Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
I really don't get it. A sick WB made everyone shit themselves the moment he got serious. Fucking Akainu with his overconfidence looked like he was about to bust a turd the moment WB with killing intent was behind him.
There is absolutely no way to debate that WB was not the strongest pirate alive even when he was sick. Kaido would never have dared to go after WB had it not been for the war. BB would never have had the opportunity to even touch WB had it not been for the war. The Marines needed some heavy advantages to even contend with this man and for some reason, Mihawk, someone who is not held even in the same regard as Admirals, was stronger or equal because swords? Bruh.
The above posters are spot on, no matter how much mental gymnastics you do, Mihawk does not come out looking good after that statement. He did not try to measure the distance against anyone else on the enemy side but WB because im sure he felt confident enough to stand against them, but he had to measure whatever he was measuring against WB.
Speaking of which, going to go watch Akainu get ragdolled by WB.
@Pirate Queen
The Ryuujin Jaka moment is just too much! Oh how I would love to be discussing Bleach right now.
Fuck, I understand why Nik hates plot armour now. Akainu should really have died.
I have never seen a top tier shit themselves like in the first 5 seconds.
But the thing is that a fairly healthy WB and Shanks (a man who is arguably Mihawk’s inferior) were clearly portrayed as equal so an extremely sick Whitebeard being stronger than Mihawk is unlikely. Heck Kizaru arguably got the better of him during their brief fight near the execution platform though WB was weakened by this point by Akainu and Squardo among others
Now Mihawk could have been referring to Prime WB, and the let’s see how far he has fallen translation could work for that.
But my interpretation was always more like Mihawk wanting to see just how strong WB was or whether he was really as strong as they say. Or it’s even possible Mihawk’s opinion of WB was overly high, Mihawk may have never seen WB fight and instead based his opinion of WB on all the hype he had heard about the WSM, the greatest pirate alive, etc. And there is always the possibility Mihawk grew significantly in strength during the timeskip.
And more importantly I just cannot see WB being stronger than Garp AT ANY POINT IN TIME.
There’s also the statement in the ace novel saying WB was weaker than Kaido...
Honestly I think Mihawk’s statement was just Oda hyping WB up and trying to communicate to the reader how much of a badass he was. I don’t think it has all that much relevance to actual powerscaling. Especially as it could have easily been just been talking about WB’s destructive power with his DF instead of actual effectiveness at 1v1 combat. WB may have more destructive power than but not necessarily be superior to say Mihawk or Garp in terms of 1v1 combat ability.
Renember WB was called the WSM when Roger was alive so there is at least a little doubt in the title. It could easily just be referring to Brute strength. Pre-FS Boundman Luffy was definitely stronger than Katakuri but that didn’t stop him from getting wrecked, there is more to a fight than strength... speed, skill, observation Haki, etc.
Also some of Mihawk’s power may come from his sword (recent chapters do seem to imply swords have a consciousness and powers of their own) Mihawk is actually Mihawk + Yoru’s powers + the inherited will/Haki of previous owners of his sword and previous comrades and enemies.
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Honestly all the man is saying is that he wants to see how strong WB really is... there isn’t really an admission of inferiority anywhere here. This has got to be one if the most exaggerated panels in existence.
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IMO Shanks would push Primebeard to like extreme diff and Mihawk would beat Shanks extreme diff so Mihawk and Primbeard are at around the same level.
Even if Mihawk is below PWB, he’s still above the Yonko.
Mihawk vs Shanks is banned but you can probably guess how I feel about it.
Big Mom seems to primarily be a swords(wo)man and is thus probably inferior to Mihawk.
Mihawk > Oden > Kaido
And BB‘s kryptonite is non-DF users so Mihawk has him there.
But the thing is that a fairly healthy WB and Shanks (a man who is arguably Mihawk’s inferior) were clearly portrayed as equal so an extremely sick Whitebeard being stronger than Mihawk is unlikely. Heck Kizaru arguably got the better of him during their brief fight near the execution platform though WB was weakened by this point by Akainu and Squardo among others
Now Mihawk could have been referring to Prime WB, and the let’s see how far he has fallen translation could work for that.
