Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
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Yeah Luffy and Lucci were rookies and Moria did substantially get weaker due to laziness but even so during the actual Moria vs Luffy fight, I didn't see Luffy struggle against Moria but more so against the effects of Gear 2 and Gear 3. Moria managed to land 2 blows on Luffy and Luffy landed way many more. Moria was good at sneaking away but at fighting he was not adept. He had the strength to break an island but that was more so due to his size.
He made himself a huge target when he swallowed 1000 shadows. I believe Lucci would have been able to handle him as well.
Im even inclined to claim that a single Pre-TS Pacifista could defeat Moria. Remember, it took the Monster Trio + their Special Move to finally take down ONE single Pacifista and they were exhausted
Granted luffy didn't use his gears at the time but... moria's shadow could easily handle base luffy at that point and that without moria trying at all. Luffy did sneak an attack in but that's not really that much of a feat given the circumstances.
Shadow asgard moria... The guy took way more shadows than he could actually control and was loosing consciousness through the fight. Sure, from a physical standpoint he was intimidating but he was barely using his devil fruit techniques to fight and struggled to even keep the shadows in. It's hard to imagine moria at that point being an improvement over his base form considering he basically became a big ass target that could barely hold it together.
On the pacifista front... Yeah, moria being about comparable to a pacifista is not that big a stretch. Though considering his showing against oars it's not that crazy to think moria has the firepower to actually destroy a pacifista in one hit... if he can land the hit he needs. As we know the pacifiista at that point far outpassed pre time skip luffy, evidenced by the sheer amount of effort it took for the entire crew to barely take out one.
Im even inclined to claim that a single Pre-TS Pacifista could defeat Moria. Remember, it took the Monster Trio + their Special Move to finally take down ONE single Pacifista and they were exhausted
Naah. They freaked out with the Pacifista thinking it was Kuma.
The Pacifista are weak at the head, Usopp found that out, then they all exploited that. Nami's lighting also works regardless of where it hits. The Pacifista went down very quickly afterwards.
Usopp is very good at running and shooting. If Pre-Skip Usopp can potentially beat one, then they obviously are not stronger than Moria.
And Giant-Jet Shell would have sent the Pacifista off Team Rocket style.
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Like what you all don't consider: if someone wears armor and you hit him at the armor, not causing damage, but there are also spots where he is unarmored, then the fault is entirely on your part.
The NW captains quickly got where too strike, too. We've seen the structure of Yonko Crews three times now and can somewhat relate these guys, and no Yonko crew has 50 Morias.
I am reading what you are saying. And I am saying that suggesting kaku can match a punch from jyabura because of doriki is almost definitely nonsense which ignores how combat in the series works. The only scenario where that can happen is that kaku also matches jyabura's skill in punching which as far as we know is unlikely.
There is skill in fighting....What skill is there in punching?
For punching, physical strength and tekkai/haki is what matters....unless you are someone whose skill improve your striking power (like Luffy's rubber).
In this case, both are in base human form, and both their transformation are straight forward zoans. Punching power in their base is really just that
Another interpretation is that doriki is measuring the actual force of the punch in the same way that a real world boxing punch sensor is used. This means that some techniques actually can be captured within doriki. The result of this interpretation is that Kaku actually punches harder than Jyabura despite Jyabura having better punching technique due to his martial arts mastery. This implies when all other factors are accounted for that Kaku is actually power level wise a lot stronger than Jyabura. By proxy this would have meant that Zoro is stronger than Sanji and not close.
Personally I think Oda used the whole Fukurou scene as a reference to boxing punch sensors to make it easy for readers to get that its a measure of physical body and not something like ki in DB but at the same time I think doriki is meant to represent overall physical ability not just the ability to punch hard.
They punched/kicked, and the chappapa guy just measured the force.
Him somehow measuring a vague idea of "physical strength without skill/tekkai etc" instead of just straight forward measuring the force/physical-power is a massive reach IMO, which is unsubstantiated
Naah. They freaked out with the Pacifista thinking it was Kuma.
