One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

The argument isn’t baseless. Look what Kaido did to Luffy after WCI....*Kaido was also drunk

Also BM in a west state Punched & Slammed Queen into a a brief K.O.

While the Straw Hats Helsman has traded blows with BM. The flip was just impressive combo attack to BFR BM for a few chapters.

Jimbei imo equal or stronger than Commander seat 2 Ace.

Huh? I'm saying Jinbei is very strong, and that it's weird that anyone would think him even remotely weak. He should be up there helping Luffy and the others take on the two Emperors.

 

[LadyVados]

Huh? I'm saying Jinbei is very strong, and that it's weird that anyone would think him even remotely weak. He should be up there helping Luffy and the others take on the two Emperors.

I think what he's trying to say is that if Luffy and Queen got effortlessly stomped by Yonko, Jinbe holding his own is an outlier

 

[Core D. Roy]

I went on a fool's errand and tried to make a table with tiers.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

If they think this

Is PIS they don't know what Plot Induced Stupidity actually is.

i think jinbei has a stout impressive defense , but i think big mum was clearly a tad diminished, i do think jinbei isn't as fast or agile in comparison to how fast and tough he is

 

[LadyVados]

I went on a fool's errand and tried to make a table with tiers.

I like this tier list though I would put Mihawk above Big Mom for a couple of reasons.

 

[Core D. Roy]

I like this tier list though I would put Mihawk above Big Mom for a couple of reasons.

I'm pleased that most of the pushback I've gotten is very specific instances that are already things I've struggled with.

I think it's meaningful to keep Mihawk and Shanks about equal. "World's Strongest X" always seems to duff up proper tier rankings.

 

[LadyVados]

I'm pleased that most of the pushback I've gotten is very specific instances that are already things I've struggled with.

I think it's meaningful to keep Mihawk and Shanks about equal. "World's Strongest X" always seems to duff up proper tier rankings.

I just can’t see any swordfighter being stronger than Mihawk. It wouldn’t make sense for story reasons. Big Mom being stronger than Mihawk also ruins the emotional impact of Kuina’s backstory.

 

[M3J]

PUtting Mihawk above Big Mom makes no sense and just sounds plain stupid. Plus, with that logic, Mihawk being stronger than Big Mom or an emperor ruins the story/Luffy's character because he wants to beat the strongest fighters, but if Mihawk is Zoro's opponent, then he wouldn't be able to achieve that.

Mihawk is just a superior swordsman, but probably not a fighter.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I went on a fool's errand and tried to make a table with tiers.

Luffy too low in my opinion, but great chart!

 

[Nie Li]

PUtting Mihawk above Big Mom makes no sense and just sounds plain stupid. Plus, with that logic, Mihawk being stronger than Big Mom or an emperor ruins the story/Luffy's character because he wants to beat the strongest fighters, but if Mihawk is Zoro's opponent, then he wouldn't be able to achieve that.

Luffy defeating the strongest fighters is not part of his dreams nor of his set character arc. It's just a coincidential part that simply happens because they're standing in the way of his actual dream.

However, even if Mihawk were stronger than Big Mom, Luffy will still be defeating the strongest fighters, since Big Mom is going down before the likes of Blackbeard or the Gorosei anyway, Mihawk could just rank anywhere in the middle. Either way, Kaido is the strongest and he's surely going down now by Luffy's hand. It's okay for at least one of the top tier fighters to go down by someone else's hand.

Mihawk is just a superior swordsman, but probably not a fighter.

There is no way in the One Piece world to prove that you're more skilled with a sword without defeating other people, which is what the whole deal with Zoro's dream has always been about: defeating the strongest to prove that he's the strongest, not showing off in some weird skill competition.

I'll never understand why despite the overwhelming hype given to swordsmen that also never tried to become Yonkous (Rayleigh and Oden) and even swordsmen that have become Yonko (Shanks) some fans have trouble imagining Mihawk as at least potentially Yonko-level. For all we know, Shanks, too, could be stronger than Big Mom. No matter how peaceful his ways are, he must be on their level to take some territories and not be eliminated by the others, so there's no definite proof to say how Shanks ranks between the other Yonko.

Not to mention Big Mom has bothered learning sword skills and wields a sword for a reason and these are so far some of her most devastating attacks. If a character surpasses her in swordskill (which includes CoA applied to the sword, as we know that this is part of swordsmanship), she wouldn't have an easy time against the guy, and she could even logically lose. It'd come down to the rest of her skills, but so far I haven't seen Zeus or Prometheus as being much stronger than her strength with Napoleon. If someone is superior than her at using her weapon of choice (and thus, at applying CoA on the offensive as well), said person is a good candidate to making her bleed.

It can definitely be argued that Big Mom would win, but there's nothing plain stupid about saying otherwise.


Now, on a somehow related rant about Rayleigh:

Spoiler: The rant

I've just watched Stampede. I had only read summaries until now. Some things about the film we know for sure are not accurate, which lowers the overall credibility of the movie (like Apoo making Luffy explode and dealing him no damage), but there's one thing that caught my attention: The direct comparisons with Rayleigh.

