Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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Come on guys, downplaying Sanji is getting a bit ridiculous now. He was extremely fast in that instance. Also, now Oven is suddenly weaker than Doflamingo simply because?
Just give the guy credit and move on. No need to patronise each other over someone, who like Luffy, will grow significantly in fights and as the story progresses.
I wouldn't say it's downplaying Sanji, he's fast that much is a fact. The thing is he has all the elements that makes him literally invisible:
Oven doesn't know he's there.
He's focused on Pound who as far as he knows is the only threat or enemy there.
Are we really going to deny he had the advantage of being anonymous? along with everything else.
This is akin to looking at the scene here.
And then claiming that Aokiji and Luffy are of equal strength. That's what is easily done when things are taken out of context. Reality is Luffy is a superhuman who is strong enough to lift boulders and launch them like tennis balls; Aokiji on the other hand is a giant, but his weight compared to a boulder is nothing. Aokiji getting kicked and flying into the sky is somewhat of a given, it's not really showcasing Luffy as being as powerful as Aokiji and he really wasn't even trying to defend himself as he's not threatened.
Could look at this, and state that Cracker is faster than Luffy's Gear 4th when the reality or context is, Luffy wasn't expecting him because he thought he was defeated, and Cracker surprise attacked him.
We're ignoring all the facts and context regarding what Sanji did here. It's not like he was standing face to face with Oven, and Oven got speed blitzed. It was an attack that came while Oven was distracted and the people who didn't see Sanji were civilians and fodder.
Pudding saw, no one wants to acknowledge that even though she proved competent enough to take on Reiju all by herself. I get people are desperate to see Sanji do something and will use even the most insignificant example and completely take it out of context to construe it as what it isn't.
No one has had issues with Sanji's speed. Not even Judge who'd be considered the weakest of all the foes he's faced in WCI had no issues. Difference with this scene against every other, Sanji was centre of attention in all other scenes where his speed was irrelevant, and here, he's not even thought to be around.
The fundamental truth is, Oven doesn't know Sanji is around; everyone else who fought him and had no issues with his apparently "blinding" speed knew where he was and was their focus; this is a truth no one can remotely deny except in denial of course.
We don't know what would have happened if Oven was expecting an attack (and here I am only talking about seeing Sanji, not sensing him with observation...). He may or may not be able to see Sanji. There is nothing that indicates or disprove either. That's why I said we need another instance of Sanji's speed to tell exactly how fast he is.
Though seeing how Sanji did his rescue while Oven's punch still had not connected, I doubt that Oven would have been able to react. Or at best he would have managed to block but barely.
Oven doesn't know or have a clue he's there, otherwise, even Pudding would be in danger. As far as he knows, there's absolutely no reason for him to entertain Sanji's presence. So it really is clear Oven has no clue, as far as he's concerned, only Pound is an issue.
Fact is when Sanji fought with his godly speed again:
Judge - He was the centre of attention.
Daifuku - He was the centre of attention.
So, his speed is really nothing when they're aware he's their opponent. Even Oven was able to keep up with Pedro who possesses extraordinary speed.
This really is just a case of Sanji not being acknowledged as he's not known to be around. Nothing indicating his speed is anything exceptional against to the civilians and fodder.
Except you can find me one example where he was facing someone who knew he was their opponent since the New World, and he speed blitzed them into oblivion, perhaps. His speed is really nothing to gawp at in awe. I said it before, he'll probably get a power up, but this scene this chapter, it's nothing.
Not even Judge who'd be considered the weakest of all the foes he's faced in WCI had no issues. Difference with this scene against every other, Sanji was centre of attention in all other scenes where his speed was irrelevant, and here, he's not even thought to be around.
The fundamental truth is, Oven doesn't know Sanji is around; everyone else who fought him and had no issues with his apparently "blinding" speed knew where he was and was their focus; this is a truth no one can remotely deny except in denial of course.
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The fact is Pudding saw him.
Oven doesn't know or have a clue he's there, otherwise, even Pudding would be in danger. As far as he knows, there's absolutely no reason for him to entertain Sanji's presence. So it really is clear Oven has no clue, as far as he's concerned, only Pound is an issue.
Fact is when Sanji fought with his godly speed again:
Judge - He was the centre of attention.
Daifuku - He was the centre of attention.
So, his speed is really nothing when they're aware he's their opponent. Even Oven was able to keep up with Pedro who possesses extraordinary speed.
This really is just a case of Sanji not being acknowledged as he's not known to be around. Nothing indicating his speed is anything exceptional against to the civilians and fodder.
Except you can find me one example where he was facing someone who knew he was their opponent since the New World, and he speed blitzed them into oblivion, perhaps. His speed is really nothing to gawp at in awe. I said it before, he'll probably get a power up, but this scene this chapter, it's nothing.
OK, one question, if judge was the weakest he faced and couldn't win, how the hell did he beat yonji one on one, whom you implied was stronger than judge ?
If I try to answer that, then I'll say he wasn't using his full potential against judge like he did against yonji.
Against oven, unlike any other foe before now, he declared he wanted to move very fast and he did, so it won't be at the level it was against Judge.
