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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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You have good points, but seeing Luffy will want face Yonko being Kaido, Sanji and Zoro have to prove themselves in being YC lvl in facing YC lvl opponent which could be team-up fights against all Yonkos and YCs, so Sanji could team with Macro to face King or someone with Queen while Zoro could face Orochi, Smoothie or maybe Queen with team with him in facing them. Just like Luffy will fight with a team while still facing more on Kaido after it all.
Yeah the Flying 6 seem to be the SH's opponents this arc... Who's Who vs Zoro should be good f it is revealed he is the most skilled swordsman of the beast pirates.
And if he's narrowing In on Luffy the Zoro has no choice but to step in between Who's who and Luffy.
Zoro could be as cool as Marco and say something like, "You can't reach the King so easily"
I am sure you are hallucinating and making stuff up in your fantasy.
Quote those things you mention, if you cant quote them, forget them.
Swords>anything else is proven in this chapter.
Zoro being smacked away? Post panels.
Your favorite character Orochi? The dead fodder Orochi? And Kanjuro the dead?
Zoro is the one to take out Kaido, Luffy lacks the means to put him down for good.
You forgetting lore of Orochi in real life? Way he got his head cut he is definitely coming back. I mean if Pound can survive, why not someone with DF who cutting their heads mean nothing for that and Kanjuro wasn't dead first time we thought when he got attack. Just saying think of possibilities and Zoro taking his place in facing them or T6H.
I got panels of him fainting and another running from Apoo. Want me to show you that? Zoro is not going to solo or beat anyone especially Kaido if Gifters are enough to stop his process lol. Imagination isn't' Oda's canon no matter how you try to push 'sword issues' when we all know Luffy gets major antagonist while Zoro get those lesser and doesn't interfere in his captain's fights. You got nothing to backup on your points at all even after everyone told you about this talk before between the two.
Yeah the Flying 6 seem to be the SH's opponents this arc... Who's Who vs Zoro should be good f it is revealed he is the most skilled swordsman of the beast pirates.
And if he's narrowing In on Luffy the Zoro has no choice but to step in between Who's who and Luffy.
Zoro could be as cool as Marco and say something like, "You can't reach the King so easily"
Idk about that as King with his flying around give me fears it be Pica situation again as Zoro will need to chase him around and rather not deal with another case of fighting like that and rather be Sky Fight with Sanji vs King while Zoro can get Queen who is more grounded to him, but if Orochi does get revived by his abilities, I can see him or Zoro vs Smoothie on how he can face another female swordswoman since that is rare to see.
You forgetting lore of Orochi in real life? Way he got his head cut he is definitely coming back. I mean if Pound can survive, why not someone with DF who cutting their heads mean nothing for that and Kanjuro wasn't dead first time we thought when he got attack. Just saying think of possibilities and Zoro taking his place in facing them or T6H.
I got panels of him fainting and another running from Apoo. Want me to show you that? Zoro is not going to solo or beat anyone especially Kaido if Gifters are enough to stop his process lol. Imagination isn't' Oda's canon no matter how you try to push 'sword issues' when we all know Luffy gets major antagonist while Zoro get those lesser and doesn't interfere in his captain's fights. You got nothing to backup on your points at all even after everyone told you about this talk before between the two.
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Idk about that as King with his flying around give me fears it be Pica situation again as Zoro will need to chase him around and rather not deal with another case of fighting like that and rather be Sky Fight with Sanji vs King while Zoro can get Queen who is more grounded to him, but if Orochi does get revived by his abilities, I can see him or Zoro vs Smoothie on how he can face another female swordswoman since that is rare to see.
YC level enemies is basically anything between the 3 calamities and the topo robi (and maybe the numbers). At the moment I would still maintain that zoro or sanji taking on calamities is waaaaaaaay above their current paygrade though. As I have said before, any calamity (or top 3 yonko commander) is a bigger threat than doflamingo and basically nothing we have seen actually justifies or merits that ridiculous jump. Then again luffy did went from doflamingo to cracker/karakuri so in that regard all bets are off at least. Zoro's best feat in the new world remains basically pica... who is maybe and somewhat optimistically on the low end of yonko commanders in general. So taking even a mid tier yonko commander would be a feat for him. For sanji in turn his best feat in the new world is... non existent. fighting and winning against anything with a name would be huge for him. Well, there is the page one bit but the guy is a bit of a joke to begin with. I suppose we can't rule out oda having sanji fight page one after the guy gets his ass handed to him for the eight time or so.
And elaborating on what I ahve said earlier: I think zoro will deal with the samurai from wano. Zoro has a rather deep connection to wano through his village and possibly blood so him dealing with them would make sense.
And perhaps to make this more complete... sanji will deal with the oniwabanshu. Sanji lacks ties to wano but his invisibility is probably a good tool to deal with them.
