One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

A quick explanation would make all this make sense, we don't need a whole backstory or flashback but that would be nice. Just saying that I find it hard too believe that Lucci fought really tough opponents like Luffy did or that he was trained by a legend from the WG.

Nowhere does it state that he is CP0's strongest agent, so idk where people are getting that idea from. We saw how quickly the other CP0 members who were thought to be senior and possibly the strongest among CP0 get wrecked by Izo, Drake, and finally Kaido. An injured Izo managed to kill one CP0 member, a wounded Drake managed to stab and injure a CP0 member, with Kaido one hit KO'd the CP0 member.

Coby at YC1? God damn. I wouldn't put him that far up just yet, not until he's proven himself more. IMO, YC1 is the pinnacle before reaching the top of the top (admiral, Yonko, Roger level).
When I mentioned "overcome", I mean't the growth of the characters. Luffy being the MC should be the only one with a massive unexplainable amount of growth throughout the series. At least in Shonen, that's how it works. No other characters, except the MC's rival overcomes the growth of the MC.

@grey matter I'm thinking about the time Kaido one hit KO'd Gear 4 Luffy in Wano and how BM KO'd Queen. Also, Gear 5/Awakening seems to be Luffy's strongest power up, past his gear 2,3, and 4.

Lucci and Luffy clashed equally (it is portrayed as that) when they both punched each other with CoA. We know Luffy has ACoA and ACoC, at the very least ACoA was in that punch. Yet they both were went flying backwards, Luffy should have won in that exchange and not be sent backwards.
Now if it was basic Luffy no gears/awakening, I would totally understand, but IMO this is like saying Luffy took Lucci seriously like he would Kaido and went full gear 5 awakening from the start.

Also, a little besides the point, but Luffy's ACoO/FS sucks ass, or is it Oda using it only when he remembers. Luffy should have seen that coming, that Lucci was going to stab Sentomaru.

I did chuckle at the prospect of Coby being YC1 lol. Maybe, who knows at this point? Oda doesn't give a F lol. But doesn't seem that way yet.
As for Sabo, it's been implied he's up there with the way he treated Burgess and fought an admiral. He's YC1 or YC1+. Lucci was portrayed relative to Sabo in movies. So Lucci being this strong wasn't out of nowhere.
Yeah, movies aren't canon, but stuff like overall plot, machups, etc should be coming from somewhere (Oda) I suppose

************

Regarding Kaido's one shot of Luffy, few things to note:

- Kaido used his strongest attack variant, the thunder bagua. All his high level attacks except the final attack used on G5 Luffy, are all variants of thunder bagua. So, this was a high end move with advanced conqueror's haki

- Luffy was not YC1 tier at that point IMO, he was more of a YC2+. Luffy back then was comparable to Katakuri in stats, and what makes Katakuri a YC1 is future sight + mochi body. When it comes to pure stats, King and Marco are a cut above that dude, because what makes them YC1 is their stats,
Luffy at that same point, would not beat Marco or King (or maybe even someone like Jozu), because the tools required to beat them are different from that required against Katakuri.

- Final and most important point. A heavily injured and exhausted Zoro, and Law, tanked a thunder bagua from a hybrid (i.e stronger) Kaido. The same rooftop Zoro, then got ragrolled by King.
So either rooftop Zoro (who is confirmed weaker and definitely far less tankier than King) and Law are leagues tankier than Katakuri and beginning of Wano Luffy. Or the Luffy one shot was an outlier.
No matter what conclusion you come to from this, my point stands. Either Katakuri was a relative glass canon, and hence a Luffy who was equivalent in stats to him getting one shot shouldn't be a default indicator to how other YC1s could/should perform. Or, this was an outlier, and hence shouldn't be used as an indicator to how YC1s perform.


*************

Regarding Luffy and Lucci clash.

There is no proof that Luffy used advanced armament in that clash. Yes, we saw a bunch of lightning. But a bunch of lightning is just indicative of high amounts of haki, it can even be basic armament haki and not necessarily advanced armament.
We know this, because we have seen users who are confirmed not advanced armament users, produce lightning as well.

And again, I ask you. What took Luffy from a YC1 tier to Yonko level?
I say with confidence that it was advanced conqueror's haki, not DF awakening.
If we look at how G4 Luffy with advanced conqueror's performed, versus how G5 Luffy with advanced conqueror's performed. G4 isn't lagging behind that far.

