One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

  • For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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  • We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

  1. Shanks v Mihawk
  2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
  3. Zoro > Luffy
  4. Zoro v Sanji
  5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
  6. Mihawk's rank within the story
  7. Law having CoC currently.
  8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

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Nie Li

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With all due respect that is way too limiting. There are fruits that don’t fall into either of those categories like Law or Hawkins or WB or BM or Senor Pink and so on.
I said mostly. There can be other categories, but there is just no fruit similar to what you suggest Jozu's fruit does, while one the other hand it's very similar to fruits from the first category I suggested.

About the examples you provided, they are indeed mode complex, yet Law produces an operation room and WB produces tremors so they're category 2.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Here. I even suggested Jozu might be from a third category, the thing is that it being so similar to one preexisting "kind" of Paramecia, it's much more likely to think it works like them, rather than thinking it works unlike no other we have seen so far:
If you want, you can claim that he's from a third category of paramecias: A category that only grants the power to transform the user's skin into a substance or thing, but for that category to truly be a thing I'd like to hear at least one single other example of a paramecia whose only power is "to transform the skin into something". Even Alvida's Paramecia that made her slippery somehow transformed her whole body and made her slim, proving it wasn't only skin-related.
 

I Am Atomic

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Category 1: Affects your body
Category 2: Affects surroundings
Category 3: Both (Katakuri)
 

Nie Li

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Category 1: Affects your body
Category 2: Affects surroundings
Category 3: Both (Katakuri)
That's a way to title the categories

Jozu definitely falls into category 1, and everyone in that category has their whole bodies changed rather than have the ability of coating their body in their... "element".

For Jozu to create an external diamond layer he should be from category 2, yet everyone on that category is able of projecting whatever they create far from their body, which Jozu can't.
 

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That's a way to title the categories

Jozu definitely falls into category 1, and everyone in that category has their whole bodies changed rather than have the ability of coating their body in their... "element".

For Jozu to create an external diamond layer he should be from category 2, yet everyone on that category is able of projecting whatever they create far from their body, which Jozu can't.
Perhaps an awakened user of the kira kira no mi can ?
 

HereNThere

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It's incredibly likely that Jozu is like Luffy. His entire body, inside and out, can become diamond. It makes no sense with the established system otherwise.

Paramecia fruits have a large amount of variety in abilities, but it's been extremely consistent in that aspect.

The only stand out is Katakuri and his was, appropriately, dubbed special. And even then, his fruit only gained the ability to produce his property after he awakened, so he would still fall under the first category regularly.
 

Nie Li

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Perhaps an awakened user of the kira kira no mi can ?
That may be possible.

I think we have only seen some confirmed awakened zoans at Enies Lobby, Katakuri and Doflamingo.

So we really have no examples yet of how an awakened paramecia from the first category would work like.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

It's incredibly likely that Jozu is like Luffy. His entire body, inside and out, can become diamond. It makes no sense with the established system otherwise.

Paramecia fruits have a large amount of variety in abilities, but it's been extremely consistent in that aspect.

The only stand out is Katakuri and his was, appropriately, dubbed special. And even then, his fruit only gained the ability to produce his property after he awakened, so he would still fall under the first category regularly.
So Katakuri may be an example of an awakened from the first category then. Jozu's and Luffy's awakenings may be similar to his.
 

Lord Rayleigh

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It's incredibly likely that Jozu is like Luffy. His entire body, inside and out, can become diamond. It makes no sense with the established system otherwise.

Paramecia fruits have a large amount of variety in abilities, but it's been extremely consistent in that aspect.

The only stand out is Katakuri and his was, appropriately, dubbed special. And even then, his fruit only gained the ability to produce his property after he awakened, so he would still fall under the first category regularly.
There are 4 categories of Paramecias in my own opinion - 1/ can produce matter (like Mr. 3, Magellan, Doflamingo) 2/ can alter his body (like Jozu, Mr. 2, Robin) 3/ body is permanently altered (like Luffy, Alvida) 4/ obtain special powers (Law, Kid, Brook, Big Mom). For Katakuri, my guess is that he has obtained multiple new abilities through his DF awakening (logia properties, alter his environment).
 
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HereNThere

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For Katakuri, my guess is that he has obtained multiple new abilities through his DF awakening (logia properties, alter his environment).
The argument I've seen for Katakuri that I think makes sense is that since his properties don't fall under the natural elements, it's why he's considered a Special Paramecia. So I think the Logia properties are innate, it's just the altering the environment that's awakening.
 