I wouldn't say it's downplaying Sanji, he's fast that much is a fact. The thing is he has all the elements that makes him literally invisible:
Oven doesn't know he's there.
He's focused on Pound who as far as he knows is the only threat or enemy there.
Are we really going to deny he had the advantage of being anonymous? along with everything else.
This is akin to looking at the scene here.
And then claiming that Aokiji and Luffy are of equal strength. That's what is easily done when things are taken out of context. Reality is Luffy is a superhuman who is strong enough to lift boulders and launch them like tennis balls; Aokiji on the other hand is a giant, but his weight compared to a boulder is nothing. Aokiji getting kicked and flying into the sky is somewhat of a given, it's not really showcasing Luffy as being as powerful as Aokiji and he really wasn't even trying to defend himself as he's not threatened.
Could look at this, and state that Cracker is faster than Luffy's Gear 4th when the reality or context is, Luffy wasn't expecting him because he thought he was defeated, and Cracker surprise attacked him.
We're ignoring all the facts and context regarding what Sanji did here. It's not like he was standing face to face with Oven, and Oven got speed blitzed. It was an attack that came while Oven was distracted and the people who didn't see Sanji were civilians and fodder.
Pudding saw, no one wants to acknowledge that even though she proved competent enough to take on Reiju all by herself. I get people are desperate to see Sanji do something and will use even the most insignificant example and completely take it out of context to construe it as what it isn't.
No one has had issues with Sanji's speed. Not even Judge who'd be considered the weakest of all the foes he's faced in WCI had no issues. Difference with this scene against every other, Sanji was centre of attention in all other scenes where his speed was irrelevant, and here, he's not even thought to be around.
The fundamental truth is, Oven doesn't know Sanji is around; everyone else who fought him and had no issues with his apparently "blinding" speed knew where he was and was their focus; this is a truth no one can remotely deny except in denial of course.
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The fact is Pudding saw him.
Oven doesn't know or have a clue he's there, otherwise, even Pudding would be in danger. As far as he knows, there's absolutely no reason for him to entertain Sanji's presence. So it really is clear Oven has no clue, as far as he's concerned, only Pound is an issue.
Fact is when Sanji fought with his godly speed again:
Judge - He was the centre of attention.
Daifuku - He was the centre of attention.
So, his speed is really nothing when they're aware he's their opponent. Even Oven was able to keep up with Pedro who possesses extraordinary speed.
This really is just a case of Sanji not being acknowledged as he's not known to be around. Nothing indicating his speed is anything exceptional against to the civilians and fodder.
Except you can find me one example where he was facing someone who knew he was their opponent since the New World, and he speed blitzed them into oblivion, perhaps. His speed is really nothing to gawp at in awe. I said it before, he'll probably get a power up, but this scene this chapter, it's nothing.
None of these panels emphasized his speed like the recent chapter does, though. Oda does not waste panels. To waste panels just to show Sanji's movement in slow motion implies that it was not "nothing special". It may even be the first time Sanji shows such speed, which is why Oda took extra care to show it clearly, which he does whenever a strawhat uses a new feat or technique. Fact is he moved from his spot after Oven let Chiffon fall and started to punch, and he hit him before Oven landed a hit and while Chiffon was still in the air. If this is not considered impressive speed I don't know what does. That Oven was not aware of Sanji has nothing to do with anything. Since it does not disprove that Sanji was super fast, neither does it prove that Oven would have been able to react in time (or even see) Sanji's attack.
None of these panels emphasized his speed like the recent chapter does, though. Oda does not waste panels. To waste panels just to show Sanji's movement in slow motion implies that it was not "nothing special". It may even be the first time Sanji shows such speed, which is why Oda took extra care to show it clearly, which he does whenever a strawhat uses a new feat or technique. Fact is he moved from his spot after Oven let Chiffon fall and started to punch, and he hit him before Oven landed a hit and while Chiffon was still in the air. If this is not considered impressive speed I don't know what does. That Oven was not aware of Sanji has nothing to do with anything. Since it does not disprove that Sanji was super fast, neither does it prove that Oven would have been able to react in time (or even see) Sanji's attack.
It's only emphasised here because it's in front of fodder. Not saying the speed is not impressive, quote me on that if you want. I said that wouldn't have happened if Oven was focused on him.
Despite all this so-called speed you're making out as transcending space time, it's not. Judge had no issues seeing his movements, Daifuku didn't, it isn't anything. The speed technique he used is Soru, hell, we've seen Coby use it.
It's really insignificant. When he speed blitzes Oven, then sure, it's acknowledged. He did it against someone who has no idea he's going to be there or thinks he's there. Did it against an opponent who was already in motion to throw an attack against another opponent. Irrelevant, he had no issues with Pedro who is extremely fast, no idea why Sanji will be an issue.
Context, best you can do is ignore it for your own rhetoric. It's no less absurd than me taking the panel where Luffy kicked Aokiji in the air and claiming that Luffy has been Admiral tier since Pre-skip. Context.
