One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

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This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I've always been extremely skeptical with the whole balance of powers thing. The Marine's definitely are collectively way more powerful than the other two groups. They likely have thousands of ships and hundreds of warships at the minimum. They have hundreds of thousands if not millions of foot soldier marines. They have dozens of VAs some of whom are definitely YC level fighters, and even a few YC1+ since they were considered for position of Admiral during the time skip. They also have the best tools/technology, especially for warfare. On top of that they have the Admirals who can definitely fight Yonko 1v1, and very likely defeat 2 v 1. I've just never seen any reason to think the 4 Yonko even working together could take the Marine's full forces (all their soldiers, VAs, Admirals, etc) in a head on confrontation.

My view is that the balance of power is meant to indicate that the forces the Marine's could easily pull together in short time frame is the equivalent of a Yonko crew. The one weakness with the Marine's is they are spread very thin vs the Yonko who are very concentrated together in one small region the, the new world whereas the Marine's are global. So if a Yonko crew just goes straight at Marineford I think it would be a difficult battle for the Marines's purely since Marine's will only have the forces they gathered in short time frame of likely days.

 

[albertwv]

Don't misunderstand me, I said the Yonko as a collective group meaning all 4 Yonkos with their pirate crews, which could be a force close to 50,000 NW veteran pirates were stronger than all of the WG/Marines + Marines. I'm talking about Old WB, Kaido, Shanks and Big Mom plus their YC's and YE's and allied pirate crews. They all together are stronger than the OG Admirals, Garp, Sengoku, CP0, VA's, and Original 7 Warlords.

Yet the original Yonko never formed up, but if they had, then the WG would have collapsed.
The Admirals would have been handled by the Yonko themselves and they would have lost, including Garp and Sengoku. Remember, Garp was against fighting both Rayleigh and WB who were already old at the same time, because the Marines would have most likely lost many casualties. Old Ray is close to admiral level below Yonko level and that is only one man.

The Warlords would have been handled by the YC's, the only who could maybe be a problem would be Mihawk, but I have faith in the YC's to take him down. There are like 12 YC's and only 7 Warlords.

The Vice Admirals and CP0 agents would be defeated by the Yonko Executives, which outnumbered them as well. I don't see WW, Ulti, Oven, Daifuku, losing to any VA besides Garp.

The math works out in favor of the Yonkos.

 

[XXGenesis]

Closest thing we had to All of the Yonkou teaming up was The Rocks Crew……..

Still I think the major point is that the WG has enough resources & power to crush a Yonkou group……..They do.



I don’t understand the noob/rookie lack of understanding that, The Balance of Power is exactly that a balance…If one major event happens it can domino effect into a more uncontrollable event…

I.E Kaido heading to MF…
BB heading to MF &
the Red hair pirates…
Shanks maintained peace, if he didn’t..The Marines would have had to continue fighting yonkou group after yonkou group….They wouldn’t be able to recover in that vacuum of power.

Now the WG(IMU) has means to destroy an entire island; They have Buster Call Fleets the ammunition & artillery to shell Down an entire island; Thousands of ships……Unless it’s 2 or more Yonkou lv pirates teaming up, the odds are too overwhelming for anyone person.

*Watch what Kizaru & Gorosei bring to Egghead…It’s gonna be crazy but a Yonkou crew is gonna have to fight and take flight or risk being destroyed..I’m sure.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Don't misunderstand me, I said the Yonko as a collective group meaning all 4 Yonkos with their pirate crews, which could be a force close to 50,000 NW veteran pirates were stronger than all of the WG/Marines + Marines. I'm talking about Old WB, Kaido, Shanks and Big Mom plus their YC's and YE's and allied pirate crews. They all together are stronger than the OG Admirals, Garp, Sengoku, CP0, VA's, and Original 7 Warlords.

Yet the original Yonko never formed up, but if they had, then the WG would have collapsed.
The Admirals would have been handled by the Yonko themselves and they would have lost, including Garp and Sengoku. Remember, Garp was against fighting both Rayleigh and WB who were already old at the same time, because the Marines would have most likely lost many casualties. Old Ray is close to admiral level below Yonko level and that is only one man.