But my interpretation was always more like Mihawk wanting to see just how strong WB was or whether he was really as strong as they say. Or it’s even possible Mihawk’s opinion of WB was overly high, Mihawk may have never seen WB fight and instead based his opinion of WB on all the hype he had heard about the WSM, the greatest pirate alive, etc. And there is always the possibility Mihawk grew significantly in strength during the timeskip.
And more importantly I just cannot see WB being stronger than Garp AT ANY POINT IN TIME.
There’s also the statement in the ace novel saying WB was weaker than Kaido...
Honestly I think Mihawk’s statement was just Oda hyping WB up and trying to communicate to the reader how much of a badass he was. I don’t think it has all that much relevance to actual powerscaling. Especially as it could have easily been just been talking about WB’s destructive power with his DF instead of actual effectiveness at 1v1 combat. WB may have more destructive power than but not necessarily be superior to say Mihawk or Garp in terms of 1v1 combat ability.
Renember WB was called the WSM when Roger was alive so there is at least a little doubt in the title. It could easily just be referring to Brute strength. Pre-FS Boundman Luffy was definitely stronger than Katakuri but that didn’t stop him from getting wrecked, there is more to a fight than strength... speed, skill, observation Haki, etc.
Also some of Mihawk’s power may come from his sword (recent chapters do seem to imply swords have a consciousness and powers of their own) Mihawk is actually Mihawk + Yoru’s powers + the inherited will/Haki of previous owners of his sword and previous comrades and enemies.
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Honestly all the man is saying is that he wants to see how strong WB really is... there isn’t really an admission of inferiority anywhere here. This has got to be one if the most exaggerated panels in existence.
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IMO Shanks would push Primebeard to like extreme diff and Mihawk would beat Shanks extreme diff so Mihawk and Primbeard are at around the same level.
Even if Mihawk is below PWB, he’s still above the Yonko.
Mihawk vs Shanks is banned but you can probably guess how I feel about it.
Big Mom seems to primarily be a swords(wo)man and is thus probably inferior to Mihawk.
Mihawk > Oden > Kaido
And BB‘s kryptonite is non-DF users so Mihawk has him there.
1. The mental gymnastics needed to reach your conclusion is one I have yet to see... even from our less enjoyable members.
2. The Ace novel your refering to NEVER says Kaido is stronger. It is a quote from a character whose opinion is being given. He never met Kaido OR Whitebeard. He wouldn't know for sure who is the strong of the 2.
3. If Mihawk wanted to measure the power of WB but his attack wasn't even able to reach him, that tells you all you need to know. Mihawk can't even touch him. In the true translation Mihawk is admitting his infiriority to WB, thats a fact.
1. The mental gymnastics needed to reach your conclusion is one I have yet to see... even from our less enjoyable members.
2. The Ace novel your refering to NEVER says Kaido is stronger. It is a quote from a character whose opinion is being given. He never met Kaido OR Whitebeard. He wouldn't know for sure who is the strong of the 2.
3. If Mihawk wanted to measure the power of WB but his attack wasn't even able to reach him, that tells you all you need to know. Mihawk can't even touch him. In the true translation Mihawk is admitting his infiriority to WB, thats a fact.
3. All Mihawk wanted to do was test how strong WB was, you cannot draw any conclusions either way from it. Saying that Mihawk was admitting inferiority is mental gymnastics in its own right.
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Honestly if it is revealed that Rocks had a black blade then I am flat out rating Mihawk above Roger/Primbeard/Garp. If that ever happens Mihawk and Rocks will have their own tier above PK- Black blade tier. Maybe bring Ryuuma too.
But for now being in rhe same tier as the big 3 is fine.
3. All Mihawk wanted to do was test how strong WB was, you cannot draw any conclusions either way from it. Saying that Mihawk was admitting inferiority is mental gymnastics in its own right.
1 v1, always bet on Kaido. That was clearly said. However, we saw how Oden did defeat Kaido 1v1. Its probably false rumour until proven so. We also saw how Kaido and Big Mom fought and neither had any advantage. Anyway, the same Oden was defeated by Roger. The clash between Roger and Whitebeard was shown to be main focus point, not Oden. Clearly WB is stronger. So, WB > Oden > Kaido.