Context again, Caesar defeated:
Luffy
Smoker
Tashigi
Robin
Franky
Lack of context would say Caesar is stronger than all these guys combined together. Context would tell you, no, it's nothing to do with Caesar being stronger, but the fact that Luffy and co. had no idea how his ability worked and his ability to create a vacuum to asphyxiate his opponents and induce unconsciousness gave him that momentary advantage to exploit. As soon as Luffy understood this in round 2, it was an easy fight.
Without context, anything can be misunderstood and blown out of proportion exactly like this Sanji "speed feat". It's really no different to using Soru against an asleep Katakuri or Perospero, it's only blinding to fodder, not to the core fighters.
It's only emphasised here because it's in front of fodder. Not saying the speed is not impressive, quote me on that if you want. I said that wouldn't have happened if Oven was focused on him.
Despite all this so-called speed you're making out as transcending space time, it's not. Judge had no issues seeing his movements, Daifuku didn't, it isn't anything. The speed technique he used is Soru, hell, we've seen Coby use it.
It's really insignificant. When he speed blitzes Oven, then sure, it's acknowledged. He did it against someone who has no idea he's going to be there or thinks he's there. Did it against an opponent who was already in motion to throw an attack against another opponent. Irrelevant, he had no issues with Pedro who is extremely fast, no idea why Sanji will be an issue.
Context, best you can do is ignore it for your own rhetoric. It's no less absurd than me taking the panel where Luffy kicked Aokiji in the air and claiming that Luffy has been Admiral tier since Pre-skip. Context.
Context again, Caesar defeated:
Luffy
Smoker
Tashigi
Robin
Franky
Lack of context would say Caesar is stronger than all these guys combined together. Context would tell you, no, it's nothing to do with Caesar being stronger, but the fact that Luffy and co. had no idea how his ability worked and his ability to create a vacuum to asphyxiate his opponents and induce unconsciousness gave him that momentary advantage to exploit. As soon as Luffy understood this in round 2, it was an easy fight.
Without context, anything can be misunderstood and blown out of proportion exactly like this Sanji "speed feat". It's really no different to using Soru against an asleep Katakuri or Perospero, it's only blinding to fodder, not to the core fighters.
So In which manga panel did Sanji use Soru before and people kept up or stopped him?? Because you’ve not shown any?? This is the only one we’ve seen, except you can show me one.
I’ll say this again. Sanji landed two kicks on Vergo. First one was when Vergo actually saw him coming. Even had time to ask who is this?? And second one in the chapter after this when Sanji just plainly hits him in the face. People also saying Sanji was loosing against Vergo need to realise that Vergo didn’t land any clean hit on Sanji on panel. He tried to kick Sanji Sanji blocked cracked his femur/tibia and evaded all other attacks after landing two hits and people down play Sanji still. Even smoker with his logia body found it hard to evade Vergo
Edit: also you talk of context and yet you use a picture of Sanji blocking an incoming attack and being overpowered by the said attack??
I think you confuse someone on offense and defence sometimes. Katakuri blocked G4 and still got thrown/so did doffy. So to apply the context you’re always Yapping on to that picture, Sanji was fast enough to block the attack.
And obviously, if that fight had continued in his state when Vergo wasn't even using Hardening.
Vergo wasn't threatened by Sanji at all.
When Sanji fights an opponent when he's not hiding, and actually dominates or speed blitzes them, sure. Even Judge has no issues with his speed, but don't think you're all that capable of using context, so there's really no reason to even continue this with you, lol.
OK, one question, if judge was the weakest he faced and couldn't win, how the hell did he beat yonji one on one, whom you implied was stronger than judge ?
If I try to answer that, then I'll say he wasn't using his full potential against judge like he did against yonji.
Against oven, unlike any other foe before now, he declared he wanted to move very fast and he did, so it won't be at the level it was against Judge.
He beat him because he was stronger than Yonji, that's really the only conclusion. No reason for him to not fight seriously. He only stopped fighting when he knew Zeff was truly hostage and when it was brought up.
The fact nonetheless is, no one has struggled with Sanji's speed. You don't have to struggle with your opponents speed to hit them. Lucci hit Luffy and Luffy hit Lucci, if Luffy was much stronger than Lucci, could very well have defeated Lucci as easily as Sanji probably defeated Yonji.
Pudding saw him, point everyone wants to ignore. Oven was preoccupied with Pound, point everyone wants to ignore. He attacked when Oven was too focused on Pound and blind sided.
It's like the concept of being preoccupied is incomprehensible.
Aokiji was preoccupied with Whitebeard - Oven preoccupied with Pound
Just because Jozu hit Aokiji who was preoccupied with Whitebeard is not proof Jozu is faster than Aokiji just as Sanji hitting Oven is not proof Sanji is faster than Oven.
Compounded by the fact that Sanji is tiny and Oven was facing up at Oven, he was blind-spotted so he literally couldn't see him coming. Different story if Sanji was directly in his field of vision.
With the logic being put forth, I guess people here have never walked into something or stepped on something significantly smaller than themselves when preoccupied or focused on something else.
He beat him because he was stronger than Yonji, that's really the only conclusion. No reason for him to not fight seriously. He only stopped fighting when he knew Zeff was truly hostage and when it was brought up.