The Warlords would have been handled by the YC's, the only who could maybe be a problem would be Mihawk, but I have faith in the YC's to take him down. There are like 12 YC's and only 7 Warlords.

The Vice Admirals and CP0 agents would be defeated by the Yonko Executives, which outnumbered them as well. I don't see WW, Ulti, Oven, Daifuku, losing to any VA besides Garp.

The math works out in favor of the Yonkos.

I understood you what you meant. I'm arguing the Marines true full force is stronger than all 4 OG Yonko + their crews + their allied pirates combined. The Marine Forces we saw during Marineford is a fraction of their full force. They had Vice Admirals that were strong enough to be considered for Admiral position yet they were not present at Marineford. In all technicality Greenbull and Fujitora also existed out there and if the Marines wanted could have drafted them too. We have many VA that definitely are Yonko Execute level fighters and a few others VAs we know are YC-YC1+ fighters. They had 100k foot soldiers at Marineford which are technically a drop in the bucket compared to their global force.

At the end of the day the Marines are backed by the WG which means they will have far more resources in every single dimension then the 4 Yonko alone can muster. Consider this, the combined territory of all 4 Yonko is just a portion of the New World, not even all of it. The Marine's territory that they oversee spans all 4 oceans and large chunks of the Grand Line. If the Marines total forces are accounted for they'd no question beat pirates in a direct confrontation.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 28, 2023 ---

Closest thing we had to All of the Yonkou teaming up was The Rocks Crew……..

Still I think the major point is that the WG has enough resources & power to crush a Yonkou group……..They do.



I don’t understand the noob/rookie lack of understanding that, The Balance of Power is exactly that a balance…If one major event happens it can domino effect into a more uncontrollable event…

I.E Kaido heading to MF…
BB heading to MF &
the Red hair pirates…
Shanks maintained peace, if he didn’t..The Marines would have had to continue fighting yonkou group after yonkou group….They wouldn’t be able to recover in that vacuum of power.

Now the WG(IMU) has means to destroy an entire island; They have Buster Call Fleets the ammunition & artillery to shell Down an entire island; Thousands of ships……Unless it’s 2 or more Yonkou lv pirates teaming up, the odds are too overwhelming for anyone person.

*Watch what Kizaru & Gorosei bring to Egghead…It’s gonna be crazy but a Yonkou crew is gonna have to fight and take flight or risk being destroyed..I’m sure.

I can agree that the Balance of Power was about maintaining stability between different factions i.e. your example of a run away event leading to unpredictable outcomes. But that doesn't mean the components needed for the stability are equal to each other either. Like you point out if the Marine's put all possible resources into a war they are unmatched by anyone in a direct confrontation. I think we'll all see the total amount of power the Marine's with full backing of WG are capable of in the final war.

 

[grey matter]

Regarding the Shichibukai, balance, 3 great powers..........my take on it

The balancing is shichibukai working together with marines, versus the collective Yonkos.


If we analyze things from Marineford perspective (this is important, because the 3 great powers balance was something which strictly existed only pre-Mareinford, post-Marineford was the slow crumbling of the world balance), marines as an organization is roughly equal to 3 Yonko crews.
They have 5 top tiers in 3 admirals, Sengoku and Garp. But are lacking in commander level characters (I mean, the high-end zodiac Vice Admirals are commander level, but they are few in number).
So collectively, marines are ~ 3 Yonko crews.

Marines can comfortably deal with a single Yonko crew.
But if 2 Yonkos join together, then it poses bit of a threat. They would still win, but would take decent losses.
If 3 Yonkos join together, then it's too close to call.
If 4 Yonkos join together, then it's game over.


This is where Shichibukai come in.
Shichibukai collectively is basically a high end Yonko crew (comparable to WBP/RHP).
Mihawk - yonko level fighter. Other shichibukai being varying commander level fighters, with some of the Shichibukai subordinates passing for executive level.


