One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

The argument doesn't work with an exception. Getting distracted was their own fault, it's a weakness the Admiral's have not shown.

Well Mr. 3 got further than any Whitebeard Pirate...

It was their fault, but it still worked in the Marines' favor and helped them get an edge. Up until then they were unable to do much to Marco and few other named fighters.

 

[McNuss]

It was their fault, but it still worked in the Marines' favor and helped them get an edge. Up until then they were unable to do much to Marco and few other named fighters.

Jozu's iceberg throw was also just a piece of cake for Akainu, while Marco's kick to Kizaru didn't hurt him at all.

One split second of not paying attention lost them the fight. Each Admiral also got ambushed by one of them, Kizaru at the start by Marco, Aokiji by Jozu, and Akainu by Whitebeard, but it didn't cause them to lose the fight, and aside from the last example barely did anything at all.

When they engaged in direct combat with the Admirals, they lost. The difference in power is pretty large. The Whitebeard Pirates got completely wrecked in the aftermath of the War, which wouldn't have happened when their top ranks were actually Admiral Tier. The Admirals could have wiped the floor with Blackbeard at that time.

Totally disagree on Katakuri and Akainu. They stopped him with haki. They cut into his body, his cut was not moving lava around, it was a clear cut down his neck. I don't even know why this is a debate. Pre-timeskip haki was barely used, post time skip it's the key in every fight. Did WB and the admirals not know how to use it? The admirals did use it once, to block an earthquake. But since that time, we've seen every high level fighter use it at all times. haki pre timeskip is just not the same.

Akainu even commented that Haki users are troublesome, implying he consciously did something to prevent their attacks.

Aokiji is implied to have done the same at the start of the war.

I don't think there is any inconsistency with Haki between pre and post skip One Piece. It is just purposefully left unclear pre-skip, before it is properly elaborated post-skip but the mechanics are always the same.

 

[thedude]

Jozu's iceberg throw was also just a piece of cake for Akainu, while Marco's kick to Kizaru didn't hurt him at all.

One split second of not paying attention lost them the fight. Each Admiral also got ambushed by one of them, Kizaru at the start by Marco, Aokiji by Jozu, and Akainu by Whitebeard, but it didn't cause them to lose the fight, and aside from the last example barely did anything at all.

When they engaged in direct combat with the Admirals, they lost. The difference in power is pretty large. The Whitebeard Pirates got completely wrecked in the aftermath of the War, which wouldn't have happened when their top ranks were actually Admiral Tier. The Admirals could have wiped the floor with Blackbeard at that time.


Akainu even commented that Haki users are troublesome, implying he consciously did something to prevent their attacks.

Aokiji is implied to have done the same at the start of the war.

I don't think there is any inconsistency with Haki between pre and post skip One Piece. It is just purposefully left unclear pre-skip, before it is properly elaborated post-skip but the mechanics are always the same.

"when they engaged in direct combat". Dude...you really have to acknowledge the situation. They weren't losing their fights at all. They lost because they turned and started to rush to the side of the man they considered their father. I get what you are trying to do, "marines stomped them", but I don't get why you can't actually talk about the stuff we were shown in the manga. It's in the text, we have pictures too. The difference in power was so large that...the admirals weren't winning until their opponents tried to help their dying leader.

And Akainu saying they were troublesome did not in any way imply what you are saying. You are literally making things up now...

 

[Fox666]

One split second of not paying attention lost them the fight. Each Admiral also got ambushed by one of them, Kizaru at the start by Marco, Aokiji by Jozu, and Akainu by Whitebeard, but it didn't cause them to lose the fight, and aside from the last example barely did anything at all.

Yeah, the difference between them is clear.

When the commanders more-or-less attacked the Admirals by surprise, they were an annoyance at most. The second they got distracted, they lost instantly.

Also even after fighting Whitebeard, Akainu could still take on both Marco and Vista together.

Akainu even commented that Haki users are troublesome, implying he consciously did something to prevent their attacks.

