One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

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[jaymizzo]

But Pica's devil fruit was really strong,people shouldn't downplay it. And he clearly had good armament haki. Zoro was just stronger. But we don't have to pretend he was the strongest in Doffy's crew, it's just not true. And he is certainly no match for any of the YC's we've seen.

Agree to disagree as @Lexusflame says.

The way I saw the fight was that the DF really doesn't do much else. Its not even remotely as hard as Doffys strings or as versatile as most fruits you would consider OP. My thoughts anyhow.

 

[Aki1991]

Pica was called Doflamingo right hand because he is one of the executives. It's not something exclusive to him.

I think the manga very much implied that Vergo was special even among the executives, because of both his strength and his loyalty.

I was not talking about the manga, I was talking about this forum. Pica is always named as second strongest to elevate Zolo like thedude said. It was clearly shown, that Vergo was the VC of Dofy.

However, btt.

Dofy was 1YC level imo. I wouldn't even put Vergo on 3YC, maybe slightly above Oven level. So big was the gap between Dofy and his crew. Pica was not weak but he was far away from YC level.

 

[thedude]

Agree to disagree as @Lexusflame says.

The way I saw the fight was that the DF really doesn't do much else. Its not even remotely as hard as Doffys strings or as versatile as most fruits you would consider OP. My thoughts anyhow.

I don't think it has to be as strong as DF's strings to be a really strong DF. He can warp and use any stone, making himself city sized if needed. I don't see how that is weak. He isn't as strong as the higher end fighters now, but that power is pretty deadly, espeically against large groups of mid-tier fighters.

 

[HereNThere]

Pica isn't anywhere near YC level. His fruit is plenty versatile though.

It all comes down to the user, as stated many times in the series.

Foxy's fruit has the potential to be one of the strongest fruits around. Exceedingly more useful than the majority of fruits held by New World veterans...but he's some nobody in Paradise.

On the flip side, Cracker can clap his hands and make...crackers/biscuits. Yet he's taken his fruit to another level.

Pica should be able to do similar feats...but he didn't. He used rather straight forward moves and relied on his inability to be touched. Kinda like a cocky logia user.

And when push came to shove, he couldn't do anything physically when his fruit failed.

 

[thedude]

Pica isn't anywhere near YC level. His fruit is plenty versatile though.

It all comes down to the user, as stated many times in the series.

Foxy's fruit has the potential to be one of the strongest fruits around. Exceedingly more useful than the majority of fruits held by New World veterans...but he's some nobody in Paradise.

On the flip side, Cracker can clap his hands and make...crackers/biscuits. Yet he's taken his fruit to another level.

Pica should be able to do similar feats...but he didn't. He used rather straight forward moves and relied on his inability to be touched. Kinda like a cocky logia user.

And when push came to shove, he couldn't do anything physically when his fruit failed.

Right. Cracker and Katakuri take their DF to absurd levels. Mochi is a freaking rice cake, but does anyone (who isn't pretending for the purposes of supporting Zoro) really going to say that Pica would last a minute vs Katakuri? Likewise, I'm not sure Pica is even making cracker get out of his first armor suit, let alone fight an army of biscuit clones.

His DF should be amazing, and against mid-tier guys, it actually is. But he didn't show much with it beyond regular "get really big and smash things".

 

[Takuan]

Pica's strength is solely based on his DF and his environment; he himself isn't that strong.

Pica with no DF is below every other Doffy Executives.
Pica in an environment with not a lot of stone, is below all the other Executives as well.

However, put Pica in a huge stone city like Dressrosa, and he becomes way more powerful. Dressrosa Pica was the strongest Executive imo, eventhough overall i think he's the weakest of the bunch.

 

[Nie Li]

Right. Cracker and Katakuri take their DF to absurd levels. Mochi is a freaking rice cake, but does anyone (who isn't pretending for the purposes of supporting Zoro) really going to say that Pica would last a minute vs Katakuri? Likewise, I'm not sure Pica is even making cracker get out of his first armor suit, let alone fight an army of biscuit clones.

His DF should be amazing, and against mid-tier guys, it actually is. But he didn't show much with it beyond regular "get really big and smash things".

