One Piece General SBS Discussion Thread

kkck

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Punk Hazard's "SAD" is a liquid that mixes the lineage factors of various animals.

It seems that the Lineage Factor is indeed just another term for DNA, and SAD is merely the result of DNA extraction.

According to Shinobu, only 10% of SMILE fruits work because the formula is incomplete. But why does the failed ones make a person smile permanently?

"Dressrosa's "SMILE" factory allows plants to absorb SAD, and grow up with peculiar patterns. One tenth of the fruit imported to Wano Country can give animal abilities. That is to say, it has nothing to do with genuine "devil fruit".

Does this mean that despite the similarity, SMILE nature is completely different from regular Devil Fruits?

If that's the case, then they are essentially fake Devil Fruits.

"and the lineage factor can only be extracted from existing creatures, so any "mythical zoan", "logia" or "paramecia" abilities cannot be produced.

This imply that Mythical Zoans are creatures that don't exist, meaning that something like a phoenix doesn't exist in One Piece world.
Those were pretty much my own takeaways as well. Maybe there is enough wiggle room in there to make the case that case that mythical zoans are creatures that they don't know if they ever existed. Kaido's fruit is still a bit weird though. Since dragons did in fact exist in one piece. Maybe his specific variety of dragon is the one that didn't exist hence the mythical bit.


I also think this SBS hints at something bigger. We know caesar used existing DNA for his smiles. Vegapunk also used kaido's DNA to form his dragon fruit which he still regarded as a failure (which worked much better than kaido's smiles). So... I think this hints at technology back in the day being so advanced that they could create or write lineage factors pretty much from scratch. Obviously there most devil fruits can't be based on living creatures in general. So the alternative would be that they could make mutations they wanted. It's possible zoans and ancient zoans were based on existing dna though. In this context its also possible that regardless of whether mythical creatures existed or not, since they couldn't find any of their dna they simply wrote it from scratch to make mythical zoans.
 

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So Vegapunk managed to sort out the lineage factor extraction from Mythical at the very least, meaning that the fruit Momo ate was actually one created by Vegapunk, not Ceasar, hence why the CP0 agent was a bit scared of it, as even if it's an artificial fruit, Momo can likely use all the powers that Kaidou has in his Dragon form.
 

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Those were pretty much my own takeaways as well. Maybe there is enough wiggle room in there to make the case that case that mythical zoans are creatures that they don't know if they ever existed. Kaido's fruit is still a bit weird though. Since dragons did in fact exist in one piece. Maybe his specific variety of dragon is the one that didn't exist hence the mythical bit.
It's a story about a fish turning into a dragon.

We also have Sengoku's fruit, which allows him to turn into a giant Buddha statue.

I think "mythical" stands for "fictional" in this case.

This also means that Zoans aren't too different from Paramecia, which has weird stuff like a person transforming their hands into scissors.

I wonder why then bother changing Katakuri's fruit from Logia to Paramecia.
 

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Katakuri is a Paramecia, but he's only special because he has a Logia feature which is intangibility. Logia are natural or related to nature as well as also Intangible. Mochi isn't nature based, but is intangible, thus why he's a special Paramecia.

If we had a character that was literally ice cream, they'd be a special Paramecia since it's not nature based, but isn't completely solid/is intangible.

So... I think this hints at technology back in the day being so advanced that they could create or write lineage factors pretty much from scratch. Obviously there most devil fruits can't be based on living creatures in general. So the alternative would be that they could make mutations they wanted.
Caesar can only make DFs based on existing creatures. That's the limit of his abilities.

Vegapunk has exceeded that and can make DFs out of other DFs, thus why Momonosuke literally has the same DF as Kaido. Looks like they also have to be captured, so Vegapunk could potentially recreate someone with Marco's DF if he can get their DNA.

He probably can't recreate Logia DFs, but he can understand the properties of light and create lasers which would be the only thing that explain why even Franky can make lasers which he copied from Vegapunk; the Pacifista shoot lasers out of outlets which implies he's just manipulating lights, and not producing light or turning to light like Kizaru. Doesn't look like he can just recreate Logia powers or Paramecia powers.