It's not clear yet what Akainu did. But I think his Haki just was just stronger, so they couldn't cut him.

I don't think there is any inconsistency with Haki between pre and post skip One Piece. It is just purposefully left unclear pre-skip, before it is properly elaborated post-skip but the mechanics are always the same.

It's weird that we did not get to see anyone using visible hardening pre-timeskip.

 

[XXGenesis]

"when they engaged in direct combat". Dude...you really have to acknowledge the situation. They weren't losing their fights at all. They lost because they turned and started to rush to the side of the man they considered their father. I get what you are trying to do, "marines stomped them", but I don't get why you can't actually talk about the stuff we were shown in the manga. It's in the text, we have pictures too. The difference in power was so large that...the admirals weren't winning until their opponents tried to help their dying leader.

And Akainu saying they were troublesome did not in any way imply what you are saying. You are literally making things up now...

So YC can beat Admirals?
Plz answer that question.

Because your not making much sense with your argument. All of the YC have not been seen, but WB commanders set the bar so does the feats of WCI. They can injure and fight with admirals but they wont win, itll be a high diff win if any of the unseen YC possibly can.

 

[M3J]

Jozu's iceberg throw was also just a piece of cake for Akainu, while Marco's kick to Kizaru didn't hurt him at all.

One split second of not paying attention lost them the fight. Each Admiral also got ambushed by one of them, Kizaru at the start by Marco, Aokiji by Jozu, and Akainu by Whitebeard, but it didn't cause them to lose the fight, and aside from the last example barely did anything at all.

When they engaged in direct combat with the Admirals, they lost. The difference in power is pretty large. The Whitebeard Pirates got completely wrecked in the aftermath of the War, which wouldn't have happened when their top ranks were actually Admiral Tier. The Admirals could have wiped the floor with Blackbeard at that time.

I don't remember Jozu other than him blocking Mihawk's ranged slash, but Marco wasn't affected by Kizaru's lasers at all and was just fine. What caused them (or Marco anyway) to "lose" the fight was being handcuffed, which would have happened to the admirals too if they were shacked in seastone or something. Even after getting a laser or two to the chest while cuffed, Marco was still able to survive that and keep fighting once free.

Marco lost only because of the seastone cuffs. Had it been one-on-one, would Marco have lost to an admiral? Most likely, even though he has an advantageous devil fruit, so I agree with you there.

That's debatable as Blackbeard was ready to keep fighting after stealing Whitebeard's devil fruit until Shanks arrived. I don't think the top ranks are admiral tier, but they certainly didn't do as well because of Whitebeard's sickness.

 

[XXGenesis]

I don't remember Jozu other than him blocking Mihawk's ranged slash, but Marco wasn't affected by Kizaru's lasers at all and was just fine. What caused them (or Marco anyway) to "lose" the fight was being handcuffed, which would have happened to the admirals too if they were shacked in seastone or something. Even after getting a laser or two to the chest while cuffed, Marco was still able to survive that and keep fighting once free.

Marco lost only because of the seastone cuffs. Had it been one-on-one, would Marco have lost to an admiral? Most likely, even though he has an advantageous devil fruit, so I agree with you there.

That's debatable as Blackbeard was ready to keep fighting after stealing Whitebeard's devil fruit until Shanks arrived. I don't think the top ranks are admiral tier, but they certainly didn't do as well because of Whitebeard's sickness.

Marco was shot in the back twice.
He ran to help WB Kizaru caught him.
He ran again got cuffed got shot again.

 

[M3J]

Shot in the back, healed from that.
Got cuffed, shot, and either went down or felt the damage.
Was eager to get back into the fight and asked to get his cuffs off so he could rejoin the fight or something.

Jozu and Vista were also still standing at the end, if I recall correctly, and Mihawk was not able to beat Vista in the little time he had whereas he was slicing fodders.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Shot in the back, healed from that.
Got cuffed, shot, and either went down or felt the damage.
Was eager to get back into the fight and asked to get his cuffs off so he could rejoin the fight or something.