The ones that are mentioning Zoro the most during this topic are the ones not defending Pica, though. Lots of assumptions.
The thing against Pica vs Cracker would be that the opposite question can also be asked. How would Cracker get to Pica's real body in a full fight?
Not saying Cracker can't possibly beat him, but I don't see how he could "easily" do so.

 

[thedude]

The ones that are mentioning Zoro the most during this topic are the ones not defending Pica, though. Lots of assumptions.
The thing against Pica vs Cracker would be that the opposite question can also be asked. How would Cracker get to Pica's real body in a full fight?
Not saying Cracker can't possibly beat him, but I don't see how he could "easily" do so.

Dude...we've all been here long enough to know what an argument by certain posters actually is about. Like Mihawk being stronger than Yonkos...it's not about Mihawk. Or when certain posters say that not only was Pica the strongest crew member, but also stronger than the YC's we've seen...it's not about Pica.

Cracker's biscuits could pummel Luffy, they could bash some rocks. I would think his haki and skill would be able to deduce where Pica was as well. I don't see his biscuit soldiers being broken up by Pica's attacks if they could survive Luffy's.

 

[Nie Li]

Pica's strength is solely based on his DF and his environment; he himself isn't that strong.

Pica with no DF is below every other Doffy Executives.
Pica in an environment with not a lot of stone, is below all the other Executives as well.

However, put Pica in a huge stone city like Dressrosa, and he becomes way more powerful. Dressrosa Pica was the strongest Executive imo, eventhough overall i think he's the weakest of the bunch.

That is also true. Pica thrilled because of Dressrosa being entirely stone-built. In this sense his fruit reminds me of the gold fruit from that one movie.
So I guess what I just asked is much different if it's Pica vs Cracker on a place like Dressrosa or Pica vs Cracker on a desert or a ship.

 

[Pirate Queen]

The reality is completely the opposite. Pica's DF is what made him strong.
Kaido with Pica's DF wouldnt perform any differently because the stats of the user dont affect the stone Golem in any way possible.
No matter who wields that DF, the performance is the same.

The reality is as I said previously. Its the wielder, not the df that makes the character overall strong.

If it was Pica vs Kaido and both had the same df which would be stronger overall? The character that is the better figher, stronger haki, better tactics etc

Pika would run scared if he was facing Kaido because he is a coward. Even if they had the same ability.

 

[Nie Li]

Dude...we've all been here long enough to know what an argument by certain posters actually is about. Like Mihawk being stronger than Yonkos...it's not about Mihawk. Or when certain posters say that not only was Pica the strongest crew member, but also stronger than the YC's we've seen...it's not about Pica.

Cracker's biscuits could pummel Luffy, they could bash some rocks. I would think his haki and skill would be able to deduce where Pica was as well. I don't see his biscuit soldiers being broken up by Pica's attacks if they could survive Luffy's.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly defending Pica and not doing so because of Zoro. I'm being objective here.

The argument of "Pica's powers is just some rocks" is absurd. It's like you're saying it's the same if I hit you with pebble or drop a meteorite on you just because they're both rocks.
There is no in-manga confirmation haki could pinpoint Pica inside the stone. The only thing we know is that no character did and Zoro took a 50% chance when chosing where to attack, and didn't mention anything about "trying to feel where Pica is", despite Zoro having some degree of CoO.
If we are talking about Pica fighting in a place full of rocks, in which he can use his full power, he "becomes the place". He could just disappear into the ground and manipulate the whole place into a giant golem without actually being inside the golem as long as it was connected to the ground, and the rock he's controlling has fast regeneration properties. Of course Cracker can crack the rock, but it both regenerates and can become extremely huge (which is more than "just some rocks"). No matter if Pica isn't physically strong and of course Cracker would beat him if they fought without their DF powers, but his fruit is just one of those fruits that instantly makes him into a NW veteran despite the person inside being a nobody.

I don't even like Pica's character that much, but he was stronger than Diamante, Trébol and most likely even Vergo, just because of an OP DF. However what @Takuan said puts into perspective that Pica is only that OP in certain environments and if he was to go on an adventure he would travel through many places in which he would be useless and the weakest.

 

[thedude]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly defending Pica and not doing so because of Zoro. I'm being objective here.