Seems he's limited to biological replication such as cloning, and any sort of Zoan whether mythical or Ancient. Doesn't look like he can recreate Logia powers without understanding the physics like light which is probably the limit of his science, and he probably couldn't replicate Akainu's DF since that can't logically be replicated since Magma can't be manipulated the way Light can.
 

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Caesar can only make DFs based on existing creatures. That's the limit of his abilities.
That's... more or less what I said right? And technically this is also the limit of vegapunk's abilities as well (so far).
Vegapunk has exceeded that and can make DFs out of other DFs, thus why Momonosuke literally has the same DF as Kaido. Looks like they also have to be captured, so Vegapunk could potentially recreate someone with Marco's DF if he can get their DNA.
Agreed, but I think there is a caveat here. The framing in the series is that vegapunk took kaido's lineage factor and used it to create a devil fruit. I think there is enough wiggle room in there that vegapunk isn't limited to replicating devil fruits. If the key element here is the lineage factor it could potentially apply to any lineage factor he can get his hands on.
He probably can't recreate Logia DFs, but he can understand the properties of light and create lasers which would be the only thing that explain why even Franky can make lasers which he copied from Vegapunk; the Pacifista shoot lasers out of outlets which implies he's just manipulating lights, and not producing light or turning to light like Kizaru. Doesn't look like he can just recreate Logia powers or Paramecia powers.
Yeah, this is pretty much what i had in mind when it comes to creating lineage factors from scratch. When it comes to zoans the lineage factor is readily available. But what about mythical zoans? or paramecia? or logias. There is no sample dna to copy to harvest and produce a bara bara fruit for instance. Evidence is lacking of course there is at least a distinct possibility that they got to a point that they could actually just create lineage factors. There are other possibilities of course.
Seems he's limited to biological replication such as cloning, and any sort of Zoan whether mythical or Ancient. Doesn't look like he can recreate Logia powers without understanding the physics like light which is probably the limit of his science, and he probably couldn't replicate Akainu's DF since that can't logically be replicated since Magma can't be manipulated the way Light can.
Possibly? We know vegapunk sampled kaido's lineage factor and created an artificial dragon fruit... But at the moment we have no specific reason to believe he could or couldn't have done that with non zoan fruits. As for the light bit, agreed. It's extremely likely kizaru provided a rather unique opportunity to study light and its properties hence leading to technology that would allow for sci fi lasers. Akainu's fruit is probably simply less relevant because in OP lava is probably readily available via volcanoes or powerful enough ovens. And a lava gun is probably not all that practical in general. Other fruits probably have some mind bending implications for science.... Aokiji and his ability to generate cold, brook's chill of the underworld, big mom's manipulation of lifespan...
 

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I think there is enough wiggle room in there that vegapunk isn't limited to replicating devil fruits. If the key element here is the lineage factor it could potentially apply to any lineage factor he can get his hands on.
I'm not saying otherwise, assumed that would be pretty much standard presumption given that this is what Caesar is doing and is limited to. Vegapunk is superior, so we know he can extract DNA from any animal and make it a power too. Vegapunk was the one who discovered lineage factor, so we know he could do that easily.

Yeah, this is pretty much what i had in mind when it comes to creating lineage factors from scratch. When it comes to zoans the lineage factor is readily available. But what about mythical zoans? or paramecia? or logias. There is no sample dna to copy to harvest and produce a bara bara fruit for instance. Evidence is lacking of course there is at least a distinct possibility that they got to a point that they could actually just create lineage factors. There are other possibilities of course.
Mythical Zoans are just Zoans. They're beasts who likely have a specific DNA type or Lineage factor, so I don't see why. Kaido after-all is a Mythical Zoan whom has been replicated.

For Paramecia and Logia, it is impossible it seems which is why the only ability replicated to date is Kizaru's light. It's not even a replication of an ability, it's more like he learnt the properties of light and created artificial lasers. If he could do beyond that, Kuma shouldn't be shooting lasers, but rather turning into light like Kizaru, but he's more or less using the same technology as Franky it seems.

Highly doubt he could recreate the Bara Bara no Mi or any such ability. Those aren't things with DNA/Lineage factor which is why we have Artificial lights, not DF Lights.

It seems his ability is literally limited to biological creatures.

Other fruits probably have some mind bending implications for science.... Aokiji and his ability to generate cold, brook's chill of the underworld, big mom's manipulation of lifespan...
Highly doubt the underworld or Big Mom's lifespan ability can be recreated, those are pretty vague abilities.