Jozu and Vista were also still standing at the end, if I recall correctly, and Mihawk was not able to beat Vista in the little time he had whereas he was slicing fodders.

Well said. Marco very underestimated... also considered by the Gorosei as one of the only ones alive that could possibly stop 2 DF Yami.


Gotta say this is a refreshing discussion to watch after all the nonsense.

I'm looking forward to seeing Marco in action soon.

 

[McNuss]

I don't remember Jozu other than him blocking Mihawk's ranged slash, but Marco wasn't affected by Kizaru's lasers at all and was just fine. What caused them (or Marco anyway) to "lose" the fight was being handcuffed, which would have happened to the admirals too if they were shacked in seastone or something. Even after getting a laser or two to the chest while cuffed, Marco was still able to survive that and keep fighting once free.

Marco lost only because of the seastone cuffs. Had it been one-on-one, would Marco have lost to an admiral? Most likely, even though he has an advantageous devil fruit, so I agree with you there.

That's debatable as Blackbeard was ready to keep fighting after stealing Whitebeard's devil fruit until Shanks arrived. I don't think the top ranks are admiral tier, but they certainly didn't do as well because of Whitebeard's sickness.

Only Marco was handcuffed, Jozu got beaten while at normal power.

Being unaffected by damage is just Marcos fruit power. Kizaru wasn't affected either though and he has no auto-regenaration. Marco is kind of like that Pokémon from Gold/Silver, and I don't mean Hou-Oh, I mean this bug Pokémon (ger. Pottrott) you get gifted on the island, that just can't die and wins by boring his opponents to death

I don't think Blackbeard would have been able to continue much longer as he and his entire crew were ragdolled by Sengoku and even Blackbeard's absurd stamina has limits. There is a chance that he would accidentally destroyed the entire World or at least sunk the island in a scenario where the fight had kept on though as he couldn't control the Gura Gura at that time.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2020 ---

Shot in the back, healed from that.
Got cuffed, shot, and either went down or felt the damage.
Was eager to get back into the fight and asked to get his cuffs off so he could rejoin the fight or something.

Jozu and Vista were also still standing at the end, if I recall correctly, and Mihawk was not able to beat Vista in the little time he had whereas he was slicing fodders.

Jozu was down after Aokiji froze him and he also lost his arm. By the end of the war, he was still carried to safety by Blenheim.

Curiel also got defeated, and like the others, he too was unable to damage Akainu.

I still think that Mihawk is a Red Herring, because the plot does no longer set him into conflict with the Strawhats at all, he is technically already their friend. I think his power has declined due to chilling too much in Paradise (gardening with Perona). My personal theory is that he gets involved with Shanks now, and will lose to Shiryu.

But based on data from the war, it definitely is Vista > Jozu.

 

[M3J]

Marco was still able to fight regardless of fruit power or not. The admirals were unable to keep him down.

Dunno because again, Blackbeard didn't think about retreating until Shanks arrived. He himself said Shanks was too much to handle. He obviously didn't care about destroying the world as he never mentioned that, as far as I recall, just the challenge of taking on the remnants of a Yonkou crew, a Yonkou, and the Marines.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2020 ---

Mihawk was never in any conflict with Straw Hats apart from Zoro due to his desire to be the World's Strongest Swordsman. Only reason Mihawk and Luffy fought was because Luffy joined the war when he wasn't supposed to, and Mihawk's task was to stop anyone from freeing Ace. Whether or not he gets involved with Shanks, the only way he'd probably not be Zoro's target anymore is if Shiryuu beats him.

Dunno as Jozu isn't a swordsman.

 

[McNuss]

Marco was still able to fight regardless of fruit power or not. The admirals were unable to keep him down.