Granted that neither sanji or zoro will likely deal with all the soldiers, but perhaps with just a few of them or the big names there.
Of course, in this scenario the two would steer clear off yonko executives... which is the sort of disservice oda has consistently handed both his characters and readers. And who knows, oda even has them deal with those forces through his favorite medium... off screen.
I understand you want development into facing YCs which is why they could get warm-up fights, but it's not farfetch for Oda to skip them up into facing stronger enemies from those who they couldn't handle to now able to like Enies Lobby since they were powerless to people like Blueno when first encounter, but now they skip above him to take out Jabra and Kaku who are above Blueno in his power lvl, so wouldn't say it is out there for this to happen especially Oda doesn't give rematches when outcomes are shown on position as Sanji already beaten PO, so no reason to see him again unless you see Luffy vs Holdem since he wasn't knockout either for good, so don't think it driving to that and going above enemies they already dominant over them before. If Luffy is aiming to want to face Yonkos, he expect his crew to be ready especially his main forces of Sanji, Zoro, and Jimbei (Debating on him) to be YC lvl positions so them getting involve in facing YC lvl opponents in this arc can happen, but looking to be in team fights than solo give how things are going.
Given this arc is huge development in crew evolving their fighting and power, would say Oda will push them to extreme to get stronger form war even if we have more arcs ahead as got start showing development into surpassing Roger Pirates down the line. Not saying one-go in this arc, but it could be starting point of that if they manage to take on Yonko and their crew at their best and defeat them. Could be possibility, so we can't rule that out either.
Nah, no thanks. After Pica fight, I don't want see it turning that way as give me how and why King wouldn't fly away or want to face someone else like Macro over Zoro along why downgrade him to not fly when he wants to around the fight as same Pica chooses to move around instead of confronting Zoro more head-on. Not saying this over Zoro, but I just don't want an fight like that again, I want a full frontal, not run and attack type of fight. Sanji vs King works out more in Sky Fight we can see while Zoro can get Orochi, Smoothie, or maybe Queen. Just saying about the possibilities is all.
They can, but Idk it be final fight worthy though (Maybe for Zoro given his performance) as Luffy and Sanji push to be above them easily in their encounters. Though they can be opponents for Usopp, Franky, Brook, Robin, Nami, and Chopper as good development to be YV lvl from the fights.
You forgetting lore of Orochi in real life? Way he got his head cut he is definitely coming back. I mean if Pound can survive, why not someone with DF who cutting their heads mean nothing for that and Kanjuro wasn't dead first time we thought when he got attack. Just saying think of possibilities and Zoro taking his place in facing them or T6H.
I got panels of him fainting and another running from Apoo. Want me to show you that? Zoro is not going to solo or beat anyone especially Kaido if Gifters are enough to stop his process lol. Imagination isn't' Oda's canon no matter how you try to push 'sword issues' when we all know Luffy gets major antagonist while Zoro get those lesser and doesn't interfere in his captain's fights. You got nothing to backup on your points at all even after everyone told you about this talk before between the two.
Orochi lost purpose the moment Kaido sliced his head off. If he comes back it will be only so he can get raped again not only by Kaido but by everyone...
Zoro fainting and saving Luffy from Apoo is not "Zoro being smacked away" so you have to provide panels for "smacked away" if you have...
Zoro soloing Kaido has always been a product of your imagination, you cant quote anyone else saying that.
Zoro killing Kaido is backed up by plenty of things, for example, being the only guy in Wano who can actually do it.
Given his performance on Gifters and debunk he would 'Whiskey Peak' them, I wouldn't overhype on that especially Oda won't let Zoro outshine Luffy who wants Kaido for himself and be one to bring him down. Zoro won't get the chance given many tough enemies he is facing and Kaido is more aware on his surroundings now after latest chapter.
Though think Zoro get his spotlight in facing his tough opponents with a team behind him especially for YC lvl opponent.
How long will you keep going on with this nonesense? There is no way Luffy will beat kaido (probably the strongest character rn) one on one unless he gets massive help. Even Oda said he is not quite sure how Lufdy and co will win this one.
Even if you seem to hate this idea Zoro will participate in defeating Kaido along with Kidd, Law and the rest.
How long will you keep going on with this nonesense? There is no way Luffy will beat kaido (probably the strongest character rn) one on one unless he gets massive help. Even Oda said he is not quite sure how Lufdy and co will win this one.
Even if you seem to hate this idea Zoro will participate in defeating Kaido along with Kidd, Law and the rest.
That's the narrative he's been pushing for years read any of his posts for reference.
Anyways seeing how strong the scabbards are how do you think Zoro compares to them?
Then explain why Oda had him use 1 sword and 2 sword in Daz Bones and Zombie Ryuma as again if full power is always 3 sword, he wouldn't beat those 2 who he was struggling with especially Daz Bones could have kill him on that fight despite able to take all his 3 swords. It been skill and always been that. I am not doubting Zoro isn't skill when he use 3 sword style, but even if he down to other styles, they are just as skill given how he was train to be good at each style, not just that one.