Nie Li

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The argument I've seen for Katakuri that I think makes sense is that since his properties don't fall under the natural elements, it's why he's considered a Special Paramecia. So I think the Logia properties are innate, it's just the altering the environment that's awakening.
I have never liked that explanation, yet it's definitely the correct one. It's really the same as a logia.
 

LadyVados

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Maybe categorising Paramecia like this is foolhardy ?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I mean not that it matters. Most Yonko have heat based attacks. Diamonds in real life blow up if you set them on fire.
 

McNuss

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The argument I've seen for Katakuri that I think makes sense is that since his properties don't fall under the natural elements, it's why he's considered a Special Paramecia. So I think the Logia properties are innate, it's just the altering the environment that's awakening.
No, that is wrong.

The difference is that Logias consciously transform. They are not fire, light or smoke. This was highlighted in Alabasta arc with Smoker, and then explained in an SBS.

Kakakuri is always Mochi just like Luffy is always Rubber. Note that Katakuri keeps a Trident inside of him all the time. Logias can't do that and whatever they absorb (Caribou, Blackbeard) enters another "pocket dimension".

The difference to Luffy is that he can also produce and manipulate infinite quantities of Mochi. So it is like a combination of Luffy's and Galdino's types of Paramecia fruits.
 

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If I’m not wrong, Oda said in the last SBS that Katakuri DF is a special Paramecia just because Mochi isn’t a natural element of nature, if not for this, he can be classified as a Logia. Logia is just elements of nature. I don’t remember where I read this, but it makes a lot of sense in my opinion
 

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Garp ordered the marine not to tell Sengoku that Rayleigh was spotted on Shabondy because the Marines could not face 2 legends (WSM + Dark King) at the same time.

Was this a hyperbole or a genuine concern for Garp?

Do you all think Rayleigh is seriously that much of a threat, that powerful? That he alone could have turned the tides of the war? I place Rayleigh just under Yonko, but what do you think happens if Rayleigh joined? Would WB and Ace have died?
 

LadyVados

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Garp ordered the marine not to tell Sengoku that Rayleigh was spotted on Shabondy because the Marines could not face 2 legends (WSM + Dark King) at the same time.

Was this a hyperbole or a genuine concern for Garp?

Do you all think Rayleigh is seriously that much of a threat, that powerful? That he alone could have turned the tides of the war? I place Rayleigh just under Yonko, but what do you think happens if Rayleigh joined? Would WB and Ace have died?
Based on Garp’s statements I’d say Rayleigh was around the same level as Whitebeard (as much as Zoro haters argue he’s weaker than Katakuri). Now do you think 2 Whitebeards would have changed the outcome of the war ? That is the question. An an argument could be made either way. You could say that the marines had their hands full with the one Whitebeard and 2 would mess things up. You could also say that Aokiji could engage Rayleigh while Akainu engages WB and they’d both be missing half of their heads in short order and it is downhill from there.
 

Monox D. I-Fly

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If I’m not wrong, Oda said in the last SBS that Katakuri DF is a special Paramecia just because Mochi isn’t a natural element of nature, if not for this, he can be classified as a Logia. Logia is just elements of nature. I don’t remember where I read this, but it makes a lot of sense in my opinion
So, if we take examples from another manga, will Orochimaru (who can disintegrate his body to snakes) count as Logia while Konan (who can disintegrate her body to paper) count as Paramecia? Since paper can't be formed naturally.
 

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So, if we take examples from another manga, will Orochimaru (who can disintegrate his body to snakes) count as Logia while Konan (who can disintegrate her body to paper) count as Paramecia? Since paper can't be formed naturally.
I wonder if crow man is a crow logia
 

Nie Li

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Garp ordered the marine not to tell Sengoku that Rayleigh was spotted on Shabondy because the Marines could not face 2 legends (WSM + Dark King) at the same time.

Was this a hyperbole or a genuine concern for Garp?

Do you all think Rayleigh is seriously that much of a threat, that powerful? That he alone could have turned the tides of the war? I place Rayleigh just under Yonko, but what do you think happens if Rayleigh joined? Would WB and Ace have died?
I'll tell you my take on Rayleigh.