Dunno because again, Blackbeard didn't think about retreating until Shanks arrived. He himself said Shanks was too much to handle. He obviously didn't care about destroying the world as he never mentioned that, as far as I recall, just the challenge of taking on the remnants of a Yonkou crew, a Yonkou, and the Marines.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2020 ---

Mihawk was never in any conflict with Straw Hats apart from Zoro due to his desire to be the World's Strongest Swordsman. Only reason Mihawk and Luffy fought was because Luffy joined the war when he wasn't supposed to, and Mihawk's task was to stop anyone from freeing Ace. Whether or not he gets involved with Shanks, the only way he'd probably not be Zoro's target anymore is if Shiryuu beats him.

Dunno as Jozu isn't a swordsman.

We know that Blackbeard at that time would retreat from facing an Admiral when he tried to exchange Bonney for a warship, then retreated when Akainu arrived. He just didn't have much time for that in Marineford as Sengoku was already at them.

Mihawk, as a Shishibukai, would have eventually gotten into conflict with the SHs, but now the Shishibukai are gone. That reduces the number of plausible scenarios for him and Zoro having a fight, because the plot is always centered around what Luffy does. The plot most likely won't stop for Zoro and Mihawk fighting it out on friendly terms.

The gardening panel is so much contradictory to the gloomy Dracula swordmaster image, that I don't think it was without a purpose.

 

[thedude]

So YC can beat Admirals?
Plz answer that question.

Because your not making much sense with your argument. All of the YC have not been seen, but WB commanders set the bar so does the feats of WCI. They can injure and fight with admirals but they wont win, itll be a high diff win if any of the unseen YC possibly can.

Possibly. We have no evidence either way. Rayleigh held his own against Kizaru despite being a 76 year old man. Becham didn't seem the least bit frightened by challenging one directly.

"they won't win"...dude, I don't know why this has to be so circular. We saw them fighting, they were not losing to the admirals. They turned to go help their leader, the man they considered their father, when he had a heart attack on the battlefield. Only then did the marine admirals "defeat" them, in Marco's case with the help of a Vice Admiral and sea stone handcuffs.

Hell, Kizaru even says he caught him off guard before the VA cuffs him, as he's still running to get to WB: https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-569-page-6.html

Jozu first hit Aokiji, knocked him to the ground and made him bleed. When we next see them, he is fine, no injuries, but turns because both WB and Marco went down. That's the only reason he lost that fight in the manga. Would he have lost that fight had it went on? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But to draw extreme conclusions on fights like that are just weird to me. We have the pictures. We know why a guy lost. To pretend they were beat down and destroyed in a heads up fight is just not supported by anything. So can we stop with that?

How is that not making sense? I want to know what you are confused by in this very basic argument. We have the pictures of the fight. Yes, the YC lost. But to say they lost a straight up fight is just seeing a different manga, and I will be happy to use the actual manga Oda wrote and drew, not one I make up in my head to help me win arguments.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2020 ---

We know that Blackbeard at that time would retreat from facing an Admiral when he tried to exchange Bonney for a warship, then retreated when Akainu arrived. He just didn't have much time for that in Marineford as Sengoku was already at them.

Mihawk, as a Shishibukai, would have eventually gotten into conflict with the SHs, but now the Shishibukai are gone. That reduces the number of plausible scenarios for him and Zoro having a fight, because the plot is always centered around what Luffy does. The plot most likely won't stop for Zoro and Mihawk fighting it out on friendly terms.

The gardening panel is so much contradictory to the gloomy Dracula swordmaster image, that I don't think it was without a purpose.

I think Mihawk and Zoro will have a "fight" like Shanks and Mihawks duels of the past. A friendly fight where they go all out to see who is the best, but with no intent to kill. I think it's been obvious from the start when Mihawk let him live that this wouldn't be someone Zoro would kill to surpass, he'd make him admit defeat, something Mihawk would ultimately smile at doing.

Maybe Oda does a brief side chapter on it? After an arc, sort of like the Foxy Pirates fight.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2020 ---

Blackbeard's interesting. I wonder how much of what he does, retreating from Shanks, from Akainu, is tactical. He seems to want to do things on his time, and isn't interested in being goaded into anything. He wasn't scared of taking on all the marines in Marine Ford, so his running away from Akainu's battleship later on could just be a tactical thing. He's one of my favorite villains in any manga. The fact that he waited all that time on WB's ship, and was willing to live and die there if he never got what he wanted is a cool character trait.