The argument of "Pica's powers is just some rocks" is absurd. It's like you're saying it's the same if I hit you with pebble or drop a meteorite on you just because they're both rocks.
There is no in-manga confirmation haki could pinpoint Pica inside the stone. The only thing we know is that no character did and Zoro took a 50% chance when chosing where to attack, and didn't mention anything about "trying to feel where Pica is", despite Zoro having some degree of CoO.
If we are talking about Pica fighting in a place full of rocks, in which he can use his full power, he "becomes the place". He could just disappear into the ground and manipulate the whole place into a giant golem without actually being inside the golem as long as it was connected to the ground, and the rock he's controlling has fast regeneration properties. Of course Cracker can crack the rock, but it both regenerates and can become extremely huge (which is more than "just some rocks"). No matter if Pica isn't physically strong and of course Cracker would beat him if they fought without their DF powers, but his fruit is just one of those fruits that instantly makes him into a NW veteran despite the person inside being a nobody.

I don't even like Pica's character that much, but he was stronger than Diamante, Trébol and most likely even Vergo, just because of an OP DF. However what @Takuan said puts into perspective that Pica is only that OP in certain environments and if he was to go on an adventure he would travel through many places in which he would be useless and the weakest.

I disagree that he was stronger than Vergo. Can't say vs Diamante. But Vergo was shown as someone who had extreme haki, he could do exactly what Zoro did. Pica certainly has an advantage given his power, but Vergo doesn't seem like someone that power would work on.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly defending Pica and not doing so because of Zoro. I'm being objective here.

The argument of "Pica's powers is just some rocks" is absurd. It's like you're saying it's the same if I hit you with pebble or drop a meteorite on you just because they're both rocks.
There is no in-manga confirmation haki could pinpoint Pica inside the stone. The only thing we know is that no character did and Zoro took a 50% chance when chosing where to attack, and didn't mention anything about "trying to feel where Pica is", despite Zoro having some degree of CoO.
If we are talking about Pica fighting in a place full of rocks, in which he can use his full power, he "becomes the place". He could just disappear into the ground and manipulate the whole place into a giant golem without actually being inside the golem as long as it was connected to the ground, and the rock he's controlling has fast regeneration properties. Of course Cracker can crack the rock, but it both regenerates and can become extremely huge (which is more than "just some rocks"). No matter if Pica isn't physically strong and of course Cracker would beat him if they fought without their DF powers, but his fruit is just one of those fruits that instantly makes him into a NW veteran despite the person inside being a nobody.

I don't even like Pica's character that much, but he was stronger than Diamante, Trébol and most likely even Vergo, just because of an OP DF. However what @Takuan said puts into perspective that Pica is only that OP in certain environments and if he was to go on an adventure he would travel through many places in which he would be useless and the weakest.

I certainly don't think Pica is weak either. I just think he is Yonko Commander level. And my arguments have been as such.

He is a strong NW vet. Level character but thats it. Any one competent enough in combat by NE standards certainly wouldn't find him TOO MUCH to handle.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 7, 2020 ---

Pica's strength is solely based on his DF and his environment; he himself isn't that strong.

Pica with no DF is below every other Doffy Executives.
Pica in an environment with not a lot of stone, is below all the other Executives as well.

However, put Pica in a huge stone city like Dressrosa, and he becomes way more powerful. Dressrosa Pica was the strongest Executive imo, eventhough overall i think he's the weakest of the bunch.

Who would you thing is stronger.

Pica as he is or Doflamingo with Pica's df?

Doflamingo's ability to utilize his df in ways we have never seen before or Pica who cuts and runs the first chance he gets? Who would you pick in a fight? Genuinely curious

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 7, 2020 ---

WB with the Quake Fruit vs Buggy with the Quake fruit?

Who are you picking to win

Wouldn't that mean that under the right circumstances, any fruit is OP if given to a Yonkou level character?

There are fruits that are directly OP regardless of weilder. Sugars fruit doesn't really make a difference who is weilding it. Laws fruit the same. Some fruits you simply don't have to be strong to actually be OP.