The Pacifista are weak at the head, Usopp found that out, then they all exploited that. Nami's lighting also works regardless of where it hits. The Pacifista went down very quickly afterwards.
Usopp is very good at running and shooting. If Pre-Skip Usopp can potentially beat one, then they obviously are not stronger than Moria.
And Giant-Jet Shell would have sent the Pacifista off Team Rocket style.
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Like what you all don't consider: if someone wears armor and you hit him at the armor, not causing damage, but there are also spots where he is unarmored, then the fault is entirely on your part.
The NW captains quickly got where too strike, too. We've seen the structure of Yonko Crews three times now and can somewhat relate these guys, and no Yonko crew has 50 Morias.
LMAO. Pre-TS Usopp beating a Pacifista. LOL. All they did was managed to enrage the Pacifista. No way is Pre-TS and even Post-TS Usopp defeating a Pacifista. If you have no idea how much significance Oda placed on the Pacifista during SA and Return to SA then you're missing the plot.
The Pacifista were there to be a bench marker or a wall for Luffy/ Monster Trio to hit but ultimately overcome. Usopp was no way ready for that maybe until Wano/Onigashima.
The crew freaked out because they thought it was the real Kuma but even after fighting it they didn't want to encounter another one. Luffy understood they were unmatched for another PX and Sentomaru, Kizaru was being occupied by Rayleigh.
Moria could possibly dodge or evade the Pacifista with his shadow but in a head on battle I don't see Moria winning against a Pacifista. Even with 1000 shadows.
How strong were Pre TS Lucci, Kaku and Jabura compared to other Pre TS characters? And how far would they fare against NW characters?
I remember someone stated Page One was weaker than Pre TS Luffy. LOL.
IMO Pre TS Lucci was as strong if not slightly stronger than Moria and would give Kid, Law, and Drake a tough match.
Pre TS Lucci won the battle versus Luffy, but thanks to the power of friendship (Usopp) Luffy stood up again.
Cause Oda retconned everything cause he didn't plan far ahead.
At this point I would simply put all pre TS characters in a different basket and forget about them lmao. A bit of a cop out answer I know lol
But if you ask me where they are and not have this cop out answer.
I say........judge pre TS characters based on their global portrayal, infamy, recognition etc. And ignore their feats against the Strawhats.....pretend like those didn't exist
Lucci for example was regarded as a myth amongst the marines and govt agents, someone they could hardly believe existed. I would say he was Tobiroppo level at least, as ridiculous as it sounds. Kaku and Jyabura were low Tobiroppo level.
Of course it's BS..........but look at where Crocodile is now at lmao. Went from losing to base hakiless Luffy, to at least a mid YC level character.
Cause Oda retconned everything cause he didn't plan far ahead.
At this point I would simply put all pre TS characters in a different basket and forget about them lmao. A bit of a cop out answer I know lol
But if you ask me where they are and not have this cop out answer.
I say........judge pre TS characters based on their global portrayal, infamy, recognition etc. And ignore their feats against the Strawhats.....pretend like those didn't exist
Lucci for example was regarded as a myth amongst the marines and govt agents, someone they could hardly believe existed. I would say he was Tobiroppo level at least, as ridiculous as it sounds. Kaku and Jyabura were low Tobiroppo level.
Of course it's BS..........but look at where Crocodile is now at lmao. Went from losing to base hakiless Luffy, to at least a mid YC level character.
Im only bringing up a different topic than the usual that gets boring real quick. Something not many people talk about. Yeah most people don't care about pre ts characters or even say Dressrosa colosseum fighters or so. So why not change the topic of discussion.
I don't think Oda retconned everything and everyone. There are a few rare exceptions with Crocodile being the only one I can think of. I don't bother judging Crocodile's Alabasta feats, but rather his Marineford feats and whatever new ones we might see. I don't judge him by his bounty, which I think is extraordinarily huge, both his and Hancock's. I refuse to believe they are YC1 due to having such high bounties.
Okay back to the main discussion.
That does sound ridiculous and exactly like some other person claimed here when they place Page One on their list as Pre TS level characters.