I believe that Rayleigh is, individually, around as strong as Whitebeard. I don't really mind if barely weaker or really equal, but they should be around equals, mostly because everyone that's that strong is kind of like Akainu and Aokiji: if two individuals have to duke it out for days until one wins, none of the two is truly superior to the other. Not even the winner.

People currently praise Beckman for being the right hand man of Shanks, a man who with a small crew holds the same power and strength as the other yonkos, which implies that his crew needs to be very damn strong and, at least one or two of them, must be close to his own level or they'd just be attacked and overpowered by someone like Kaido and his army.

Now, think about the Roger pirates. They were just as few, if not fewer, than the Shanks pirates. Of course when people discuss the God Valley incident, all the focus is on the man who became the King of the Pirates and the man who became "the Legendary Marine", who teamed up together to take down an alliance of the men who later on became the Yonkos (+ Xebec + Shiki + probably other crewmates of their own level that may have died on that day). It is impossible for Roger and Garp to really hold of the merit for succeeding and I honestly do not believe that the two of them together were strong enough to defeat all those powerhouses, precisely because all those monsters are around the same level, and Xebec may have been even stronger. It's imperative for Roger and Garp to have been helped, and it probably wasn't only Rayleigh, but Rayleigh is definitely the first man that jumps to mind that was there that could have taken on one of the future Yonkos in that battle. Let's say that he didn't defeat a future Yonko that day (and there's no reason to believe that he didn't): he should have at least stalled one of them long enough for his captain to defeat Xebec. A man who can do that needs to be very damn strong.

There are still many mysteries surrounding Rayleigh in the manga: we can tell that he was a nobody before he met Roger (since Roger recruited him in a very similar way to how Luffy recruited Zoro, who was also a nobody back at the start of the series), yet for a man who's now only known as a "second in command", his epithet is "the Dark King". There must be a reason behind such an epithet. All epithets throughout the series are put for a reason, and it doesn't really make sense for a man to be called "King" when he wasn't even a captain, so I'm sure that at his prime he made or showed something to the world that made him earn such a name. It's even weirder if we take into account that his captain was the "King" of the Pirates that he would still be called "King" himself, and I'm sure that there will be an explanation for that in the future, and it will revolve around just how damn powerful he was as well.

I could also go on about how in his prime he was a swordsman who dressed just like Mihawk dresses now and I keep betting that he's Mihawk's master, which indirectly hypes up both of their strengths, and it would explain how is it that Mihawk and Shanks became rivals in the first place.



So, yes, Rayleigh is that much of a threat, but as it happens with Mihawk, he does not have a crew, and that's a huge point, because Yonkous are not only overpowered pirates; they're overpowered pirates with huge crews to support them. Make Whitebeard walk into Marineford all alone and he wouldn't even make it to the plaza despite his power, but make Whitebeard, all of his commanders and allies walk into Marineford and he would have succesfully rescued Ace if Ace hadn't turned around in the last moment.

Throw Rayleigh, Mihawk or Shanks alone there and the same happens, they don't make it to the plaza, because they're outnumbered not only by weaklings but also by pretty strong and annoying characters like Jozu and by other monsters like Akainu, Garp and Aokiji. Numbers matter a lot.

There were many characters that held back during the Marineford war, particularly the Shichibukai and some of the pirates, so it's not like they couldn't have also stopped Rayleigh (who is way past his prime even if he remains a monster) if they tried harder. Aokiji and Kizaru in particular were still very fresh and they're both monsters. However, there would have been a lot more of casualties from the marines; perhaps even an admiral would have died or become maimed.

However Rayleigh would have never been able to stop the war like Shanks did, precisely because Shanks brought his crew, together with Beckman and other monsters. That's the main difference between these characters.
 

HereNThere

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So, if we take examples from another manga, will Orochimaru (who can disintegrate his body to snakes) count as Logia while Konan (who can disintegrate her body to paper) count as Paramecia? Since paper can't be formed naturally.
Konan would for sure.

Orochimaru, if he were in this series, and Karasu may be considered Special Zoans perhaps? Or a different form of Awakening.
 

Luke Beifong

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Konan would for sure.

Orochimaru, if he were in this series, and Karasu may be considered Special Zoans perhaps? Or a different form of Awakening.
Yeah, perfect. They can be considered Special Zoans. Maybe Tamago is a Special Zoan too.
 
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