One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[albertwv]

Change of subject.... lets go back to Pre Time Skip power ranking

Where would you guys rank CP 9 and Thriller Bark Pirates and Supernovas? I believe Rob Lucci was at least a little below Lower VAs and Moria. Which other Supernova do you think would be able to defeat Lucci or Moria pre TS.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Mihawk remained unaffected because he asked to delay their fight, not because he was winning lol, they were clearly equal. Nice try.

In the war it was apparent that the Admirals were stronger than Yonko Commanders. Marco was fine but you can also thank his regeneration powers for that. Jozu easily lost his arm.

And afterwards to Gorosei named Marco as one of the few who could defeated BB, but he eventually lost.

They were clearly equal? Same way Marco was equal to Kizaru, I guess?

And you can thank Aokiji's DF for his easy win.

If anything it's clear as to what Oda was trying to get across when he matched the strongest WB's commanders with two admirals AND Mihawk.

 

[Fox666]

And Zoro so many tiers below the supernovas even after what he did to Hawkins?

Perhaps I should elaborate more on this.

When the series started, Luffy was already stronger than Zoro and Sanji, but the difference was not that big. When Luffy learned Gear 2, the gap between them increased. We are given even Douriki values for the CP9, that show how much stronger Luffy's opponent was.

After the timeskip, that difference remained, even before Luffy used Gear 4. Everything in the story points out to Luffy being superior. It's clear that Luffy is the only one who could fight someone like Chinjao, whose bounty was 500,000,000.

At least in Dressrosa the difference was clear:

• Sanji had a hard time against Vergo, who was easily defeated by Law.
• Zoro was busy with one of Doflamingo executives, who were not more than a joke for Luffy or Law.

And when Luffy uses Gear 4 he reaches an incredible level, capable of challenging the Yonko commanders.

However the Supernova captains have keep up with Gear 4:

• Law fought Doflamingo all by himself. Even if he lost, he fought very well. And later Law almost killed Doflamingo with his Gamma Knife.
• Urouge defeated one of the Sweet Commanders.
• Hawkins proved himself to be a challenge for Law, and Jack showed respect for Hawkins.
• Sasaki was quick to name Drake as someone who could take an All-Star position.

But the Straw Hats get stronger over time. For example, Zoro defeated Daz Bones in the Alabasta arc, who was many times stronger than any villain from East Blue saga.

Is there any indication that Zoro or Sanji have gotten significantly stronger since Dressrosa arc?

• Sanji had some lukewarm fights in Whole Cake arc.
• Zoro sliced Hawkins, who won't get hurt from him like a Logia. Zoro got injuried from Hawkins magical nails attack.
• Sanji clashed against Page One, but they did not end it.
• Zoro defeated Killer.
• Sanji's kicks couldn't even move Drake.
• Zoro couldn't even make Denjiro break a sweat.

So the answer is no. They are still more-or-less the same.

Zoro now has Enma, and Sanji the Raid Suit. I believe this is for them to keep with Luffy power-ups. But we have barely seen these tools being used yet. But if the fight with Page One is of any indication, it will give them some advantage, but they won't be much stronger.

I'm quite amused how users here rate Zoro or Sanji so high. I already think it's weird people don't think Zoro and Sanji are near equals. But in so many lists Zoro is put above Law, or even above some Yonko commanders. The question is why? That seems completely random, they don't have any feats that indicates that. Quite the opposite.

 

[Fox666]

There is not a single moment where Sanji performs equal to Zoro.

Everything in the series points to Sanji being equal to Zoro.

You showed examples which cannot be compared. For example, Sanji being defeated by Kureha, which never fought Zoro.

• They had a competition in Little Garden to see which one captured a bigger animal, both defeated a dinosaur of similar size.
• They briefly fought against each other in Davy Back Fight, and they were evenly matched.
• Their CP9 opponents had an near identical Dourki levels.
• Their zombies fought to a standstill in Thriller Bark.
• Both were still standing after Kuma's Ursus Shock.
• Both defeated PX-7 together, and both caused critical damage.
• They knocked out each other in chapter 920 cover.

On top of that, Bentham's ultimate move is a regular move for Zala. Clearly it is Zala > Bentham.

There's no way Zala is stronger than Bentham.

Just like Sanji is many times stronger than Nami, Bentham is many times stronger than Zala.

What is the greatest feat of Zala? Breaking a wall?

That scared Nami, but would be nothing special for Sanji, who could easily defeat a Sea King or destroy an entire building with a kick.