I didn't find the what I said. So that was most likely wrong.
However, in the Vivre card it said that Rayleigh and Shanks could both knock out 100K fishman while Luffy could only do 50K. This is my assumption and not written anywhere, that information on the Vivre card is putting Shanks and Rayleigh on the same scale. Shanks is a Yonko, so Rayleigh is the same tier.
Are we really discussing Mihawk > WB. Please stop replying to NikWhis.
Honestly, I get disappointed when somebody says something so outrageous and people actually keep it going by replying back to them.
If I were to say, Morgan is stronger than Coby, I expect you guys to ignore me and not acknowledge my statement, especially if I have no proof.
I don't expect you guys to waste your time to reply to me, maybe just 1 or 2 replies telling me i am wrong or to show proof. But dont have a page full of replies.
Are we really discussing Mihawk > WB. Please stop replying to NikWhis.
Honestly, I get disappointed when somebody says something so outrageous and people actually keep it going by replying back to them.
If I were to say, Morgan is stronger than Coby, I expect you guys to ignore me and not acknowledge my statement, especially if I have no proof.
I don't expect you guys to waste your time to reply to me, maybe just 1 or 2 replies telling me i am wrong or to show proof. But dont have a page full of replies.
3. If Mihawk wanted to measure the power of WB but his attack wasn't even able to reach him, that tells you all you need to know. Mihawk can't even touch him. In the true translation Mihawk is admitting his infiriority to WB, thats a fact.
One single random normal flying slash that didn't even seem like a serious technique (both by Mihawk's posture and the lack of a name) not reaching WB because it was stopped by a character that's implied to be a tank doesn't mean a thing. The slash didn't have the intent to be particularly sharp so as to cut through haki empowered diamond, since that wasn't the target and he was just curious to see how WB would react to his slash, but that doesn't confirm Mihawk isn't able to cut through Jozu.
Jozu should also have been able to stop a normal flying slash from BM at that distance and it wouldn't have proved that Old Whitebeard > Big Mom.
There's no point for this kind of thread if variation of opinion is ignored.
Whis has his own points, and I do agree on his interpretation about Mihawk's line on Marineford.
One single random normal flying slash that didn't even seem like a serious technique (both by Mihawk's posture and the lack of a name) not reaching WB because it was stopped by a character that's implied to be a tank doesn't mean a thing. The slash didn't have the intent to be particularly sharp so as to cut through haki empowered diamond, since that wasn't the target and he was just curious to see how WB would react to his slash, but that doesn't confirm Mihawk isn't able to cut through Jozu.
Jozu should also have been able to stop a normal flying slash from BM at that distance and it wouldn't have proved that Old Whitebeard > Big Mom.
So then why attack at all? Your counter, on its face, is baseless because Mihawk "attacked" while wondering about WB's state but couldn't even get past the commander.
So Mihawk didnt know wtf he was talking about and his words were meaningless and baseless as were his actions.
Either way, Mihawk is weaker than Whitebeard.
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I did not mean for that to sound as confrontational as I did.
Mihawk claiming WB is weaker than expected and then throwing out a half assed attack to see what it would do to WB just makes Mihawk look like a clown.
And I'm saying that as someone who respects Mihawk.
So then why attack at all? Your counter, on its face, is baseless because Mihawk "attacked" while wondering about WB's state but couldn't even get past the commander.
So Mihawk didnt know wtf he was talking about and his words were meaningless and baseless as were his actions.
Either way, Mihawk is weaker than Whitebeard.
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I did not mean for that to sound as confrontational as I did.
Mihawk claiming WB is weaker than expected and then throwing out a half assed attack to see what it would do to WB just makes Mihawk look like a clown.
And I'm saying that as someone who respects Mihawk.
I'm saying that if Mihawk never expected his attack to land then what he did was pointless and meaningless and only proved that he couldn't reach WB even if he wanted to. He was all talk, and even his words were meaningless
He could have easily just done nothing. He knew his attack wouldn't have tickled. It wasn't even his strongest attack, as you are saying.