Douglas Bullet may not be canon, but as every movie villain he was designed by Oda. In his case, unlike Shiki, he reallly did show off impressive stuff in the movie, especially haki-wise, he was a monster. It was cool to see that his CoO was still not better than Katakuri's but that he could still easily take on Snakeman. Ignoring the movie feats, that are worthless, he was designed as a guy who could play with all the Supernova without effort using only haki and overpowering strength, but he was also designed as one of those lucky people who on top of being strong haki users had overpowered an overpowering Devil Fruit power. There are devil fruits that are just stronger than others. Like it's not the same to have Marco's or Wapol's Devil Fruit, regardless of how capable their user is. In this case we had Douglas as an overpowered haki-user (on the level to play with Supernovas as if they were children) who also had an overpowered devil fruit which on top of that was awakened. And he was still considered "as someone who was on Rayleigh's level".
Ignoring concrete feats, and keeping in mind the villain and his backstory and powers were still designed by Oda, this would mean Rayleigh (or Prime Rayleigh at least) was a swordsman with enough strength to make up for such an overpowered haki-user + his awakened devil fruit advantages.

Rayleigh, to me, serves as hints of Mihawk's strength. It's rather obvious that there's a personal connection between them, but even if anyone wants to deny this, there's still the superficial "he's also just a swordsman" connection that's more than enough on its own to hype Mihawk as someone who is necessarily equal or stronger to Prime Dark King.

 

[Shasha23]

Huh? I'm saying Jinbei is very strong, and that it's weird that anyone would think him even remotely weak. He should be up there helping Luffy and the others take on the two Emperors.

Has it ever crossed your mind that the 5 up there are stronger than him?
Beside there are countless strong people who are not up there also, because it's not their fight, the narrative is pretty clear that the most powerful young generation of pirates will come and beat Kaido, and as we know the most powerful rockies who want to beat Kaido are all up there with the exception of Drake

 

[Nie Li]

Has it ever crossed your mind that the 5 up there are stronger than him?
Beside there are countless strong people who are not up there also, because it's not their fight, the narrative is pretty clear that the most powerful young generation of pirates will come and beat Kaido, and as we know the most powerful rockies who want to beat Kaido are all up there with the exception of Drake

Not to mention Jinbei is 46 years old. He's way younger than Big Mom, sure, but he's not exactly a pirate of the new generation, and this fight is supposed to be a symbol of new vs old.

 

[goldb]

A question, where does the assumption that the Gorosei or Im are capable fighters come from...let alone mid/high tier as some users rank them? Is it just based on the fact that they are high ranking members of the WG or is there more to it?

 

[Nie Li]

A question, where does the assumption that the Gorosei or Im are capable fighters, let alone mid/high tier as some users rank them? Is it just based on the fact that they are high ranking members of the WG or is there more to it?

As far as I know, there's absolutely nothing more to it.

The Gorosei in particular gave off the impression of being strong because one wielded a katana and another one had a scar, and they were awfully calm in front of Shanks. Most Tenryubito and the likes would piss themselves despite their usual arrogance if they were in front of a Yonko.

WG are assumed to be the "last enemy" of the manga after Luffy reaches Laugh Tale, so some people assume the Gorosei will serve as the last enemies to defeat for overthrowing the WG and bringing real change to the world, with Im possibly serving as the last boss of the manga in said scenario.

This is entirely conjectural and there's nothing even barely proved. They could all turn out to be fodders.

As a sidenote, I don't dislike the theory of Im serving as some sort of last boss because I'd enjoy him being awfully strong and having some connection to Mihawk (due to being the only two characters with hawk eyes).

 

[The Prince of Darkness]

A question, where does the assumption that the Gorosei or Im are capable fighters, let alone mid/high tier as some users rank them? Is it just based on the fact that they are high ranking members of the WG or is there more to it?

I don't know about Im but the Gorosei does look like veterans warriors directly under Im-sama.
If the theory of them being kinda Immortals then they could be 800 years old warriors.
And the way the one with the sword treat bis sword, which is probably one of the Great Blades, makes it look like he still training and stay in shape

 

[Nie Li]

I agree on the threat Vergo was.
Don’t agree he’s that close to Law. With his heart I think Law low diff him with a lot less damage taken. Smoker is somewhat close but isn’t stronger, faster or has better Haki.

I want to address this on this thread.

Law completely no-diffed Vergo after he got his heart back: He defeated him in a single attack, but I still think Vergo was close to his level.

It's true that Law was previously dominated because Vergo held his heart in his hand, but even beyond that, Vergo showed to be faster than him. At the very beginning of the fight, Law immediately got his heart back with Shambles but, before he could react, Vergo blitzed him with a soru and badly injured him to take the heart back. Speed-wise, the heart is not an excuse here since it was not on Vergo: Law simply didn't react in time.

