One Piece Mega Convo Thread, the 1st Chapter

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

You can show the example of Alabasta with Smoker, Ace and Luffy but this is not a viable one for me because of the kairouseki sword. The kairouseki sword prevent the probability of that example from being 100 % sure : that is an undeniable thing. Moreover, we do not see after if they had real damages/injures from that (see the Kizaru/Apoo case at the end of this post that could also considers this event).
Personally, I think he is totally unvalid because of that and that does not make an example. Anyway, even if that example would work, zerocooldx has shown you a 100 % valid counter-example : a logia attacked by surprised (here Ki Zaru) has not been really injured : that definitely means your postulate is not an undeniable truth.

You really should write smaller posts. I just flew through it, and frankly, you could have made it shorter.

Kairouseki sword? Smoker has a kairouseki tipped jutte. That means he has a small sea stone on the tip of his weapon. That's not the reason why Luffy was able to tackle both him and Ace. Especially because Luffy never touched the tip, nor did Smoker, nor did Ace.
Sure, Ace and Smoker didn't seem to have much damage from that. Check how Usopp got his head smashed with a hammer by one of cat pirates and stayes alive. Check almost any fight.

I though it was clear enough that logias can transform into their element at this point. It's not like they are in a constant elemental state. That would mean that they can't function normally. Enel would electrocute anyone he touches, Ace would burn anyone he touches, and so on.

---

In the second case, the body of the logia suffers the movement of the attack normally. That is what happened with Ki Zaru when he was surprised by Apoo's attack. He said himself he did not see the attack coming, so, he could not have turned into the logia mode when he was hit. If you do not believe that, you can see the difference between the Kizaru-Apoo case and the others.

Kizaru couldn't avoid the attack. He was surprised enough to get hit with it, but it didn't damage him because he was prepared. Same as when the bullet passed through his head. See? there's a different explanation.
Anime shows it well. You can see the yellow glow where he was cut. But, some of the people here don't take anime as an evidence.

That notice that in the second state the logia df still protects the logia user works because the logia user suffers a normal attack. His DF activated by himself to do his job (protect him), and not by Ki Zaru's own decision.

But of course, Kizaru could have been using his power all along.

 

[camil222]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

k stop debating everyone, its obvious that they cannot change from a form to another form. like i dont even know why you would think they can. i think it was clear to everyone and clear in the manga that logia possesses the body of an element and its obvious that they are permanently cursed with that power. i dont even know why you guys are arguing over this, this is stupid.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

k stop debating everyone, its obvious that they cannot change from a form to another form. like i dont even know why you would think they can. i think it was clear to everyone and clear in the manga that logia possesses the body of an element and its obvious that they are permanently cursed with that power. i dont even know why you guys are arguing over this, this is stupid.

Telling one side of a debate that their side is stupid is not an effective way to end a debate. They already explained why the think that, primarily because of Luffy crashing into Smoker and Ace.

It seems possible that Oda just did that for comedic effect before Logia fruits were fully developed (were they even named prior to Enel? and when was Ace first shown to be able to disperse and reform himself Logia style?) OTOH, I have no problem believing that Logias do need to turn on their defenses, just not sure we have enough proof one way or the other.

 

[Imitorar]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

k stop debating everyone, its obvious that they cannot change from a form to another form. like i dont even know why you would think they can. i think it was clear to everyone and clear in the manga that logia possesses the body of an element and its obvious that they are permanently cursed with that power. i dont even know why you guys are arguing over this, this is stupid.

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[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

i think it was clear to everyone and clear in the manga that logia possesses the body of an element and its obvious that they are permanently cursed with that power. i dont even know why you guys are arguing over this, this is stupid.

Check the chapter 179 questions. The one regarding Ace. I guess it's obvious to anyone beside Oda that logias are constantly elemental. You should really e-mail him or something, and explain how it works.

Not to mention that Ace would burn every ship he gets on if he was constantly elemental.