Now, with the addition of Shichibukai, the marine organization is so powerful that it is potentially equal to 4 Yonkos collectively.

The balance is:
- yonkos keep each other in check, because of their selfish nature preventing each other from working together
- presence of 4 yonkos keeping marines in check. They can't invade and take out a single Yonko, because that would force all the Yonko to team up for self preservation - something marines don't want.
- marines (with shichibukai) remaining the strongest force in the world balanced against collective might of 4 Yonkos.


I don't know if Oda thought so deeply about this balance and powerscaling, but this fits in perfectly IMO. A very cold war esque balance.

 

[kkck]

The balance of power thing is not something that works within the context of the story. Oda simply didn't develop it properly.

In context, WB took pretty much the bulk of his forces to marineford. Himself, his commanders, division members and 50 something affiliated crews. WB pretty much gathered everyone he had available. The marines gathered a substantial part of their forces for the marineford war but they definitely didn't gather everyone. For context, the VAs that were considered for the admiral promotion before fujitora and ryuguku were chosen were not even at the war (gion and tokikake). It's also very likely they had plenty of vice admirals, commodores and other executives stationed elsewhere that didn't appear in the war. Simply because it's impossible to actually gather everyone. The world must continue to function while the war is being fought.

The marines are a real military in both name and in practice. And one that covers literally most of the planet with the exception of unaffiliated kingdoms to the world government. The reality is that it's nigh impossible for the marines to simply take every ounce of strength they have and gather it to fight a yonko. While that would definitely crush a yonko, it would leave every other location vulnerable. The marines in that sense are simply vastly superior to any one yonko crew in a strictly military sense. The marines, being backed by the world government, also have comparatively unlimited resources. I would think it would take at least more than 2 yonko crews for them to actually match the collective might of the world government.

 

[HereNThere]

As mentioned by Garp, the Balance of Power is the Marines + the Shichibukai vs the totality of all 4 Yonkou Crews, though I have to imagine that the balance likely isn't exactly equal.

After much thought, I've come to the idea that the Shichibukai basically functioned as a buffer group for the marines to give them some breathing room. Basically freelancers. Sure, they are strong, but they really don't have a tangible role in the balance. I mean, let's be honest, what did they really add to the Marines' side during Marineford?

Mihawk was screwing around with Luffy then bounced when Shanks came in.
Boa was going for the friendly fire high score without much care then bounced when Luffy escaped.
Doffy, like Mihawk, just screwed around with everyone and not working.
Moriah did some work, but all that amounted to was taking down Oars Jr. He was then fired afterwards anyway.
Blackbeard literally turned on the Marines and made things worst for everyone.

Kuma is literally the only Shichibukai who assisted and that was because he was a Pacifista. Hell, the group of Pacifista the Marines eventually added were more of a net positive than the Shichibukai themselves.

Seriously, it'd have been much more believable if most of them were on the front lines again the Yonkou or had an extensive history with them. At least then, their information and experience would not only make up for their own lack of resources, but it would help make sense as to why the WG puts up with their blatant corruption. Their knowledge is just too invaluable in the long run.

 

[XXGenesis]

what truly surprised me in terms of the balance of power. Is the entire lack of or minimum encounters or battles between Yonkou crews.

Or the Marines enforcing their authority time to time on the Yonkou in a sense to never make them comfortable & gather strength….

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think the 2 Yonko together would likely defeat any forces that the Marines can muster in time for something like an attack. However to me that is merely losing a single battle not an actual war. That's why I have hated the term "War of the Best" or "Marineford War" since it wasn't an actual war, just a single battle.