There are two reasons why Law no-diffed him, according to me.
The first reason is that Law's offensive haki capabilities were indeed far superior to Vergo's haki durability, which is very impressive in itself.
However, the second reason is that Vergo severely understimated Law and his attack power because he misgauged exactly how strong he would have gotten by now.

Law would win in most scenarios, but at least mid-diff if Vergo had actually taken him seriously. Just his speed feat alone is enough to guarantee being a troublesome opponent.

 

[XXGenesis]

I want to address this on this thread.

Law completely no-diffed Vergo after he got his heart back: He defeated him in a single attack, but I still think Vergo was close to his level.

It's true that Law was previously dominated because Vergo held his heart in his hand, but even beyond that, Vergo showed to be faster than him. At the very beginning of the fight, Law immediately got his heart back with Shambles but, before he could react, Vergo blitzed him with a soru and badly injured him to take the heart back. Speed-wise, the heart is not an excuse here since it was not on Vergo: Law simply didn't react in time.

There are two reasons why Law no-diffed him, according to me.
The first reason is that Law's offensive haki capabilities were indeed far superior to Vergo's haki durability, which is very impressive in itself.
However, the second reason is that Vergo severely understimated Law and his attack power because he misgauged exactly how strong he would have gotten by now.

Law would win in most scenarios, but at least mid-diff if Vergo had actually taken him seriously. Just his speed feat alone is enough to guarantee being a troublesome opponent.

FacePalm.....I’ve been hyping Vergo in PH for years, now this. Lol.

Law imo low-mid Diff Vergo w/o Heart retrieval as a condition. Which hampered his fighting style.

Law’s DF is strong but his fighting style isn’t impeccable. Smoker avoided his DF for some time & Vergo took advantage of his gestures & time needed to form a room within the space between the two.

This is why I believe Zoro has better Haki feats & swordsmanship will defeat Law.

 

[LaGOAT]

Apoo is quite hard to figure out in power scaling, but I seriously doubt he is on Zolo's level.

What really irks me is that people base their power scales on EOS characters or try so hard to replicate Roger's friends/rivals onto Luffy. Who's gonna be the next Garp or Shiki or WB or Rayleigh. Like forget about that right now, we will worry about that when the time comes. Now it's not the time. For example, Coby might be the next Garp therefore he must be strong by EOS, or Kid/Law will be the next WB/Shiki therefore they must be equal to Luffy even though there has been no indication of strength that Kid or Law are anywhere near Luffy's current level and I dont think they will personally catch up anytime soon.
Kid has not fought anyone near Luffy's level. Law hasnt shown any progress since he lost to Doffy. So I still place Law below Doffy.
Until the latest chapter I had place Marco above Luffy but now it has changed.

Exactly I hate it when ppl do that like we all know luffy might be the strongest pirate and zoro will be the greatest swordsman like worry about now and focus all those stuff when the time comes

 

[slavkovski]

FacePalm.....I’ve been hyping Vergo in PH for years, now this. Lol.

Law imo low-mid Diff Vergo w/o Heart retrieval as a condition. Which hampered his fighting style.

Law’s DF is strong but his fighting style isn’t impeccable. Smoker avoided his DF for some time & Vergo took advantage of his gestures & time needed to form a room within the space between the two.

This is why I believe Zoro has better Haki feats & swordsmanship will defeat Law.

Well.. if you want to win when fighting Law is you have to know how he use his ability, Doflamingo & Vergo seems to know it, and Zoro & the SH crew suppose to know this also.. but what about people that dont know it?
Potentially Law could easily defeat anybody who doesnt know how is his ability works...

btw.. i have this question regarding Law and the Doflamingo pirates, after Corazon died, did Law ever meet up with Doflamingo and his crew? or is he travel alone? did this ever mention in the manga?

 

[albertwv]

My take on Mihawk... hopefully this doesnt get taken down.
People believe he is equal to or stronger than the Yonko likes of Shanks and BM. For a few reasons, he was stated to duel younger Pre-Yonko Shanks when the latter had 2 arms but after he lost an arm, Mihawk lost interest in their duels. People think becuase of that Mihawk > Shanks. Oda, stated that even though Shanks lost an arm, he never lost strength, so Mihawk > 1 arm Shanks is NOT true. If anything Shanks > Mihawk, because Shanks became Yonko soon after.

Another reason is hype. Mihawk has not been shown to be on the same level as the Yonko whenever he makes an appearance. Sengoku during the MF War still thought there was a chance that they would lose vs WB, even though the Navy HQ had 3 Admirals and Mihawk present. Mihawk was stalled by Jozu, Vista, Crocodile, and Mr. 1. Hard to believe that BM or Kaido in normal conditions (not drunk or hungry), would be bother by any of them.

Mihawk is extremely powerful but not Yonko powerful. Just because he is portrayed as Zolo's last opponent does not mean he is above other characters who have shown better feats than Mihawk.