One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Sanji could have beaten him down until he never gets up which is simple since if Base Kicks were making him scream in pain, if he went using named moves or even using DJ or Haki, he is down for an very long time. If Oda hasn't shown him back still after others, meaning he is down for good from the beatdown.

Reacting to an attack doesnt mean anything
Magellan also reacted to luffy attacks but he still beat luffy....
Zoan has strong body, while sanji doesnt excel at CoA (we saw this when sanji got his legs fractured against vergo)

 

[Fox666]

Sanji could have beaten him down until he never gets up which is simple since if Base Kicks were making him scream in pain, if he went using named moves or even using DJ or Haki, he is down for an very long time. If Oda hasn't shown him back still after others, meaning he is down for good from the beatdown.

IMHO it has been implied the Ryu Ryu no Mi users have crazy durablity. While Sanji attacks sent Page One flying, at the same time he seemed to ignore them afterwards.

 

[King Moe]

Judge wasnt cheating, the human shield is part of his tactics. The clones are his creation after all.
Judge also managed to give good hit to sanji on aerial combat. His spear work is not a joke either. Sanji blocked one of the pierce and had to kneel to recover from the pain. Judge had the upper hand against sanji in the short fight

One on One fight to bring in human shield to pierce through isn't far fight if your not man enough to push the hit yourself without help and piercing into a human body to prevent your opponent from hitting you.

Nah Sanji had more advantage overall and it doesn't take away he was winning until Judge needed to use interference to win. Though even so he is capable fight if he tries so he beat Zoro if he took out YC4 as shown.

 

[King Moe]

IMHO it has been implied the Ryu Ryu no Mi users have crazy durablity. While Sanji attacks sent Page One flying, at the same time he seemed to ignore them afterwards.

Not really. Screaming in pain is not what I call ignoring attack back to back and Sanji was using Base Kicks at that. If he was using more power, PO would probably die or out for a long time.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 4, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 4, 2020 ---

Reacting to an attack doesnt mean anything
Magellan also reacted to luffy attacks but he still beat luffy....
Zoan has strong body, while sanji doesnt excel at CoA (we saw this when sanji got his legs fractured against vergo)

Magellan situation was different case and he fights unique style compare to Zoro. Wrong example man.

No he doesn't he faints man. That is fact. His Haki isn't unstoppable if you faint from one stab.

Sanji was head-on attack and Sanji while nerf block it unlike Zoro who take one hit and he is down. Don't screw things up out of insecurities as shown man.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

One on One fight to bring in human shield to pierce through isn't far fight if your not man enough to push the hit yourself without help and piercing into a human body to prevent your opponent from hitting you.

Nah Sanji had more advantage overall and it doesn't take away he was winning until Judge needed to use interference to win. Though even so he is capable fight if he tries so he beat Zoro if he took out YC4 as shown.

so when zoro was 1v2 against killer and onimaru, you said it's zoro's L, but when it's about sanji somehow a fight should be a fair 1-on-1? Being biased makes you lose this argument.

This is sanji vs judge in the aerial combat:

We can see that judge wins against sanji here. Now tell me how do you think sanji wins here though?

 

[Fox666]

The recent chapters support that Rayleight is at the Yonko level

The Whitebeard Pirates and Roger Pirates fought for 3 days, and it seems they were equals Whitebeard and Roger were busy with each other, so their crews also appear to be equal in strength.

But who stopped Oden?

Oden is strong enough to fight Whitebeard, didn't bother after taking on a slash from Roger, and the shockwave of his attack sent the rest of the Whitebeard Pirates flying:

Someone like Oden could easily defeat the Sweet Commanders or All-Stars, it would need someone very strong to stop him

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Never said 2 vs 1 was a fair fight, but granted that Zoro has defeated multiple opponents before, yet lose to nerf pleasure and fox is let down especially fainting afterwards as from guy who can tank Kuma's Pain Attack to Luffy to how he look in Wano was VERY underwhelming.