And of course Bentham is capable of a similar feat to Sanji:

 

[Pirate Queen]

They were clearly equal? Same way Marco was equal to Kizaru, I guess?

And you can thank Aokiji's DF for his easy win.

If anything it's clear as to what Oda was trying to get across when he matched the strongest WB's commanders with two admirals AND Mihawk.

It was noted that Vistas sworsdmanship was elite. Mihawk respected him, and two 2 fought to a draw. Mihawk offered to postpone the fight at a later time. Vista agreed.

Your talk of down playing, but its you who is downplaying Vista whereas I'm noting both are elite. Your problem is you can't accept a YC can clash evenly with Mihawk becaus it somehow downplays Mihawk... but thats not the case. The mutual respect was not shared between Kizaru/Marco or aokiji/Jozu an you know it. Mihawk and Vista actually fought for 2 chapters with neither seemingly gaining the upperhand.

 

[nik87]

You don’t think Zoro will get a black sword in this arc?

Discussion - Zoro Discussion Thread

Luffy can't beat Kaido until the end of the arc - and it might be inconclusive to say he outright beats Kaido even after the L. So Luffy is approaching Shanks but needs the Kaido fight to rival Shanks in power. Zoro also needs to level up thru fighting. He has to beat a YC first. To beat Mihawk...

mangahelpers.com

 

[Deleted member 169696]

It was noted that Vistas sworsdmanship was elite. Mihawk respected him, and two 2 fought to a draw. Mihawk offered to postpone the fight at a later time. Vista agreed.

Your talk of down playing, but its you who is downplaying Vista whereas I'm noting both are elite. Your problem is you can't accept a YC can clash evenly with Mihawk becaus it somehow downplays Mihawk... but thats not the case. The mutual respect was not shared between Kizaru/Marco or aokiji/Jozu an you know it. Mihawk and Vista actually fought for 2 chapters with neither seemingly gaining the upperhand.

Mutual respect because both of them are swordsmen and it is a well known fact that swordsmen in One Piece are one of the more honorable characters?

If this is how you gauge someone's power level then I don't know what to say.

 

[thedude]

this is what i said:



After you said this:

" Sanji regularly reference each other as reasons not to worry about the rest of the crew. "he's with them, they'll be fine". These again, are manga facts."

Sanji has never said this!

Lol, i misread you, so sorry there...but that makes it worse for you...My claim was that they both acknowledge each others strength and say the other will take care of the weaker members. I used this to say they are roughly equal. Zoro saying it, which i had a page showing, actually helps this. Sanji not saying it (although I'm sure there are things like it, just don't have them. I know he told the marines Zoro would protect Tashigi or something similar back on PH, have to find it) doesn't make Zoro above him lol.

Another one where Oda hinted at them being roughly equal is through Dorry and Broggy back at little garden. Zoro and Sanji mirrored the giants there, fighting over who would get the biggest meat. At the end of the arc, we saw what the 100 year fight between the giants was about...who would find the biggest meat lol.

To bring this back - right now, the ranking is Jinbe > Zoro > Sanji. The latter two are close. And I'd say Z&S are close to Jinbe. By EOS I think it will be Zoro>Sanji>Jinbe, but again, for all intents and purposes, they will all be close. Luffy will of course be strongest. We won't know by how much because they never share enemies, they all assume Luffy will beat the boss and let him have that fight. So it will all be fairly close.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2020 ---

Everything in the series points to Sanji being equal to Zoro.

You showed examples which cannot be compared. For example, Sanji being defeated by Kureha, which never fought Zoro.

• They had a competition in Little Garden to see which one captured a bigger animal, both defeated a dinosaur of similar size.
• They briefly fought against each other in Davy Back Fight, and they were evenly matched.
• Their CP9 opponents had an near identical Dourki levels.
• Their zombies fought to a standstill in Thriller Bark.
• Both were still standing after Kuma's Ursus Shock.
• Both defeated PX-7 together, and both caused critical damage.
• They knocked out each other in chapter 920 cover.

There's no way Zala is stronger than Bentham.

Just like Sanji is many times stronger than Nami, Bentham is many times stronger than Zala.

What is the greatest feat of Zala? Breaking a wall?

That scared Nami, but would be nothing special for Sanji, who could easily defeat a Sea King or destroy an entire building with a kick.

And of course Bentham is capable of a similar feat to Sanji:

Mr 2 was obviously stronger than Zala..I'm shocked that this is even a debate lol. Bon Clay...the unofficial 11th member of the SH's! I still have hope he's alive somewhere and joins them.