I'm saying that if Mihawk never expected his attack to land then what he did was pointless and meaningless and only proved that he couldn't reach WB even if he wanted to. He was all talk, and even his words were meaningless
He could have easily just done nothing. He knew his attack wouldn't have tickled. It wasn't even his strongest attack, as you are saying.
I never said Mihawk didn't expect his attack to land.
He was just curious to see how WB would react to his slash. There's no way he expected to actually cut and possibly defeat WB with a casual attack like the one he threw then. If that were his intention then he would have indeed been a clown.
His slash met with something very tanky on the way to WB and, apparently, Mihawk didn't foresee Jozu's intervention (but didn't care much about it either). And I mean VERY tanky. Whitebeard was damaged throughout the war by attacks weaker than that slash (like Squard's stab); attacks that Jozu with his DF and haki would have tanked.
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Hell, the slash he threw to WB was smaller than the one he cut the iceberg with, and that one was also a casual no-named effortless attack that was aimed at Luffy, a haki-less character that was only 1 meter away from him. That should be proof enough of how his attack towards WB couldn't have been more casual and simply as a means to study his reaction to it.
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I'll add something:
I'm not arguing right now that Mihawk > Whitebeard. I lack proof for that kind of debate. I'm only arguing the implications of that particular scene.
I never said Mihawk didn't expect his attack to land.
He was just curious to see how WB would react to his slash. There's no way he expected to actually cut and possibly defeat WB with a casual attack like the one he threw then. If that were his intention then he would have indeed been a clown.
His slash met with something very tanky on the way to WB and, apparently, Mihawk didn't foresee Jozu's intervention (but didn't care much about it either). And I mean VERY tanky. Whitebeard was damaged throughout the war by attacks weaker than that slash (like Squard's stab); attacks that Jozu with his DF and haki would have tanked.
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Hell, the slash he threw to WB was smaller than the one he cut the iceberg with, and that one was also a casual no-named effortless attack that was aimed at Luffy, a haki-less character that was only 1 meter away from him. That should be proof enough of how his attack towards WB couldn't have been more casual and simply as a means to study his reaction to it.
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I'll add something:
I'm not arguing right now that Mihawk > Whitebeard. I lack proof for that kind of debate. I'm only arguing the implications of that particular scene.
Mihawk is implied to have the best CoO in the OP verse and your counter point is that he attacked WB because he didnt know what would happen if he threw a flying slash at him? He didn't foresee what could happen if he attacked the Ruler of the Seas with his entire army present?
I dont buy that for a second.
Unless Mihawk attempted to insult WB with such a lackluster attack, no one can possibly believe that.
I'm sorry, your arguement just makes Mihawk look worse.
Mihawk is implied to have the best CoO in the OP verse and your counter point is that he attacked WB because he didnt know what would happen if he threw a flying slash at him? He didn't foresee what could happen if he attacked the Ruler of the Seas with his entire army present?
I dont buy that for a second.
Unless Mihawk attempted to insult WB with such a lackluster attack, no one can possibly believe that.
I'm sorry, your arguement just makes Mihawk look worse.
I fail to see how you come to those conclusions and how my reasoning makes Mihawk look worse.
CoO is unreliable when used against other CoO users (because "looking into the future" counters "looking into the future"). Katakuri had one of the best CoO confirmed we have seen and he was surprised when Sanji dodged a casual bullet from him. With the amount of strong CoO users at Marineford, there was no predicting what would happen to Mihawk's slash.
My reasoning is that Mihawk threw a casual slash just to test Whitebeard. Precisely because of how shrewd he is, that would have been enough for him to test him. He was curious about "The Strongest Man in the World". He was counting on WB reacting to the slash, probably parrying or blocking it (since dodging it would mean having the Moby Dick cut in half), and the strength he put behind the attack was just enough for that. Mihawk may not even know of Jozu's existence or of his DF (he didn't know about Buggy's DF existence either), so Jozu's durability being as high as if he was a high grade weapon himself, he blocked the attack.