This clash isn't equivalent of Lucci clashing with a thunder bagua. Because thunder bagua is a high end Yonko attack with advanced conqueror's haki.
The clash we have is Luffy with (likely) just basic armament.

***********

As for future sight, yeah I agree. It (and observation haki in general) are amongst the more inconsistent aspects of OP at this point

But I think that is understandable.
Luffy or Kaido aren't observation haki specialists. Unlike Katakuri, whose entire fighting style revolves around using future sight + logia-esque body tweak to dodge attacks.

 

[LaGOAT]

It doesn’t matter just like didn’t make sense for luffy to jumps tiers same logic with Lucci as long as it’s consistent I mean crocodile is gonna be Next. Admiral lvl crocodile

 

[kkck]

Yeah, considering crocodile's innane bounty (higher than marco's, king's) it's not that big a stretch that oda will solve the apparent lack of yonko level folk to threaten luffy with by simply powering up people to whatever nonsense he needs. Law went from getting schooled by doflamingo to holding his ground against big mom and seemingly BB with basically nothing in between. It's beyond stupid for lucci to be anywhere close to even the weakest known YC1 (katakuri)... or even people like doflamingo but at this point I wouldn't put it past oda to just torpedo him or other comparable randos to admiral level or higher. If lucci gets to be comparable to sweet commanders or calamities then we might as well get yonko level kuro, krieg as a match to marco, yonko level arlong and enel attaining literal godhood.

 

[Wurstkuche]

I love Zoro so I’m extremely bias but is Kizaru really too strong for him? I think seeing his DC at the end of Wano made it hard to believe he couldn’t injury an admiral if he put the bandana on. But yea I’m open to a sober assessment

 

[Pirate Queen]

I love Zoro so I’m extremely bias but is Kizaru really too strong for him? I think seeing his DC at the end of Wano made it hard to believe he couldn’t injury an admiral if he put the bandana on. But yea I’m open to a sober assessment

You just need CoA to hurt one of the Admirals. Zoro has plenty of firepower now that he has ACoC but Admirals are beyond resilient and Kizaru is especially destructive.

I don't think anyone thinks Zoro can't HURT an Admiral. Nothing is more durable than Kaido and Zoro already cut him so there's that.

 

[Nie Li]

You just need CoA to hurt one of the Admirals. Zoro has plenty of firepower now that he has ACoC but Admirals are beyond resilient and Kizaru is especially destructive.

I don't think anyone thinks Zoro can't HURT an Admiral. Nothing is more durable than King with his flame on his back and Zoro already cut him so there's that.

I noticed you made a slight typo.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I noticed you made a slight typo.

That's cute that you think so but I'll stand by my words.

 

[Nie Li]

That's cute that you think so but I'll stand by my words.

It depends what you're saying by "durability", but here are the facts: Kaido can take way more damage, but King is harder to damage.

Zoro could get slashes on Kaido without fully going aCoC, but he couldn't even injure speed-mode King without aCoC. So King, and Seraphims now, are more relevant to the discussion of "who needs more damage output to be injured".

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2022, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2022 ---

And I did King a disservice with how I phrased that: Zoro, even with aCoC, couldn't injure King with his flames on his back to the very end.

Lunarians with the flames on their back are simply the hardest characters on the series.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It depends what you're saying by "durability", but here are the facts: Kaido can take way more damage, but King is harder to damage.

Zoro could get slashes on Kaido without fully going aCoC, but he couldn't even injure speed-mode King without aCoC. So King, and Seraphims now, are more relevant to the discussion of "who needs more damage output to be injured".

King never had flames on after Zoro pushed him away with CoC so EVEN IF you wanted to argue that King is more durable than Kaido, your original statement that Zoro could hurt King with Flames on is simply false. We never seen that happen. And I had to reread the fight to make sure.

My original point stands, if Zoro can hurt Kaido... he can hurt Kizaru

 

[Nie Li]

King never had flames on after Zoro pushed him away with CoC so EVEN IF you wanted to argue that King is more durable than Kaido, your original statement that Zoro could hurt King with Flames on is simply false. We never seen that happen. And I had to reread the fight to make sure.

My original point stands, if Zoro can hurt Kaido... he can hurt Kizaru

My statement wasn't that Zoro could hurt King, but that he can't. He said so himself during the fight. He waited for King to go speed-mode to use aCoC and counter him there because "he just can't injure him" in defense mode. Unless Zoro is underestimating himself and making the fight harder on himself, I take his word for it.