EDIT: I thought Canadians were polite. Guess not

 

[zerocooldx]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Check the chapter 179 questions. The one regarding Ace. I guess it's obvious to anyone beside Oda that logias are constantly elemental. You should really e-mail him or something, and explain how it works.

Not to mention that Ace would burn every ship he gets on if he was constantly elemental.

EDIT: I thought Canadians were polite. Guess not

D: Question, Odacchi! Ace ate the Mera Mera Fruit so he can...

(1) "Can turn his body into flame"?

(2) "Can shoot flame from his body", which one is it?

O: The answer is (1). But his secret move "Hiken" (Fire Punch) is a skill where he raises his "firepower" and turns his fist into a huge flame, so it ends up looking more like (2).

What Oda means by that is actually very simple to understand, and you should re-read it. Its the very same thing as when Blackbeard unleashes his Darkness Torando/Suction attack, or when Kizaru fires off his Light Beam's. Or even when Ace fired off that giant fire ball, or even when Aokiji used Ice Time. When they used speical, and very powerful attacks, then of course they will need to release more of their power, which becomes visible. And i don't even know why i'm explaining this because Oda himself just explained it. <.<

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

That's a nice way to twist words to support your theory. Nothing more.

(1) "Can turn his body into flame"?
What part of this line puzzles you?

The part about raising firepower refers to how Ace can make a flame that is bigger then his fist. His fist becomes flame and he empowers it to grow bigger.

I guess you have an explanation of how Luffy and Ace managed to arm wrestle too? How Kizaru manages to kick people even though he is made of light? Light isn't solid.

 

[zerocooldx]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

That's a nice way to twist words to support your theory. Nothing more.

(1) "Can turn his body into flame"?
What part of this line puzzles you?

The part about raising firepower refers to how Ace can make a flame that is bigger then his fist. His fist becomes flame and he empowers it to grow bigger.

I guess you have an explanation of how Luffy and Ace managed to arm wrestle too? How Kizaru manages to kick people even though he is made of light? Light isn't solid.

Answered that a while ago actually without "twisting" what anyone has said to my advantage.

Luffie's kick did nothing to Aokiji, the guy didn't even change his facial expression. Who by the way is also made of ice, which is solid material, unlike light. Not to mentiuon the fact that one is an Admiral and to an Admiral Luffy is an ant. And for all we know when Luffy tackled Ace and Smoker could have been the first sign of Luffies Haki. And Blackbeard even stated that Luffie's Haki had gotten stronger without Luffy even using it. So when Luffy tackled Ace and Smoker that could have very well been the first time that Oda decided to show us Luffies awakening Haki. Or i can answer both questions by saying it could have simply been because it was "light contact", meaning that it was not strong enough to cause any real harm/damage to the user. Otherwise the Logia's would not be able to touch anything and they would be like ghosts and whats the point of Oda doing that right? Doesn't that sound rather "logical"? But i'm not going to make an entire theory on it, because then anyone can twist what we have "seen" to suit their own theory. As fun as theories are, the back drop is that everyone has em. So untill i see Oda directly telling us that Logia's go in and out of Logia mode i'm just not buying it.

 

[fastfonz]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

its a manga. its not perfect. I doubt any Logia will die in the manga because he forgot to activate his powers or something.

Likely what happened in the bar was one of two thing:

- Comic Relief
- Luffy display of Haki over food (not really...)

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Or i can answer both questions by saying it could have simply been because it was "light contact", meaning that it was not strong enough to cause any real harm/damage. Otherwise the Logia's would not be able to touch anything and they would be like ghosts and whats the point of Oda doing that right? Doesn't that sound rather "logical"? But i'm not going to make an entire theory on it, because then anyone can twist what we have "seen" to suit their own theory. As fun as theories are, the back drop is that everyone has em. So untill i see Oda directly telling us that Logia's go in and out of Logia mode i'm just not buying it.