Sanji vs Judge was fair fight until Judge call to use human shield to use to advantage as he pierce his weapon into one of them and prevent Sanji's attack going at him:

You expect Sanji to pierce his leg into an person to win a fight? No one would have done that in strawhats as again they aren't murders and it's clear here that Oda push Judge cheated to win a fight as he prevent himself getting hit by his attack and make use of human shield to come at him.

Sanji would beat him down without it, but it was stated and clear Sanji left the fight out of disgust, not because he couldn't beat him. Afterwards you don't see him injury at all and talks about how he hated on Judge using clones to in inhuman manner.

Both situations are different and your twisting logic as usual when you got nothing to counter about if Judge pierce Zoro, he will go down for good.

Sanji never could land a clean hit on judge while judge hits sanji several times. Judge wins there.
Zoro wont be 2v1 against judge so judge will have hard time to try to tag zoro.
Zoro is faster than sanji, he moves faster than fishman while sanji only moves like a fishman....zoro wins here.

 

[King Moe]

Sanji never could land a clean hit on judge while judge hits sanji several times. Judge wins there.
Zoro wont be 2v1 against judge so judge will have hard time to try to tag zoro.
Zoro is faster than sanji, he moves faster than fishman while sanji only moves like a fishman....zoro wins here.

Not really. Only significant hit was when he cheated to win while majority Sanji blocks his attack or dodge. Judge cheated to win as stated in outcome of the fight.

Judge would own him as he can't keep him up with speed. Zoro has no counter to that as shown with many fights.

No proof of that as it shown he was captured by New Fishman Pirates and couldn't do anything underwater. Sanji is shown swimming in water and moving at higher speeds than him. Zoro is bad matchup and only got Hody because he is scrub and he need to close distance. Nothing more than that. Obviously Sanji got overall better stats taking on others in different environments than Zoro does.

 

[kkck]

What's going on here...

The fight between sanji and judge is at best extremely ambiguous in its outcome. Though I lean towards sanji being the stronger one considering that judge did hit sanji but in turn ultimately failed to deal damage. Personally I think judge relies too much of silly gadgetry rather than innate skill. Most of the stuff judge caught sanji of guard with did not deal that much damage and ultimately wouldn't work twice.

There is no reason for us to think zoro can't keep up with judge's speed. As in..... when has zoro ever struggled with an enemy's speed? I could buy there being people whose speed zoro struggles with but this being judge is ridiculous.

Sanji probably can move faster than zoro underwater. "faster than a fishman" isn't a single specific speed. Yes, zoro did move fast enough to own hodi... But sanji has a specific technique to move quickly underwater. More than swimming it looks like he is running. Add to that, hodi was garbage even after he took his pills.

 

[King Moe]

Stop making headcanon. Judge beat sanji. Human wall is not even a cheat, its part of his creation. Do you think moria is cheating if he uses zombie army?

Zoro is fast but he is not fishman so he cannot breathe underwater. Zoro beats a fishman underwater....he is fast, no matter how hard you deny this.

By cheating. I show you panel above. Your denying the reality that Judge cheated to win the fight by piercing his weapon into an clone's body to prevent damage to himself. Sanji give up out of disgust, he was never overpowered by him. Also your example with Moira made no sense at all as his army was vs whole Strawhat crew which is fair all around.

Again, he didn't do anything until Hody got close, not from afar to hit his attacks and later blackout while Hody remain conscious and they captured him. Sanji has shown beating enemies in water and holding his breath more than Zoro. He isn't fast, he just lucky in close quarters he baited Hody to come within his distance more.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 7, 2020 ---

What's going on here...

The fight between sanji and judge is at best extremely ambiguous in its outcome. Though I lean towards sanji being the stronger one considering that judge did hit sanji but in turn ultimately failed to deal damage. Personally I think judge relies too much of silly gadgetry rather than innate skill. Most of the stuff judge caught sanji of guard with did not deal that much damage and ultimately wouldn't work twice.

There is no reason for us to think zoro can't keep up with judge's speed. As in..... when has zoro ever struggled with an enemy's speed? I could buy there being people whose speed zoro struggles with but this being judge is ridiculous.