Never argued with the Kaido and Kizaru point.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Never argued with the Kaido and Kizaru point.

"Nothing is more durable than King with his flame on his back and Zoro already cut him so there's that."

Your the one changing my words around. Don't do that next time and there won't be confusion.

Kaido is more durable than the version of King that Zoro was able to cut. And I stand by that.

That being said, surely you agree with my bottom line. No one seriously believes Zoro can't cut Kizaru

 

[Nie Li]

This is the simplest X can injure A, but X can't injure "B with his flames on", so "B with his flames on is harder than A".


Doesn't mean King stands any kind of chance against Kaido, and we saw King go down after taking 3 damaging attacks while Kaido tanked tens of them, so it's obvious who can take more damage in a fight, but that doesn't take away King has one very specific stat above him. Just like Katakuri more than likely has better CoO than his mother but doesn't stand a chance against her.

 

[Pirate Queen]

This is the simplest X can injure A, but X can't injure "B with his flames on", so "B with his flames on is harder than A".


Doesn't mean King stands any kind of chance against Kaido, and we saw King go down after taking 3 damaging attacks while Kaido tanked tens of them, so it's obvious who can take more damage in a fight, but that doesn't take away King has one very specific stat above him. Just like Katakuri more than likely has better CoO than his mother but doesn't stand a chance against her.

Katakuri one shot Meme Mom


(Unless Ceasar cheat code gases him)

 

[Nie Li]

"Nothing is more durable than King with his flame on his back and Zoro already cut him so there's that."

Your the one changing my words around. Don't do that next time and there won't be confusion.

Kaido is more durable than the version of King that Zoro was able to cut. And I stand by that.

That being said, surely you agree with my bottom line. No one seriously believes Zoro can't cut Kizaru

I didn't pay attention to the "and...", just to the "Nothing is more durable than". I wasn't posting to hype Zoro, but to correct what's the hardest.

 

[grey matter]

The final attack Zoro used against King was in his defence mode IMO, just that it wasn't really visible due to all the flames in the panels from King's finisher. Maybe the anime will make it clearer.

King was also defending himself in his defence mode (here there visuals are clearer), with Zoro asking if he was scared of getting hurt.

 

[BlackTiger]

- Luffy was not YC1 tier at that point IMO, he was more of a YC2+. Luffy back then was comparable to Katakuri in stats, and what makes Katakuri a YC1 is future sight + mochi body. When it comes to pure stats, King and Marco are a cut above that dude, because what makes them YC1 is their stats,
Luffy at that same point, would not beat Marco or King (or maybe even someone like Jozu), because the tools required to beat them are different from that required against Katakuri.

- Final and most important point. A heavily injured and exhausted Zoro, and Law, tanked a thunder bagua from a hybrid (i.e stronger) Kaido. The same rooftop Zoro, then got ragrolled by King.
So either rooftop Zoro (who is confirmed weaker and definitely far less tankier than King) and Law are leagues tankier than Katakuri and beginning of Wano Luffy. Or the Luffy one shot was an outlier.
No matter what conclusion you come to from this, my point stands. Either Katakuri was a relative glass canon, and hence a Luffy who was equivalent in stats to him getting one shot shouldn't be a default indicator to how other YC1s could/should perform. Or, this was an outlier, and hence shouldn't be used as an indicator to how YC1s perform.

Kaido 1 shot non FS Boundman Luffy. That mode cannot beat Cracker. Besides act 1 Luffy fought Kaido for 30 minutes since Luffy got 1 shot by Kaido the moment Boundman Luffy stopped attacking which could be because he was running out of haki. Law and Zoro also took Thunder Bagua to their bodies.

Marco and King only have better durability. Marco has lower ap while King has comparable or better ap due to his magma. Speed wise keeping up with Snakeman that blitzed Kaido is much better speed feat than getting blitzed by Zoro (King) or Big Mom (Marco).

Luffy in WCI had the tools to beat Marco. Just beat him until he runs out of regen. Luffy tanked a lot of advCoC on the rooftop so tanking Marco's attacks shouldn't be a problem for him. Marco is also not that fast if Big Mom could easily tag him. As for King, Luffy might unlock internal destruction by remembering his flashback with Rayleigh which would help him to damage King's internal organ therefore bypassing his Lunarian hax. Haki blooms in the midst of extreme battle so Luffy might unlock internal destruction earlier by having extreme battle with King compared to Udon where there were only fodders for Luffy to train.

