hands out in the exact same way as Sentomaru, the exact same way as the Gorgon sisters, deflected an earthquake with a haki forcefield of some kind. A navy soldier even says "It missed the platform, what deflected it?" There are puffs of smoke around their hands too. "impact" marks...but it's blocking an earthquake, and blocking it far below their hands as well, as the entire platform survived.

Sorry, MS paint arrows isn't convincing me that this haki pre time skip, before Oda fleshed it out, is the same as what he eventually settled on. Even when Luffy hit Black Beard in Impel Down with a normal attack Black Beard remarked at how much better Luffy's Haki was after Luffy punched him. Luffy didn't know how to use Haki at that time at least in our understanding of haki today.

So again, not a single person has used the haki "forcefield" in 9 years, Oda switched that to the armament haki we see today. Which isn't weird, lots of story tellers change things up when they have different or better ideas, especially in a story this long.
 

Hrathgrath

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I don't believe Haki has changed at all. It still does exactly the same as it did pre-skip. There's not a thing I can recall that differs from how it was represented. What is called a different application is actually a misreading of the graphical panel.

A lot of these misunderstands are made clear if people read the VIZ because of the SFX which adds more context to scenes that might otherwise not make sense.

First thing that needs be established is that "WHAM" is an SFX that denotes 2 surfaces hitting the other. It is consistently seen throughout the VIZ.

The thing you call "shock-wave/new old of Haki" is just the point-of-impact which can also be seen when Luffy punches the Gorgon sisters; it's an imagery device Oda uses to highlight impact. It's much clearer here in the VIZ:
  • Rayleigh hitting the Elephant, WHAM and Impact-circle present.
  • Seen with Sentomaru, Impact-circle present.
  • Impact Circle against the Gorgon sisters.
What Oda was doing here was really showcasing that Armament Haki is hard, and that's why Luffy's attacks bounced off. Just going back to the Gorgon sisters, what happened when he used Gear 2nd when she tried to defend with Haki? No deflection, Gear 2nd makes Luffy stronger and therefore, no deflection this time, it hit hard and she fell.
  • Impact Circle present again.
Haki has not changed, it's remained consistent.

As for whether I'm applying too much logic, I'd say more like I'm trying to stay consistent with what has already been shown in the Manga. Things have to make sense within context and the rules set in the OP world.



For one, it'd be odd if someone like Blackbeard, a 20+ year member of the crew wasn't a Haki user. The Vivre-card has confirmed it.
Blackbeard was the first to commend Luffy on his Haki. It indicated he was an Observation Haki user at the very least.

And also, this fight with Ace shows Blackbeard using Haki that a lot of people missed.
One thing not well known about Blackbeard's Yami Yami no Mi, it doesn't deactivate DF powers of others on contact, it only does so if he grabs the person or is in continuous contact with them. I assure you, no exception where a DF power is deactivated simply for being in contact with him.
It's only when he Grabs. Any other form of contact doesn't negate the DF; if there's no grab, there's no deactivation.
Blackbeard hit Ace when he didn't grab him meaning he hit him with Armament Haki.

Highly doubt the guy who took Shanks with his strength lacks Haki especially being a veteran in the crew. All Whitebeard's statement about Blackbeard meant is not that he lacks Haki, but that he's simply overconfident.
I disagree with your interpretation. I see each of those people using haki the same way, and Luffy hitting a forcefield. The impact circle appears to be Luffy hitting that field created by their haki. And it's interesting that each of them used Haki with the same hand motion, as if holding a forcefield in front of themselves. Likewise we have the admirals stopping White Beards earthquake by holding their hands out and creating a forcefield.


The exact same motion. Them putting their hands out in the exact same way as Sentomaru, the exact same way as the Gorgon sisters, deflected an earthquake with a haki forcefield of some kind. A navy soldier even says "It missed the platform, what deflected it?" There are puffs of smoke around their hands too. "impact" marks...but it's blocking an earthquake, and blocking it far below their hands as well, as the entire platform survived.

Sorry, MS paint arrows isn't convincing me that this haki pre time skip, before Oda fleshed it out, is the same as what he eventually settled on. Even when Luffy hit Black Beard in Impel Down with a normal attack Black Beard remarked at how much better Luffy's Haki was after Luffy punched him. Luffy didn't know how to use Haki at that time at least in our understanding of haki today.