Sanji probably can move faster than zoro underwater. "faster than a fishman" isn't a single specific speed. Yes, zoro did move fast enough to own hodi... But sanji has a specific technique to move quickly underwater. More than swimming it looks like he is running. Add to that, hodi was garbage even after he took his pills.

He has speed issues, @kkck. This isn't first time thing here:

Zoro doesn't have high mobility, speed reaction, and doesn't seem to use Haki to defend himself when getting front hit at him like with nails and Kamazou's scythe.

Not saying Judge would win in a fight with him, but seeing how he struggle to dodge or to outspeed someone especially RS on his gives him boosters, it push more Zoro will have same result like Kamazou fight with him getting stab and going down.

However, I do agree with you on Sanji side though.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

By cheating. I show you panel above. Your denying the reality that Judge cheated to win the fight by piercing his weapon into an clone's body to prevent damage to himself. Sanji give up out of disgust, he was never overpowered by him. Also your example with Moira made no sense at all as his army was vs whole Strawhat crew which is fair all around.

Again, he didn't do anything until Hody got close, not from afar to hit his attacks and later blackout while Hody remain conscious and they captured him. Sanji has shown beating enemies in water and holding his breath more than Zoro. He isn't fast, he just lucky in close quarters he baited Hody to come within his distance more.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 7, 2020 ---

He has speed issues, @kkck. This isn't first time thing here:

Zoro doesn't have high mobility, speed reaction, and doesn't seem to use Haki to defend himself when getting front hit at him like with nails and Kamazou's scythe.

Not saying Judge would win in a fight with him, but seeing how he struggle to dodge or to outspeed someone especially RS on his gives him boosters, it push more Zoro will have same result like Kamazou fight with him getting stab and going down.

However, I do agree with you on Sanji side though.

Sanji was pissed at judge, but judge bested sanji in that clash. Sanji also had used diable jambe, his best form, but judge still managed to land hits on sanji.
Sanji doesnt hold breath for a long time, actually. In fact, he was beaten by arlong's lackey underwater and only can defeat him after they surfaced.
Being hit doesnt mean slow. Sanji was also hit easily by big mom pirates when he tried to escape with luffy (sanji was shot and knocked down by yuan in 1 hit). Furthermore niji said that sanji is slow.

 

[King Moe]

Sanji was pissed at judge, but judge bested sanji in that clash. Sanji also had used diable jambe, his best form, but judge still managed to land hits on sanji.
Sanji doesnt hold breath for a long time, actually. In fact, he was beaten by arlong's lackey underwater and only can defeat him after they surfaced.
Being hit doesnt mean slow. Sanji was also hit easily by big mom pirates when he tried to escape with luffy (sanji was shot and knocked down by yuan in 1 hit). Furthermore niji said that sanji is slow.

By cheating, nothing more. Sanji would beat him without human shield as emphasize by Oda on why Judge need to cheat to win. Not really his best as he hold back once human shields came in and wasn't even using full power throughout the fight. Judge cheated in his fight which is clear and your in denial on admitting it, man.

Sanji hold his breath for awhile man as he came out of that and went back in to get Luffy when he was stuck. What you mean he doesn't hold his breath for long? Been shown he is great swimmer and can hold his breath underwater. Also you do realize that pre-timeskip and his first fight, Idk why your using that as excuse as we could use same of Zoro beaten easily by Buggy after one stab. Being hit from attack you obvious you can dodge from does make you slow.

Sanji protecting and holding Luffy, he can't outspeed many when protecting his captain in his arms. That's not good enough excuse and Niji also same guy who got kick in the head when they fought, so Niji is just being jerky brother, not really Sanji being slow at all and again was holding Luffy that decrease his speed when you have weight on your person. Again not using good excuse here.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

By cheating, nothing more. Sanji would beat him without human shield as emphasize by Oda on why Judge need to cheat to win. Not really his best as he hold back once human shields came in and wasn't even using full power throughout the fight. Judge cheated in his fight which is clear and your in denial on admitting it, man.

Sanji hold his breath for awhile man as he came out of that and went back in to get Luffy when he was stuck. What you mean he doesn't hold his breath for long? Been shown he is great swimmer and can hold his breath underwater. Also you do realize that pre-timeskip and his first fight, Idk why your using that as excuse as we could use same of Zoro beaten easily by Buggy after one stab. Being hit from attack you obvious you can dodge from does make you slow.