Luffy and Ace arm wrestled. That was no light contact. Both put in enough strength to shatter the barrel which was below their elbows.

It's true, logias wouldn't be able to interact normally with the world around them if they were constantly in their elemental state.
Logia users can control how they use the element. So what's so weird about what I am saying?

Damn it, I'll go back to Aokiji. When Robin wanted to break his spine, he became ice to avoid the damage and he was shattered and then reformed again.
Later he fought Luffy, who kicked him hard enough to send him flying and yet Aokiji was still intact. If he was ice at that time, something would have cracked.

In my understanding, logias are like any paramecia who uses their power at will. Like Bellamy, who turns his legs into springs. His legs aren't springs at all times. Luffy on the other hand is constantly rubber, because his fruit is different.
Logia power wouldn't be that great if the users couldn't freely manipulate how they will use the power.

@fastfonz: All logias in One Piece are important characters. I doubt it that any of them would die in such a stupid way. But that alone doesn't mean that logias can't go on and off at will.

 

[zerocooldx]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Believe whatever you want to belive, but trying to convay your message/theory in a logical/proven manner to the rest of us, just isen't going to work. You are in this all by yourself.

 

[Akainu]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Nope he isn't.
I (and that's just my opinion, o.k.?) also think that Logia are still human and can turn into the element. The concept isn't hard to understand and there's not much to say either.
If they are taken by surprise and are not trained that well with their fruits they remain human and thus have a solid body.
If they trained their reflexes OR are aware of danger they may 'switch' to their respective elemental form.

 

[uchiha-Kakashi]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Maybe you need HAKI to control Logia fruits. i mean without Haki you can't shut the power down but with HAKI( =WILLPOWER) you can control it

 

[Goji]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Nope he isn't.
I (and that's just my opinion, o.k.?) also think that Logia are still human and can turn into the element. The concept isn't hard to understand and there's not much to say either.
If they are taken by surprise and are not trained that well with their fruits they remain human and thus have a solid body.
If they trained their reflexes OR are aware of danger they may 'switch' to their respective elemental form.

Exactly, that's what we were saying yesterday (yesterday for me anyways). ^^

But then they brought up the 'surprise' attack by Apoo which Kizaru said he didn't saw coming, got him cut in half, but still didn't phase him. Their point being: he shouldn't have been able to turn his power on since he didn't saw it coming.

Though you could say he either had already turned his elemental form on (since he knew he was in enemy territory, and possibly surrounded by a few rookies), or he, just like crocodile, automatically when the attack hit him turned into his elemental form by reflex. I believe the latter is the right explanation. It's obvious Kizaru has trained himself to switch on his powers at the slightest hint of danger and by reflex, possibly even more so than crocodile since we're talking about an admiral here.

This "turning on" the elemental powers is still the theory which seems the most logical to me. And it is the one I believe we were told by Oda while reading One Piece. I actually never doubted this theory 'till the other theory was brought up in this debate...

 

[zerocooldx]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

Maybe you need HAKI to control Logia fruits. i mean without Haki you can't shut the power down but with HAKI( =WILLPOWER) you can control it

But see theories like that just open up a whole weird can of worms <.< So when normal people "faint" under Haki what exactly happens or gets "turned off" in them? Not to mention the fact that we've never seen any Logia explicitly use Haki. The best thing to do is to avoid this type of discussion. Because things may be "implied" and people may "view" things differently to suit their own goals. But in the end if you can't literally prove something, the discussion just goes it circles. That is untill the proof pops up somewhere down the line and squashes the discussion. But the fact that some people think that everything that other people write about has to be 100% error free, logical and directly correspond to everything else in a fictional series, is very ironic.

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

I don't think that Haki is required to control logia fruit. Haki is more like realization of one's hidden potential. And logias work like other fruits. They are just more complex and offer more variety of attacks.