The fact nonetheless is, no one has struggled with Sanji's speed. You don't have to struggle with your opponents speed to hit them. Lucci hit Luffy and Luffy hit Lucci, if Luffy was much stronger than Lucci, could very well have defeated Lucci as easily as Sanji probably defeated Yonji.
Pudding saw him, point everyone wants to ignore. Oven was preoccupied with Pound, point everyone wants to ignore. He attacked when Oven was too focused on Pound and blind sided.
It's like the concept of being preoccupied is incomprehensible.
Aokiji was preoccupied with Whitebeard - Oven preoccupied with Pound
Just because Jozu hit Aokiji who was preoccupied with Whitebeard is not proof Jozu is faster than Aokiji just as Sanji hitting Oven is not proof Sanji is faster than Oven.
Compounded by the fact that Sanji is tiny and Oven was facing up at Oven, he was blind-spotted so he literally couldn't see him coming. Different story if Sanji was directly in his field of vision.
With the logic being put forth, I guess people here have never walked into something or stepped on something significantly smaller than themselves when preoccupied or focused on something else.
I actually agree with you to an extent, personally I feel someone like oven would've seen the attack coming if his coo was on irrespective of whether he's much taller or not, the only reason why height or sight of view may even become relevant is because his coo was off and all he had was his eyes to see what's in front of him.
Still, I think that isn't related to how fast sanji moved, I'm not even interested in the kick, it's the multiple things that sanji did while oven was trying to hit pound, and also the fact he stated what he intends doing before doing it makes me feel he was faster in this instance compared to the judge fight, I get what you've been posting, most I agree with but speed part?, it'll be very difficult to convince me it wasn't that big a deal, it's still all good though, when everyone isn't agreeing, me like it.
I actually agree with you to an extent, personally I feel someone like oven would've seen the attack coming if his coo was on irrespective of whether he's much taller or not, the only reason why height or sight of view may even become relevant is because his coo was off and all he had was his eyes to see what's in front of him.
Still, I think that isn't related to how fast sanji moved, I'm not even interested in the kick, it's the multiple things that sanji did while oven was trying to hit pound, and also the fact he stated what he intends doing before doing it makes me feel he was faster in this instance compared to the judge fight, I get what you've been posting, most I agree with but speed part?, it'll be very difficult to convince me it wasn't that big a deal, it's still all good though, when everyone isn't agreeing, me like it.
He's a minister, he's feared and respected, there's no one else but Pound who would realistically step out of line and be a threat. As far as Cacao Island is concerned, it's a zone void of the SHs. The point is what should indicate that there were any other enemies besides Chiffon and Pound? Nothing.
I could take this panel and state that Sanji has trash Observation Haki because he wasn't aware that these fodder got into the Sunny and filled it up with gas just like some say Oven's Observation is trash for not detecting Sanji when even Katakuri couldn't home in on Luffy during the Wedding until he stupidly identified himself.
Looking at things contextually, there was no reason for Sanji to think anyone was on the ship (exactly like Oven), as far as they were concerned, they were all safe, they're all waiting to be served Lunch. There is such a thing as being caught by surprise attacks and it's usually the case when one isn't expecting to be ambushed or attacked by someone. It's nothing special.
Other point is, the smaller something is, the harder it is to notice and the bigger someone is, the greater their blind-spot. This is the height difference between Oven (standing at 4.92m) and Sanji (standing at 1.77m). He's 3 times taller, so of course Sanji attacking from underneath when he's facing upwards makes underneath an even greater blind spot.
No one is saying Sanji isn't fast, point is, he only hit Oven because Oven had his attention on Pound, compounded by the fact he was staring upwards which meant underneath was a huge blind-spot, and Sanji being just above knee height, Sanji was able to easily execute this, nothing to it. It's the same concept.
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I could look at this pane, and state where is Sanji's speed that is undetectable? Doesn't he care about Pudding being hit? I could use this and state Sanji is slow. I'm not saying he's slow, just looking at things in context. His speed has not been an issue for anyone.
Here he tries to save his family, he's running and he's easily stopped by Daifuku. He's fast, just not fast enough that any of these exceptional ministers would have a problem engaging him. All he did was blind-spot Oven, and Oven isn't exactly slow either if he's able to engage Pedro who is also very fast.
He's a minister, he's feared and respected, there's no one else but Pound who would realistically step out of line and be a threat. As far as Cacao Island is concerned, it's a zone void of the SHs. The point is what should indicate that there were any other enemies besides Chiffon and Pound? Nothing.
I could take this panel and state that Sanji has trash Observation Haki because he wasn't aware that these fodder got into the Sunny and filled it up with gas just like some say Oven's Observation is trash for not detecting Sanji when even Katakuri couldn't home in on Luffy during the Wedding until he stupidly identified himself.
Looking at things contextually, there was no reason for Sanji to think anyone was on the ship (exactly like Oven), as far as they were concerned, they were all safe, they're all waiting to be served Lunch. There is such a thing as being caught by surprise attacks and it's usually the case when one isn't expecting to be ambushed or attacked by someone. It's nothing special.
Other point is, the smaller something is, the harder it is to notice and the bigger someone is, the greater their blind-spot. This is the height difference between Oven (standing at 4.92m) and Sanji (standing at 1.77m). He's 3 times taller, so of course Sanji attacking from underneath when he's facing upwards makes underneath an even greater blind spot.