Pre TS CP9 members were NOT New World veteran level. They were at best Paradise veterans. I think Oda made it clear when he showed the level and progress of the Straw Hats in Pre TS Sabaody and Post TS Sabaody.
If claiming Pre TS Lucci was Flying 6 level, then that would make Pre TS Enies Lobby Gear 2/3 Luffy Flying 6 level and there's no way Pre TS Luffy was competing with Page One or Ulti.
I don't see the point of arguing over Kaku vs Jabra when the author literally provided powerlevels for them
The CP9 have dozens of techniques, including one that makes their limbs as sharp as blades, I don't see how a pair of swords can be a gamechanger
Kaku himself calls his style "Four Swords Style" because he also use his legs in battle, holding two swords for him must be the equivalent of boxing gloves, it's better to have it in a fight but not essential
Zoro without his swords is fodder. You think Zoro without his swords can beat Mr. 1, Ohm? Saying Kaku without his swords=Kaku with his swords is disingenuous. It's very dishonest. Even if you call Kaku legs can be swords, Kaku doesn't use his 2 swords and he's still =>Jyabura,
Kaku with his sword>>Jyabura
Yes Kaku with his swords can 1 shot Jyabura. That how fodder Jyabura is Kaku doesn't need his swords to beat him. Had Kaku attacked Fukuro with his sword, his doriki would be around 3000 or more.
Manga shows how Kaku without his swords is stronger than Jyabura just like chapter 1042 shows how Snakeman treated Kaido like a bitch and Katakuri scales up to Snakeman in speed so yes Kaido needs luck shoot or outlast Katakuri haki to beat him. Kaku with his swords can 1 shot Jyabura. Both my opinions are backed by the manga. Your opinion Marco> or =King is baseless. It's just a recency bias.
Who cares if Katakuri bounty is lower than King/Marco?
WB bounty was lower than Roger's yet WB was still perceived as WSM and Roger's equal. WG didn't care about the bounties of people Luffy and Zoro defeated (Katakuri/King) when they decided bounties on Luffy and Zoro after WCI and Wano.
WB called Shanks and Mihawk duel legendary and reminder Shanks bounty at that moment was 1.04 b even lower than Katakuri. Mihawk got his bounty because he has better swordsmanship than Shanks and again this was Shanks with 1.04 b berries on his head.
Bounty is not my only argument. I presented other arguments.
Rayleigh about FS users (Katakuri included): They are among the mightiest
Ryokugyu about King who low diffed Marco: You are a bozo.
I also presented other arguments how Katakuri is much faster than Akainu (Jinbe tagged Akainu but cannot tag Katakuri). Marco and Vista combined cannot hit slower Akainu proving Marco and Vista combined cannot hit Katakuri while Katakuri can punch Marco until his regen runs out which proves Katakuri supriority over marco. You ignored this point on purpose.
In WG perception, defeating Katakuri was a bigger threat than beating King who low diffed Marco.
Lol where was I crying at. I always motivate the forum to ignore nonsense Or circle debates.
You aren’t using facts. You are using your bias & warped perspective of the facts to suit your agenda . Which is your horrible opinion about a YC1 vs a Yonkou….either way….I only say something when you get hella rude with the forum…..I don’t get the urge to spread this bad opinion every 2 weeks that nobody is gravitating to.
You're crying because nobody can refute what I said so crying and asking other people to ignore me is your beat way to cope.
You cannot explain the reason why my opinions are horrible when I presented arguments from the manga.
Snakeman treated Kaido like a bitch. Katakuri scales to Snakeman in speed. Tell me how Kaido low diffs Katakuri. Kaido needs lucky shoot or outlast Katakuri haki to beat him. How is this bias? Explain how it's a bad opinion when this is backed by the manga.
Does Oda need to tell you that Katakuri is as fast as Snakeman and Snakeman is much faster than Kaido to make you understand the massive huge in speed between Kaido and Katakuri? I'm sure you're an adult and you can read the manga fine without other people spoonfeed you.
Mihawk has 3.59 b berries for having better swordsmanship than 1.04 b berries Shanks already killed this argument. I guarantee that Mihawk bounty won't reach 1.5 b berries if he had better swordsmanship than Jack/Queen/Cracker/Smoothie.