Sanji protecting and holding Luffy, he can't outspeed many when protecting his captain in his arms. That's not good enough excuse and Niji also same guy who got kick in the head when they fought, so Niji is just being jerky brother, not really Sanji being slow at all and again was holding Luffy that decrease his speed when you have weight on your person. Again not using good excuse here.

Sanji could not land hits on judge when they fought in air or on land, that was before judge 'cheated'. Oda doesnt emphasize sanji winning at all. You need to stop interpreting wrongly.

Give me proof that sanji can hold his breath underwater in a long time.
No, Niji was blitzing sanji before too, when they fought before the wedding. Niji was justified to say sanji is slow (at least compared to him).

 

[King Moe]

Sanji could not land hits on judge when they fought in air or on land, that was before judge 'cheated'. Oda doesnt emphasize sanji winning at all. You need to stop interpreting wrongly.

Give me proof that sanji can hold his breath underwater in a long time.
No, Niji was blitzing sanji before too, when they fought before the wedding. Niji was justified to say sanji is slow (at least compared to him).

He block his attacks and did land hits in that manner and only lost from cheating side. You need to understand situation and understand Judge's character is above cheating by how he is and it was discussed about human shield.

It was shown many times in many versions Sanji is great swimmer and can hold breath. Why you denying it?

No, Sanji kick his ass away early in the arc and didn't outspeed him and need to blackmail him to stop fighting back. Sanji is fast person, but just can't be as fast as he wants if he is holding someone which is real life fact too.

Let's end this talk as mods don't need work of deleting more posts the more we discuss about this. Learn to walk away and end the talk here, man.

 

[kkck]

He has speed issues, @kkck. This isn't first time thing here:

Zoro doesn't have high mobility, speed reaction, and doesn't seem to use Haki to defend himself when getting front hit at him like with nails and Kamazou's scythe.

Not saying Judge would win in a fight with him, but seeing how he struggle to dodge or to outspeed someone especially RS on his gives him boosters, it push more Zoro will have same result like Kamazou fight with him getting stab and going down.

However, I do agree with you on Sanji side though.

So.... we are assuming zoro went all out against carrot at the time? I seriously doubt that. I would agree in that zoro's fighting style isn't exactly mobility or agility focused but that is a substantially different thing from zoro being a slow fighter. Add to that, zoro did block carrot's attack.

How is the nail thing a speed thing? At a minimum it isn't purely a speed thing. It's a barrage of nails being shot at zoro at close range... Is the assumption here that the allegedly faster people than zoro would simply be able to handle this? As in, the allegedly faster brook, carrot or sanji would for whatever reason be able to deal with this and flawlessly protect luffy and otoko while not getting hit by a single nail? That just sounds absurd to me.

Even if we went with the idea that zoro was a slow fighter... How does that fit in with him having slow reaction speed? His reaction speed would have to be beyond ridiculous to handle enemies faster than himself. Otherwise how in the hell is he keeping up, blocking or hitting enemies? The lower zoro's speed is the higher his reaction speed has to be to keep up with much faster enemies. It is true that zoro doesn't seem to use haki on his body to defend. Though that's a different issue.

And... the kamazou and monk thing isn't a speed thing either. He got tagged teamed by two enemies and one landed a hit. Are we assuming that brook and sanji would be able to deal with this easily? Because that sounds absurd to me.

 

[King Moe]

So.... we are assuming zoro went all out against carrot at the time? I seriously doubt that. I would agree in that zoro's fighting style isn't exactly mobility or agility focused but that is a substantially different thing from zoro being a slow fighter. Add to that, zoro did block carrot's attack.

How is the nail thing a speed thing? At a minimum it isn't purely a speed thing. It's a barrage of nails being shot at zoro at close range... Is the assumption here that the allegedly faster people than zoro would simply be able to handle this? As in, the allegedly faster brook, carrot or sanji would for whatever reason be able to deal with this and flawlessly protect luffy and otoko while not getting hit by a single nail? That just sounds absurd to me.