He could probably replicate fire like flamethrowers, but I highly doubt he can go beyond those

But at the moment we have no specific reason to believe he could or couldn't have done that with non zoan fruits.


We kind of do. There's literally been 0 hint. It could be developed in future, but highly unlikely. We can go back to many previous examples for Zoans.

Spandam's Sword is a Sword that ate the Zou Zou no Mi (probably a perfect SMILE). Seemingly can bring inanimate objects to life somehow with supposedly lineage factors.

At this moment, it seems he's limited to biological abilities and not Paramecia or Logia abilities. The moment this happened, the WG is essentially invincible.
 

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Drake's speech implies that the Pacifistas lasers are not just similar to Kizaru, but are in fact linked to his Devil Fruits.

It seems replicating non-biological abilities isn't as simple, and maybe some device is required as an intermediate for Kizaru's lasers.
 

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Mythical Zoans are just Zoans. They're beasts who likely have a specific DNA type or Lineage factor, so I don't see why. Kaido after-all is a Mythical Zoan whom has been replicated.

For Paramecia and Logia, it is impossible it seems which is why the only ability replicated to date is Kizaru's light. It's not even a replication of an ability, it's more like he learnt the properties of light and created artificial lasers. If he could do beyond that, Kuma shouldn't be shooting lasers, but rather turning into light like Kizaru, but he's more or less using the same technology as Franky it seems.

Highly doubt he could recreate the Bara Bara no Mi or any such ability. Those aren't things with DNA/Lineage factor which is why we have Artificial lights, not DF Lights.

It seems his ability is literally limited to biological creatures.

Highly doubt the underworld or Big Mom's lifespan ability can be recreated, those are pretty vague abilities.

He could probably replicate fire like flamethrowers, but I highly doubt he can go beyond those





We kind of do. There's literally been 0 hint. It could be developed in future, but highly unlikely. We can go back to many previous examples for Zoans.

Spandam's Sword is a Sword that ate the Zou Zou no Mi (probably a perfect SMILE). Seemingly can bring inanimate objects to life somehow with supposedly lineage factors.

At this moment, it seems he's limited to biological abilities and not Paramecia or Logia abilities. The moment this happened, the WG is essentially invincible.
My interpretation of devil fruits and lineage factor is that all devil fruits actually work via pretty much the same mechanisms. So zoans of all types have have lineage factors of their corresponding animal, whether modern, ancient or mythical. Then you have paramecia fruits... which also have lineage factors corresponding to their superhuman abilities. And then logias... with nature system lineage factors. So within the context of the series there absolutely is a ruberman lineage factor or a darkness lineage factor.

When it comes to mythical zoans and non mythical zoans.. Mythical zoans are most likely simply creatures which do not exist in nature within OP. Not even currently, just in general. So their lineage factor simply couldn't have come from nature. That's why in my previous posts I make the point that whoever created devil fruits had not only extraordinary knowledge of lineage factors but also the capacity to manipulate and maybe even create it from scratch. When it comes to real devil fruits it is entirely possible that the lineage factor used to make zoans simply came from living animals and fossils. But there is nowhere paramecia or logia lineage factors could come from other than a laboratory. Unless such creatures existed at some point... and all fruits are actually zoans.
 

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That's why in my previous posts I make the point that whoever created devil fruits had not only extraordinary knowledge of lineage factors
Oh I see where you're coming from. You're assuming or speaking from the perspective that DFs are created.

I personally doubt they're artificial, I think they're probably just natural occurrences. If Vegapunk had created DFs other than Zoan based ones, I might say it's possible and probably they're all artificial. So far, he's been limited to just Zoan and he's said to be centuries ahead of his time in science. I guess we'll see in time.
 

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Is the most popular theory still that DF's come from the TREASURE TREE ADAM or the SUNLIGHT TREE EVE?
 

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Oh I see where you're coming from. You're assuming or speaking from the perspective that DFs are created.