With Picas fruit, all we have is the functions we are exposed to. We don't know the full mechanics but so far, Im happy to go with what the Manga has shown and the fruit is not exactly special. Crocos fruit can turn a grassland into a dessert, that is OP as hell. The guy can drain all the moister from your body... That is OP as hell. These are things we are exposed to.

Law has been defeat multiple times tho... quite easily. Give his DF to Vegapunk and I garuntee you that Vegapunk utilizes it far better than Law ever could. Don't you think?

The df in the hands of a more competent fighter is far stronger than it being in the hands of a less competent fighter.

 

[Nie Li]

I disagree that he was stronger than Vergo. Can't say vs Diamante. But Vergo was shown as someone who had extreme haki, he could do exactly what Zoro did. Pica certainly has an advantage given his power, but Vergo doesn't seem like someone that power would work on.

Tbh Diamante was a huge disappointment to me, although I'm glad he served to give Kyros some screentime.
I have trouble picturing some of the characters being fast and strong enough to pull off what Zoro did. Not to hype up Zoro, but because Zoro's first slash wasn't expected at all by Pica who didn't know Zoro had been launched at him from the back, and it was that slash that divided the golem and didn't let Pica run away through the statue's feet. It was certainly a sneak attack victory.

Whether those characters are fast enough or not to do so is the only real difference in our viewpoints here.

I certainly don't think Pica is weak either. I just think he is Yonko Commander level. And my arguments have been as such.

He is a strong NW vet. Level character but thats it. Any one competent enough in combat by NE standards certainly wouldn't find him TOO MUCH to handle.

I'm not saying Pica could handle a Yonkou, Katakuri or Marco. Katakuri specifically has shown to be able to perform barrages of huge punches faster and stronger than Luffy could at Dressrosa, so he's a good candidate to beat Pica to a pulp.

Also, thinking of the yonkous, Whitebeard's fruit sounds like the natural counter to Pica. That'd be the easiest win.

Who would you thing is stronger.

Pica as he is or Doflamingo with Pica's df?

Doflamingo's ability to utilize his df in ways we have never seen before or Pica who cuts and runs the first chance he gets? Who would you pick in a fight? Genuinely curious

I think I said it in another post: I agree with you that Pica's fruit would be better off on the hands of someone stronger, more brave or with better haki. I'm not arguing against that. I'm only defending that Pica's specific fruit is one of those that make the user very hard to beat no matter who he is, even if he doesn't bring out it's full capabilities.
Although my point now only stands if they fight on a rock-based environment like Dressrosa.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Tbh Diamante was a huge disappointment to me, although I'm glad he served to give Kyros some screentime.
I have trouble picturing some of the characters being fast and strong enough to pull off what Zoro did. Not to hype up Zoro, but because Zoro's first slash wasn't expected at all by Pica who didn't know Zoro had been launched at him from the back, and it was that slash that divided the golem and didn't let Pica run away through the statue's feet. It was certainly a sneak attack victory.

Whether those characters are fast enough or not to do so is the only real difference in our viewpoints here.


I'm not saying Pica could handle a Yonkou, Katakuri or Marco. Katakuri specifically has shown to be able to perform barrages of huge punches faster and stronger than Luffy could at Dressrosa, so he's a good candidate to beat Pica to a pulp.

Also, thinking of the yonkous, Whitebeard's fruit sounds like the natural counter to Pica. That'd be the easiest win.


I think I said it in another post: I agree with you that Pica's fruit would be better off on the hands of someone stronger, more brave or with better haki. I'm not arguing against that. I'm only defending that Pica's specific fruit is one of those that make the user very hard to beat no matter who he is, even if he doesn't bring out it's full capabilities.
Although my point now only stands if they fight on a rock-based environment like Dressrosa.

Well said. I think you and I found some middle ground here.

Good debate so far

 

[thedude]

I certainly don't think Pica is weak either. I just think he is Yonko Commander level. And my arguments have been as such.

He is a strong NW vet. Level character but thats it. Any one competent enough in combat by NE standards certainly wouldn't find him TOO MUCH to handle.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 7, 2020 ---

Who would you thing is stronger.

Pica as he is or Doflamingo with Pica's df?

Doflamingo's ability to utilize his df in ways we have never seen before or Pica who cuts and runs the first chance he gets? Who would you pick in a fight? Genuinely curious

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 7, 2020 ---

WB with the Quake Fruit vs Buggy with the Quake fruit?