 

[Fox666]

I still have hope he's alive somewhere

 

[Shasha23]

Lol, i misread you, so sorry there...but that makes it worse for you...My claim was that they both acknowledge each others strength and say the other will take care of the weaker members. I used this to say they are roughly equal. Zoro saying it, which i had a page showing, actually helps this. Sanji not saying it (although I'm sure there are things like it, just don't have them. I know he told the marines Zoro would protect Tashigi or something similar back on PH, have to find it) doesn't make Zoro above him lol.

Only Luffy and Zoro have ever said dont worry because so and so is with them, or dont worry because so and so are capable.
Sanji would never say it because he thinks Zoro is stupid while Zoro does say it but he then throws shade at the fact Sanji is a perve and incompetent.
He as telling the marines Tashigi would be fine since Zoro wouldn't hurt her, not that he would protect her with the G5 saying they thought Zoro was the type to cut first and ask questions after.
Zoro has always been above Sanji, just like Luffy is always above Zoro, i cant help you if you cant even see how the manga has portrayed them!

Another one where Oda hinted at them being roughly equal is through Dorry and Broggy back at little garden. Zoro and Sanji mirrored the giants there, fighting over who would get the biggest meat. At the end of the arc, we saw what the 100 year fight between the giants was about...who would find the biggest meat lol.

Oda wasn't hinting at them being equal, he was hinting at them being rival to one another, rivalry does not equate to being equal!

To bring this back - right now, the ranking is Jinbe > Zoro > Sanji. The latter two are close. And I'd say Z&S are close to Jinbe. By EOS I think it will be Zoro>Sanji>Jinbe, but again, for all intents and purposes, they will all be close. Luffy will of course be strongest. We won't know by how much because they never share enemies, they all assume Luffy will beat the boss and let him have that fight. So it will all be fairly close.

Of cause Jinbe is stronger since he has shown better feats, but yes after this war Zoro should be stronger than him.

IMO after Wana ranking should be like this :

Luffy - 100
Zoro - 90
Jinbe - 85
Sanji - 80(RS) / 50(base)

After BB pirates :

Luffy - 100
Zoro - 95
Sanji - 90(RS) / 60 (base)
Jinbe - 88

 

[thedude]

Ah!!! I must have forgotten that one! Come on Bon Clay, at least join the Grand Straw Hat fleet!!!! But he seems like he should be on the main boat, his connection to the crew was great.

 

[Fox666]

Based on the wrong translation Yonko are 4 strongest, based on actual translation they are 4 most powerful(as in political power).
What manga gave you is Mihawk being WSS despite 2 Yonko being swordsmen and that's where your relationship with manga ends.
Headcanon takes over at that point.

That's not correct. I have already posted this before. There's no word for "power" or "political" in the original.

四人の大海賊の内の一人じゃ"偉大なる航路"の後半の海に
まるで"皇帝"の様に君臨するそやつらを
世に「四皇」と呼ぶ!!!
He's one of the four great pirates, over the second half of the "Grand Line"
They reign just like "emperors"
Around the world they are called "Four Emperors"!!!

However, the original does not say they are the "strongest" pirates either. The wording is more vague, and seems to be just to put emphasis on their titles of Yonko.

That's not saying the Yonko cannot be the strongest, or having the most political power, or whatever. But I don't see it in the original. I suppose nobody would find it weird if the Shichibukai were called the "the seven great pirates" for example.

 

[thedude]

They are politically powerful @thedude Not THEE STRONGEST

Whitebeard attacked Marineford with pushing legislature through a congress! Not the Qukae Quake fruit! That Admirals fear his government connections not his Naginata! Whitebears summoned a tsunami, but not a tsunami of WATER but of government oversight and his demands for redistribution of government funds.

And Kaido is the WSC POLITICALLY! HE WAS DEFEATED 7 TIMES NOT BY PHYSICAL ALTERCATIONS BUT BY BEING DEFEATED IN THE COURTS!

Big Mom ratifying connections and through force marriages and producing children is why Mothe Caramel said Big Mom could possibly be a fleet admiral not because she was physically strong.

And Shanks... he has dark connection to the Gorosei who secretly control the world. Its was that strength, the strength of his tongue, that blocked Akainu's magma fist NOT his sword.

The Yonko are the 4 strongest POLITICALLY. WHY CANT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT!!!!

I want to nominate this for post of the year lol.

