One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

Their ages have no importance. Would Ace be stronger if he were alive. I believe so yes. Did he have huge potential of course. Does his age give off anything? No not really. Ace was not YC2 tier at the time of his death. He was YC3 at best. Gear 4 Luffy in Dressrosa would mid diff Ace. Look at how he threw Doffy around and Doffy was pretty strong.

Of course it matters. The fact that Ace stalemated Jimbe at 17 is important. Cause he had three more years to power up, while Jimbe was already peaked. That basically refutes your argument of trying to scale Ace from his fight with Jimbe

Ace gave BB high- extreme diff with DF disadvantage, so yeah he'll definitely beat Doflamingo.

"G4 Dresrossa Luffy > Ace" has no basis.

 

[LadyVados]

Ace gave BB high- extreme diff with DF disadvantage, so yeah he'll definitely beat Doflamingo.

Ace and BB is generally considered a low-high diff fight by the fandom. In fact Worstgen lists it as the prototypical example of a low-high diff fight. Ace got a few good hits in but BB was clearly in control from start to finish. I really would not call it an extreme diff fight. For me an extreme diff fight is Luffy vs Lucci.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2021 ---

"G4 Dresrossa Luffy > Ace" has no basis.

Lol I remember back in 2012 when people thought Sanji was Ace level and Vergo would destroy Ace and Doffy was admiral level coz he broke out of a little bit of Aokiji's ice.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021 ---

King is secretly Yonkou+++ tier

Is much more likely than Yonko tier Yami Teach

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Of course it matters. The fact that Ace stalemated Jimbe at 17 is important. Cause he had three more years to power up, while Jimbe was already peaked. That basically refutes your argument of trying to scale Ace from his fight with Jimbe

Ace gave BB high- extreme diff with DF disadvantage, so yeah he'll definitely beat Doflamingo.

"G4 Dresrossa Luffy > Ace" has no basis.

Ace gave BB more like mid difficulty really

 

[grey matter]

That is exactly what I'm saying ! Zoro haters are trying to argue that Marco is >>> King without any evidence.

Zoro is my favorite strawhat and I think Marco would mid-high diff King.
I think most of the readers, as of now, thinks Marco is stronger, and I don't think most readers dislike Zoro

Of course he isn't >>> King. Nobody except Yonkos are strong enough to low diff King.

Ace and BB is generally considered a low-high diff fight by the fandom. In fact Worstgen lists it as the prototypical example of a low-high diff fight. Ace got a few good hits in but BB was clearly in control from start to finish.

Ace gave BB more like mid difficulty really

BB was in control, sure. But BB was dominating only in the beginning of the fight, when Ace had zero intel. Ace did start fighting back properly after he figured out how BB's DF works
They were pretty much trading blows afterwards,

And their nukes basically cancelled out each other, before the fight got off screened, indicating comparable powers.

I think it's a high diff at least.

Lol I remember back in 2012 when people thought Sanji was Ace level and Vergo would destroy Ace and Doffy was admiral level coz he broke out of a little bit of Aokiji's ice.

TBH, I also thought Doflamingo was borderline admiral tier in Dresrossa arc lol.
For me, it was believable, With his feats in Marineford, him fighting Fujutora, breaking out of Aokiji's ice, conqueror's haki, DF awakening etc

That quickly changed when G4 Luffy got destroyed by Katakuri, a YC1 lol

I never thought Vergo or Sanji was above Ace though.

 

[LadyVados]

Zoro is my favorite strawhat and I think Marco would mid-high diff King.

I think it's a high diff at least.

Exactly, at worst it's a high diff loss for King, some people seem to think he'd destroy him. I personally think they are roughly equal (with maybe King being slightly stronger) since I think Hybrid is a pretty big power-up and King didn't use it against Marco. Hybrid Marco is def stronger than Human/Zoan King. My rating comes from how big a power-up I think Hybrid form is. Based on what we've seen from Lucci and Kaido.