 

[HereNThere]

Losses in One Piece aren't the end all be all when it comes to high tiers.

Aokiji lost to Akainu, but I wouldn't say Akainu is guaranteed another win.

Luffy won against Katakuri, but I doubt he'd expect to win comfortably if they had a rematch.

The point is that the YC were keeping up with the Admirals until they dropped their guard.

As for Blackbeard, I think he was confident in destroying Marineford because most of the Marines weren't giving him attention. They were focused on stamping out Luffy and the rest of the WB pirates. But when Shanks pointed him out specifically, he took that as his cue to bounce. Blackbeard only acts when he has a clear advantage. It bites him in the ass sometimes because he gets cocky, but he's definitely an opportunist.

 

[McNuss]

Possibly. We have no evidence either way. Rayleigh held his own against Kizaru despite being a 76 year old man. Becham didn't seem the least bit frightened by challenging one directly.

The term YC is entirely a fan term, so I wouldn't compare Rayleigh or Beckman with Whitebeard's commanders.

"they won't win"...dude, I don't know why this has to be so circular. We saw them fighting, they were not losing to the admirals. They turned to go help their leader, the man they considered their father, when he had a heart attack on the battlefield. Only then did the marine admirals "defeat" them, in Marco's case with the help of a Vice Admiral and sea stone handcuffs.

Jozu first hit Aokiji, knocked him to the ground and made him bleed. When we next see them, he is fine, no injuries, but turns because both WB and Marco went down. That's the only reason he lost that fight in the manga. Would he have lost that fight had it went on? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But to draw extreme conclusions on fights like that are just weird to me. We have the pictures. We know why a guy lost. To pretend they were beat down and destroyed in a heads up fight is just not supported by anything. So can we stop with that?

How is that not making sense? I want to know what you are confused by in this very basic argument. We have the pictures of the fight. Yes, the YC lost. But to say they lost a straight up fight is just seeing a different manga, and I will be happy to use the actual manga Oda wrote and drew, not one I make up in my head to help me win arguments.

Loosing attention in the middle of a fight is one's own fault, and being unable to mitigate the consequences is as well.

The Admiral's also didn't pay attention sometimes, like in your Jozu example. However it didn't matter for them. On the other hand a split second of no attention lost Marco and Jozu their fights.

I think Mihawk and Zoro will have a "fight" like Shanks and Mihawks duels of the past. A friendly fight where they go all out to see who is the best, but with no intent to kill. I think it's been obvious from the start when Mihawk let him live that this wouldn't be someone Zoro would kill to surpass, he'd make him admit defeat, something Mihawk would ultimately smile at doing.

I think this is very well possible, problem is, it is anticlimactic and can only happen with a twist. Maybe after the fight, he will reveal he already lost to Shiryu and that Shanks is dead.

I do see Mihawk somehow crossing paths with the Blackbeard's, as this is where Perona is heading for (to save Moria), and Mihawk did seem to care for Perona.

Blackbeard's interesting. I wonder how much of what he does, retreating from Shanks, from Akainu, is tactical. He seems to want to do things on his time, and isn't interested in being goaded into anything. He wasn't scared of taking on all the marines in Marine Ford, so his running away from Akainu's battleship later on could just be a tactical thing. He's one of my favorite villains in any manga. The fact that he waited all that time on WB's ship, and was willing to live and die there if he never got what he wanted is a cool character trait.

It's more optimism and opportunism than tactics, even though Blackbeard is incredibly cunning.

He seems to believe that he is fated to achieve what he wants (probably due to Xebec), that's why he is willing to take great risks despite being scared of death. Basically Blackbeard only survived Impel Down due to dumb luck, and that was a strategy he had prepared at least since Jaya, where he tried to capture Luffy. Wasn't that well prepared after all, as only Magellan's mistake of releasing Shiryu, who was seeing an opportunity to get out, saved the entire operation.