I personally doubt they're artificial, I think they're probably just natural occurrences. If Vegapunk had created DFs other than Zoan based ones, I might say it's possible and probably they're all artificial. So far, he's been limited to just Zoan and he's said to be centuries ahead of his time in science. I guess we'll see in time.
It's not impossible that they are a natural occurrence but paramecia abilities specifically make me lean towards devil fruits being fabricated however many years ago by a civilization with extremely advanced technology. I can buy zoans being a product of nature. Mythical zoans are a bigger stretch since they don't appear to actually exist in nature but sure, why not. Maybe whichever tree devil fruits originated from had one too many gallons of acid. And a second bad trip had it crap out the ability to turn into fire. But then you get into the really weirdly specific stuff like the kilo or ton fruit. Or wapo's fruit that creates the absurdly convenient wapometal. Or baby 5's fruit which turns you into a variety of man made weapons. Now, it's not outright impossible that within OP there is a natural process which creates devil fruits and is also able to generate devil fruits based on man made constructs and concepts. But if you consider that:

1.- Devil fruits basically alter the user's DNA and turns them into mutants.
2.- Lineage factor can be harvested
3.- Devil fruits are replicable (though in need of tweaking)
4.- Devil fruits can turn people into things which do not exist in nature.

There is at least a very solid case to be made that devil fruits themselves are a man made product.
 

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It's not impossible that they are a natural occurrence but paramecia abilities specifically make me lean towards devil fruits being fabricated however many years ago by a civilization with extremely advanced technology. I can buy zoans being a product of nature. Mythical zoans are a bigger stretch since they don't appear to actually exist in nature but sure, why not. Maybe whichever tree devil fruits originated from had one too many gallons of acid. And a second bad trip had it crap out the ability to turn into fire. But then you get into the really weirdly specific stuff like the kilo or ton fruit. Or wapo's fruit that creates the absurdly convenient wapometal. Or baby 5's fruit which turns you into a variety of man made weapons. Now, it's not outright impossible that within OP there is a natural process which creates devil fruits and is also able to generate devil fruits based on man made constructs and concepts. But if you consider that:

1.- Devil fruits basically alter the user's DNA and turns them into mutants.
2.- Lineage factor can be harvested
3.- Devil fruits are replicable (though in need of tweaking)
4.- Devil fruits can turn people into things which do not exist in nature.

There is at least a very solid case to be made that devil fruits themselves are a man made product.
It's difficult to come to an answer as being man-made.

Take Brulee's fruit which literally takes you into another dimension.
Or, Mont D'or who takes you into some world of books, or another dimension.
An ability that controls souls.
An ability that allows one to see everything like Viola's ability.
A Ghost ability like Perona.

If all abilities were just magnet based, light based, and such, could argue they're man made.

However, we have abilities that are magical, far more magical than most DFs.

An ability that takes you into a different dimension or ability that turns you into a toy and erases your existence or an ability that allows one to draw things into existence compared to Light DF. While the light is magical, it can be said to be a construct of man, but these seem to be even more outside the real of man made. They seem outright magical even though a DF in itself is magical.

Given that you can have an ability that can literally take you to a location one wants to go (Kuma's ability) or Kanjuro's ability which can make art real, it's literally taking supernatural and metaphysical concepts and making them reality.
I would say they're possibly natural in the sense of being supernatural kind of like Haki being a supernatural power or this VOAT ability that allows one to telecommunicate telepathically, or an ability like Sharley's (seems to be a real magical ability, not sure it's confirmed if she had a DF) to literally predict the future and see events that will definitely take place.
I think there will be somethings that will just be supernaturally natural, and maybe DFs will fall into that category within the world of One Piece.

Could argue for both cases whether natural or man-made, but it's difficult to just settle for one I guess. Perhaps, we've been given hints that we've missed.
 

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It's difficult to come to an answer as being man-made.

Take Brulee's fruit which literally takes you into another dimension.
Or, Mont D'or who takes you into some world of books, or another dimension.
An ability that controls souls.
An ability that allows one to see everything like Viola's ability.
A Ghost ability like Perona.

If all abilities were just magnet based, light based, and such, could argue they're man made.

However, we have abilities that are magical, far more magical than most DFs.

An ability that takes you into a different dimension or ability that turns you into a toy and erases your existence or an ability that allows one to draw things into existence compared to Light DF. While the light is magical, it can be said to be a construct of man, but these seem to be even more outside the real of man made. They seem outright magical even though a DF in itself is magical.