With that in mind I don't think in an actual military conflict that even all 4 Yonko crews and all their forces could defeat the Marines. The Marine's have an advantage in every single aspect:

• Relatively similar number of Yonko level fighters (Marines may actually have more e.g. where are all the previous Admirals?)
• Have a larger number of YC+ level fighters (they have a lot of senior VAs that appear quite capable)
• Have far more battle ships, artillery, and weapons in general (not to mention whatever this island destroying thing Im used)
• They have much better science and tools
• Have far more foot soldiers likely in the millions globally (and they can draft more if they want including Admiral level people)
• High amount of funding so long as the WG stand

At this point to me it seems ridiculous to say the 4 Yonko combined are a genuine military threat. Real life analogy would be like arguing the Drug Cartels are actually a military threat to large government militaries. Yes they are going to cause trouble, yes they can win individual battles, but no they are not going to win a real war (using classic definition not something like nation building etc).

 

[albertwv]

I'm talking about Pre-Timeskip events. To not include Fujitora or Greenbull at the time of the Marineford War.
Also we literally have NO IDEA how strong these "Admiral candidate" Vice Admirals are. So it makes no sense to compare them to Admirals when we have yet to see them in action. At best they are Senior Vice Admiral level like Momonga, Doberman, etc. (there is potential for them to be stronger but for right now we have no idea)

The Marines called in all their available resources to fight off 1 single Yonko crew. 100,000 of their ELITE Marines, not the grunts but the commanding level and higher. yes, the Marines have millions of more sailors all over the world, but they are most likely fodder. Meanwhile, we have NW veteran pirate grunts who were fighting Elite Marines equally. That should tell you something.
Yes, not all Vice Admirals were at MF during the war, since they were probably defending other bases, but I doubt they would do much difference in numbers.
I can't think of any VA aside from Garp (excluding the "admiral candidates" due their power being unknown) strong enough to fight a Yonko Commander. In Punk Hazard and Dressrosa we saw the following: Doffy > Law > Vergo > Smoker. To put it in Power Level Structure: YC3 > YC4 > Senior VA > Junior VA..
Vice Admirals may or may not pose a problem to some Yonko Executives, highly doubt it too. I don't see Ulti losing to any VA.

The Marines and WG were scared of 1 single Yonko Crew. Imagine now all 4 of them, the Marines would stand no chance. Let's be realistic here. The reason why the Marines never took out the Yonkos were because if they took out one, their forces would be depleted and other Yonkos could take advantage and take them down. We even saw how Luffy Jimbei and Rayleigh invaded MF and made a mockery out of them in their own HQ. LOL.

The whole 2 Great Powers balance was bullshit. The WG was afraid that the "balance" would tip over after losing 1 warlord (Crocodile) but nothing really happen. Even after they lost Jimbei, BB, and Crocodile. The Warlords were a joke after Dressrosa. Look at how scared Doffy was thinking he might face Kaido's wrath.
The only warlord worth anything to the Yonkos is Mihawk.

Also remember, Marines won the war due to plenty of favorable circumstances such as: Marineford, home turf, they were well prepared, cannons, ships, walls, traps, sabotaging, hostage, and with the Warlords, etc.
The WBP came in rolling and were defeated.
Had it been reversed or somewhere in the Yonko's territory, I'm sure it would have been a way more difficult battle for the Marines.

 

[XXGenesis]

If it’s the Yonkou vs WG….I think the Yonkou can win.

The Yonkou as individuals stand above the Admirals. Whatever iteration of either you wanna go with, the OG admirals/OG Yonkou or PTS….4 vs 4 Yonkou come out with more survivors…

12 Commanders vs the VA….The 1st Mates alone are hella strong not to mention the rest of the commanders with their abilities.

As for Marine Fodder….I think the Yonkou crews can spare more notable members that would hold their own or run through the fodder…Tobi Roppo, Charolette Executives..etc

With all their resources vs each other….I think the Yonkou would win through guerilla tactics slowly weaking the WG until victory….

 

[Ricko]

Also remember, Marines won the war due to plenty of favorable circumstances such as: Marineford, home turf, they were well prepared, cannons, ships, walls, traps, sabotaging, hostage, and with the Warlords, etc.
The WBP came in rolling and were defeated.
Had it been reversed or somewhere in the Yonko's territory, I'm sure it would have been a way more difficult battle for the Marines.

