One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

I mean, why wouldn't we take those particular words at face value? Especially at that moment? We can't feel haki. They can. They have been masters of haki for decades and should be experts on the topic. So if they note something strange going on with the sword, but ignore the wielder for some reason, it's fair to interpret that as something weird is going on with the blade that wasn't related to Zoro's haki.

I'm not saying it's all inconsistent, as Enma's introduction and the information we learned during King's fight is all good. It's just the Rooftop stuff that adds a bunch of stuff that wasn't relevant or consistent.

Enma absorbs haki to force it's wielder to go all in, per it's personality. Everything Kaido and Big Mom should've been sensing on the roof, should've been Zoro's haki. But having them ignore him altogether to focus on the sword or reference other folks' haki doesn't make any sense.

If Kaido just recognized Enma as Oden's sword from sight alone and the two of them noted that Zoro's haki was fluctuating wildly, that'd make the Enma story consistent from start to finish. But Kaido first recognized the sword as having Oden's haki and then noted a strange (third?) haki that apparently wasn't Zoro's or Oden's. Those word choices were intentional on Oda's part and supposed to be more hints towards the nature of Enma, but they don't meld with what we started on and what we ended on.

What I mean by not taking them at face value is for example Big Mom screaming "that sword is dangerous" and taking it as it's the sword that's doing something unique or weird unrelated to Zoro's haki. It was only his sword that was suddenly, and unnaturally, swelling up with a lot of haki, so she screamed to be careful with it (Zoro put up more than he intended that one time, and he got tired in a single swing. Very likely he would have injured Kaido as it had the same black aura as the later tatsumaki at that point). Taking from that single comment that Big Mom paid attention to the sword and none to Zoro is a personal interpretation, which is of course perfectly fine to have, but it's not necessarily the correct interpretation, as it turned out not to be.

Kaido recognizing Oden's sword after being cut with it never meant it was Oden's haki doing the work, that just became a theory coupled up with Big Mom's words. It may still be argued that some traces of Oden's haki were left inside the sword and could be felt by the cut, but this is extremely far from Oden's haki taking the merit for anything that happened on that rooftop (as someone insistently argued back then).

I'll go further ahead and say that them focusing on that one sword until the end is perfectly consistent with everything about Enma: It was the only of his three swords sucking up more haki than he intended to, and the only one who may have had traces of his CoC during three of his attacks, including the Asura, as I argued on an earlier post. Zoro didn't feel as strong as that sword is, as that's where even power he didn't know he had was accumulating during certain attacks, while the rest of his body and swords were just plain weaker.

I interpreted the scene like this since the beginning, and everything that went down later with Enma and King ended up being perfectly consistent with how I had openly interpreted the rooftop scene, which is why I don't agree it was inconsistent, and I don't believe Oda changed his mind about Enma anywhere along the line in that fight. It's only inconsistent depending on how each individual chose to interpret BM's and Kaido's reactions. I don't know if it would change anything for you, but reading back the rooftop fight taking into account not to take their words the way you initially interpreted them may make you see the scene in a different light. Wano is very flawed, but personally I find that this particular topic was satisfyingly executed.

 

[grey matter]

Jinbe is really getting to be the most overhyped character in quite a while.

If you think either of these:
- Jinbe > Sanji
- Jinbe is YC1 tier

Please provide justification other than just bounty.

Jinbe doesn't have anything putting him anywhere close to Sanji or YC1 tier.
He looks strong cause he took down one Tobiroppo with mid diff. That doesn't justify placing him at those levels mentioned above, Katakuri low diff'd Luffy who was YC2-3 tier back then

Jinbe actually stalemated Ace before he joined WB crew, and was in his early 40s at the time, i.e time when characters peak. So, we know where the character actually stands. There is no narrative suggesting that Jinbe got stronger since then

 

[Pirate Queen]

Jinbe is really getting to be the most overhyped character in quite a while.