Even if we went with the idea that zoro was a slow fighter... How does that fit in with him having slow reaction speed? His reaction speed would have to be beyond ridiculous to handle enemies faster than himself. Otherwise how in the hell is he keeping up, blocking or hitting enemies? The lower zoro's speed is the higher his reaction speed has to be to keep up with much faster enemies. It is true that zoro doesn't seem to use haki on his body to defend. Though that's a different issue.

And... the kamazou and monk thing isn't a speed thing either. He got tagged teamed by two enemies and one landed a hit. Are we assuming that brook and sanji would be able to deal with this easily? Because that sounds absurd to me.

He was aiming with front of his blade so he was trying to cut her down, but missed. Well not really as she fights by shocking you and you can see there she got him by shocking him as he groan in pain to that. So wouldn't say he 'block' the attack. I understand Zoro strikes differently, but it kinda of a 'slowish style to it compare to others who are speedster like Carrot with her abilities and mobility. Not saying Zoro will lose, but it's clear he have trouble with opponents like that.

It speed thing with nails as why couldn't Zoro use Haki to defend in time of his body instead of tanking it regularly as why use Haki at all if you don't know how to defend from sharp objects like Luffy who do it more natural when dealing with sharp objects as well with Sanji. He doesn't seem to do that flexibility with his Haki when attacks come in at him whether he knew or not.

Not saying it's always bad with his speed and speed reaction, but it's clear it's not on the lvl of Luffy and Sanji who has shown to know when to dodge and deflect more with opponents.

He face two people before and it was Nyan Brothers and Kaku and Jabra. He beaten former while survived the latter, but he is unable to do same with these two who one is nerf and other is a fox? This isn't first time Zoro face multiple threats and if he can't handle that with them, how would he face in War if many came at him the same way. That's the issue and he need to learn to raise awareness on his reaction speed and using Haki flexible in case one hit gets it especially major one given his Enma's drawback on taking his Haki away.

Brook, Idk about him. Sanji has shown he can deal with it on his mobility and reaction speed. He took on top tiers who are stronger and fight them off as of late, so he does have better performance in those stats than Zoro does.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

He block his attacks and did land hits in that manner and only lost from cheating side. You need to understand situation and understand Judge's character is above cheating by how he is and it was discussed about human shield.

It was shown many times in many versions Sanji is great swimmer and can hold breath. Why you denying it?

No, Sanji kick his ass away early in the arc and didn't outspeed him and need to blackmail him to stop fighting back. Sanji is fast person, but just can't be as fast as he wants if he is holding someone which is real life fact too.

Let's end this talk as mods don't need work of deleting more posts the more we discuss about this. Learn to walk away and end the talk here, man.

• See back my post above, judge beat sanji in aerial combat
• You said sanji can hold breath for a long time, since there is so many version of it, then just give me the proof
• Niji used stealth and suddenly was behind sanji. That means niji blitzed sanji. Sanji couldnt notice until niji was grabbing him from behind.

 

[King Moe]

• See back my post above, judge beat sanji in aerial combat
• You said sanji can hold breath for a long time, since there is so many version of it, then just give me the proof
• Niji used stealth and suddenly was behind sanji. That means niji blitzed sanji. Sanji couldnt notice until niji was grabbing him from behind.

We getting off topic, so can't continue if gets deleted later. Do it in another thread or just walk away from this debate you not helping yourself in. Sanji is great swimmer and show it in past arcs. Show me panel of Zoro fighting top tier threat under water that isn't Hody or Kraken. Do it in appropriate thread. Not here.

Nah he never did. Just cheated to win and address about it.

He then preceded to blackmail about Zeff and gave up the fight because of it. Your using headcannons, not facts.

 

[hokageji]

Roger vs Whitebeard is similar to Kaido vs Big Mama is some ways. two top tier pirates fight it to but end up partying...

I like how Oda has kept it vague regarding Roger and whitebeard in terms of strength. Its hard to argue that one is stronger than the other.

 

[M3J]

Around Sanji's strength, if not a bit weaker.