Zoro's main style is santouryu and the fact that he does have certain strong techniques with other swords doesn't take away from that. Whenever he uses less than three swords in a fight, he's weaker, because his main weapon is the three swords, not one or two, period.
Zoro fought Ryuuma without a third sword, so yes: Zoro was nerfed during that fight.
I'll only summarize it: Yes, it's about the skill, and Zoro is way more skilled using three swords, how that's so hard to understand after almost 1000 chapters is beyond me.
Zoro knows how to fight with other number of swords, yes, but they're not his main style. If he's serious, he uses three. He has strong attacks using other styles, but he's not strong and not as versatile with them.
- Zoro didn't have his three swords when the fight against Mr.1 ended because Mr.1 disarmed him and he only could pick up one sword. He used one because he only had one. Zoro grew stronger in the last seconds of the fight against Daz Bones. One could also argue he woke a bit of haki for that last attack from how he sensed the position of the sword and "heard the breath of the plants, the rocks, and of Mr.1's metal".
- Zoro didn't have three swords either in his fight against Ryuuma; he only had two, so what's your point? In neither of your two examples Zoro had the choice of using three swords to finish off his opponents. And even then, the fight against Ryuuma using nitoryu was an easy one. He got 0 damage from the fight and still went on to fight Oars and then Kuma and then tank all of Luffy's damage on top of his own, all in one night. "Zombie Ryuuma" had Brook's shadow, so the only thing it had about the actual Ryuuma was his body and the strength of his muscles. His techniques and his personality were that of Brook (as pointed out by Brook himself), which is why even if he was stronger than Brook, he was weaker than Zoro.
Nah, not changing it, but your missing point of what I asking and haven't discuss about fights I told you with Daz and Ryuma. Let's keep things one at a time if you want to debate certain aspect then. Just using examples, but doesn't mean I am going off topic.
That's not where I'm telling you you're changing the topic, at least pay attention to the part I'm answering to.
I only commented on Denjiro's fight and you answered bringing up Killer and Apoo. That's going offtopic.
Zoro is stronger using three swords not because "three is more than one so he's stronger", but because that's his proper fighting style. The one which he's got way more training in since he was a kid and has continued doing so all his life. Of course, as Zoro's haki and physical strength increases, his nitoryu and itoryu are also improved because his stats get higher, but those styles will never be as strong as his santouryu. If Zoro doesn't have his three swords, he's weaker, because he's less skilled, or you think he bothers carrying three swords and training santouryu just because it looks cooler?
Also, your point about Mihawk defeating him with a knife is void. Of course Mihawk beat him because he's more skilled, but that has nothing to do with anything. Mihawk wouldn't get stronger by using santouryu because he's not trained in it as far as we know and he's more comfortable using only his black huge katana.
How long will you keep going on with this nonesense? There is no way Luffy will beat kaido (probably the strongest character rn) one on one unless he gets massive help. Even Oda said he is not quite sure how Lufdy and co will win this one.
Even if you seem to hate this idea Zoro will participate in defeating Kaido along with Kidd, Law and the rest.
That's the narrative he's been pushing for years read any of his posts for reference.
Anyways seeing how strong the scabbards are how do you think Zoro compares to them?
Yeah the Flying 6 seem to be the SH's opponents this arc... Who's Who vs Zoro should be good f it is revealed he is the most skilled swordsman of the beast pirates.
i thought we only know that Who's who was holding a katana is all we know, do we know for sure he's the strongest swordsmen among the beast pirates???
At the current moment, its clear that the akazaya 9 will be the ones taking down Kaido and perhaps they'll fail which will set it up for the supernova to get a shot against him... So...
I second this, and think its the most likely. Zoro vs King is bound to happen, and Sanji will fight Queen or King.... Queen would be good to see too, with Komurosaki angle against him with a few gags here and there....
I wouldn't mind if he fights Jack too....
Idk about that as King with his flying around give me fears it be Pica situation again as Zoro will need to chase him around and rather not deal with another case of fighting like that and rather be Sky Fight with Sanji vs King while Zoro can get Queen who is more grounded to him, but if Orochi does get revived by his abilities, I can see him or Zoro vs Smoothie on how he can face another female swordswoman since that is rare to see.
You are actually making the best case for Zoro vs King....
And what do you mean Pica situation? Zoro beat Pica in one the best ways we've seen in the story....
Agreed, that Sanji's sky walk and flaming leg or even raid suit levels any advantage that King has, but Oda has always used one on one fights to highlight and show growth amongst the strawhats. Every fight Sanji's been, hes grown stronger and likewise, Zoro too... Pica battle was to show how big and far Zoro's slash can go, his improved haki.. its all about overcoming handicaps.