If you think either of these:
- Jinbe > Sanji
- Jinbe is YC1 tier

Please provide justification other than just bounty.

Jinbe doesn't have anything putting him anywhere close to Sanji or YC1 tier.
He looks strong cause he took down one Tobiroppo with mid diff. That doesn't justify placing him at those levels mentioned above, Katakuri low diff'd Luffy who was YC2-3 tier back then

Jinbe actually stalemated Ace before he joined WB crew, and was in his early 40s at the time, i.e time when characters peak. So, we know where the character actually stands. There is no narrative suggesting that Jinbe got stronger since then

I mean the same can be said for Crocodile. Are you expecting him to be just ad weak as he was against Luffy in Alabasta?

 

[grey matter]

I mean the same can be said for Crocodile. Are you expecting him to be just ad weak as he was against Luffy in Alabasta?

Crocodile honestly has no business being in YC1 tier.

Saying this as someone who has always argued that Alabasta Crocodile was a mistake, and that Marineford was merely him getting "corrected" to where he narratively should be.
Even Marineford was showing him to be outright weaker than Jozu, who is likely on the higher end of YC2 tier. He was also portrayed to be below Doflamingo as well, who we generally put at YC3 tier (at best scratching YC2 tier)

Crocodile had commander-esque vibe, but never on the YC1 levels.....

**************

Having said that. Even for Crocodile, if Oda really wants to, can pull up an excuse like he did for Moria and make him YC1 tier.

We know for a fact that peak Gecko Moria was tiers stronger than the current one. He was probably YC1+ tier, because Kaido felt some thrill in fighting him, similar to 1010 Luffy.
But he lost his will after getting rekt by Kaido, and became fodder.

Oda can just say similar stuff happened to Crocodile after getting rekt by Whitebeard.
He can say Crocodile used to be very strong (YC1 tier or so), got rekt by WB, and became fodder relative to what he once was.

But after seeing the entire events of Marineford, after seeing Luffy's determination and even helping him out after gaining respect, Crocodile regained his will over the last two years (as evidenced by his convos, moving back to New World etc), and is now as strong as he used to be.

Oda can honestly just say something along these lines, and it wouldn't even be BS or a retcon. Cause there is an established precedence for this with Gecko Moria.

***************

There is no such narrative reasoning or justification for Jinbe suddenly jumping up tiers in his mid 40s.

Because, unlike Crocodile, Jinbe has never lost his will or got his dreams crushed. There was no event that made Jinbe weaker when he fought Ace, and now he is regaining his strength back. Nothing.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Crocodile honestly has no business being in YC1 tier.

Saying this as someone who has always argued that Alabasta Crocodile was a mistake, and that Marineford was merely him getting "corrected" to where he narratively should be.
Even Marineford was showing him to be outright weaker than Jozu, who is likely on the higher end of YC2 tier. He was also portrayed to be below Doflamingo as well, who we generally put at YC2-3 tier

Crocodile had commander-esque vibe, but never on the YC1 levels.....

**************

Having said that. Even for Crocodile, if Oda really wants to, can pull up an excuse like he did for Moria and make him YC1 tier.

We know for a fact that peak Gecko Moria was tiers stronger than the current one. He was probably YC1+ tier, because Kaido felt some thrill in fighting him, similar to 1010 Luffy.
But he lost his will after getting rekt by Kaido, and became fodder.

Oda can just say similar stuff happened to Crocodile after getting rekt by Whitebeard.
He can say Crocodile used to be very strong (YC1 tier or so), got rekt by WB, and became fodder relative to what he once was.

But after seeing the entire events of Marineford, after seeing Luffy's determination and even helping him out after gaining respect, Crocodile regained his will over the last two years (as evidenced by his convos, moving back to New World etc), and is now as strong as he used to be.

Oda can honestly just say something along these lines, and it wouldn't even be BS or a retcon. Cause there is an established precedence for this with Gecko Moria.