I don't think home turf was a really an advantage here...
Look Akainu was always trying to keep WB of destroying everything. While WB don't have problem to sink the island.
The same when Revolutionary where fighting the Admirals, they couldn't go all out because of the location.

If Admiral were fighting in Yonkou Territory they would use all their power without restraint and turn it to Punk Hazard.
That would sweep most of the fighters.

 

[grey matter]

If it’s the Yonkou vs WG….I think the Yonkou can win.

The Yonkou as individuals stand above the Admirals. Whatever iteration of either you wanna go with, the OG admirals/OG Yonkou or PTS….4 vs 4 Yonkou come out with more survivors…

12 Commanders vs the VA….The 1st Mates alone are hella strong not to mention the rest of the commanders with their abilities.

As for Marine Fodder….I think the Yonkou crews can spare more notable members that would hold their own or run through the fodder…Tobi Roppo, Charolette Executives..etc

With all their resources vs each other….I think the Yonkou would win through guerilla tactics slowly weaking the WG until victory….

Yeah, if 4 Yonko team up, they would win against marines.
3 Yonkos teaming up itself would make it too close to call.

Just a small correction. It would be 5 top tiers on marines side, not 4 - 3 admirals, Sengoku and Garp.

If you buy into Ben Beckman portrayal/hype, then collective Yonko would have 5 top tiers too.
The other 3 RHM are likely a lot stronger than every VA as well. Yonko crews (especially WB/Shanks crew) make up for lack of top tiers with really powerful commander level fighters.


This IMO is why Shichibukai fits in perfectly.
Because the collective Shichibukai is like a high end Yonko crew (WBP/RHP) - 1 top tier, 6 varying commander tiers.

Marines + shichibukai ~ 4 Yonko collectively.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Doesn't marines have other top tiers who are strong enough to become Admirals too? Or was that not canon?

I think Marines (Inc Seraphims) + WG will win high difficulty against 4 Yonko's (assuming no restrictions such as Marineford).

 

[Nie Li]

Doesn't marines have other top tiers who are strong enough to become Admirals too? Or was that not canon?

I think Marines (Inc Seraphims) + WG will win high difficulty against 4 Yonko's (assuming no restrictions such as Marineford).

The two marines you're probably thinking of were invented by fans in an SBS but Oda made them canon.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 1, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 1, 2023 ---

Yeah, if 4 Yonko team up, they would win against marines.
3 Yonkos teaming up itself would make it too close to call.

Just a small correction. It would be 5 top tiers on marines side, not 4 - 3 admirals, Sengoku and Garp.

If you buy into Ben Beckman portrayal/hype, then collective Yonko would have 5 top tiers too.
The other 3 RHM are likely a lot stronger than every VA as well. Yonko crews (especially WB/Shanks crew) make up for lack of top tiers with really powerful commander level fighters.


This IMO is why Shichibukai fits in perfectly.
Because the collective Shichibukai is like a high end Yonko crew (WBP/RHP) - 1 top tier, 6 varying commander tiers.

Marines + shichibukai ~ 4 Yonko collectively.

I see you aren't counting the new admirals as top tiers, and after Ryukugyu's portrayal that's perfectly understandable, but they are still a great threat to commanders on top of the high end VAs. There's possibly others like Kong and perhaps the Black Horse dude too who could be real monsters or at least YC1+.

I agree overall. The marine's only appear weak because their territories are the whole damn world and their forces are very dispersed, but if they were to focus literally everything they have + the OGs shichibukai, they'd win every single war.


Now with the new Seraphims and the new Pacifistas and whatever other weapons they have it's no wonder they discarded the Shichibukai. Sure, the Shichi had Mihawk, but they weren't loyal and didn't even follow orders most of the time, so they're stronger now with the Seraphs. And we aren't even taking into account whatever weapon Im used, CP0 and probably the Gorosei, who I'm willing to bet are monsters just for the sake of shonen.