So given that quick movement is a handicap for Zoro, and the Enma being a sword harder to control, fighting King will set up the perfect way to showcase both, an improved observation haki, and controlling Enma and even possibly making it black. It will set it up for a perfect narrative for Zoro.. Lets not forget Zoro has been foreshadowed with cutting fire twice too.... one time when he took down Mr 5 with his blades and body burning, IIRC Zoro said flaming swords can be useful, and the second time finding Kinemon's technique of cutting fire down. That fits it better.
I just dont see Queen posing a challenge in the same manner. Queen is bulky and clearly cant move fast enough will be a sitting duck for Zoro. One possibility of a challenge would be strong haki but it'll have to be something to the extent that Queen's armamnet is the strongest we've seen and all. And even if that is the case, it will be a better way to highlight Sanji's progression with Haki, sicne we know he's expertizse is observation and not armament...
Also, i keep saying this that OP is not about power levels, the narrative is always the most critical element of the story. I can imagine Zoro fans saying King vs Zoro is apt for Zoro cos he is the strongest Motherfucker on the planet and can slice a diamond with one finger on the blade. BUt that doesn't fit the narrative. If you feel narrative-wise, Sanji vs King is better, lets hear it, cos the argument that Zoro cannot handle King doesn't hold water....
Pica is extremely hard to place in tiers system which has always been flawed...
Pica was all about his DF, the strength of his actual body wasnt relevant and doesnt affect the performance of the stone golem.
Whether the same DF is used by Buggy or by Kaido, a mountain of stone will be a mountain of stone, no different than when Pica is controlling it.
Besides, Zoro told to Pica that he is a whole another tier and that he doesnt stand a chance against him.
The only issue against Pica was going through all that amount of stone.
Zoro had to release a tons of Haki for those mountain slashes and it exhausted him decently. Such amount of DC doesnt come free of charge...
The issue here is that you expect the same trajectory for Zoro that you saw from Luffy, that's flawed way of looking at it.
Zoro doesnt have to go through Chinjao, Doffy, Cracker, Katakuri to fight Kaido, he can directly go to Kaido.
Law and Kidd havent gone through the same either and they will go against Kaido too. Zoro is no different.
Besides, we saw how effective swordsmen are compared to punchers like Luffy, those "hard" fights Luffy had wouldnt be hard for Zoro.
Chinjao is couple of seconds job, one-shot material for Zoro. Cracker wouldnt stand a chance for long since biscuits are no issue for Zoro.
Doffy would probably hide behind his awakening until Zoro rips through it with ISDS or SS or Oni Giri... Law who is significantly inferior to Zoro physically was keeping up with Doffy pretty solidly, if he had Zoro's haki and attack power he could have easily won...
Katakuri wouldnt have an easy time against Zoro's AoE's, Mochi based attacks would be cut apart, Mogura would probably last until his defeat.
When the opposition is Mihawk for 2 years, all these guys look nothing in comparison to that. It is no wonder that Zoro was talking a walk in the park through the New World. We even found out that the reason why he got lost on komainu is because Kaido would have died to Zoro in ch 923...
I understand you want development into facing YCs which is why they could get warm-up fights, but it's not farfetch for Oda to skip them up into facing stronger enemies from those who they couldn't handle to now able to like Enies Lobby since they were powerless to people like Blueno when first encounter, but now they skip above him to take out Jabra and Kaku who are above Blueno in his power lvl, so wouldn't say it is out there for this to happen especially Oda doesn't give rematches when outcomes are shown on position as Sanji already beaten PO, so no reason to see him again unless you see Luffy vs Holdem since he wasn't knockout either for good, so don't think it driving to that and going above enemies they already dominant over them before. If Luffy is aiming to want to face Yonkos, he expect his crew to be ready especially his main forces of Sanji, Zoro, and Jimbei (Debating on him) to be YC lvl positions so them getting involve in facing YC lvl opponents in this arc can happen, but looking to be in team fights than solo give how things are going.
Given this arc is huge development in crew evolving their fighting and power, would say Oda will push them to extreme to get stronger form war even if we have more arcs ahead as got start showing development into surpassing Roger Pirates down the line. Not saying one-go in this arc, but it could be starting point of that if they manage to take on Yonko and their crew at their best and defeat them. Could be possibility, so we can't rule that out either.