 

[thedude]

The term YC is entirely a fan term, so I wouldn't compare Rayleigh or Beckman with Whitebeard's commanders.

Loosing attention in the middle of a fight is one's own fault, and being unable to mitigate the consequences is as well.

The Admiral's also didn't pay attention sometimes, like in your Jozu example. However it didn't matter for them. On the other hand a split second of no attention lost Marco and Jozu their fights.

I think this is very well possible, problem is, it is anticlimactic and can only happen with a twist. Maybe after the fight, he will reveal he already lost to Shiryu and that Shanks is dead.

I do see Mihawk somehow crossing paths with the Blackbeard's, as this is where Perona is heading for (to save Moria), and Mihawk did seem to care for Perona.

It's more optimism and opportunism than tactics, even though Blackbeard is incredibly cunning.

He seems to believe that he is fated to achieve what he wants (probably due to Xebec), that's why he is willing to take great risks despite being scared of death. Basically Blackbeard only survived Impel Down due to dumb luck, and that was a strategy he had prepared at least since Jaya, where he tried to capture Luffy. Wasn't that well prepared after all, as only Magellan's mistake of releasing Shiryu, who was seeing an opportunity to get out, saved the entire operation.

YC is literally a commander in a Yonko's crew. It's not fan term, Marco is the first division commander. Katakuri is one of the Sweet Commanders. Jesus Burgess is one of the ten Titanic Commanders. Lol, it's literally a term Oda uses.

And I was asked specifically about whether one of these, and Rayleigh was one, could beat a commander. So it's a little silly to now say "well, that one doesn't count".

I wouldn't call Marco turning and running to WB a split second. He abandoned the fight. And after he took those shots, he still went to WB instead of fighting. He wasn't fighting Kizaru, he was running to the side of the man he considered his father. Yes Jozu had been holding his own, and a split second allowed Aokiji to beat him. But Aokiji seemed to need that split second of him having his guard down. The actual fight wasn't going in either of their favor from what we saw.

Why is that hard to acknowledge? If we have the fight in the manga, that's all we have to go by.

 

[McNuss]

Losses in One Piece aren't the end all be all when it comes to high tiers.

Aokiji lost to Akainu, but I wouldn't say Akainu is guaranteed another win.

Luffy won against Katakuri, but I doubt he'd expect to win comfortably if they had a rematch.

The point is that the YC were keeping up with the Admirals until they dropped their guard.

Not really. Akainu shrugged off the attacks from Marco, Vista and Curiel like child's play. When he was facing all of the remaining commanders, plus Crocodile and Andre, Akainu still took out Curiel.

Kizaru wasn't hurt by Marco, that was a lie as both called out for the other.

Jozu made Aokiji bleed, but got annihilated afterwards. He's a cripple now.

You can't win a fight if you can't damage the opponent. The Commanders haven't shown the ability to do so, not more than how Nami hurt Big Mom.

The Admiral's are criminally underrated here. At least the Pre-skip trio are monsters in their own right and compare to the Yonko much better than to their Commanders. The Admiral's have insane panels in Marineford.
Fujitora could be weaker but he was playing a game in Dressrosa so we don't know much about him yet.

If there is any commander having a chance to be even slightly close to the Admirals, it's Sabo, and that is only if he progressed just as hard as Luffy, because then he is just ahead due to being older.

As for Blackbeard, I think he was confident in destroying Marineford because most of the Marines weren't giving him attention. They were focused on stamping out Luffy and the rest of the WB pirates. But when Shanks pointed him out specifically, he took that as his cue to bounce. Blackbeard only acts when he has a clear advantage. It bites him in the ass sometimes because he gets cocky, but he's definitely an opportunist.

Sengoku himself was at him at that moment. They were definitely paying attention to Blackbeard. But had Shanks not appeared, sinking the Island would have been his only way out.