***************

There is no such narrative reasoning or justification for Jinbe suddenly jumping up tiers in his mid 40s.

Because, unlike Crocodile, Jinbe has never lost his will or got his dreams crushed. There was no event that made Jinbe weaker when he fought Ace, and now he is regaining his strength back. Nothing.

To me it just feels weird to give character like Jinbei and Crocodile 1+B bounties if they weren't at least YC1 caliber.

Yes I know bounties don't equal strength.

But I've seen 3 or 4YC1 fights

Katakuri, King, Zoro, and Marco and some of Jinbei's best feats simply put him in that category.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Croco boy is thay guy sorry

 

[grey matter]

To me it just feels weird to give character like Jinbei and Crocodile 1+B bounties if they weren't at least YC1 caliber.

Yes I know bounties don't equal strength.

But I've seen 3 or 4YC1 fights

Katakuri, King, Zoro, and Marco and some of Jinbei's best feats simply put him in that category.

Queen and Jack also has 1billion+ bounty. King and Katakuri are far stronger than them.

But, yeah. Oda will probably just make Jinbe that strong randomly, and expect the readers to eat it up without offering any explanation. SMH

Which one of Jinbe's best feats put him in that category? Pushing BM off the ship? BM was kinda nerfed there + had hunger pang.
Plus, in the same arc, Jinbe was wary of Katakuri as well.

Also, I don't think a YC1 tier would even remotely struggle against a Tobiroppo. Who's Who gave Jinbe a tough fight until he got Jinbe really mad. Overall the fight was a mid diff.
While YC1s would just no diff WW

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2022 ---

Also, in the same post, I mentioned how Oda can actually make Crocodile YC1 tier without it being some BS or retcon. He simply needs to pull Moria 2.0 scenario with Crocodile, and him regaining his will

There is no such scenario for Jinbe here

 

[Pirate Queen]

How does everyone get the benefit of growing stronger between arcs EXCEPT Jinbei? A respect shichibukai who tanked Yonko/Admiral level attacks, dished out consistant high level damage, and is now boosted by being a close subordinate of the MC. Growth is going to continue to happen.

Queen and Jack also has 1billion+ bounty. King and Katakuri are far stronger than them.

But, yeah. Oda will probably just make Jinbe that strong randomly, and expect the readers to eat it up without offering any explanation. SMH

Which one of Jinbe's best feats put him in that category? Pushing BM off the ship? BM was kinda nerfed there + had hunger pang.
Plus, in the same arc, Jinbe was wary of Katakuri as well.

Also, I don't think a YC1 tier would even remotely struggle against a Tobiroppo. Who's Who gave Jinbe a tough fight until he got Jinbe really mad. Overall the fight was a mid diff.
While YC1s would just no diff WW

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2022 ---

Also, in the same post, I mentioned how Oda can actually make Crocodile YC1 tier without it being some BS or retcon. He simply needs to pull Moria 2.0 scenario with Crocodile, and him regaining his will

There is no such scenario for Jinbe here

I can give you that Jinbei is the weakest of all YC1 characters I think are YC1's but that's really it. I think Jinbei under rated as opposed to over rated.

I had Jinbei above Sanji and Zoro before the raid and correctly adjusted him to being weaker than them after their upgrades.

I just don't think his growth rate is better than the younger characters but he can still grow and develop new techniques. I mean he is using techniques we didn't even know he had still. We have yet to see him go all out.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think we have to use real world logic to make sense of what's happening with Jinbei, Crocodile, & Moriah. The reality is:

• Oda created & introduced the Warlords early on in the story when he had not come up with Emperors, Haki, Awakening, etc
• The power scale Oda initially introduced was meant to be the peak, with Warlords representing that level of strength
• One Piece became highly successful manga and Oda ended up extending the story and introducing the concept of Emperor
• Warlords were narratively said to be in balance with Emperors as a group
• Once we got to New World, we actually got to see what Emperors are made of (power creep just kept on creeping)

With the above in mind, Oda only had one sensible choice. RETCON.