Ah, it's definitely not far fetched for oda to do that (I've said a number of times oda can do what he wants). But to be fair at ennies lobby, even in a rather awkward way, oda 100% set up pretty much those matches to be dealt with with whatever powerups the strawhats were getting. And still, for the vast majority of the series there has been a progression for how the strawhats grow. It'd be a pretty new phenomenom that oda straight up does not evidence the strawhat's growth that allowed them to defeat new enemies. Add to that, we actually saw how much it cost luffy to get here. Well, it wasn't much in some ways due to the convenience of haki but at least we saw those bits and they evidence his rather poorly written growth. But... what about zoro and sanji there? Who have they defeated? Where is their haki at? Does it make sense for them to take on doflamingo+ threats based on the power they have evidenced so far? Does it make sense for their power to keep up with that sort of threat? Sanji's power hasn't even properly evolved for that matter, all he got is a new suit... At least zoro gets a potentially potent haki upgrade.
Overall, the core issue remains the lack of development the strawhats have had. So there are no good options for oda. Realistically speaking the story simply does not justify zoro or sanji taking on king/queen/jack level threats. Even with luffy it took a fair amount of help (half of dressrosa and law against doflamingo) and then BS (haki convenience) for him to take on such people. Zoro might have some haki convenience going for him but it'd have the same problems as when luffy did it (namely it being BS). Sanji does not even have haki convenience going for him. And if you look at the other strawhats... It'd be absurd if the lot of them could face proper yonko executives. If zoro takes on king it probably means the likes of doflamingo are about an annoyance for him rather than a threat. If sanji takes on queen then he can probably do about the same... Brook and franky are about the strawhat's mid level fighters so to speak and... Come on, does anyone buy them taking on mid level yonko executives? Oven, perospero, whoever follows vista in WB's crew.... Alternatively the strawhats could face people which the story actually justifies the facing but... That only means the strawhats in this arc won't take out any big names in kaido's crew, at least on their own. As in, zoro maybe takes out a topo robi or number or samuria as his big contribution, sanji gets his rematch he doesn't need or want against page one, franky and brook take on some nameless headliners... An kaido's big names get taken out in a collaborative effort by whoever runs into them. Overall, neither scenario is in any way satisfactory simply because oda neglected developing the strawhats in favor of a bunch of people whose fights will be mostly off screen. Fuck, half of dressrosa was spent in building up luffy's pirate armada and the fucking thing is not even in wano....
What's mochi ground going to do to Zoro?
No different than mochi ceiling...
Both will be cut apart no different than Pica manipulating everything around Zoro while in the castle...
How do you think Zoro will manage to cut Katakuri though? Luffy was able to generate extreme speed to overcome that, how would Zoro manage? Katakuri would be able to dodge everything with his future sight....
Well, luffy used future sight and a speed oriented version of gear 4 to get an edge on katakuri. The fact remains that nothing we have seen from zoro so far would enable him to overcome katakuri's overall skills. Even if we assume zoro uses ashura it remains wildly optimistic that katakuri would be hit by it. On top of that katakuri isn't exactly a one trick pony. His armor haki was also more than strong enough to overcome luffy's (as evidenced by his cube shaped haki or whatnot). It took gear four for luffy to overcome katakuri's armor haki... And then the guy's sheer flexibility when using his fruit and awakening.
Orochi lost purpose the moment Kaido sliced his head off. If he comes back it will be only so he can get raped again not only by Kaido but by everyone...
Zoro fainting and saving Luffy from Apoo is not "Zoro being smacked away" so you have to provide panels for "smacked away" if you have...
Zoro soloing Kaido has always been a product of your imagination, you cant quote anyone else saying that.
Zoro killing Kaido is backed up by plenty of things, for example, being the only guy in Wano who can actually do it.
Ask Pound on how he came back then? Orochi is coming back especially DF shows on situation it works to. Zoro retreated from Apoo which is a fact and he fainted to nerf Kamazou which is another fact. His performance to show he is 'stronger' has not been the case at all and just your imagination to say he is above Luffy when he isn't at all. No evidence like that as well he interfere in his Captain's fight who stated he want Kaido more himself, not his crewmate to take him. Also Scabbards look like they be ones to be apart of how Kaido falls than Zoro as he isn't on same level as them as shown when Denjiro had no trouble besting him and he was faking to be a bad guy lol.
Zoro will get his moments, but not like that or anything compare to what Luffy is going to do in the war.
How long will you keep going on with this nonesense? There is no way Luffy will beat kaido (probably the strongest character rn) one on one unless he gets massive help. Even Oda said he is not quite sure how Lufdy and co will win this one.
Even if you seem to hate this idea Zoro will participate in defeating Kaido along with Kidd, Law and the rest.
That's the narrative he's been pushing for years read any of his posts for reference.
Anyways seeing how strong the scabbards are how do you think Zoro compares to them?
Come back to me when your ready to be honest with your fault on your theory 'Zoro will be first or with Luffy to hurt Kaido' when Scabbards just take that way from you this chapter. Same man who couldn't get past Gifters without help is now going to overtake Kaido solo? Again, stopo giving into imagination and be honest for once as we all know Zoro won't participate in fights his Captain can handle. Don't push false narration cause you can't accept Luffy > Zoro in situations like these.
i thought we only know that Who's who was holding a katana is all we know, do we know for sure he's the strongest swordsmen among the beast pirates???