WG didn't care if Katakuri's bounty is lower. They viewed Katakuri to be stronger than Marco/King which was the reason why beating Katakuri was viewed as a bigger threat than beating King who trashed Marco around.
Saying Kaku without his swords=Kaku with his swords is disingenuous. It's very dishonest. Even if you call Kaku legs can be swords, Kaku doesn't use his 2 swords and he's still =>Jyabura,
Kaku with his sword>>Jyabura
Yes Kaku with his swords can 1 shot Jyabura. That how fodder Jyabura is Kaku doesn't need his swords to beat him. Had Kaku attacked Fukuro with his sword, his doriki would be around 3000 or more.
Mihawk has 3.59 b berries for having better swordsmanship than 1.04 b berries Shanks already killed this argument. I guarantee that Mihawk bounty won't reach 1.5 b berries if he had better swordsmanship than Jack/Queen/Cracker/Smoothie.
WG didn't care if Katakuri's bounty is lower. They viewed Katakuri to be stronger than Marco/King which was the reason why beating Katakuri was viewed as a bigger threat than beating King who trashed Marco around.
No it isn't it. Kaku without his swords would have trouble to break Jyabura tekkai with his fists/kicks because their doriki difference is only 20. With kaku's swords, he is much more lethal and he can break Jyabura tekkai much easier.
With his swords Kaku has more number of tools to attack instead just of using his legs. Which one is stronger Hatchan with 4 limbs or Hatchan with 2 limbs? Kaku using his swords is equal to Kaku being able to use his 4 limbs to attack (both of his hands and both of his legs) while without his swords, Kaku relies on kick (2 limbs)
Tekkai kenpo is useless because Kaku can break his tekkai with his swords considering Kaku without his swords was already physically stronger than Jyabura. There's no stats that Jyabura better than Kaku at. While Kaku with his swords can make the gap even bigger.
You forgot Kaku has specialized in rankyaku so this argument is moot. Rankyaku specialized Kaku with swords>>>>Rankyaku specialized Kaku>>>>Takkei specialist Jyabura
Why being able to move while using tekkai is an advantage for Jyabura? It's no different than someone moving while using CoA. With Kaku lethality on top of having higher doriki than Jyabura, cutting Jyabura down whether he moves or not won't be a trouble for Kaku.
Kaku having a sword is a big power up for his doriki or attack power. Jyabura doesn't have anything that can increase his attack potency. Even his shigan moves are pale in comparison to Kaku rankyaku moves.
Kaku on top of having rankyaku, he also has swords which boosts his ap even further.
Kaku without his swords=>Jyabura
Kaku with his swords>>Jyabura
Already used Mihawk argument having 3.59b berries for having better swordsmanship than 1.04 b berries SHanks. Mihawk won't have 3.59b berries for having better swordsmanship than 1.32 b berries Queen. So Katakuri having smaller bounty than King/Marco is irrelevant. WG knew Katakuri is stronger than King/Marco so beating him was viewed as a bigger threat.
Yep congratulation you finally understand how bounty works.
Does that answer your question? Sanji had 1.032 b berries for beating 1.32b berries Queen while Mihawk had 3.59b berries bounty for having better swordsmanship than 1.04b berries Shanks should answer why Katakuri having a lower bounty than King/Marco is irrelevant.
The relevant thing is the bounty their opponents got (Luffy and Zoro) after beating them just like 1.04 b berries Shanks and 1.32b berries Queen comparison.
No it isn't it. Kaku without his swords would have trouble to break Jyabura tekkai with his fists/kicks because their doriki difference is only 20. With kaku's swords, he is much more lethal and he can break Jyabura tekkai much easier.
With his swords Kaku has more number of tools to attack instead just of using his legs. Which one is stronger Hatchan with 4 limbs or Hatchan with 2 limbs? Kaku using his swords is equal to Kaku being able to use his 4 limbs to attack (both of his hands and both of his legs) while without his swords, Kaku relies on kick (2 limbs)
Tekkai kenpo is useless because Kaku can break his tekkai with his swords considering Kaku without his swords was already physically stronger than Jyabura. There's no stats that Jyabura better than Kaku at. While Kaku with his swords can make the gap even bigger.