No one is saying Sanji isn't fast, point is, he only hit Oven because Oven had his attention on Pound, compounded by the fact he was staring upwards which meant underneath was a huge blind-spot, and Sanji being just above knee height, Sanji was able to easily execute this, nothing to it. It's the same concept.
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I could look at this pane, and state where is Sanji's speed that is undetectable? Doesn't he care about Pudding being hit? I could use this and state Sanji is slow. I'm not saying he's slow, just looking at things in context. His speed has not been an issue for anyone.
Here he tries to save his family, he's running and he's easily stopped by Daifuku. He's fast, just not fast enough that any of these exceptional ministers would have a problem engaging him. All he did was blind-spot Oven, and Oven isn't exactly slow either if he's able to engage Pedro who is also very fast.
OK, it's all about context and what Oda wants us to get, he would've just drawn sanji saving chiffon without him saying anything, his words in that panel adds meaning, it was a delicate situation that required him to be at his best, there's a difference if say - someone like luffy states I'm gonna punch you , if you compare that to - I'm gonna punch you so fast you won't even see me coming, are two different things, the words adds meaning.
Don't forget, the distance between ovens hand and pounds jaw was much smaller compared to the distance where sanji is at, before he could could land his punch, sanji covered the distance, got his kick, grabbed chiffon while she was still in mid air and disappeared, surely you can't compare that speed with the panel where Diafuku grabbed him.
Now I'm even doubting he can keep up to sanji even if he's aware simply because the punch he threw at pound wasn't that fast, if it was, sanji wouldn't have accomplished much.
At marineford, even luffy reacted to sengoku's blow by inflating even though he was focused on ace, he had good reflexes, I could be wrong about that tho as it's been long I read the arc.
OK, it's all about context and what Oda wants us to get, he would've just drawn sanji saving chiffon without him saying anything, his words in that panel adds meaning, it was a delicate situation that required him to be at his best, there's a difference if say - someone like luffy states I'm gonna punch you , if you compare that to - I'm gonna punch you so fast you won't even see me coming, are two different things, the words adds meaning.
Don't forget, the distance between ovens hand and pounds jaw was much smaller compared to the distance where sanji is at, before he could could land his punch, sanji covered the distance, got his kick, grabbed chiffon while she was still in mid air and disappeared, surely you can't compare that speed with the panel where Diafuku grabbed him.
Now I'm even doubting he can keep up to sanji even if he's aware simply because the punch he threw at pound wasn't that fast, if it was, sanji wouldn't have accomplished much.
At marineford, even luffy reacted to sengoku's blow by inflating even though he was focused on ace, he had good reflexes, I could be wrong about that tho as it's been long I read the arc.
He didn't say it to anyone, he didn't even direct it at Oven, it was pertaining to the general public and fodder around him. Oven and Pound are way too self-absorbed and interested in the person before them, everything else is not in vision.
The speed Sanji covered is great, not saying it isn't. The point is Daifuku not seeing him has nothing to do with Sanji being too fast, but simply being out of sight and being pre-occupied with Pound.
Like I said before, you're omitting context:
No acknowledgement there's no Intel regarding Sanji being in Cacao Island. BMP don't have a clue.
He's in a disguise as one of the chefs. Oven has seen the chefs, yet not spotted Sanji. No one's taking this into account because Sanji.
What reason is there for Oven to care about anyone but Pound when he's a minister whom no one would disrespect and more so since no enemy is around to his knowledge?
He was about to let the chefs go free besides Chiffon, is he secretly an ally of Sanji and merely faking? It's because Sanji is not noticed. There's absolutely no reason for Oven to be worried about anyone standing in his way.
The civilians?
His soldiers?
The chefs?
Pudding?
Absolutely no one.
No one has issues with his speed. If he was so fast, regardless of distance, Sanji should have been untouchable. It's a different story when he's not in line of sight or noticed, different story when he's centre of attention as seen in every fight or action based panel in this arc. Of course, it's ignored, lol.
Luffy and Sengoku, it's not remotely related to this, not even in context.
Well, you've said the distance he covered was great, as long as its better than good, I'm OK with that, I won't try to push my luck any further than this.
I guess more chapters will reveal more, but I must admit, he looked badass there than he did all arc.
No doubt, the distance covered is great, that's not up for contention unless someone hates Sanji. I personally don't tend to be a fan of any character in order to be objective. I just mean in relation to what happened, it's not like he speed-blitzed Oven.
If he did this to Oven while standing right in front of him, or Oven was aware of his presence or intent, I'd be without doubt impressed.
Definitely hold nothing against him, I think he'll become extremely powerful. Even the fact that we had Rayleigh telling us how Haki grows a lot more in battle is also relevant for Sanji. He might have lost quite a few and been in many circumstances that didn't favour him, but he will definitely get his time to shine. I think he'll get Hardened Armament either during this arc, during the end, or after this arc is done with.
What reason is there for Oven to care about anyone but Pound when he's a minister whom no one would disrespect and more so since no enemy is around to his knowledge?