Who are you picking to win


Law has been defeat multiple times tho... quite easily. Give his DF to Vegapunk and I garuntee you that Vegapunk utilizes it far better than Law ever could. Don't you think?

The df in the hands of a more competent fighter is far stronger than it being in the hands of a less competent fighter.

We've never seen Vegapunk, let alone seen him fight, so I'm not sure we can say he'd use it better than Law

 

[Pirate Queen]

We've never seen Vegapunk, let alone seen him fight, so I'm not sure we can say he'd use it better than Law

He the world's smartest man tho, which is what I based my comment on lol

But I get ya

 

[thedude]

Tbh Diamante was a huge disappointment to me, although I'm glad he served to give Kyros some screentime.
I have trouble picturing some of the characters being fast and strong enough to pull off what Zoro did. Not to hype up Zoro, but because Zoro's first slash wasn't expected at all by Pica who didn't know Zoro had been launched at him from the back, and it was that slash that divided the golem and didn't let Pica run away through the statue's feet. It was certainly a sneak attack victory.

Whether those characters are fast enough or not to do so is the only real difference in our viewpoints here.


I'm not saying Pica could handle a Yonkou, Katakuri or Marco. Katakuri specifically has shown to be able to perform barrages of huge punches faster and stronger than Luffy could at Dressrosa, so he's a good candidate to beat Pica to a pulp.

Also, thinking of the yonkous, Whitebeard's fruit sounds like the natural counter to Pica. That'd be the easiest win.


I think I said it in another post: I agree with you that Pica's fruit would be better off on the hands of someone stronger, more brave or with better haki. I'm not arguing against that. I'm only defending that Pica's specific fruit is one of those that make the user very hard to beat no matter who he is, even if he doesn't bring out it's full capabilities.
Although my point now only stands if they fight on a rock-based environment like Dressrosa.

Agree with this.

Pica's fruit has a few counters. Crocodile would make quick work of him. Oven could heat the rock quickly making Pica run out quickly. Earthquake fruit would also mess him up.

But that's not a strike against him really, each DF has a counter. So then it's up to how the user can fight without it, or how strong they've made their fruit. Pica's is very strong, like we both said, he can become massive and cause real destruction. I just think good haki users like Vergo would beat him in a serious fight.

 

[nik87]

Let's step it up a notch. Put Cracker, Jack and Queen together against Pica.
Explain, through their feats, how they will defeat Pica.
All 3 have 0 DC feats. Queen, arguably the strongest of the 3 was defeated by simply being thrown into rocks.
Now, a mountain is falling on him, how will he not be defeated and his two companions at the same time?

 

[jaymizzo]

Law has been defeat multiple times tho... quite easily. Give his DF to Vegapunk and I garuntee you that Vegapunk utilizes it far better than Law ever could. Don't you think?

The df in the hands of a more competent fighter is far stronger than it being in the hands of a less competent fighter.

I agree with you as I don't think I'm arguing against a person ultilising a DF better or that their combat strength may play a part, I'm saying the DF properties don't change.

Op Op no mi is still OP regardless of user because of its utility i.e. you don't need to be Yonko tier to really wreck face e.g. personality swap, as these powers are built into the fruit itself.

Picas fruit so far we have only seen one trick and that trick is not exactly threatening to anyone competent.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 7, 2020 ---

Let's step it up a notch. Put Cracker, Jack and Queen together against Pica.
Explain, through their feats, how they will defeat Pica.
All 3 have 0 DC feats. Queen, arguably the strongest of the 3 was defeated by simply being thrown into rocks.
Now, a mountain is falling on him, how will he not be defeated and his two companions at the same time?

Jack survived an attack from Zunisha and wasn't phased much, Picas damage isn't going to really make much difference. Not sure how this would go as we have yet to see a full

Queen has his plague, literally all he needs to do is keep the poisons going (the Golem is not solid, it has openings).

Cracker - this is difficult, but Cracker is as competent a swordsman so id assume he would perform the same as Zoro did.

Edit: Got a bit carried away at the end. I think its a good question but its hard to answer as these guys have very little showings.