What I believe is that if Mihawk intended to cut through Jozu he would take into account his durability and throw a sharper attack, just like Zoro can choose what he cuts and what he doesn't (Zoro's been able to since the Mr.1 fight, by his own dialogue and his teachers words, but if you want a proper example: Zoro was able to clash swords with Hyouzou and entertained him for a couple of minutes as if they were equal, until Zoro got bored and effortlessly vertically cut in half Hyouzou's 8 swords at the same time). Mihawk is just the same: he can slash with a guy like Vista. A flying slash can be stopped by an unforeseen enemy with very high durability. But neither of those mean he can't humiliate them if he were to get serious, which is why, as I always say, this topic is pointless until we get actual feats from "Serious Mihawk", because so far we have not seen any of his limits and that's what we need to know to rate him.
You don't think that Mihawk's slash was just a casual effortless slash and that it was somehow a particularly strong attack. And you believe that Mihawk having one of his "best slashes" blocked by a YC's body somehow makes him look better. Why?
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Actually, by your own last post. You're saying that you "don't believe for a second that Mihawk didn't foresee what would happen if he attacked Whitebeard". So do you think Mihawk knew his slash would be blocked by Jozu? Then why did he say he was going to test/measure Whitebeard? And why did he attack at all, seriously or casually, if according to you he should have known what would happen from his CoO?
Your point doesn't make sense here.
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Another thing I noticed:
Perhaps you believe that when I say "casual attack" it means that it's an attack that would fail to kill even small time pirates?
Not at all. What I'm saying is that it can be argued (and it's pretty clear to me) that the attack wasn't serious and not at all close to the best Mihawk can pull off, but his "casual slashes" are definitely top tier already, like the one that cut the iceberg.
Thinking that because it was casual and effortless for him means that it was a "weak" attack is like thinking that in One Punch Man "Saitama's Normal Punches are weak because they are not his Serious Punches". Not at all.
Mihawk, by his own words, only intended to test Whitebeard, not kill him there and then, and much less pierce through the tank that is Jozu. There's a panel of Mihawk with an exclamation mark when Jozu gets in his slash path, so he certainly didn't know that Jozu would get in its path or even that such a tanky man was there.
Not much different from a boxing throwing a couple of jabs to test his opponent but still having straights, uppercuts, and many more stronger punching techniques to deliver. Fitting for a chill, carefree man like Mihawk that we still have not seen put real effort into anything (nor take any damage from anything) that does most of what he does "just because".
This doesn't mean Mihawk's serious stronger attacks can actually kill Whitebeard or that Mihawk is as invincible as Saitama, that was just an example. Whitebeard was not a swordsman (his blade might be of the highest grade but it's not even a sword) and he was "the strongest man in the world", and he proved it. As I said before, that's not what I'm arguing here.
@Moegara I gotta just walk away from this one. I feel like I'm going in circles. I'm final word is that Mihawk was far more bark than bite in that instance and was well aware of the gap in power between him and Whitebeard. No half asked attack would have worked.
So WB had the strongest DF that almost killed Akainu with 2 hits, when old and dying, that could probably kill Akainu with 1 hit, when at his Prime, that needed 3 Admirals superior Haki to be stopped, and yet he was just "rivaling" with a sick but not dying Roger ? What did Roger had ? A sword and... hakis
So WB had the strongest DF that almost killed Akainu with 2 hits, when old and dying, that could probably kill Akainu with 1 hit, when at his Prime, that needed 3 Admirals superior Haki to be stopped, and yet he was just "rivaling" with a sick but not dying Roger ? What did Roger had ? A sword and... hakis
You are half right. Of course to keep such a thread going we all have different points to discuss, but what I mean is are we going to address every discussion point in this thread, to include the ones that are most absurd?
As per the example I gave, here is another.
Someone claims that Kyros could defeat Doflamingo alone.
That alone sounds ridiculous, will I bother replying telling them otherwise and to show proof of claim OR do I simply ignore it because I know it can not be true and why waste my time on a post like that.
It is a waste of time to bother explaining to them back and forth for several posts that they are wrong and ask for proof, even though they argue so and show no proof.