You forgot Kaku has specialized in rankyaku so this argument is moot. Rankyaku specialized Kaku with swords>>>>Rankyaku specialized Kaku>>>>Takkei specialist Jyabura
Why being able to move while using tekkai is an advantage for Jyabura? It's no different than someone moving while using CoA. With Kaku lethality on top of having higher doriki than Jyabura, cutting Jyabura down whether he moves or not won't be a trouble for Kaku.
Kaku having a sword is a big power up for his doriki or attack power. Jyabura doesn't have anything that can increase his attack potency. Even his shigan moves are pale in comparison to Kaku rankyaku moves.
Kaku on top of having rankyaku, he also has swords which boosts his ap even further.
Kaku without his swords=>Jyabura
Kaku with his swords>>Jyabura
Already used Mihawk argument having 3.59b berries for having better swordsmanship than 1.04 b berries SHanks. Mihawk won't have 3.59b berries for having better swordsmanship than 1.32 b berries Queen. So Katakuri having smaller bounty than King/Marco is irrelevant. WG knew Katakuri is stronger than King/Marco so beating him was viewed as a bigger threat.
Because Katakuri is a stronger YC1
You mean after Zoro beat King? yes you can read finally.
Yep congratulation you finally understand how bounty works.
Does that answer your question? Sanji had 1.032 b berries for beating 1.32b berries Queen while Mihawk had 3.59b berries bounty for having better swordsmanship than 1.04b berries Shanks should answer why Katakuri having a lower bounty than King/Marco is irrelevant.
The relevant thing is the bounty their opponents got (Luffy and Zoro) after beating them just like 1.04 b berries Shanks and 1.32b berries Queen comparison.
make sense. Zoro without Enma cannot scar Kaido. Kaku with his swords can use his arms to attack as well so attack with 4 limbs. Hatchan with 4 limbs>Hatchan with 2 limbs
Zoro's Hiryu Kaen was one of his strongest attack but Zoro still rely on his 3 swords just like Kaku so no difference even if Amane Dahi was kaku's strongest attack
Zoro is kaku. What's the purpose of Kaku using swords if these swords don't make his attacks more lethal? Only his legs are like swords not his arms which he relied to use swords.
Zoro with his fists cannot scar Kaido. Only with Enma he can scar Kaido.
Now Kaku with his punch got 2200 doriki. It's disingenuous to say had kaku attacking Fukuro with his swords, his doriki would stay 2200 dorkiki
That's like saying Zoro with Enma can scar Kaido and without Enma Zoro can scar Kaido too.
Ace can produce larger and hotter flame than Usopp.
Shiet. Ryokugyu ragdolled King. King ragdolled Marco. Marco put up a fight and stalled Big Mom and Kizaru.
Ryokugyu is easily the strongest Admiral, confirmed.
Shiet. Ryokugyu ragdolled King. King ragdolled Marco. Marco put up a fight and stalled Big Mom and Kizaru.
Ryokugyu is easily the strongest Admiral, confirmed.
Marco got df advantage over BM without df advantage he cannot beat Queen. Kizaru was trolling throughout the war. Akainu alone solo Marco and his whole WBP commanders
Kaku himself said if he can control his neck and limbs, he can use his sword to its full potential. Kaku was actually nerfed with his df. He cannot use his swordplay to its full potential because he was not used to his df and still pushed Zoro to use Ashura unlike Jyabura.
Marco got df advantage over BM without df advantage he cannot beat Queen. Kizaru was trolling throughout the war. Akainu alone solo Marco and his whole WBO commanders
He has a Devil Fruit advantage on most people.
Marco was trolling and not letting King and Queen do shit while simultaneously wasting stamina on the entire plateau in order to halt the Ice Oni Virus from spreading. And at the end of the fight, he only ran out of stamina and was in no way overwhelmed or meaningfully damaged by either King or Queen.
He has a Devil Fruit advantage on most people.