Because he got kicked by someone else. With the kick, I’ve said it either indicates Sanji is really fast or oven was dumb not to use CoO. After he got kicked. Why did he not look for the person that kicked him. If I slap you from the back in a queue, you look back and want to know who slapped you right. And as we rightly saw he was ignorant of Sanji again, and he found chiffon, most likely with his CoO. My point is still that, he got kicked and never bothered to look for he attacker. Dumb/ CoO is bad.
Those people that invaded the ship did not attack Sanji. If they attacked Sanji Sanji woulda sensed. Filling a room with gas is not the same as kicking me in the face.
The height thing is bogus. At best I’ll admit a sneak attack. Once again, the kick was on his shoulder. No was I’m missing a very small person looking to kick me on my shoulder. And I don’t even have CoO.
Being anonymous is indeed an advantage among peers, however, if the person you are attacking has significantly better reflexes and speed, it doesn't really make a difference (if the margin isn't slightly different). It would be rare for someone to tag a serious Flash (off topic reference I know) even if they have the jump on him. Close to home, it would be hard for most to react to Kizaru as the guys fruit is ridiculously OP in terms of speed. Blueno could not match the superior speed of G2 even while knowing Luffy got faster and is the only enemy there.
Overall point behind all of that? Sanji showing that sort of speed is a good foundation for his serious fights. To me it is an impressive feat of speed, Sanji is not the Flash nor do I expect him to be. But his speed will be explored as Oda chose to highlight that in this chapter.
Hannibal, it's very hard for anyone to ignore the facts when they are slapping them on the face. Sanji himself states that he is going to use that opening to do what he did. It's a matter of appreciating what he did.
This is akin to looking at the scene here.
And then claiming that Aokiji and Luffy are of equal strength. That's what is easily done when things are taken out of context.
Could look at this, and state that Cracker is faster than Luffy's Gear 4th when the reality or context is, Luffy wasn't expecting him because he thought he was defeated, and Cracker surprise attacked him.
No not at all, Luffy did not speed blitz Aokiji (that would be an amazing scene though) as we understand the circumstances of their exchange - nor did Cracker do the same to Luffy. Yes in all instances awareness plays a part, however the circumstances are different. Both parties are within very close reach to each other in the examples you gave, Cracker only managed to chip Luffys arm because he counterattacked from a broken biscuit within immediate reach. Luffy also notices Cracker, nevertheless he was fast enough to avoid any significant damage.
The fundamental truth is, Oven doesn't know Sanji is around; everyone else who fought him and had no issues with his apparently "blinding" speed knew where he was and was their focus; this is a truth no one can remotely deny except in denial of course.
No one is ignoring that truth, it's blatantly referenced by Sanji himself. The fact is, it is an impressive speed feat to not only attack Cracker but do so while saving Chiffon within a negligible timeframe.
Yes Pudding noticed what Sanji did (her adorable nosebleed confirms that for anyone who has doubts), however one could interpret that as her simply knowing (through a process of elimination) that the only one there capable of doing that was Sanji.
It's weird that Oven didn't pick up Sanji even within close proximity.
“Year of Sanji” has turned into the Sanji hate/love fest. People should just sit back and enjoy the Manga. Sanji will be as strong or as weak or as fast or as slow as the plot requires.
I mean, he was overpowered by Daifuku. Daifuku was overpowered by Yonji. Yonji was fodderized by Sanji.
Sanji was also able to deflect a BM attack but was also overpowered by Judge.
Truth is, there just isn’t enough information yet and it certainly isn’t worth having 20 pages of hate being shot back and forth by everyone. Sanji is a strong character but not the strongest. Fair enough?
No doubt, the distance covered is great, that's not up for contention unless someone hates Sanji. I personally don't tend to be a fan of any character in order to be objective. I just mean in relation to what happened, it's not like he speed-blitzed Oven.
If he did this to Oven while standing right in front of him, or Oven was aware of his presence or intent, I'd be without doubt impressed.
Definitely hold nothing against him, I think he'll become extremely powerful. Even the fact that we had Rayleigh telling us how Haki grows a lot more in battle is also relevant for Sanji. He might have lost quite a few and been in many circumstances that didn't favour him, but he will definitely get his time to shine. I think he'll get Hardened Armament either during this arc, during the end, or after this arc is done with.
Because Oda makes Haki rather conspicuous and noticeable even against black. Can see the white outline, so he'd make it obvious in spite of a black background.
Can even see what he did hear. Pica's Spade symbol is white, and because he used Hardening, Oda shaded it white. So, colour Black or not, Oda would do what is necessary to make it noticeable by use of contrast.
Being anonymous is indeed an advantage among peers, however, if the person you are attacking has significantly better reflexes and speed, it doesn't really make a difference (if the margin isn't slightly different). It would be rare for someone to tag a serious Flash (off topic reference I know) even if they have the jump on him. Close to home, it would be hard for most to react to Kizaru as the guys fruit is ridiculously OP in terms of speed. Blueno could not match the superior speed of G2 even while knowing Luffy got faster and is the only enemy there.