For the narrative to make sense the entire group of Warlords had to be stronger. So now we have people like Crocodile & Jinbei suddenly being far stronger than any of their earlier portrayals would dictate. I'm not sure if Moriah is alive or not, but if we ever see him in combat again just be ready to see him far stronger than the Moriah we saw in TB.

There is no hidden meaning, rationale, etc within the story for this. Oda simply had to adjust power levels to maintain the narrative he set up years before all this power creep happened.

 

[grey matter]

I think we have to use real world logic to make sense of what's happening with Jinbei, Crocodile, & Moriah. The reality is:

• Oda created & introduced the Warlords early on in the story when he had not come up with Emperors, Haki, Awakening, etc
• The power scale Oda initially introduced was meant to be the peak, with Warlords representing that level of strength
• One Piece became highly successful manga and Oda ended up extending the story and introducing the concept of Emperor
• Warlords were narratively said to be in balance with Emperors as a group
• Once we got to New World, we actually got to see what Emperors are made of (power creep just kept on creeping)

With the above in mind, Oda only had one sensible choice. RETCON.

For the narrative to make sense the entire group of Warlords had to be stronger. So now we have people like Crocodile & Jinbei suddenly being far stronger than any of their earlier portrayals would dictate. I'm not sure if Moriah is alive or not, but if we ever see him in combat again just be ready to see him far stronger than the Moriah we saw in TB.

There is no hidden meaning, rationale, etc within the story for this. Oda simply had to adjust power levels to maintain the narrative he set up years before all this power creep happened.

I get what you are saying.

But in the same arc, Jozu and Doflamingo were portrayed as outright superior to Crocodile. Even if Oda chance their level relative to pre TS Strawhats, this still remains.

There is also Jinbe stalemating Ace (pre WB). Again, nothing to do with Strawhats.

I agree that levels relative to Strawhats are definitely retconned. But what about levels relative to Yonkos commanders and other Schichibukai?

 

[HereNThere]

What I mean by not taking them at face value is for example Big Mom screaming "that sword is dangerous" and taking it as it's the sword that's doing something unique or weird unrelated to Zoro's haki. It was only his sword that was suddenly, and unnaturally, swelling up with a lot of haki, so she screamed to be careful with it (Zoro put up more than he intended that one time, and he got tired in a single swing. Very likely he would have injured Kaido as it had the same black aura as the later tatsumaki at that point). Taking from that single comment that Big Mom paid attention to the sword and none to Zoro is a personal interpretation, which is of course perfectly fine to have, but it's not necessarily the correct interpretation, as it turned out not to be.

She's singling out the sword itself as the anomaly. It is his sword that was swelling up unnaturally, but, with what we discover later, it is still Zoro's haki. Wording it as she did just shines a spotlight on the sword as the dangerous aspect of the attack, when it shouldn't be what she's noticing. She should be noting the attack as a whole is going to be dangerous as Zoro's haki suddenly spiked, rather than focusing solely on the sword.

Kaido recognizing Oden's sword after being cut with it never meant it was Oden's haki doing the work, that just became a theory coupled up with Big Mom's words. It may still be argued that some traces of Oden's haki were left inside the sword and could be felt by the cut, but this is extremely far from Oden's haki taking the merit for anything that happened on that rooftop (as someone insistently argued back then).

Kaido recognized Oden's presence without being cut by it though. He was still feeling Oden's presence after Flying Dragon's Slash failed to hit him. We know Oden's haki wasn't doing the work, but the fact that Oda kept referencing Oden's haki when we now know it should just be Zoro's haki emitting from the blade is inconsistent. When he cut Kaido with Dragon Twister, Kaido shouldn't have noted the sword as the source of the strange haki when it's just an outlet for Zoro's own haki. Kaido's comments don't make sense now as he's sensing things that he technically shouldn't be sensing and attributing to things other than Zoro.