At the current moment, its clear that the akazaya 9 will be the ones taking down Kaido and perhaps they'll fail which will set it up for the supernova to get a shot against him... So...
I second this, and think its the most likely. Zoro vs King is bound to happen, and Sanji will fight Queen or King.... Queen would be good to see too, with Komurosaki angle against him with a few gags here and there....
I wouldn't mind if he fights Jack too....
You are actually making the best case for Zoro vs King....
And what do you mean Pica situation? Zoro beat Pica in one the best ways we've seen in the story....
Agreed, that Sanji's sky walk and flaming leg or even raid suit levels any advantage that King has, but Oda has always used one on one fights to highlight and show growth amongst the strawhats. Every fight Sanji's been, hes grown stronger and likewise, Zoro too... Pica battle was to show how big and far Zoro's slash can go, his improved haki.. its all about overcoming handicaps.
So given that quick movement is a handicap for Zoro, and the Enma being a sword harder to control, fighting King will set up the perfect way to showcase both, an improved observation haki, and controlling Enma and even possibly making it black. It will set it up for a perfect narrative for Zoro.. Lets not forget Zoro has been foreshadowed with cutting fire twice too.... one time when he took down Mr 5 with his blades and body burning, IIRC Zoro said flaming swords can be useful, and the second time finding Kinemon's technique of cutting fire down. That fits it better.
I just dont see Queen posing a challenge in the same manner. Queen is bulky and clearly cant move fast enough will be a sitting duck for Zoro. One possibility of a challenge would be strong haki but it'll have to be something to the extent that Queen's armamnet is the strongest we've seen and all. And even if that is the case, it will be a better way to highlight Sanji's progression with Haki, sicne we know he's expertizse is observation and not armament...
Also, i keep saying this that OP is not about power levels, the narrative is always the most critical element of the story. I can imagine Zoro fans saying King vs Zoro is apt for Zoro cos he is the strongest Motherfucker on the planet and can slice a diamond with one finger on the blade. BUt that doesn't fit the narrative. If you feel narrative-wise, Sanji vs King is better, lets hear it, cos the argument that Zoro cannot handle King doesn't hold water....
Zoro needed help to catch to Pica to able to beat him, Zoro never solo him by himself when he needed help getting to his body and not to say King isn't strong in taking care himself in close combat, but why would he not try to fly around and mess around with him as it feels inconsistent to nerf him not to do that when he has unique way of fighting as shown early.
Idk anything about that for Zoro as his performance doesn't push he is on level to mess around with King to get him if his enemies made him more the hype tool than him being above them about it. Enma doesn't seem to be how it is to be hype level if Gifters were stopping him to advance forward until Allies came to help him out. I don't see Oda making Zoro able to take on YC lvl opponent without team at this point and Queen isn't to be underestimate since it's clear he was powerful enough to damage BM to give back her memories, so his durability and power is on more compare to Zoro to take in straight fight especially his Haki to boot. Don't see him just slicing and overpowering him like that as it take more than that to defeat someone when they can take a lot like Queen show and we haven't seen his full power along with King and Jack.
I get you on narrative, but it's not pushing to him and King to face though compare to other narrations on where it's leading him. Sanji on his narration after beating one of T6H and All Star Candidates who were sent by YC to take him out pushes more he is ready to face them which could lead either to King or Queen depending. There is potential of seeing a Sky Fight with him on King along with similar traits about their person and design to push that they could collide. Especially way of using fire is another signal to say they could collide with each other as well.
Not saying I am doubt on Zoro facing YC lvl opponent, but no way I can see him solo one without help on who he face is all. Cause it looks like all Yonkos and YCs will need to be team up on.
Ah, it's definitely not far fetched for oda to do that (I've said a number of times oda can do what he wants). But to be fair at ennies lobby, even in a rather awkward way, oda 100% set up pretty much those matches to be dealt with with whatever powerups the strawhats were getting. And still, for the vast majority of the series there has been a progression for how the strawhats grow. It'd be a pretty new phenomenom that oda straight up does not evidence the strawhat's growth that allowed them to defeat new enemies. Add to that, we actually saw how much it cost luffy to get here. Well, it wasn't much in some ways due to the convenience of haki but at least we saw those bits and they evidence his rather poorly written growth. But... what about zoro and sanji there? Who have they defeated? Where is their haki at? Does it make sense for them to take on doflamingo+ threats based on the power they have evidenced so far? Does it make sense for their power to keep up with that sort of threat? Sanji's power hasn't even properly evolved for that matter, all he got is a new suit... At least zoro gets a potentially potent haki upgrade.
