One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Fox666]

What are you arguing about?
If you read my earlier comments, you won't find me state anywhere that Smoker is weak.

Smoker without intangibility would be defeated by pre TS Luffy. That's all!
Or do you disagree?

I don't know.

Luffy managed to defeat Crocodile and Enel, and I think they were in a completely different league from Luffy or Smoker.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I don't know.

Luffy managed to defeat Crocodile and Enel, and I think they were in a completely different league from Luffy or Smoker.

If he defeated people far above his level, what do you think he'd do to a relatively weaker Smoker without the advantages of intangibility?

 

[jaymizzo]

I don't know.

Luffy managed to defeat Crocodile and Enel, and I think they were in a completely different league from Luffy or Smoker.

There is an explanation as how he could beat them though. Blood to make sand more solid, rubber to negate electricity.

Smoker was a bad matchup for Luffy.

 

[Fox666]

There is an explanation as how he could beat them though. Blood to make sand more solid, rubber to negate electricity.

Smoker was a bad matchup for Luffy.

It's still not enough to explain.

In Crocodile's case, he clashed against Mihawk and Doflamingo, and a full attack from Jozu did the same damage to him as Aokiji. All these other characters should be superior to post-timeskip Luffy, perhaps even with Gear 4.

Yet when Luffy defeated Crocodile, he appeared superior to him in both power and speed despite doesn't even knowing Gear 2 yet.

Enel also appeared crazy powerfull, moving at half the speed of light around the sky island, blocking Zoro swords with his bare hands, etc. The author even stated he would have a 500 million bounty if he was a pirate.

 

[Luke Beifong]

In my opinion, Luffy only defeated Crocodile in Alabasta because Oda didn’t know One Piece are going to be so famous in the next years.

If I’m not wrong, Oda once stated that OP are going to finish not so long before Sanji joins the crew. At that time, most probably, Oda didn’t have all the answers he have today...

Just think for a moment. Crocodile and Moria are both said to be super strong in his early days and even so they lose for Luffy without any of his gears or Haki. Crocodile is a super rookie in New World and fight WB and Moria survive a fight against Kaido. I’m not telling they are Yonko Level, but they are really strong at some point. How those two guys are going to be in the same group of Dofalmingo and Mihawk and not be strong? It always bothered me, but it’s the only explanation I can imagine

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

I am having tough time understanding yours, but feel free to have the nerve to go after someone's grammar as another troll tactic man. Your not really being an debator anymore here.

No need to be so angry and defensive about it, i am just asking about it

Nah, he did it with base kicks as you saw him pushing back Jabra before DJ came to play while Zoro having tough time to trying to hurt Kaku on his end. DJ was just him overkilling his opponent as moment it hits, Jabra got desperate a lot more. No he didn't as he was screaming in pain from Base Kicks. If Sanji went out more, he would be dead instantly.

Killer was nerf and not the same. Why you think Killer was at full power fighting when clearly your not when you been mentally and physically torture and Kidd spoke that about him. Your in denial again on the facts man. Zoro fainted afterwards from the hit with Killer, so it's a tied at best, not him winning especially Gyukimaro was still around and if he was bad guy, he would kill him.

Vergo was task to kill off G5 and Tashigi, he didn't when he couldn't get past Sanji despite him being nerf. It shows that Sanji was someone he couldn't take on as he thought throughout it. He is type of man to finish his missions and to not finish this one because of Sanji said how powerful Sanji was holding his own despite not being %100 yet. You did brought in Zoro in this especially when I said who he face in Wano as final fight and you made it S vs Z thing. You got lay off the insecurities and stop going after everyone who critic Zoro and praise Sanji, your making your fanbase look bad for being that sensitive.