I'd call it low-high diff. Not mid but not extreme either.

 

[Crimson Ice]

He fought Marco 1 on 1 for a prolonged period of time while Queen was on the live floor, fighting Chopper and later Sanji.

Hybrid form probably triples your strength. If King was fighting evenly with Marco with a third of his full power that is strong evidence that he's above Marco.

Spoiler: Leaks

Not to mention if King destroys Zoro and breaks Sandai that would be a crazy feat. Imagine if he overpowers Asura.

Marco who had been fighting two on one and had already been healing everyone lol....Not to mention, this wasn't a long time, most of the fight was Marco vs King and Queen and the only time Marco expresses difficulty in fighting is against both of them.

Using headcanon and cherry-picking a small portion of that fight doesn't help you.

 

[LadyVados]

this wasn't a long time

It was enough time for Queen to have his whole thing on the live floor, beat Chopper and beat Sanji.

Again King wasn't using Hybrid.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Okay I forgot about the Ace novel I was going of by what I saw in the manga. Yamato had the cuffs on and she was not going serious towards Ace, because she didnt really care about protecting Kaidos castle. To me Yamato is clearly superior to Ace even now seeing how she actually has ACoA/CoC. Able to damage Kaido and last longer than anyone but Luffy and BM fighting Kaido. I dont see Ace doing anything to Kaido. WB was a different person compared to Kaido. If anything WB's durability is weaker than Kaido's so dont even think about mentioning Ace damaged WB with his fire and haki.

This chapter 999 https://mangasee123.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-999.html
shows Yamato vs Ace
I want to say Yamato had her DF since she was a kid, she claimed she ate it because she was hungry: https://mangasee123.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-1019.html
We know Kaido imprisoned Yamato in a cave to starve so maybe she stole the fruit as a kid somehow.

Pre TS is ambiguous with haki usage so I don't know why everyone is so confident in saying Ace barely knew haki. Yamato didn't care about Kaido but still went out of her way to engage Ace, no, I'm not going to say she was massively holding back, nothing strongly implies that. Current Yamato is stronger than Ace but her damaging Kiado has nothing to do with that, Killer and the Scabbards can do that. Nothing shows Yamato was that strong during that flashback.

Yamato was most likely staved at multiple points in time. We saw what happened when Yamato was in that cave, the samurai gave her food and busted out of the cave.

 

[grey matter]

Exactly, at worst it's a high diff loss for King, some people seem to think he'd destroy him. I personally think they are roughly equal (with maybe King being slightly stronger) since I think Hybrid is a pretty big power-up and King didn't use it against Marco. Hybrid Marco is def stronger than Human/Zoan King. My rating comes from how big a power-up I think Hybrid form is. Based on what we've seen from Lucci and Kaido.

I haven't really seen anyone claiming Marco would destroy King though. Just that Marco is a decent cut above King

I don't think hybrid form is that superior to base/zoan either. It's the strongest form for sure, but the gap isn't that big. Kaido doesn't look a tier above his base/dragon form. Neither did Lucci.

Reasoning:
G2 Luffy ~ hybrid Rob Lucci > base Lucci >> base Luffy.
Implication of this is: G2 is a much bigger powerup than hybrid zoan form


Marco fought zoan King and Queen for hours, while expending energy to heal up thousands of allied soldiers.
I don't think zoan to hybrid transformation would outdo this feat
Also, don't think King can replicate what Marco accomplished against the admirals. Matching the attack power of angry Akainu is pretty impressive.

But maybe I'm wrong, King might do something really crazy later on. We'll see

I'd call it low-high diff. Not mid but not extreme either.

Could be. Near high diff at minimum.

 

[Crimson Ice]

It was enough time for Queen to have his whole thing on the live floor, beat Chopper and beat Sanji.

Again King wasn't using Hybrid.

Beat Sanji? When Queen "beat" Sanji a couple of chapters ago, Marco had already stopped fighting.