Given that you can have an ability that can literally take you to a location one wants to go (Kuma's ability) or Kanjuro's ability which can make art real, it's literally taking supernatural and metaphysical concepts and making them reality.
I would say they're possibly natural in the sense of being supernatural kind of like Haki being a supernatural power or this VOAT ability that allows one to telecommunicate telepathically, or an ability like Sharley's (seems to be a real magical ability, not sure it's confirmed if she had a DF) to literally predict the future and see events that will definitely take place.
I think there will be somethings that will just be supernaturally natural, and maybe DFs will fall into that category within the world of One Piece.

Could argue for both cases whether natural or man-made, but it's difficult to just settle for one I guess. Perhaps, we've been given hints that we've missed.
Ah, then this is also another instance where our assumptions are different. My general idea here is that magic in general does not exist within OP. Abilities, however supernatural, can ultimate be observed, measured, recorded, experimented on and ultimately even replicated. It'd also be weird if some devil fruits work by lineage factor and turn people into mutants and others are simply magic and turn people into... magic.
 

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My general idea here is that magic in general does not exist within OP. Abilities, however supernatural, can ultimate be observed, measured, recorded, experimented on and ultimately even replicated. It'd also be weird if some devil fruits work by lineage factor and turn people into mutants and others are simply magic and turn people into... magic.
This I disagree with.

Ability to teleport into the future? That doesn't seem like something that can be man-made. There's not even such technology.

Haki is not man-made, it's just a supernatural power people possess. Observation Haki can see the future briefly, that's not something science can circumvent, that's a supernatural ability.

Devil fruits just offer powers, it doesn't necessarily alter people, it just gives them powers.

If Kaido dies, he's not dying as a Dragon, he's dying as a human or whatever species he belongs to, and his DF will go to another fruit.

If DFs permanently altered people, then Blackbeard suppressing DF powers completely would mean his touch equalled death.

There are things in the series that are just Supernatural.

Klauberterman repaired Merry, some myth that manifests when a ship is loved, that's Supernatural.

Merry spoke to the SHs and actually came to save the SHs from Enies Lobby, that's Supernatural.

There's definitely a Supernatural aspect of the story, not everything has a scientific basis.
 

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This I disagree with.

Ability to teleport into the future? That doesn't seem like something that can be man-made. There's not even such technology.

Haki is not man-made, it's just a supernatural power people possess. Observation Haki can see the future briefly, that's not something science can circumvent, that's a supernatural ability.

Devil fruits just offer powers, it doesn't necessarily alter people, it just gives them powers.

If Kaido dies, he's not dying as a Dragon, he's dying as a human or whatever species he belongs to, and his DF will go to another fruit.

If DFs permanently altered people, then Blackbeard suppressing DF powers completely would mean his touch equalled death.

There are things in the series that are just Supernatural.

Klauberterman repaired Merry, some myth that manifests when a ship is loved, that's Supernatural.

Merry spoke to the SHs and actually came to save the SHs from Enies Lobby, that's Supernatural.

There's definitely a Supernatural aspect of the story, not everything has a scientific basis.
This is more of an issue of how oda ultimately decides to handle science/magic/supernatural in the series. Some authors handle magic in such a way that it simply is what it is, incomprehensible, mystical, boundless... Others frame it in such a way that "magic" is a natural part the world that can be understood and studied. More or less the same can apply to magic and ki depending on the series. In some cases it's the same though nowdays I think more authors are making distinctions between magic and ki (dragon ball in a few instances, negima...).

In regards to devil fruits, if they are pretty much modifying your lineage factor (dna) and turning people into mutants then I don't see why they would be considered supernatural. You'd simply have a dragon mutant or a soul manipulating mutant. Otherwise what you'd have is basically devil fruits which make you into a mutant and others that make you magic... I think that's a weird scenario.

Haki wise, I don't think there is anything that actually stops oda from framing it as something that can be studied and understood. It's something that few people manifest but actually omnipresent in living creatures. Add to that, if devil fruits ultimately make people into mutants then you actually have a number of mutants that can deal with an interact with souls. Moria with his shadow fruit, big mom and lifespans, brook and the chill of the underworld.... Klauberterman could end up being relevant to any of those. Or just be magic....
 

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In regards to devil fruits, if they are pretty much modifying your lineage factor (dna) and turning people into mutants then I don't see why they would be considered supernatural.
That doesn't necessarily stop it from being supernatural.