• Sanji could not break blueno tekkai, he cannot break jabra tekkai who is stronger than blueno unless he uses diable jambe. Sanji base kick is limited in power
• Vergo was playing with sanji. Vergo left coz he was worried about SAD, stop making headcanon plz
• Killer was never tortured, just blackmailed to be orochi's lackey
• Give me proof that I was the one who brought S vs Z, i never mentioned zoro until u did. It was also u who throws tantrum everytime sanji gets critized, actually

 

[HereNThere]

Just think for a moment. Crocodile and Moria are both said to be super strong in his early days and even so they lose for Luffy without any of his gears or Haki. Crocodile is a super rookie in New World and fight WB and Moria survive a fight against Kaido. I’m not telling they are Yonko Level, but they are really strong at some point. How those two guys are going to be in the same group of Dofalmingo and Mihawk and not be strong? It always bothered me, but it’s the only explanation I can imagine

Yup. Moriah actually got a in story reason for his drop in power, but Crocodile should've been Doffy's level at the most and Jinbe's level at the least. No amount of blood or water on Luffy's part should've allowed him to beat Crocodile.

 

[Fox666]

In my opinion, Luffy only defeated Crocodile in Alabasta because Oda didn’t know One Piece are going to be so famous in the next years.

If I’m not wrong, Oda once stated that OP are going to finish not so long before Sanji joins the crew. At that time, most probably, Oda didn’t have all the answers he have today...

Just think for a moment. Crocodile and Moria are both said to be super strong in his early days and even so they lose for Luffy without any of his gears or Haki. Crocodile is a super rookie in New World and fight WB and Moria survive a fight against Kaido. I’m not telling they are Yonko Level, but they are really strong at some point. How those two guys are going to be in the same group of Dofalmingo and Mihawk and not be strong? It always bothered me, but it’s the only explanation I can imagine

After all the hype about the Grand Line, it was necessary to have a villain that lived up to it

But in the long run, it would have been better if Crocodile was the right-hand man of a Shichibukai. For example, Doflamingo could have been introduced has his boss, and he would have been one of his executives.

Oda did that with Katakuri, as Luffy doesn't actually fights Big Mom.

 

[M3J]

After all the hype about the Grand Line, it was necessary to have a villain that lived up to it

But in the long run, it would have been better if Crocodile was the right-hand man of a Shichibukai. For example, Doflamingo could have been introduced has his boss, and he would have been one of his executives.

Oda did that with Katakuri, as Luffy doesn't actually fights Big Mom.

I don't think Oda was thinking that far ahead, it looks like he was making up power levels as he went along. It's weird that Crocodile was standing at the end of Marineford despite the fact that there should have been enough haki users to take him out. And yet, LUffy is pretty strong, and he was probably angry enough to take out Crocodile with multiple blows.

Funnily, Doflamingo offered a position to Croc, and he refused. And was still standing despite fighting Doflamingo.

 

[nik87]

It's weird that Crocodile was standing at the end of Marineford despite the fact that there should have been enough haki users to take him out.

I will copy-paste my take on this from another forum. The reason why I think Crocodile might be very powerful actually:

The will seems to be a crucial part of the equation of how strong one is which brings me to Crocodile and Moriah whose will has been broken and they retreated to Paradise... If their will could reach the old glory or surpass it we potentially could be meeting incredibly strong Mr Crocodile and possibly Moriah as well.

Moriah looks weak but there was a rumor that he once fought Kaido equally, no? I never believed it but who knows what Moriah with a strong will is capable of... Shadow Asgard which he can actually control instead of signing his own demise like in TB, could potentially be very powerful, after all, he did split the entire TB with a single punch.

While we didnt receive much from Moriah and he looked as weak as ever at Beehive Island, Sir Crocodile has already confirmed his will recovering to old glory:

This is not a conversation about physical scars but about broken will. Now the big question is where does Mr Zero fit in...
He could be a surprise 10th Titanic Captain in Blackbeard's crew and on powerscale only inferior to Shiryu probably but I find it hard to believe that he would bet against Strawhats once again. A more likely option is that he joins Revolutionary army, imo.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Moriah looks weak but there was a rumor that he once fought Kaido equally, no

This is either head cannon or forgetfulness.
Moriah was never said to be anywhere equal to Kaido.
The narration was that he challenged Kaido and was trashed very badly (and had all his crew mates killed/annihilated).
Challenging a badass does not mean you are on the same level.
Crocodile challenged Whitebeard and was trashed but no one mentioned they were equals.
Preposterous to say the least.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I will copy-paste my take on this from another forum. The reason why I think Crocodile might be very powerful actually:

The will seems to be a crucial part of the equation of how strong one is which brings me to Crocodile and Moriah whose will has been broken and they retreated to Paradise... If their will could reach the old glory or surpass it we potentially could be meeting incredibly strong Mr Crocodile and possibly Moriah as well.