Getting to power levels, for Shanks crew to be on the same level as the other Yonko, to have the ability to make the marines, who wanted to defeat everyone say "not worth it", despite being so small, Shanks has to be a monster. And so do his crew. But Shanks especially. Which is why I honestly say he is the strongest yonko, and his crew are the strongest Yonko commanders. The reason he isn't guaranteed a win is a numbers thing. His crew is small, Big Mom can throw some really powerful executives at his crew, 2 vs 1, 3 vs 1, etc.

I don't say he's much stronger than Kaido or BM, and I think he's likely to lose to Blackbeard in the future, which puts BB at the top of the heap. But if we are talking time skip, I think he stands at the top post WB death (and maybe even at that time he was stronger than dying WB).

I see no way to put Mihawk in the converstation. I think he'd give him a good fight with a sword, but if he couldn't beat him pre losing an arm, why would he beat him after he became this Yonko? It isn't like Shanks sword was ever a dual handed sword, he uses a sabre. Anyone who watched Princess Bride knows when you resort to using a fencing sword two handed, you already lost lol.

 

[XXGenesis]

Perhaps I should elaborate more on this.

When the series started, Luffy was already stronger than Zoro and Sanji, but the difference was not that big. When Luffy learned Gear 2, the gap between them increased. We are given even Douriki values for the CP9, that show how much stronger Luffy's opponent was.

After the timeskip, that difference remained, even before Luffy used Gear 4. Everything in the story points out to Luffy being superior. It's clear that Luffy is the only one who could fight someone like Chinjao, whose bounty was 500,000,000.

At least in Dressrosa the difference was clear:

• Sanji had a hard time against Vergo, who was easily defeated by Law.
• Zoro was busy with one of Doflamingo executives, who were not more than a joke for Luffy or Law.

And when Luffy uses Gear 4 he reaches an incredible level, capable of challenging the Yonko commanders.

However the Supernova captains have keep up with Gear 4:

• Law fought Doflamingo all by himself. Even if he lost, he fought very well. And later Law almost killed Doflamingo with his Gamma Knife.
• Urouge defeated one of the Sweet Commanders.
• Hawkins proved himself to be a challenge for Law, and Jack showed respect for Hawkins.
• Sasaki was quick to name Drake as someone who could take an All-Star position.

But the Straw Hats get stronger over time. For example, Zoro defeated Daz Bones in the Alabasta arc, who was many times stronger than any villain from East Blue saga.

Is there any indication that Zoro or Sanji have gotten significantly stronger since Dressrosa arc?

• Sanji had some lukewarm fights in Whole Cake arc.
• Zoro sliced Hawkins, who won't get hurt from him like a Logia. Zoro got injuried from Hawkins magical nails attack.
• Sanji clashed against Page One, but they did not end it.
• Zoro defeated Killer.
• Sanji's kicks couldn't even move Drake.
• Zoro couldn't even make Denjiro break a sweat.

So the answer is no. They are still more-or-less the same.

Zoro now has Enma, and Sanji the Raid Suit. I believe this is for them to keep with Luffy power-ups. But we have barely seen these tools being used yet. But if the fight with Page One is of any indication, it will give them some advantage, but they won't be much stronger.

I'm quite amused how users here rate Zoro or Sanji so high. I already think it's weird people don't think Zoro and Sanji are near equals. But in so many lists Zoro is put above Law, or even above some Yonko commanders. The question is why? That seems completely random, they don't have any feats that indicates that. Quite the opposite.

I should dissect to address specific points but I'll just summarize.

Luffy is stronger than Zoro & Sanji..Duh, whoever can't understand this, is delusional and biased because they probably like them more than Luffy.

Zoro & Sanji arenequals and are meant to be equals. Yes this is very true. However Zoro always seemed to have a edge up on Sanji. Current PTS, there's a clear gap at the moment.

Zoro & Sanii vs Commanders. Its only to be expected and is reasonable want from fans and projection of the characters strength. Neither has been given the same opportunity as Luffy for a good 1 vs 1.

That being said hoping for anyone ofthem to fight commander #1 is ridiculous. We saw Luffy fight 3 Commander lv Pirates to attain such a lv, so why or how should they be able to jump up so high in power...

 

[hokageji]

The black blade is something which even oden, a nigh yonko level fighter, didn't achieve. If zoro gets a black blade it sounds like it should be something that comes near the very end of the story. As in, at a point where even the suggestion that zoro might lose to jinbe is beyond stupid. As for the breath of all things, doesn't zoro already have that? IIRC that was about zoro cutting what he wants.