 

[thedude]

Losses in One Piece aren't the end all be all when it comes to high tiers.

Aokiji lost to Akainu, but I wouldn't say Akainu is guaranteed another win.

Luffy won against Katakuri, but I doubt he'd expect to win comfortably if they had a rematch.

The point is that the YC were keeping up with the Admirals until they dropped their guard.

As for Blackbeard, I think he was confident in destroying Marineford because most of the Marines weren't giving him attention. They were focused on stamping out Luffy and the rest of the WB pirates. But when Shanks pointed him out specifically, he took that as his cue to bounce. Blackbeard only acts when he has a clear advantage. It bites him in the ass sometimes because he gets cocky, but he's definitely an opportunist.

Agree with this. Blackbeard is totally an opportunist. Even going after Luffy at the beginning to become a Shichibukai instead of going after someone stronger was being an opportunist. He goes after the sure thing wherever he can, even though he's crazy strong.

 

[McNuss]

YC is literally a commander in a Yonko's crew. It's not fan term, Marco is the first division commander. Katakuri is one of the Sweet Commanders. Jesus Burgess is one of the ten Titanic Commanders. Lol, it's literally a term Oda uses.

Yes but each crew has a completely different hierarchy so they shouldn't be compared.

Whitebeard had 16 Commanders who were all equal in rank. The strongest ones were the numbers #1, #3, and #4, Ace was pretty strong too, but Atmos got toyed with by Doflamingo. Whitebeard also had 44 allied Pirate Captains, with greatly varying strength.

Big Mom has three (formerly four) sweet Commanders, but all of her children serve as executives in her crew. Some are really strong like Oven or Daifuku, but the majority are even weaker than the combatants like Pekoms, Bege or Tamago, who just aren't related to Mama by blood. On top of that, some children are ministers, while others are not, and older children have higher authority than the younger children. Really complicated here.

Kaido has three All Stars, many headliners, of which the Flying Six are the strongest, "Numbers" and a Son.

Blackbeard has 10 Commanders and an unknown amount of subordinate captains.

Shanks hierarchy is unknown but there seems to be around half a dozen standouts if I recall correctly.

If we use the WB Pirates as baseline, then Daifuku, Oven, Perospero, (Compote) and even Tamago and Bege would be YC as they all are strong enough to qualify.

Oda himself never has used the term Yonko Commander as a term for powerlevel comparison. People just want to organize the Pirates into ranks like the Marines have, but that doesn't work out that well.

And I was asked specifically about whether one of these, and Rayleigh was one, could beat a commander. So it's a little silly to now say "well, that one doesn't count".

Roger has an entirely different hierarchy too. Rayleigh is the first mate and might have been the only "commander" below the Captain in the crew, which would make sense if they are similar to the Strawhats, a bunch of friends more than an organization.

I wouldn't call Marco turning and running to WB a split second. He abandoned the fight. And after he took those shots, he still went to WB instead of fighting. He wasn't fighting Kizaru, he was running to the side of the man he considered his father. Yes Jozu had been holding his own, and a split second allowed Aokiji to beat him. But Aokiji seemed to need that split second of him having his guard down. The actual fight wasn't going in either of their favor from what we saw.

We didn't see anything of that fight but we know it only lasted minutes, whereas Admiral vs Admiral can go for days.

Why is that hard to acknowledge? If we have the fight in the manga, that's all we have to go by.

Because it is not in the Manga like that. The Manga shows that the Marineford war is in favor of the Marines for most of the time, and only Luffy and his allies managed to give them like 5 minutes of hope.

 

[XXGenesis]

@thedude

your able to Express your perspective. I will definitely give you that. But unfortunately, I ll say many disagree with you, because its a old perspective that the manga has opened up on. If you think YC can possibly win, or probably win..ok.

Your wrong, but its ok. Maybe try to lossen up your perspective, re read or watch that war again, see how your thoughts may change. I'm not mad at the opinion you have, really happy how you defend your argument also. Its however incorrect, sorry.