And Kaido recognizing that it was Enma after being cut with Zoro's Dragon Twister doesn't make much sense either since we know that Enma isn't the reason for that. AdCoC is the reason. Enma didn't produce AdCoC. Oden did, which is why Enma and the strangely omitted Ame no Habakiri cut Kaido. And why Zoro cut Kaido, not just with Enma, but all three (plus 6) of his swords during his last-ditch Asura.

I'll go further ahead and say that them focusing on that one sword until the end is perfectly consistent with everything about Enma: It was the only of his three swords sucking up more haki than he intended to, and the only one who may have had traces of his CoC during three of his attacks, including the Asura, as I argued on an earlier post. Zoro didn't feel as strong as that sword is, as that's where even power he didn't know he had was accumulating during certain attacks, while the rest of his body and swords were just plain weaker.

In my opinion, given what we know now, they shouldn't have been attributing any of his contributions to other individuals' haki or just the sword. As I suggested, their focus should've been on Zoro's haki acting weird and being unbalanced. The sword, while being the source of that unbalance, isn't what's dangerous about Zoro's attacks. That is still due to Zoro's own haki. Even if Oden's residue is still in the sword, it shouldn't be the only thing Kaido is sensing.

I interpreted the scene like this since the beginning, and everything that went down later with Enma and King ended up being perfectly consistent with how I had openly interpreted the rooftop scene, which is why I don't agree it was inconsistent, and I don't believe Oda changed his mind about Enma anywhere along the line in that fight. It's only inconsistent depending on how each individual chose to interpret BM's and Kaido's reactions. I don't know if it would change anything for you, but reading back the rooftop fight taking into account not to take their words the way you initially interpreted them may make you see the scene in a different light. Wano is very flawed, but personally I find that this particular topic was satisfyingly executed.

I've reread the Rooftop fight a couple of times since the conclusion of Zoro vs King and it just makes it more egregious to me when I consider where everything is leading to. If it was all Zoro's haki, it should've still been acknowledged as, in the end, despite Enma's shenanigans, it is pushing Zoro to go all in with his own haki. Oda's framing of Enma during Roof Piece just doesn't meld with later reveals, in my opinion.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I get what you are saying.

But in the same arc, Jozu and Doflamingo were portrayed as outright superior to Crocodile. Even if Oda chance their level relative to pre TS Strawhats, this still remains.

There is also Jinbe stalemating Ace (pre WB). Again, nothing to do with Strawhats.

I agree that levels relative to Strawhats are definitely retconned. But what about levels relative to Yonkos commanders and other Schichibukai?

That wasn't my take on the Marineford portrayal of Crocodile. His only interaction with Jozu was getting surprise Brilliant Punk'd the same way as Aokiji. Crocodile was fine even though a YC level fighter hit him with a powerful blow using haki (the same Crocodile that lost to pre gear/pre haki Luffy's punches). Similarly, his encounter with Doflamingo was completely neutral. Doffy asked Crocodile to be his underling which he refused, and Doffy used his string to cut Crocodile in half which triggered logia intangibility. No harm no fowl here. The way I saw the entirety of Marineford Crocodile's portrayal is that he is a peer to YC level folk like Jozu, Doffy, Jinbei, etc. Heck he was even willing to clash with Akainu to help Luffy escape.

As for Jinbei he was said to be equal to Ace (pre WB). However, there wasn't much in the manga itself that showed any difference in Ace (pre WB) and Ace (post WB). All we saw is that Ace tried many times to take WB's life and failed miserably each time before submitting. It wasn't until Ace Novel that we were told that Ace grew much stronger during that time. The narrative has been that Jinbei is roughly an Ace level fighter, and with Ace being a YC himself seems Jinbei has appropriately scaled to what YC looks like post time skip.