Right, we can debate whether or not Zoro will achieve black blade now or end of series, but thats beyond the scope of the discussion. I do believe Zoro will outrank Jinbei in strength, that is gonna happen. But at the moment, Jinbei is stronger, or do you disagree?

 

[nik87]

But at the moment, Jinbei is stronger, or do you disagree?

How do you see the fight between them going?

 

[nik87]

That's not correct. I have already posted this before. There's no word for "power" or "political" in the original.

四人の大海賊の内の一人じゃ"偉大なる航路"の後半の海に
まるで"皇帝"の様に君臨するそやつらを
世に「四皇」と呼ぶ!!!
He's one of the four great pirates, over the second half of the "Grand Line"
They reign just like "emperors"
Around the world they are called "Four Emperors"!!!

However, the original does not say they are the "strongest" pirates either. The wording is more vague, and seems to be just to put emphasis on their titles of Yonko.

That's not saying the Yonko cannot be the strongest, or having the most political power, or whatever. But I don't see it in the original. I suppose nobody would find it weird if the Shichibukai were called the "the seven great pirates" for example.

Thanks, that works well for my argument as well. So, all who use that scene to justify Yonkos as 4 strongest pirates individually, need to use something else.
The emphasis is on their title - Four Emperors, they reign just like Emperors.
They have territories, they have underlings, the greatest authority among pirates. They happen to be among the strongest pirates but whether they are top 4 when it comes to individual strength, is not confirmed anywhere.

Back to manga giving Mihawk a title of the WSS while two Yonkos are swordsmen means only one thing in my book.

 

[kkck]

Right, we can debate whether or not Zoro will achieve black blade now or end of series, but thats beyond the scope of the discussion. I do believe Zoro will outrank Jinbei in strength, that is gonna happen. But at the moment, Jinbei is stronger, or do you disagree?

My inclination is that zoro right now is likely stronger. Jinbe is powerful but within the context of the new world and yonko crews he is beneath top 3 yonko commanders (as in beneath sweet commanders, calamities....) or admirals. Zoro has never been pushed in the new world (to the point where he has won his fights comfortably without azura) and now is getting a haki boost... Which if only half as good as what luffy has gotten recently is somewhat insane. So luffy is without a doubt well stronger than jinbe... As in, if he uses the advanced forms of haki he has available then he shouldn't even need gear 4 to win. Zoro historically has not lagged that much behind luffy and is getting his own haki boost... I'd guess that either zoro is stronger or perhaps at worst around jinbe.

 

[nik87]

My inclination is that zoro right now is likely stronger. Jinbe is powerful but within the context of the new world and yonko crews he is beneath top 3 yonko commanders (as in beneath sweet commanders, calamities....) or admirals. Zoro has never been pushed in the new world (to the point where he has won his fights comfortably without azura) and now is getting a haki boost... Which if only half as good as what luffy has gotten recently is somewhat insane. So luffy is without a doubt well stronger than jinbe... As in, if he uses the advanced forms of haki he has available then he shouldn't even need gear 4 to win. Zoro historically has not lagged that much behind luffy and is getting his own haki boost... I'd guess that either zoro is stronger or perhaps at worst around jinbe.

I think Jinbe is not beneath Yonko commanders, I think he is around YC2, depends on each commander as well since match-up can be decisive point but Zoro is still above Jinbe. I think he was already around YC1 the moment he returned from training and if he beats King without new power-ups it will be proven that he was that level.
If the power-up is cutting fire, I think that changes nothing since such PU is not a universal one and only useful against fire users.
Luffy's advanced CoA affects the insides if he cannot deal with the outside shell and Jinbe has basically the same ability in form of Fishmen Karate and he doesnt even have to be anywhere close to target as Luffy needs to be. It is most likely significantly weaker but it is similar.

 

[Fox666]

Zoro & Sanji arenequals and are meant to be equals. Yes this is very true. However Zoro always seemed to have a edge up on Sanji. Current PTS, there's a clear gap at the moment.

They are still equal after the time-skip.

It does not seem for me that balance among the Straw Hats did not change after the time-skip, except for Luffy who learned Gear 4. Everyone else got stronger in the same proportion. But this alone is not proof.

But these pages show them as equals:

Spoiler

The problem being, of course, how Zoro and Sanji have not been given many fights after the time-skip. But the lack of evidence shouldn't serve as evidence that they are no longer equals.