Once again, King had Queen's help and couldn't overpower Marco.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2021 ---

Ace gave BB more like mid difficulty really

We don't know what Ace gave BB because we didn't see the end of the fight.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021 ---

That is exactly what I'm saying ! Zoro haters are trying to argue that Marco is >>> King without any evidence.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2021 ---

Ok, we won't feed you.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021 ---

I said he's stronger than old sick whitebeard, who I rate below every admiral and Yonko, by virtue of him getting a heart attack every 2 minutes. Zoro just has to survive long enough for him to get a heart attack, then one dead man's game and game over.

As for Big Mom, I don't think the gap between the stronger YC1s and the weaker Yonkos is that big. Big Mom looks like she might lose to Kidd and Law, who are both pretty weak.

Sick WB is low-diffing Zoro.

 

[LadyVados]

I haven't really seen anyone claiming Marco would destroy King though. Just that Marco is a decent cut above King

I wouldn't define being a decent cut above someone as being pushed to high diff by someone but I guess it's hardly a technical term and everyone has a different definition of what a decent cut is.

Kaido doesn't look a tier above his base/dragon form.

I disagree with this. Kaido went from struggling against the scabbards and looking kinda bad against the Supernova to being a killing machine.

base Lucci >> base Luffy.

I disagree with this, Base Luffy and Lucci were comparable, maybe Lucci was slightly stronger but not by that much.

 

[Fox666]

Ace didn't barley know CoA or CoO, he learned those before joining WB and the novel shows him training his haki. The Ace at MF and Alabsata is not the same Ace that fought Yamato, nor do we know if Yamato had her DF or SS cuffs when she fought Ace.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2021 ---

Lol thinking King is stronger because he didn't use Hybrid but you ignore the fact he had Queen as backup? This comparison only makes sense if they fought one on one.

Kaido vs Luffy one isn't an outlier, Kaido shits on King too. Not to mention, Luffy probably couldn't have used Future Sight in that fight because he was enraged.

Yamato explosive cuffs were never stated to be made of seastone

He wore them since she was kid, and apparently Kaido never bothered in changing them

Yamato was equal to Ace 4 years ago, but today is strong enough to exchange blows with Kaido. I don't understand what's all the fuzz about?

 

[LadyVados]

Sick WB is low-diffing Zoro.

Based on what ?

A healthy hybrid Kaido couldn't low-diff a near death Zoro but Sick Old WB is low-diffing a healthy Zoro ?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2021 ---

Marco fought zoan King and Queen for hours

Do we know how long the Raid has been going on for ?

 

[Crimson Ice]

Yamato explosive cuffs were never stated to be made of seastone

He wore them since she was kid, and apparently Kaido never bothered in changing them

Yamato was equal to Ace 4 years ago, but today is strong enough to exchange blows with Kaido. I don't understand what's all the fuzz about?

Exactly, this was both pre WB Ace and a much younger version of Yamato. Everyone and their grandmother knows Yamato is STRONGER NOW. But people need to stop acting like Yamato was only using half her strength against Ace.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2021 ---

Based on what ?

A healthy hybrid Kaido couldn't low-diff a near death Zoro but Sick Old WB is low-diffing a healthy Zoro ?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2021 ---

Do we know how long the Raid has been going on for ?

This is a questionable reply. Kaido couldn't low-diff the SUPERNOVA, not just Zoro. An old WB facing off Zoro is smoking his boots, badly. Old WB was called the strongest pirate in manga and in external material even at MF. At the very least his and Shanks' clash indicate they were on the same level. Zoro, as we know right now, is getting tossed around by Kaido's right hand.

Spoiler

Normally I wouldn't take this to heart but the spoilers show that Zoro will need a power-up to beat King.

 

[grey matter]

I wouldn't define being a decent cut above someone as being pushed to high diff by someone but I guess it's hardly a technical term and everyone has a different definition of what a decent cut is.


I disagree with this. Kaido went from struggling against the scabbards and looking kinda bad against the Supernova to being a killing machine.