Moriah looks weak but there was a rumor that he once fought Kaido equally, no? I never believed it but who knows what Moriah with a strong will is capable of... Shadow Asgard which he can actually control instead of signing his own demise like in TB, could potentially be very powerful, after all, he did split the entire TB with a single punch.

While we didnt receive much from Moriah and he looked as weak as ever at Beehive Island, Sir Crocodile has already confirmed his will recovering to old glory:

This is not a conversation about physical scars but about broken will. Now the big question is where does Mr Zero fit in...
He could be a surprise 10th Titanic Captain in Blackbeard's crew and on powerscale only inferior to Shiryu probably but I find it hard to believe that he would bet against Strawhats once again. A more likely option is that he joins Revolutionary army, imo.

Moriah was never stated to be equals with Kaido. It was a miss translation that has persisted even to this day. What was actually said was that Kaido basically just wrecked Moriah's crew

This is either head cannon or forgetfulness.
Moriah was never said to be anywhere equal to Kaido.
The narration was that he challenged Kaido and was trashed very badly (and had all his crew mates killed/annihilated).
Challenging a badass does not mean you are on the same level.
Crocodile challenged Whitebeard and was trashed but no one mentioned they were equals.
Preposterous to say the least.

No it was a mistranslated scan. Neither headcanon or forgetfulness.

It has been used for years to hype Moriah, but it was just a mistake.

It was huge back in the day when good translations were scarce

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Moriah was never stated to be equals with Kaido. It was a miss translation that has persisted even to this day. What was actually said was that Kaido basically just wrecked Moriah's crew


No it was a mistranslated scan. Neither headcanon or forgetfulness.

It has been used for years to hype Moriah, but it was just a mistake.

It was huge back in the day when good translations were scarce

I recall it being stated that they were rivals, not necessarily equals.

Is that wrong too?

 

[Fox666]

Moriah was never stated to be equals with Kaido. It was a miss translation that has persisted even to this day. What was actually said was that Kaido basically just wrecked Moriah's crew

Moriah fighting equally with Kaido is not a mistranslation.

The narration was that he challenged Kaido and was trashed very badly (and had all his crew mates killed/annihilated).

IMHO that's not the narrative from the manga.

The story goes on the following:

Moriah and Kaido fought equally. At one point, Moriah's crew was annihilated. Then Moriah became lazy and fat.

There's no reason to assume they were not equals. Moriah used to be a powerful pirate, but wasted his potential. And recently it was revealed that Kaido was just an apprentice in the Rocks crew.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Moriah fighting equally with Kaido is not a mistranslation.

IMHO that's not the narrative from the manga.

The story goes on the following:

Moriah and Kaido fought equally. At one point, Moriah's crew was annihilated. Then Moriah became lazy and fat.

There's no reason to assume they were not equals. Moriah used to be a powerful pirate, but wasted his potential. And recently it was revealed that Kaido was just an apprentice in the Rocks crew.

Are you sure that translation is reliable? That's a coloured version and they are known to have the worst translations of all.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2020 ---

Moriah fighting equally with Kaido is not a mistranslation.

IMHO that's not the narrative from the manga.

The story goes on the following:

Moriah and Kaido fought equally. At one point, Moriah's crew was annihilated. Then Moriah became lazy and fat.

There's no reason to assume they were not equals. Moriah used to be a powerful pirate, but wasted his potential. And recently it was revealed that Kaido was just an apprentice in the Rocks crew.

What chapter is this from (I know it's end of TB)?
So I can confirm myself what the official translation actually said.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I recall it being stated that they were rivals, not necessarily equals.

Is that wrong too?

"Went toe-to-toe with Kaido" is the actually translation.

But it's the context that matters.

First this is coming from a pirate who doesnt have first hand knowledge of what actually went down. Second, we dont know how far back this event occurred

And lastly, Kaido himself said Kaido wrecked his crew and never mentioned they were equal.

There just isnt enough ro back up the claim that they were actually equal. No first hand account

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2020 ---

"Went toe-to-toe with Kaido" is the actually translation.