If anyone wants to avoid such discussions, he or she is certainly free to avoid them.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

In my understanding, logias are like any paramecia who uses their power at will. Like Bellamy, who turns his legs into springs. His legs aren't springs at all times. Luffy on the other hand is constantly rubber, because his fruit is different.
Logia power wouldn't be that great if the users couldn't freely manipulate how they will use the power.

@fastfonz: All logias in One Piece are important characters. I doubt it that any of them would die in such a stupid way. But that alone doesn't mean that logias can't go on and off at will.

I agree that they are not at their power all the time : that is obvious. Otherwise, they would not look like normal humans.
As you said, they can do as some paramecias : turn into their matter at will.
But I think that a main difference between these paramecias and the classical logias is that if a logia user forget to turn into his logia mode, the logia will still protect him anyway because it activates by himself.

For some of the paramecias, they must activate their power by themselves if they want their power to protect them but with the logias it can activate by himself if the logia users did not.
The body can be separated and be affected by the physic strenght on their body (like being pushed, cut etc ...) but the logia df automatically turns the logia user in his matter to prevent the damages : the Kizaru/Apoo case.
That is why logias users cannot die if they suffer by surprise a normal attack. That means the logia users cannot commit suicide with normal kind of attacks.

To resume, that means :
- they can turn into logia mode at will (we all agree about that)
- they cannot prevent the DF from turning them into logia mode if it is necessary for their defense even if they did not try/want that (my own additional idea : we have never seen a viable counter-example of that).

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

For some of the paramecias, they must activate their power by themselves if they want their power to protect them but with the logias it can activate by himself if the logia users did not.
The body can be separated and be affected by the physic strenght on their body (like being pushed, cut etc ...) but the logia df automatically turns the logia user in his matter to prevent the damages : the Kizaru/Apoo case.

To resume, that means :
- they can turn into logia mode at will (we all agree about that)
- they cannot prevent the DF from turning them into logia mode if it is necessary for their defense even if they did not try/want that (my own additional idea : we have never seen a viable counter-example of that).

I have to disagree with that. That would mean that the logia power has a mind of its own. We've seen some examples where logia didn't automatically turn into their element. When Luffy kicked Aokiji, for example. If you think that kick wasn't enough to break the ice, then I'm going to be severely disappointed.
Or is it that ice logia didn't recognize that kick as a threat? That's the hole in automatic defense theory. I won't bring up Ace and Smoker since it pointless to argue about it again. And the last thing I want is to have to read that it was a comic relief again.
So, is Aokiji getting kicked also a comic relief?

I get what you believe. But I'm more inclined to believe that logias evade damage consciously or through trained reflex than that there is an automated devil fruit response mechanism behind it.
After all, devil fruit power is just a tool. Body itself doesn't know when it is in danger. It's up to user to control it and to avoid the damage through conscious use of his power.

Kizaru seems to use his power constantly. Before Apoo, the bullets just went through his head. After, Usopp and Brooke couldn't harm him.
Anything that is different with Apoo is that he wasn't using physical attacks, but some sound waves. That may be the only reason why the attacks separated Kizaru's body parts instead of just going through him. That's probably the reason behind Kizaru's surprise.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

So, is Aokiji getting kicked also a comic relief?

He also didn't turn into ice when Luffy punched him after Zoro and Sanji disarmed him. He probably just didn't feel like it because he's a badass, but that still supports the changing state theory.

On Kizaru, the always logia theory would state the since Kizaru is permanently made of light, then even if he gets cut in half he's fine because the light will just come back together no matter what, right? How does that explain Crocodile? If Croc is no longer made of flesh and blood, but only sand, then how would he get hurt? If he did, why couldn't he just dry himself out and make himself anew from fresh sand the same way you claim Kizaru could? Did water/blood allow Luffy to hurt sand, or did it prevent Croc from properly becoming sand?

 

[Razh]

Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)

I think it prevented Crocodile from becoming sand. Yeah, it does sound stretchy that the small amount of water would prevent Crocodile from turning into sand, but that's what happened.