So again, not a single person has used the haki "forcefield" in 9 years, Oda switched that to the armament haki we see today. Which isn't weird, lots of story tellers change things up when they have different or better ideas, especially in a story this long.
Honestly you both have a fair point. @Hannibal Psyche Yes, the areas definitely look like impact circles, but they look (to me anyway) like an impact but over a larger area. Sorta like he smacked the elephants foot with a large invisible buckler. The gorgon sisters seem to have the same type of thing. A large impact circle for a small area of impact, suggesting that the area of impact was much larger than we could see physically. And on that note, the admirals guarding a large area, the entire execution platform, from Whitebeard's attack with the same type of pose seems to back up that idea. The only thing that really is up for argument is the area of effect. Either A) the physical area of the hand(s) doing the blocking. or B) A wider area in front of them.

On the note of Haki "changing" I don't think we can say it has changed, only that a technique that we saw being used by some very high level haki users has not been seen since. Which could mean that Oda changed the way haki works, but I think it's more like we just haven't seen someone with the level of skill to do that technique since that time.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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and Luffy hitting a forcefield
Well, it's not a force field. That's why there's the impact-circle. Haki can only be imbued on physical objects. There's really not even 1 example of a Force field being present. It's simply their hands.

The exact same motion. Them putting their hands out in the exact same way as Sentomaru, the exact same way as the Gorgon sisters,
Yes, a Palm thrust. Luffy punched and they deflected his weight backwards with their hardened palms. It's not a force field.

That's why the SFX says WHAM or similar, it's 2 surfaces hitting the other.


Ironically, this scene you bring up is the same thing. They hardened their palms with Haki. That's why they're all lined up to dissipate the impact of Whitebeard's Shockwave. It's not some force field. Haki has done the same thing back then and now. Haki can't be imbued beyond physical objects.

If you provided evidence where Luffy hit a character or a character was shot, but the bullet was clearly outside of their body and the object reacted, that'd be proof of a force field. What we see here, the attacks are going directly to the characters. It is hitting them physically and they simply retaliate with the thrust. It's not some new technique.
 
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M3J

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(Really hope this doesn’t become a thing...)
Remember when Smoker was fighting Vergo? Vergo suggested that anything coming from Smoker was still a part of his body, just making a bigger target. Now while I agree on the idea that a burst, like his laser shots, may not be a part of him, something like the sword seems like it would have to be a part of his body since it didn’t leave his control, or dissipate. Totally a theory. I guess it falls to wether the sword was an extension of his body or a creation of ambient light, like awakening (which I’m all but positive the admirals have).
Kizaru seems to be creating the light thing though, notice how he can shoot lights from his finger and create a sword. Those aren't extensions of his body but created weapons. However, if Kizaru moved, it'd still be his body trying to mov, and he'd be affected, I think. It's the same with Smoker, but he can't create weapons or shoot anything that's not part of his body, it seems, he's always using his real body and turning it into smoke as needed.

Kizaru's sword seems to be made like Aokiji's sword, but it probably dissipates if Kizaru's not touching it because it's made up of light, while Aokiji's would melt, but magma can't be made into a weapon, it can only be used as projectile. I think to wonder if things like haki would affect the devil fruit users, we'd have to look at the characteristics of the fruit itself. Like, logia users' body are forced to be normal if touched by season, but paramecia users (or at least Luffy) seem to keep their fruit power but can't use it. But then again, I don't see Kizaru not being affected like Smoker since he's still moving his body, it's just in logia form, so stuff like that would be similar.
 

thedude

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Honestly you both have a fair point. @Hannibal Psyche Yes, the areas definitely look like impact circles, but they look (to me anyway) like an impact but over a larger area. Sorta like he smacked the elephants foot with a large invisible buckler. The gorgon sisters seem to have the same type of thing. A large impact circle for a small area of impact, suggesting that the area of impact was much larger than we could see physically. And on that note, the admirals guarding a large area, the entire execution platform, from Whitebeard's attack with the same type of pose seems to back up that idea. The only thing that really is up for argument is the area of effect. Either A) the physical area of the hand(s) doing the blocking. or B) A wider area in front of them.