 

[albertwv]

I like how the conversation moved from Zolo, Luffy, and Kaido. Honestly it gets boring after awhile.
Ahh, I remember Moe, claiming Smoker was Top 10 and Top 30 because of strong he WOULD have gotten since Punk hazard. Also claiming really bad that Sanji was going to fight King and Zolo was going to fight Orochi. I wonder where he is now, probably crying that Sanji fought Queen instead.

Now onto Jimbei. He has some great feats, but I find it hard to place him above YC3 or even above Doffy. I find it even difficult to place Ace above Doffy. Seeing how strong Doffy was in Dressrosa and that was only the bottom level of the top.
I don't see Jimbei getting stronger unless they show us.

Crocodile, was a mistake in Alabasta but in MF he was at least a YC4. I think Doffy > Crocodile.

 

[grey matter]

How does everyone get the benefit of growing stronger between arcs EXCEPT Jinbei? A respect shichibukai who tanked Yonko/Admiral level attacks, dished out consistant high level damage, and is now boosted by being a close subordinate of the

I explained for Crocodile. Not sure if Oda will use that excuse, but he can very well explain it away in a non BS way if he chooses to.

Others (like strawhats, supernova) are just not at their peak age.
In before Franky and Brook. Brook is dead and stopped ageing, plus his growth is DF related. Franky's improvements all come from his mech.

As for Jinbei he was said to be equal to Ace (pre WB). However, there wasn't much in the manga itself that showed any difference in Ace (pre WB) and Ace (post WB). All we saw is that Ace tried many times to take WB's life and failed miserably each time before submitting. It wasn't until Ace Novel that we were told that Ace grew much stronger during that time. The narrative has been that Jinbei is roughly an Ace level fighter, and with Ace being a YC himself seems Jinbei has appropriately scaled to what YC looks like post time skip.

Yeah, Ace tried each time and grew stronger with every failure,
You think someone whose potential rivals Luffy, will remain same when he was 18 and 20? Come on, be reasonable here.

The spinoff makes it pretty clear that he grew a lot stronger since he first fought WB, and was the reason he got to take over commander pos 2, which was left vacant on purpose.
Ace when he joined WB (i.e when he stalemated Jinbe), was no diff material to him in his sleep. Ace post growth, could give casual WB a fight for many hours.

Jinbe's growth rate is nowhere as close as Ace's. Not only because the potential isn't there, but also because Ace was 18 then, Jinbe was in his early 40s at the time.

There is zero feats or narrative putting Jinbe anywhere close to YC1 tier.
The fact that vast majority of the fanbase would've laughed you off for even suggesting this, prior to this chapter, is proof. People may not think strictly in terms of feats or whatever, but nobody in their right mind would've put Jinbe along with the likes of King or Katakuri

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Yeah, Ace tried each time and grew stronger with every failure,
You think someone whose potential rivals Luffy, will remain same when he was 18 and 20? Come on, be reasonable here.

The spinoff makes it pretty clear that he grew a lot stronger since he first fought WB, and was the reason he got to take over commander pos 2, which was left vacant on purpose.
Ace when he joined WB (i.e when he stalemated Jinbe), was no diff material to him in his sleep. Ace post growth, could give casual WB a fight for many hours.

I'm just going by the manga. The flashback material for Ace in chapter 552 shows him tie with Jinbei & then go on WB ship and get beat super easy with 0 progress in strength shown by him, then he joins the WB crew. What the manga showed us as peak Ace is someone that doesn't compare feats wise to the YC people we see today post time skip, but we know he is at that level due to narrative (which I argue is the same for the Warlords as a whole).

As for the age thing, doesn't really mean much in OP since there is 0 consistency in people powering up/getting stronger relative to age. Luffy at 19 is stronger than Ace ever was at 20, current Franky 36 is way stronger than original Franky 34, etc. People in OP get stronger at whatever age so long as it meets the narrative.

The spin off came many years after the original material. It shows feats relative to the power levels established in new world arcs. That's why it shows Ace's growth in more detail. I personally sort of felt it retconned Ace too since he did fairly well against WB when in the original manga he was not shown to be at that level of strength.