Overall, the core issue remains the lack of development the strawhats have had. So there are no good options for oda. Realistically speaking the story simply does not justify zoro or sanji taking on king/queen/jack level threats. Even with luffy it took a fair amount of help (half of dressrosa and law against doflamingo) and then BS (haki convenience) for him to take on such people. Zoro might have some haki convenience going for him but it'd have the same problems as when luffy did it (namely it being BS). Sanji does not even have haki convenience going for him. And if you look at the other strawhats... It'd be absurd if the lot of them could face proper yonko executives. If zoro takes on king it probably means the likes of doflamingo are about an annoyance for him rather than a threat. If sanji takes on queen then he can probably do about the same... Brook and franky are about the strawhat's mid level fighters so to speak and... Come on, does anyone buy them taking on mid level yonko executives? Oven, perospero, whoever follows vista in WB's crew.... Alternatively the strawhats could face people which the story actually justifies the facing but... That only means the strawhats in this arc won't take out any big names in kaido's crew, at least on their own. As in, zoro maybe takes out a topo robi or number or samuria as his big contribution, sanji gets his rematch he doesn't need or want against page one, franky and brook take on some nameless headliners... An kaido's big names get taken out in a collaborative effort by whoever runs into them. Overall, neither scenario is in any way satisfactory simply because oda neglected developing the strawhats in favor of a bunch of people whose fights will be mostly off screen. Fuck, half of dressrosa was spent in building up luffy's pirate armada and the fucking thing is not even in wano....
I see what you mean if you feel it too much skipping into it a bit. Also what you mean? Sanji defeated PO easily and Zoro couldn't last much on enemies until Enma, but that doesn't seem to be case much as Enma not doing as much as we thought. Though it can make sense to face YC by team-ups with others to bring them down so make sense without feeling too much BS on the fast development either. Also Sanji's Haki development is apparent, Idk where you think he still lacking when he was capable of taking out T6H himself and without suit he was able to tank on Kanjuro's ship destroying Ink Arrows without damage. He been evolving as everyone get stronger after each arc when getting prepare to fight new threats as it's not something new as mention above Enies Lobby is apparent on how their growth could evolve more into or during the fights. Think your underestimating characters on how they evolve in arcs over years in OP as it's not that far off nor does Oda do rematches either on enemies they already beaten as if that case Blueno would be someone Zoro and Sanji need to face off in EL Arc, but instead surpass him by beating stronger enemies than him.
It's not necessarily development will be need of rematches or showing on-screen development on how they went to that point as times it implies or shown who they face they gotten stronger and ready for bigger challenges. True Luffy been taking more of the fights, so we don't have clear on how stronger rest of the crew, but doesn't mean they haven't been preparing and training off-screen to reach for next lvl of getting stronger and keep up since it's only getting more tougher as they continue in waters and doubt Luffy be the only one to reach another lvl by himself while the others don't.
I'm bringing here this conversation about Zoro before we get our comments deleted from the weekly convo.
Most of the things you're asking me I already answered them two posts ago.
I'll cut out the important parts for you:
Zoro knows how to fight with other number of swords, yes, but they're not his main style. If he's serious, he uses three. He has strong attacks using other styles, but he's not strong and not as versatile with them.
- Zoro didn't have his three swords when the fight against Mr.1 ended because Mr.1 disarmed him and he only could pick up one sword. He used one because he only had one. Zoro grew stronger in the last seconds of the fight against Daz Bones. One could also argue he woke a bit of haki for that last attack from how he sensed the position of the sword and "heard the breath of the plants, the rocks, and of Mr.1's metal".
- Zoro didn't have three swords either in his fight against Ryuuma; he only had two, so what's your point? In neither of your two examples Zoro had the choice of using three swords to finish off his opponents. And even then, the fight against Ryuuma using nitoryu was an easy one. He got 0 damage from the fight and still went on to fight Oars and then Kuma and then tank all of Luffy's damage on top of his own, all in one night. "Zombie Ryuuma" had Brook's shadow, so the only thing it had about the actual Ryuuma was his body and the strength of his muscles. His techniques and his personality were that of Brook (as pointed out by Brook himself), which is why even if he was stronger than Brook, he was weaker than Zoro.
That's not where I'm telling you you're changing the topic, at least pay attention to the part I'm answering to.
I only commented on Denjiro's fight and you answered bringing up Killer and Apoo. That's going offtopic.
Zoro is stronger using three swords not because "three is more than one so he's stronger", but because that's his proper fighting style. The one which he's got way more training in since he was a kid and has continued doing so all his life. Of course, as Zoro's haki and physical strength increases, his nitoryu and itoryu are also improved because his stats get higher, but those styles will never be as strong as his santouryu. If Zoro doesn't have his three swords, he's weaker, because he's less skilled, or you think he bothers carrying three swords and training santouryu just because it looks cooler?