On the note of Haki "changing" I don't think we can say it has changed, only that a technique that we saw being used by some very high level haki users has not been seen since. Which could mean that Oda changed the way haki works, but I think it's more like we just haven't seen someone with the level of skill to do that technique since that time.
I agree, both points are valid, so I won't say i'm 100% right. And by me saying haki "changed" what I mean is Oda hadn't fully defined it pre-timeskip. Post time skip he really focused on it as the most important part of New World fights, so it got fleshed out more. And what I think is he subtly changed the armament haki to make it more versatile in fights. It shifted from a type of force field to something that is offensive as well as defensive. It wasn't a drastic change, but it was enough of one that I think he shifted his plans for it, just a little.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Well, it's not a force field. That's why there's the impact-circle. Haki can only be imbued on physical objects. There's really not even 1 example of a Force field being present. It's simply their hands.



Yes, a Palm thrust. Luffy punched and they deflected his weight backwards with their hardened palms. It's not a force field.

That's why the SFX says WHAM or similar, it's 2 surfaces hitting the other.


Ironically, this scene you bring up is the same thing. They hardened their palms with Haki. That's why they're all lined up to dissipate the impact of Whitebeard's Shockwave. It's not some force field. Haki has done the same thing back then and now. Haki can't be imbued beyond physical objects.

If you provided evidence where Luffy hit a character or a character was shot, but the bullet was clearly outside of their body and the object reacted, that'd be proof of a force field. What we see here, the attacks are going directly to the characters. It is hitting them physically and they simply retaliate with the thrust. It's not some new technique.
Yeah, your explanation for the blocking of White Beards shock wave just doesn't work. If it can't be imbued on non-physical things, them sticking their hands out on top of the giant platform will not effect the shock wave 50 feet below them on the bottom of the platform. they aren't just protecting themselves there, they are protecting the entire platform. It's right there in the pictures and the text.

Hell, look at the previous page (I hadn't looked at it closely)


You can clearly see that it's a giant bubble around the execution platform. The shockwave is blocked not by their palms, it's blocked well before it comes in contact with them. I'm sorry...you cannot argue against that panel. It's a force field. The shockwave is stopping over 50 feet away from their hands.

(damn, that panel really wins me this argument, lol. No hard feelings ;)
 

Hrathgrath

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I agree, both points are valid, so I won't say i'm 100% right. And by me saying haki "changed" what I mean is Oda hadn't fully defined it pre-timeskip. Post time skip he really focused on it as the most important part of New World fights, so it got fleshed out more. And what I think is he subtly changed the armament haki to make it more versatile in fights. It shifted from a type of force field to something that is offensive as well as defensive. It wasn't a drastic change, but it was enough of one that I think he shifted his plans for it, just a little.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



Yeah, your explanation for the blocking of White Beards shock wave just doesn't work. If it can't be imbued on non-physical things, them sticking their hands out on top of the giant platform will not effect the shock wave 50 feet below them on the bottom of the platform. they aren't just protecting themselves there, they are protecting the entire platform. It's right there in the pictures and the text.

Hell, look at the previous page (I hadn't looked at it closely)


You can clearly see that it's a giant bubble around the execution platform. The shockwave is blocked not by their palms, it's blocked well before it comes in contact with them. I'm sorry...you cannot argue against that panel. It's a force field. The shockwave is stopping over 50 feet away from their hands.

(damn, that panel really wins me this argument, lol. No hard feelings ;)
I’ve got to agree on this thing with the platform.. @HP If they were just using their palms to stop it it would still hit everywhere that their palms weren’t. If it were a wall I could see them protecting an area like that with their palms, but it’s a pressure wave (in theory of course) so it looks to me like instead of blocking a wall they used a “wall” to block the wave.
 

roggie

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Its time to let it go HP. You did a good job making your point. You both did. And in many aspects both theories were equally possible, but the quake thing leaves no doubt: haki has changed. And you know what? We are fine with it. You should let yourself be fine with it too.
 

Hrathgrath

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Its time to let it go HP. You did a good job making your point. You both did. And in many aspects both theories were equally possible, but the quake thing leaves no doubt: haki has changed. And you know what? We are fine with it. You should let yourself be fine with it too.
I am with HP in the sense that I don’t think it’s changed. We just haven’t seen that specific technique used since Marineford. That’s not to say it’s gone altogether, just that we haven’t seen a haki user of the caliber that can perform it since then. On the area of effect thing we disagree, but I think it’s evolved (story-wise) not changed. And by evolved I mean Oda has shown us more about it, not changed something that was aLready set.
 
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