I disagree with this, Base Luffy and Lucci were comparable, maybe Lucci was slightly stronger but not by that much.

For me:
decent cut is mid-high diff. Significantly stronger = low-mid diff. Fodder = no-low diff. Pretty close = high-extreme diff. Around same level = extreme diff

Did he really though?
Facing some trouble against 9 strong opponents who have mastered advanced armament haki, with their strongest members being YC2-3 tier, and their weakest members being upper tobiroppo tier, is nothing to be ashamed of. It's in fact an accomplishment that he low diff'd 9 of them combined.
Base Kaido also one shot G4 Luffy at beginning of the arc, who was YC1 tier back then.
I really want to know though, what exactly did hybrid Kaido accomplish? He did a combo attack with BM, and soon afterwards the Supernovas split before he got to even fight them. He doesn't really have any feats except against Luffy and Yamato.

Base Luffy was Blueno tier, base Lucci is 5x as strong as Blueno (official power levels). We also saw base Luffy fighting against base Lucci, Lucci was toying with him. Immediately after Luffy went G2, Lucci got serious, transformed into hybrid form and they were having an even fight
I'm pretty sure this is how it went. I rewatched the entire W7-Enies Lobby arc just one week ago.

 

[XXGenesis]

Ehh, I think Yonkou are a tier above Admirals, in the same way Admirals are a tier above YC1s

If Mihawk is casual, then I don't see why Queen or Smoothie may not keep up. Still, maybe against Mihawk, combat speed is more important than brute strength, so it could be that.
I think we've seen enough from him to put him at YC2 however, but not YC1

Why wouldn't killer beat Doffy now? He has grown too. Back then, Doffy convincingly beat Law, current Law would convincingly beat Doffy.
Still, Doflamingo is a reasonable counter to people like "regular people" like Zoro, Killer etc. Luffy has the brute strength to break free from his strings, because he can expand his body; for normal humans, they're stuck once they are tied up. So, Doflamingo probably beats Killer. Still, that doesn't mean Killer isn't same tier.
Killer 100% would beat Cracker, I have no doubt about it

In Shutenmaru vs Jack fight, Shutenmaru had the advantage. They were close, but with Shutenmaru having the edge. He's YC3 tier
Dog and Cat are Jack tier in their base, and well above Jack with Sulong. Sulong form is YC2 tier.

Why shouldn't Peros Pero be as strong? He had great showings in WCI arc. And the Cat was injured to begin with, before fighting him

Some weakass with ryo isn't hurting Kaido. You need to be strong along with haki to hurt him. Kin'nemon should be strong, he's the leader.
At the very least, the lower ends of scabbards (Raizo/Kiku/Kanjuro) are upper tobiroppo tier. And the higher ends (Dog/Cat/Kyoshiro/Shutenmaru/Kin'nemon), they range from YC2-3 tier

Agreeing to disagree; I think Yonkou are stronger also, doesn’t make em different tiers IMO.

Personally I would think Vista would lose or be pressured. He wasn’t; That’s impressive IMO; WBP we’re veterans; I like to think his commanders were a little different from the others.

No!!! Lol sorry but No!!!!

Killer is not beating Cracker, that’s a wild statement…..Killer’s best attack was a sound attack to hurt Kaido; Cracker lost kinda lame but he was cannonball through his own DF ability, that is hard asf…it takes G4 strength to break his cracker dolls, same G4 Doffy was tanking punches from….I don’t even have Hawkins uo there with them either…Killer seriously IMO not at the moment defeating those 2.

Pero’s Pero; seems to have a strong, annoying and versatile DF ability. Luffy melted that shit ASAP!! Lol. I like Peros Pero a lot!! But Oda was bull shitting us. With him beating up Cat; everyone is battle worn, that’s only an excuse when it’s consistent throughout the manga


Now we are discussing the inconsistent nuisances.