Marco was trolling and not letting King and Queen do shit while simultaneously wasting stamina on the entire plateau in order to halt the Ice Oni Virus from spreading. And at the end of the fight, he only ran out of stamina and was in no way overwhelmed or meaningfully damaged by either King or Queen.
Nope Marco df nullified Prometheus. That's the df advantage Marco had over Big Mom. Without that advantage, Marco cannot hurt Queen despite sneak attacks. Queen was fine a chapter later from Marco's strongest attacks.
While Queen was busy with Chopper and Sanji, Marco was left with King without being able to damage him and got humiliated instead to the point Marco started believing in God.
Yes Akainu after getting injured by WB solo Marco, Vista and whole WBP commanders. Fresh Akainu solo Marco and Vista faster than Ryokugyu solo King and Queen.
Nope Marco df nullified Prometheus. That's the df advantage Marco had over Big Mom. Without that advantage, Marco cannot hurt Queen despite sneak attacks. Queen was fine a chapter later from Marco's strongest attacks.
While Queen was busy with Chopper and Sanji, Marco was left with King without being able to damage him and got humiliated instead to the point Marco started believing in God.
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Yes Akainu after getting injured by WB solo Marco, Vista and whole WBP commanders. Fresh Akainu solo Marco and Vista faster than Ryokugyu solo King and Queen.
Big Mom is not Prometheus; she had a million other ways to defeat Marco, but realized she would have to actually put in effort and didn't want to bother.
Marco was doing more damage to Queen than vice-versa. Queen was virtually being bullied and was unable to do anything in the meantime. Sure, Marco didn't beat him, but that's because it wasn't Marco's intention to do so, as he had to help everyone else while also keeping King busy. Portrayal, my friend.
Also, show me the panel in which King humiliated Marco, as I must've missed it.
Marco was fine after the fight with Akainu; that cannot be said for King and Queen. Being overwhelmed has layers to it.
Big Mom is not Prometheus; she has a million other ways to defeat Marco, but realized she would have to actually put in effort and didn't want to bother.
She had to put effort because Marco df nullified her homies. Not because of Marco's own strength. This is Luffy vs Enel all over again. Luffy beat Enel and Enel beat Zoro but that doesn't mean Luffy can humiliate Zoro as hard as Enel did.
She had to put effort because Marco df nullified her homies. Not because of Marco's own strength. This is Luffy vs Enel all over again. Luffy beat Enel and Enel beat Zoro but that doesn't mean Luffy can humiliate Zoro as hard as Enel did.
HC Queen was clean this chapter after taking Marco strongest attacks a chapter prior
No damage on Queen's face.
Yep with sneak attacks. Marco never showed superiority over Queen in a direct combat.
Headcannon. His portrayal was to beat them. Why would Marco hold back? Was he a retard and not using his full power against 2 calamities?
Portrayal is Marco only had df advantage over Big Mom without it he cannot beat Queen.
Queen was busy with Chopper and Sanji so the only person who can do this to Marco was King.
Only a short battle+Akainu was injured after fighting WB+Marco got the help from 15+ WBP commanders.
He got overwhelmed by King solo panel above proves it.
Marco only overwhelmed Prometheus; Big Mom could have used a haki-infused Napoleon to do damage. The Enel comparison is just ridiculous, because his entire arsenal suddenly became useless against Luffy. On the other hand, Big Mom lost a small portion of her arsenal.
Blood on someone's face literally means nothing. Luffy's Red Roc made Kaido bleed, while multiple, CoC-infused punches to the face failed to convey the same damage, despite clearly being stronger. Relax, you're nitpicking.
Marco overwhelmed King in a direct 1-on-1, who is stronger than Queen. Make of that what you will.
And nope, Marco always said he was there to buy time and stall King and Queen, because the lead actors were Zoro and Sanji. Mind you, this is a considerably nerfed Marco. I agree he cannot beat King and Queen together, but a 1-on-1 was never the case. The panel you showed clearly says Marco ran out of stamina, noting that he was tired from multitasking for tens of chapters - King did not overwhelm him, Marco ran out of fuel.