Overall point behind all of that? Sanji showing that sort of speed is a good foundation for his serious fights. To me it is an impressive feat of speed, Sanji is not the Flash nor do I expect him to be. But his speed will be explored as Oda chose to highlight that in this chapter.
Hannibal, it's very hard for anyone to ignore the facts when they are slapping them on the face. Sanji himself states that he is going to use that opening to do what he did. It's a matter of appreciating what he did.
Oven is looking upwards, stands at 4.92m and Pound is coming down from an upward angle meaning Oven is probably looking at Pound from a height of anything from 6-8m. And you expect him to notice Sanji from below when he's looking up? That's like looking to the right and and being hit by someone from the left with enough force to propel you into a wall.
Oven acknowledged the attack, that's why he didn't believe Pound was able to do it. Oven was sent flying the instant that kick landed. Sanji is still in mid-air by the time Oven has flown very far away. How is he supposed to notice when he didn't even get a chance to look down from the force of the kick?
It's really not a matter of Sanji being too fast for Oven, it's more to do with blind-siding, and the fact he was focused on Pound. I haven't said Sanji's speed is not impressive, but this speed is nothing in a fight. They're able to deal with it just like:
You completely misunderstood the context. I never said Luffy blitzed Aokiji. I said he kicked Aokiji into the air. Taking anything at face value would imply Luffy was as strong as Aokiji simply because of that if not looked at in the right context. I'm simply saying it's the same regarding Sanji here, context is what I'm emphasising here.
nor did Cracker do the same to Luffy. Yes in all instances awareness plays a part, however the circumstances are different. Both parties are within very close reach to each other in the examples you gave, Cracker only managed to chip Luffys arm because he counterattacked from a broken biscuit within immediate reach. Luffy also notices Cracker, nevertheless he was fast enough to avoid any significant damage.
Again, you misunderstand the context. If you understood what I said properly, I said when you're focused on something, it's easy to get taken off-guard. That's the point I'm making. Looking at that scene at face value, one would instantly conclude that Cracker must be faster than Luffy when it's really a case of Luffy not expecting Cracker or noticing him until late. That was the point I was making. Oven is in the same predicament and an even more severe one. He's blind sided, he's not even idle, he's focused on someone, of course it'd be easy to take him offguard especially when attacking him from a blind spot.
It's as I said, a fact. The taller someone is against an individual, it's easy to walk into them or the thing because it's not within field of vision. Sanji is not remotely in Oven's field of vision. And it's even compounded by the fact Pound is flying from him from an upward angle. Not sure how a cut that was quite deep is not a significant damage.
No one is ignoring that truth, it's blatantly referenced by Sanji himself. The fact is, it is an impressive speed feat to not only attack Cracker but do so while saving Chiffon within a negligible timeframe.
Yes Pudding noticed what Sanji did (her adorable nosebleed confirms that for anyone who has doubts), however one could interpret that as her simply knowing (through a process of elimination) that the only one there capable of doing that was Sanji.
It's weird that Oven didn't pick up Sanji even within close proximity.
It's an impressive feat in the sense that it's fast.
It's not in the sense that if Oven was staring at Sanji, he couldn't have done that. No one who has known Sanji was around and their opponent has had difficulty with his speed:
Not Vergo
Not Judge
Not Niji
Not Daifuku
Sanji was literally ghost, disguised, not supposed to be there, and Oven wasn't expecting any defiance. Why would he be looking for anyone when he knows the only threat there is Pound?
I mean when you walk into an alley way that's relatively in a safe area, no history of muggings or any criminal activity, why would you expect to be a victim to crime? You wouldn't.
Feats that are not against characters are also irrelevant. Jozu lifted a giant ice rock and threw it, yes, a great feat of strength. It's irrelevant because it tells us nothing as to how he'd fare in battle. In the end, he became Joker's footstool, held against his will and then trashed by Aokiji.
Let Sanji face Oven and replicate that, we'll likely not be seeing this. It's no different to Oven closing his eyes or being asleep and Sanji using Soru in front of him. It's really nothing fantastic.
Where was this speed against Daifuku when he needed to save his dear beloved sister? It's a different story doing something when not noticed by anyone, different story when noticed.
Pudding saw him, but now it's convenient to regard her as week despite how capable she was taking on Reiju. Only people that didn't notice were fodder and that's a given, they're fodder.
Dont worry, I was laughing a little when I realised!
I thought everyone was just arguing theoretically and picking at straw arguments, like we usually end up doing after the first 7 pages in a thread XD
I think for Luffy, I agree with %*(&Y% point (i cant find his post now ;-; frustrating) that fighting Katakuri is a waste of his time and like he has already defeated Katakuri by locking him up incapable of helping in that mirror world. It's just a waste of time to take him on again when their priorities were to escape... Maybe this is a short term correct answer only though, and Luffy knows in the long term, he still needs to overcome people like Katakuri before he can even dream of overcoming the Admirals or Yonkou... Didnt I start this tangent thinking he should leave Katakuri but now I think he should go fight Katakuri again... I actually can't decide.
Apologies, got caught up in an argument and forgot to thankyou for sharing your experience, anyways, good to know it wasn't like mine.