Yeah, considering crocodile's innane bounty (higher than marco's, king's) it's not that big a stretch that oda will solve the apparent lack of yonko level folk to threaten luffy with by simply powering up people to whatever nonsense he needs. Law went from getting schooled by doflamingo to holding his ground against big mom and seemingly BB with basically nothing in between. It's beyond stupid for lucci to be anywhere close to even the weakest known YC1 (katakuri)... or even people like doflamingo but at this point I wouldn't put it past oda to just torpedo him or other comparable randos to admiral level or higher. If lucci gets to be comparable to sweet commanders or calamities then we might as well get yonko level kuro, krieg as a match to marco, yonko level arlong and enel attaining literal godhood.

Only known to people who skip reading WCI which shows FS and Snakeman speed are required to hit FS user with logia intangibility and think that Marco/King is as fast as Snakeman that blitzed Kaido.

 

[Nie Li]

Only known to people who skip reading WCI which shows FS and Snakeman speed are required to hit FS user with logia intangibility and think that Marco/King is as fast as Snakeman that blitzed Kaido.

There was a Future Sight logia user that was defeated by an opponent with no CoO and not even Gear 2 (Luffy vs Enel).

There are ways to overcome FS without being a FS user yourself or a speedster. Caesar showed that again a couple of chapters ago. FS is cool and useful, but it's also overhyped as some unbeatable thing, which it isn't.

 

[BlackTiger]

There was a Future Sight logia user that was defeated by an opponent with no CoO and not even Gear 2 (Luffy vs Enel).

There are ways to overcome FS without being a FS user yourself or a speedster. Caesar showed that again a couple of chapters ago. FS is cool and useful, but it's also overhyped as some unbeatable thing, which it isn't.

Enel didn't have Future Sight. Luffy's df countered his lightning df power. Enel is also not faster than base Luffy. Katakuri is as fast as Snakeman. If you want to compare FS+logia intangibility, compare Katakuri with Akainu. Akainu can shape shift his body to make CoA attacks bypass his body so Akainu has FS. Akainu is slower than Snakeman since Snakeman blitzed Kaido while Akainu cannot blitz sick old WB who cannot use CoO. By virtue Katakuri keeping up with Snakeman makes him faster than Akainu. Even among FS+logia user Katakuri remains on top in term of speed and FS mastery except Kizaru since Kizaru should be faster than Snakeman. Admiral still>Katakuri in overall power level imo.

Caesar had to sneak attack Katakuri. Do you mean Marco/King/Zoro has to use sneak attack to hit Katakuri? Which again doesn't disprove that in 1on 1 you need FS and Snakeman speed or sneak attack to hit Katakuri. FS+logia intangibility remain invincible in 1 on 1 setting. Akainu a FS user didn't notice sick old WB who cannot use haki snuck behind him. That doesn't change Akainu is still a monster who Marco and Vista cannot hurt with CoA.

It's not overhyped. Snakeman is always downplayed. Before chapter 1042 many people said King/Marco is faster than Snakeman so they can make arguments that Marco/King can hit Katakuri.

Chapter 1042 shut them down when Snakeman blitzed Kaido and only by using FS and copying Snakeman trajectory that Kaido could counter Snakeman.

Since Vegapunk is developing an object that could touch light, if Kizaru in Egghead gets tagged by Vegapunk robots (which obviously are slower than Snakeman) then it's over for Kizaru being the fastest character in the series. Snakeman/Katakuri could be the fastest character in the series.

 

[kkck]

Only known to people who skip reading WCI which shows FS and Snakeman speed are required to hit FS user with logia intangibility and think that Marco/King is as fast as Snakeman that blitzed Kaido.

What?

 

[BlackTiger]

What?

To make it simple Akainu cannot blitz the weakest yonko who cannot use haki while Snakeman blitzed Kaido. Snakeman is faster than Akainu by virtue Katakuri is also faster than Akainu for keeping up with Snakeman. Marco with Vista's help cannot hit Akainu. Katakuri being the weakest YC1 is only possible if Marco/King can beat Katakuri and that's obviously by hitting him. Can they do that when Marco cannot hit Akainu who is slower and has worse CoO than Katakuri?