But it's the context that matters.

First this is coming from a pirate who doesnt have first hand knowledge of what actually went down. Second, we dont know how far back this event occurred

And lastly, Kaido himself said Kaido wrecked his crew and never mentioned they were equal.

There just isnt enough ro back up the claim that they were actually equal. No first hand account

That being said, I am a fan of Moriah and wouldnt be against a panel of Moriah and Kaido clashing equally

 

[HereNThere]

Yeah, there is no way Moriah matched Kaido. He just challenged him and got wrecked hard and his will was broken. Rumor spread and facts got twisted in Moriah's favor.

Then again, to some no names, simply challenging a Yonkou is probably amazing enough.

 

[Fox666]

And lastly, Moriah himself said Kaido wrecked his crew and never mentioned they were equal.

Why can't Kaido be equal to Moriah, and still kill everyone on his crew?

I'm sure Moriah himself could easily kill his new crew. In fact this is true to most captains that Luffy defeated.

Considering how violent Kaido appears, it wouldn't be unlikely for him to target Moriah's crew first.

However it's also possible that Moriah and Kaido went on an all-out war, and everyone but the two survived. Kaido being the way he is, couldn't care less for his subordinates.

Yeah, there is no way Moriah matched Kaido.

Not today.

But Moriah looks very different in chapter 0, and was probably stronger.

While Kaido was just an apprentice.

 

[M3J]

I will copy-paste my take on this from another forum. The reason why I think Crocodile might be very powerful actually:

The will seems to be a crucial part of the equation of how strong one is which brings me to Crocodile and Moriah whose will has been broken and they retreated to Paradise... If their will could reach the old glory or surpass it we potentially could be meeting incredibly strong Mr Crocodile and possibly Moriah as well.

Moriah looks weak but there was a rumor that he once fought Kaido equally, no? I never believed it but who knows what Moriah with a strong will is capable of... Shadow Asgard which he can actually control instead of signing his own demise like in TB, could potentially be very powerful, after all, he did split the entire TB with a single punch.

While we didnt receive much from Moriah and he looked as weak as ever at Beehive Island, Sir Crocodile has already confirmed his will recovering to old glory:

This is not a conversation about physical scars but about broken will. Now the big question is where does Mr Zero fit in...
He could be a surprise 10th Titanic Captain in Blackbeard's crew and on powerscale only inferior to Shiryu probably but I find it hard to believe that he would bet against Strawhats once again. A more likely option is that he joins Revolutionary army, imo.

I don't know, it seems hard to believe that he managed to fight Kaidou equally enough unless this is before Kaidou became anywhere close to as strong as he is now. But then again, Moriah's devil fruit seems to be pretty strong.

Cool, I wouldn't mind seeing Crocodile return better than ever.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2020 ---

Yeah, there is no way Moriah matched Kaido. He just challenged him and got wrecked hard and his will was broken. Rumor spread and facts got twisted in Moriah's favor.

Then again, to some no names, simply challenging a Yonkou is probably amazing enough.

I mean, the level 6 prisoners were pretty impressed with Buggy for challenging Whitebeard or something. And judging by the reactions to Luffy talking to Whitebeard like an equal, I think talking to a Yonkou in itself is admirable to the weaker ones. Luffy probably stands out in that regard because he talked to and even challenged Whitebeard like an equal, pissed off Big Mom and sent her a challenge, and is on Wano to take down Kaidou.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Why can't Kaido be equal to Moriah, and still kill everyone on his crew?

I'm sure Moriah himself could easily kill his new crew. In fact this is true to most captains that Luffy defeated.

Considering how violent Kaido appears, it wouldn't be unlikely for him to target Moriah crew first.

However it's also possible that Moriah and Kaido went on an all-out war, and everyone but the two survived. Kaido being the way he is, couldn't care less for his subordinates.

Nah. This is just twisting things in trying to make Moriah look good. Kaido and Moriah are certainly not equals.
They fought, Kaido defeated him and his crew. It's no different from Oden versus Ashura. Oden defeated Ashura and his crew/gang.
Moriah might've been strong back in the days but his situation is no different from Crocodile. They felt strong enough to challenge monsters. They got wrecked and looked good while at it