 

[grey matter]

I see you aren't counting the new admirals as top tiers, and after Ryukugyu's portrayal that's perfectly understandable, but they are still a great threat to commanders on top of the high end VAs. There's possibly others like Kong and perhaps the Black Horse dude too who could be real monsters or at least YC1+.

I agree overall. The marine's only appear weak because their territories are the whole damn world and their forces are very dispersed, but if they were to focus literally everything they have + the OGs shichibukai, they'd win every single war.


Now with the new Seraphims and the new Pacifistas and whatever other weapons they have it's no wonder they discarded the Shichibukai. Sure, the Shichi had Mihawk, but they weren't loyal and didn't even follow orders most of the time, so they're stronger now with the Seraphs. And we aren't even taking into account whatever weapon Im used, CP0 and probably the Gorosei, who I'm willing to bet are monsters just for the sake of shonen.

I am strictly speaking of pre TS era, which was where the 3 great powers stability was relevant and truly in effect.
Post Marineford was basically the slow collapse of the stability and the ensuing of chaos

Of course Greenbull and Fujitora are top tiers, though they probably aren't as strong as the OG 3, They would still give Yonkos at minimum a high diff tho, and beat all commanders with possible exception of Ben Beckman.

 

[albertwv]

I don't think home turf was a really an advantage here...
Look Akainu was always trying to keep WB of destroying everything. While WB don't have problem to sink the island.
The same when Revolutionary where fighting the Admirals, they couldn't go all out because of the location.

If Admiral were fighting in Yonkou Territory they would use all their power without restraint and turn it to Punk Hazard.
That would sweep most of the fighters.

NAH, big NAH. Home turf was definitely a HUGE advantage. How could you not see that????
In any war, both manga and real life, home turf is a big advantage.
Logically, any base that has good DEFENSE and warning of an attack coming, they can plan accordingly to their favor.
The WBP had no idea what to expect coming into Marineford, especially not betrayal or Pacifistas.

It's not a given that DEFENDING side will win but they have the advantage. Look at the World War 2 invasion of Normandy in 1944, where the Allies invaded France controlled Germany. The Germans knew there was an attack coming and fortified their positions really well. Yes, they lost that battle and the war ultimately, BUT they were able to inflict mass casualties on the Allies part. I would have not wanted to be a soldier in the beaches of Normandy.

You cannot compare the 4 Revolutionary commanders to White Beard himself.
If the Admirals were fighting in Yonko territory they would lose, whose to say the Yonko won't go all out as well? WB could have sank Marineford but he wanted his crew to get out safe and sound so he held back.

 

[grey matter]

@albertwv If the admirals were mainly CQC fighters relying on haki, then yeah. Issue is admirals are high AOE logia users who need to be careful of not nuking their own base. As people mentioned here already, admirals going all out would wash an entire island, like what happened in PH

 

[albertwv]

@albertwv If the admirals were mainly CQC fighters relying on haki, then yeah. Issue is admirals are high AOE logia users who need to be careful of not nuking their own base. As people mentioned here already, admirals going all out would wash an entire island, like what happened in PH

Not saying that the Admirals wouldn't go all out but same goes for the Yonko they could go all out too. I mentioned it before and I will mention it again:

Whitebeard himself could have sank MF if he really wanted too, but held back.
We got to see a good portion of his true power when he decided to part from the crew and let his crew escape. He managed to split the island in half AND destroyed the town and huge base of Marineford.

Kaido himself could lift a whole island AND create huge lava-fire dragon that could potentially be as hot as Akainu's magma, not exactly but I bet its close. Probably hotter than Ace/Sabo's DF.

Big Mom is a natural disaster herself with Prometheous, Hera, and Napoleon.

Shanks, have no idea how strong he is, but he managed to block Akainu's magma punch. I could see him as CQC monster.

 

[Ricko]

The matter is simple, you have a nuclear weapon, is it an offensive weapon ? Or best to use as defensive in your territory ?

WB didn't want to sink Marinford until Ace was safe... There was an hostage (that they wanted stupidly to kill ), in an all out war he could just sink the island as he don't care about it.