Ace Facts & Highlights
-Fought BlackBeard & got owned with 2 punches!
-DF is a perfect counter to Kuzan’s DF
-Fought Jimbei to stalemate
-Fought Yamato, fight end

Ace sadly died during the 1st half of the story with only 1 fight against a hidden end game villain where he lost badly. He’s exactly where WB has him at even though WB ranks aren’t about strength.

Sabo with the Mera Mera; Is above Ace IMO. I would say they are equal but with his fruit, it’s gives Sabo that xtra edge. We’ve seen hi

 

[LadyVados]

This is a questionable reply. Kaido couldn't low-diff the SUPERNOVA, not just Zoro. An old WB facing off Zoro is smoking his boots, badly. Old WB was called the strongest pirate in manga and in external material even at MF. At the very least his and Shanks' clash indicate they were on the same level. Zoro, as we know right now, is getting tossed around by Kaido's right hand.

Spoiler

Normally I wouldn't take this to heart but the spoilers show that Zoro will need a power-up to beat King.

Zoro took on Kaido alone without any help from anyone else when he scarred him. If it had been just Kaido and Zoro on the roof and Zoro had gone straight for Asura do you think he wouldn't have been able to scar Kaido and make him cough up blood ? The instant you scar your opponent for life and make him cough out blood, the fight stops being a low diff in my book, even if Zoro had got taken out shortly after the fact that he would have bloodied up Kaido a bit and given him some new scars means it cannot be considered a low diff.

I don't doubt WB was still top tier in terms of raw power but he was definitely suffering from some issues, his CoO was compromised and his heart attacks were a big liability. WB as he was then was definitely a lot weaker than Kaido overall. And I don't think even Primebeard was as durable as Kaido.

Spoiler

That just means King is strong, not that Kaido is weak.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2021 ---

Base Kaido also one shot G4 Luffy at beginning of the arc, who was YC1 tier back then.


Base Luffy was Blueno tier, base Lucci is 5x as strong as Blueno (official power levels). We also saw base Luffy fighting against base Lucci, Lucci was toying with him. Immediately after Luffy went G2, Lucci got serious, transformed into hybrid form and they were having an even fight
I'm pretty sure this is how it went. I rewatched the entire W7-Enies Lobby arc just one week ago.

1. I think Base Kaido is stronger than his Zoan form. As for one-shotting Luffy, I think that was a. a semi-outlier and b. I consider Kata the weakest YC1 and also think he sort of let Luffy win. I do not see Base Kaido one-shotting Marco or Beckmann or King.

2. Honestly I'm not sure about Luffy struggling with Blueno, part of me thinks it was partially plot and Oda wanting to show off G2 or maybe Luffy got stronger after that fight. As you said Lucci was 5 times as strong as Blueno and Luffy was struggling with Blueno and then fighting evenly with Lucci, which makes no sense. I don't think Lucci was holding back either, he was giving it all he had in his base form.

Some people do say Doriki was just a gag by Oda making fun of power levels and don't use it for serious scaling. Maybe we were supposed to get the feeling that Lucci was a lot stronger than Blueno not necessarily exactly 5 times as strong.

 

[M3J]

Old Whitebeard > Zoro

Took a lot to kill him, and even those stronger than Zoro couldn't finish Whitebeard off, it took the Blackbeard crew dealing so much damage for Whitebeard to finally die. Zoro wasn't alone when he took on Kaidou and Big Mom either, he had help from Law, Kidd, and Luffy.

Though tbh, power levels changed drastically since Marineford, so old Whitebeard now could have been much stronger, given how he's been hyped.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Yamato didn't user her Zoan Vs Ace because it wasn't shown.
So does that mean Kaido didn't use his hybrid against Oden? So Kaido was holding back?

No offense but when it comes to power scaling, context also need to be noted. Can't be one dimensional.
There is a reason why Yamato's Zoan wasn't shown in the fight against Ace. It's called story telling.
Ace and Yamato was shown as equals in the manga.

 

[AmitDS]

Gibberish