Jinbe's growth rate is nowhere as close as Ace's. Not only because the potential isn't there, but also because Ace was 18 then, Jinbe was in his early 40s at the time.

There is zero feats or narrative putting Jinbe anywhere close to YC1 tier.
The fact that vast majority of the fanbase would've laughed you off for even suggesting this, prior to this chapter, is proof. People may not think strictly in terms of feats or whatever, but nobody in their right mind would've put Jinbe along with the likes of King or Katakuri

That's just it though. All the original story did was show Jinbei & Crocodile being relative to the other Warlords during Marineford. And the whole of the Warlords got retconned to being stronger since that is the only way to keep narrative consistency that the Warlords are a power that rivaled the Emperors. There won't be a display in growth of power for Jinbei since the narrative intention is he has always been this strong, even during Marineford.

 

[LaGOAT]

@grey matter @DeadlyBeast said it perfectly. U saying that crocodile got recton because of marineford feats all dude is was clashes and took a hit. Unless ur saying that during impel down he gotten stronger lol but u might said nah he is in his 40s so he couldn’t have gotten stronger 2. Im not comparing the growth of the perosn im saying that he can still get stronger no matter (big or small growth ) and OP doesn’t have a consistent growth rate if think about it.

also have we seen gone all out be4 he hasn’t seen a full power jinbei so far in this series can u point me one time jinbei went full power.

lol u said katakuri was no diffing when luffy didn’t go all out from the jump (like use snakeman way later in the fight) now don’t get me wrong katakuri>luffy but be4 the fight I felt luffy was YC2 lvl

@Pirate Queen the issue is before wano we never saw zoro go all out the question is where would u put zoro before getting Emma?

 

[Pirate Queen]

@grey matter @DeadlyBeast said it perfectly. U saying that crocodile got recton because of marineford feats all dude is was clashes and took a hit. Unless ur saying that during impel down he gotten stronger lol but u might said nah he is in his 40s so he couldn’t have gotten stronger 2. Im not comparing the growth of the perosn im saying that he can still get stronger no matter (big or small growth ) and OP doesn’t have a consistent growth rate if think about it.

also have we seen gone all out be4 he hasn’t seen a full power jinbei so far in this series can u point me one time jinbei went full power.

lol u said katakuri was no diffing when luffy didn’t go all out from the jump (like use snakeman way later in the fight) now don’t get me wrong katakuri>luffy but be4 the fight I felt luffy was YC2 lvl

@Pirate Queen the issue is before wano we never saw zoro go all out the question was where would u put zoro before getting Emma?

Around Cracker/Doflamingo level fighter, slightly below possibly

Unmastered Enma puts Zoro at high Yc2 borderline YC1

Mastered enma puts Zoro at his current solid YC1 level


As for his swordsmanship, I think he is JUST BELOW Mihawk. Maybe 1 arc upgrade away

 

[McNuss]

I mean the same can be said for Crocodile. Are you expecting him to be just ad weak as he was against Luffy in Alabasta?

No, I think he will have both kinds of Haki mastered, and probably revealed to always have been Awakened. Easiest way to show power-up with little time. I also think Daz Bones is Tobi Roppo level now, Galdino probably headliner level, Kabaji Coliseum fighter level and Alvida too, or even better. Yet I still think this screams "Worf Effect" all over.

Unless ur saying that during impel down he gotten stronger lol

Acually, that's what Wano Arc made a fact.
It also explained it blossoms during battle, and in Dressrosa Arc, it was strongly implied it can be lost, too, with Chinjao.

Crocodile must have fought a lot with the other inmates of his cell. Basically, whenever he needed to pee he must have knocked out everyone else unconscious, else they would have found out his secret...