Also, your point about Mihawk defeating him with a knife is void. Of course Mihawk beat him because he's more skilled, but that has nothing to do with anything. Mihawk wouldn't get stronger by using santouryu because he's not trained in it as far as we know and he's more comfortable using only his black huge katana.
Agree to Disagree, but that doesn't really remove factor on what I said it's about his skill though. Whether he likes using 3-sword style more as his main or not is irrelevant as how he was taught is to value all the styles and that his skill is important factor on being better in a fight or holding a sword. You can't say he was holding back his power in either of those fights if he choose to defeat his enemies with the other styles than what he usually do. He always go serious in sword fights like those and use his full power in those moments. He is still the same person given his skill, yes he favor 3-sword style, but even without it, Oda pushes he can still beat someone with other 2 styles even with major foes at the time, so there is no difference he loses power or his skill using the others as he still giving his full best with his blades.
Mihawk states he lack skill in his weapons if a knife like his could stop them with ease, not numbers nor design of a weapon, but skill of the user. The weapons don't give you powers, it's you who make them good as they are. It does have something to do with this as it was one of the important lessons in his swordsmanship he was taought on. Being WSS, pretty sure he could do his style just same and outdo Zoro given his skill. Yeah he favor using his own style, but doesn't mean if he switch weapons, it make him lose his edge as long it's a bladed weapon as knife shows he can easily best anyone by his skills in outcome of the fight.
Don't mind going back and forth, but sooner later we going have to stop on this so we don't cloud too much on this topic over this, so let's leave it as that since we already left our mark in Chapter thread today.
I see what you mean if you feel it too much skipping into it a bit. Also what you mean? Sanji defeated PO easily and Zoro couldn't last much on enemies until Enma, but that doesn't seem to be case much as Enma not doing as much as we thought. Though it can make sense to face YC by team-ups with others to bring them down so make sense without feeling too much BS on the fast development either. Also Sanji's Haki development is apparent, Idk where you think he still lacking when he was capable of taking out T6H himself and without suit he was able to tank on Kanjuro's ship destroying Ink Arrows without damage. He been evolving as everyone get stronger after each arc when getting prepare to fight new threats as it's not something new as mention above Enies Lobby is apparent on how their growth could evolve more into or during the fights. Think your underestimating characters on how they evolve in arcs over years in OP as it's not that far off nor does Oda do rematches either on enemies they already beaten as if that case Blueno would be someone Zoro and Sanji need to face off in EL Arc, but instead surpass him by beating stronger enemies than him.
It's not necessarily development will be need of rematches or showing on-screen development on how they went to that point as times it implies or shown who they face they gotten stronger and ready for bigger challenges. True Luffy been taking more of the fights, so we don't have clear on how stronger rest of the crew, but doesn't mean they haven't been preparing and training off-screen to reach for next lvl of getting stronger and keep up since it's only getting more tougher as they continue in waters and doubt Luffy be the only one to reach another lvl by himself while the others don't.
Sanji has maybe once evidenced high level haki. which is when he dodged the mochi bullet katakuri threw at him... And that is it for sanji's haki feats. He has never even shown hardened haki which is less than the bare minimum for fighters who are relevant in the new world. Zoro at least knows how to project haki which is a fairly advanced skill and mastering emma will help him improve that. But sanji... just doesn't have anything going for him. So you have sanji who is supposed to be one of the strawhats big guns and he has not shown even the bare minimum haki wise and there is no indication yet that he is at least getting that. Sanji did take kanjuro's attack but that doesn't seem like much of a feat. it's not like i am suggesting sanji is made out of paper, just that while luffy and zoro are getting haki upgrades he is still barely showing the basics in that regard and his powerups seem to be more connected to his suit...
don't get me wrong, i am sure the strawhats have upgrades coming their way in general. But the calamities or sweet commanders are god damn strong by any metric. As I have said any of those is a bigger threat than doflamingo... So anyone capable of soloing any one of them obviously has to be insanely powerful. And even then in yonko crews you have mid and low tier executives.... some of whom are probably still about in doflamingo's tier. And nothing has happened to justify zoro's and sanji's sudden leap to that level... let alone other strawhats suddenly being able to handle other pirates of executive caliber. Can you imagine franky or brook suddenly taking on people like oven or perospero? Imagine if before the timeskip back at sambaody it suddenly turned out that half the strawhat crew were suddenly stronger than lucci. As in, not only luffy, zoro and sanji but also franky, brook and ussop... And in this case we would be talking about even bigger leaps than that considering that haki is basically the core of combat in OP and even sanji has only displayed very mediocre haki (no hardening and maybe some level of prediction which still wasn't enough to outmaneuver doflamingo) and the rest of the crew at best knows it exists. Franky does have the advantage of his power being related to technology and nami having zeus is actually a huge deal though. But still... sanji, brook, ussop, choper and robin are pretty much nowhere haki wise and have not evidenced anything to suggest they can do without it.