This is more of an issue of how oda ultimately decides to handle science/magic/supernatural in the series. Some authors handle magic in such a way that it simply is what it is, incomprehensible, mystical, boundless... Others frame it in such a way that "magic" is a natural part the world that can be understood and studied. More or less the same can apply to magic and ki depending on the series. In some cases it's the same though nowdays I think more authors are making distinctions between magic and ki (dragon ball in a few instances, negima...).

In regards to devil fruits, if they are pretty much modifying your lineage factor (dna) and turning people into mutants then I don't see why they would be considered supernatural. You'd simply have a dragon mutant or a soul manipulating mutant. Otherwise what you'd have is basically devil fruits which make you into a mutant and others that make you magic... I think that's a weird scenario.

Haki wise, I don't think there is anything that actually stops oda from framing it as something that can be studied and understood. It's something that few people manifest but actually omnipresent in living creatures. Add to that, if devil fruits ultimately make people into mutants then you actually have a number of mutants that can deal with an interact with souls. Moria with his shadow fruit, big mom and lifespans, brook and the chill of the underworld.... Klauberterman could end up being relevant to any of those. Or just be magic....
Nothing does.

Simply depends on the author. He can choose to leave it to magic even within the context of a magical setting relative to reality and he could have an explanation. There nonetheless are things in the series that are just straight up supernatural until we're told otherwise I guess.
 

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Nika = Joyboy = Luffy!


Nika is the name of the alias Joyboy. He ate the gomu gomu no mi and fought with Zou and Wano and other allies against the world government. They lost. He didn't hold his promise to help the fishfolk live over the surface. The world goverment and some more know about joyboy/Nika and that he will come back eventually. Like kaido said: gomu gomu no? You couldn't be joyboy either. They are afraid about it. That's why the 5 elders ask IM-Sama if he decided over an new light to be erased from this world. They are afraid that the light could be the sun. So why was ace executed? Cause they were afraid that he could be Joyboy. Why was fishertiger crew named sunpirates? I can imagine that after he saved so many lifes of slaves, the slaves thought he is the sun-god. I think many slaves know about Nika the sun-god.
The - D. - Dawn - sun- light they all are set together. It's like a bigger puzzle.

Since the story is going to end soon, oda needs to give us more details about that.

Be happy about each detail and be sad cause we are going near the end..
 

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Is the most popular theory still that DF's come from the TREASURE TREE ADAM or the SUNLIGHT TREE EVE?
yes its possible but you would expect the disappeared DF to come from that tree again, no? Or perhaps the adam tree doesnt exist anymore in the same form.
 

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I'm not saying otherwise, assumed that would be pretty much standard presumption given that this is what Caesar is doing and is limited to. Vegapunk is superior, so we know he can extract DNA from any animal and make it a power too. Vegapunk was the one who discovered lineage factor, so we know he could do that easily.



Mythical Zoans are just Zoans. They're beasts who likely have a specific DNA type or Lineage factor, so I don't see why. Kaido after-all is a Mythical Zoan whom has been replicated.

For Paramecia and Logia, it is impossible it seems which is why the only ability replicated to date is Kizaru's light. It's not even a replication of an ability, it's more like he learnt the properties of light and created artificial lasers. If he could do beyond that, Kuma shouldn't be shooting lasers, but rather turning into light like Kizaru, but he's more or less using the same technology as Franky it seems.

Highly doubt he could recreate the Bara Bara no Mi or any such ability. Those aren't things with DNA/Lineage factor which is why we have Artificial lights, not DF Lights.

It seems his ability is literally limited to biological creatures.



Highly doubt the underworld or Big Mom's lifespan ability can be recreated, those are pretty vague abilities.

He could probably replicate fire like flamethrowers, but I highly doubt he can go beyond those





We kind of do. There's literally been 0 hint. It could be developed in future, but highly unlikely. We can go back to many previous examples for Zoans.

Spandam's Sword is a Sword that ate the Zou Zou no Mi (probably a perfect SMILE). Seemingly can bring inanimate objects to life somehow with supposedly lineage factors.

At this moment, it seems he's limited to biological abilities and not Paramecia or Logia abilities. The moment this happened, the WG is essentially invincible.
From which chapter is the Image above?
 
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