 

[grey matter]

I'm just going by the manga. The flashback material for Ace in chapter 552 shows him tie with Jinbei & then go on WB ship and get beat super easy with 0 progress in strength shown by him, then he joins the WB crew. What the manga showed us as peak Ace is someone that doesn't compare feats wise to the YC people we see today post time skip, but we know he is at that level due to narrative (which I argue is the same for the Warlords as a whole).

Ace's feats in manga, pre timeskip.

- pushing BB with darkness fruit to a high diff.
BB was pretty powerful even without fruit, as Shanks himself warned. And had a DF which countered Ace

- Ace matched an attack from Aokiji.

Ace didn't do much in the main series. But there are definitely feats around implying that he is an upper commander level character

Which Shichibukai really got retconned?
Just Crocodile really. Moria was still treated as a weakling, and got kicked out of Shichibukai for being too weak.

As for the age thing, doesn't really mean much in OP since there is 0 consistency in people powering up/getting stronger relative to age. Luffy at 19 is stronger than Ace ever was at 20, current Franky 36 is way stronger than original Franky 34, etc. People in OP get stronger at whatever age so long as it meets the narrative.

Actually, there is consistency of characters peaking at somewhere in their 40s. After which they maintain their powers until they get really old and can't even do that.

We have solid evidence of this pattern, with Whitebeard, Garp, Sengoku and Rayleigh.
Both peaked (likely in their 40s), and then got weaker as they became old.

Franky hasn't hit 40, plus his powerups are almost exclusively coming from tech related stuff.

The spin off came many years after the original material. It shows feats relative to the power levels established in new world arcs. That's why it shows Ace's growth in more detail. I personally sort of felt it retconned Ace too since he did fairly well against WB when in the original manga he was not shown to be at that level of strength.

In the original manga, all we saw was the start where Ace got no diff'd by WB in his sleep.
And then we move an year forward, where Ace became commander. We didn't see what happened in between,

The novel gives us that context. There is no retcon here

Even think of it from the Marineford arc perspective.
Everyone, both marines and pirates, considered Ace the next PK. Not only because of his lineage, but because of his strength.

In fact, it was his absolutely insane growth rate, similar to Luffy, that even allowed marines (and possibly WB) to figure out that Ace was Roger's son.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2022 ---

@DeadlyBeast @LaGOAT
As for Crocodile getting stronger.

Honestly, Oda can do it without even a retcon. If he chooses to go that route.

What happened to Crocodile was pretty much what happened to Moria. Got rekt by a Yonko, lost the will, and went back to paradise.
The reverse happening to Crocodile would give him back his lost powers.

Basically, what I posted here:

Having said that. Even for Crocodile, if Oda really wants to, can pull up an excuse like he did for Moria and make him YC1 tier.

We know for a fact that peak Gecko Moria was tiers stronger than the current one. He was probably YC1+ tier, because Kaido felt some thrill in fighting him, similar to 1010 Luffy.
But he lost his will after getting rekt by Kaido, and became fodder.

Oda can just say similar stuff happened to Crocodile after getting rekt by Whitebeard.
He can say Crocodile used to be very strong (YC1 tier or so), got rekt by WB, and became fodder relative to what he once was.

But after seeing the entire events of Marineford, after seeing Luffy's determination and even helping him out after gaining respect, Crocodile regained his will over the last two years (as evidenced by his convos, moving back to New World etc), and is now as strong as he used to be.

Oda can honestly just say something along these lines, and it wouldn't even be BS or a retcon. Cause there is an established precedence for this with Gecko Moria.

***************

There is no such narrative reasoning or justification for Jinbe suddenly jumping up tiers in his mid 40s.

Because, unlike Crocodile, Jinbe has never lost his will or got his dreams crushed. There was no event that made Jinbe weaker when he fought Ace, and now he is regaining his strength back. Nothing.

 

[M3J]

Instead of Jinbei being as weak as Ace, why not say Ace was as strong as Jinbei? I mean, was Jinbei ever roasted for not beating Ace, or was Ace praised for tying with Jinbei?