I think as it stands now, majority of the fan base wants katakuri to be beaten. I know some that didn't entertain the idea at first, like @kkck, but he's now open to the possibility, especially if it's a gag victory and some buttons are pushed , personally I won't be happy if their fight is not concluded properly, like katakuri on the floor, knocked out, back on the ground kinda conclusion if you know what I mean.
From the look of things, it seems their fight will still continue in isolation without the whole town witnessing it, nonetheless, I guess it'll still have the same impart, all in all, the strawhats needs a victory here of any kind, gag, outside help, own power, you name it, it'll be a much needed moral boost for his whole alliance heading to wano to fight an indestructible dude and his disasters.
No doubt, the distance covered is great, that's not up for contention unless someone hates Sanji. I personally don't tend to be a fan of any character in order to be objective. I just mean in relation to what happened, it's not like he speed-blitzed Oven.
If he did this to Oven while standing right in front of him, or Oven was aware of his presence or intent, I'd be without doubt impressed.
Definitely hold nothing against him, I think he'll become extremely powerful. Even the fact that we had Rayleigh telling us how Haki grows a lot more in battle is also relevant for Sanji. He might have lost quite a few and been in many circumstances that didn't favour him, but he will definitely get his time to shine. I think he'll get Hardened Armament either during this arc, during the end, or after this arc is done with.
What Sanji did was impressive considering that it's Sanji but it's not impressive in comparison to other fighters such as Luffy, Katakuri, Doflamingo etc. The impressiveness of an action is decided based on the person.
If Luffy defeats Katakuri easily, then that's impressive. If a yonko did the same thing then it's normal.
If Luffy defeats an army of 50,000 people it's normal. If usopp did the same thing it's impressive.
Was Sanji fast? Yes! And it was impressive considering it's Sanji. But he isn't that fast compared to other people. Sanji hit Oven while Oven was concentrating on fighting Pound. It would be different if Oven was concentrating on fighting Sanji. Doflamingo got hit by Luffy's red hawk, but that's not a feat for Luffy because Doflamingo wasn't focused and he didn't expect that attack.
If Luffy defeats a sweet commander by himself or does something better than that, it can be considered impressive.
If Big Mom can defeat a yonko by herself then it could be considered impressive.
If Sanji gets into a fight and doesn't take the "L" then it could be considered Impressive. (I'm not joking)
What Sanji did was impressive because it was Sanji. If Luffy or Katakuri did the same thing it's not impressive, it's normal.
He didn't say it to anyone, he didn't even direct it at Oven, it was pertaining to the general public and fodder around him. Oven and Pound are way too self-absorbed and interested in the person before them, everything else is not in vision.
The speed Sanji covered is great, not saying it isn't. The point is Daifuku not seeing him has nothing to do with Sanji being too fast, but simply being out of sight and being pre-occupied with Pound.
Like I said before, you're omitting context:
No acknowledgement there's no Intel regarding Sanji being in Cacao Island. BMP don't have a clue.
He's in a disguise as one of the chefs. Oven has seen the chefs, yet not spotted Sanji. No one's taking this into account because Sanji.
What reason is there for Oven to care about anyone but Pound when he's a minister whom no one would disrespect and more so since no enemy is around to his knowledge?
He was about to let the chefs go free besides Chiffon, is he secretly an ally of Sanji and merely faking? It's because Sanji is not noticed. There's absolutely no reason for Oven to be worried about anyone standing in his way.
The civilians?
His soldiers?
The chefs?
Pudding?
Absolutely no one.
No one has issues with his speed. If he was so fast, regardless of distance, Sanji should have been untouchable. It's a different story when he's not in line of sight or noticed, different story when he's centre of attention as seen in every fight or action based panel in this arc. Of course, it's ignored, lol.
Luffy and Sengoku, it's not remotely related to this, not even in context.
Kind soul,
I must disagree with you. It was only due to Sanji's speed that no one saw him except for those who have been focused on him the whole arc. Mainly the 3eyed lunatic. He used speed and power that we have not seen him use before. Lets not over think it. That might have been sanji's best since fishman island.
Wow I just noticed that this was an huge argument. Are you guys serious. The argument that he was smaller and not being focused on is crazy. Your reaching. The chef needs a break let's just say he did great and focus on the GIANT SEAL ON A BALL PULLING THE CAKE. NOW THAT is far more intresting!
Was Sanji fast? Yes! And it was impressive considering it's Sanji. But he isn't that fast compared to other people. Sanji hit Oven while Oven was concentrating on fighting Pound. It would be different if Oven was concentrating on fighting Sanji. Doflamingo got hit by Luffy's red hawk, but that's not a feat for Luffy because Doflamingo wasn't focused and he didn't expect that attack.
If Luffy defeats a sweet commander by himself or does something better than that, it can be considered impressive.
If Big Mom can defeat a yonko by herself then it could be considered impressive.
If Sanji gets into a fight and doesn't take the "L" then it could be considered Impressive. (I'm not joking)
What Sanji did was impressive because it was Sanji. If Luffy or Katakuri did the same thing it's not impressive, it's normal.
, personally I won't be happy if their fight is not concluded properly, like katakuri on the floor, knocked out, back on the ground kinda conclusion if you know what I mean
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