Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
He could have tamed the leopard, though. Jokes aside I'm sure he won't job like Big Meme and use aCoC when necessary. I wonder if she perhaps just couldn't even control her aCoC and only used it on P1 because she was feeling wrathful. We know from Rooftop Zoro that one can use aCoC unknowingly under the right circumstances, and Big Meme never displayed any kind of masterful haki control.
I'll stay out of Mihawk discussions for now because his stonks have recently skyrocketed to new heights for me.
They are really sleeping on the Admirals to not include them in this list over Kid, Law, Sabo at this point with the feats we've seen. Also from recent characters I'd personally put Yamato above Kidd & Law. We've seen better haki including aCoC and from the appearance of the DF transformation is also an awakened mythical zoan that has been mastered since Yamato doesn't get tired from it.
Interesting takes on both sides of King vs Katakuri, It is hard to come to a conclusion. I side with King but then somebody convinces me that Kata could win.
I blame Oda, obviously...
We saw more of Kata due to him fighting Luffy in the climax battle, while King vs Zolo was rushed and filled with inconsistencies. Also, King didn't really have any impressive attacks that could pose a threat or so.
Kata has strong CoA but apparently it seems that you need ACoC to harm King, which Kata doesn't have. So Kata would have to wait for King to go on speed mode for Kata to be able to hurt him,,, or so we think.
What is the inconsistency here? I presume you are talking about Marco damaging King, which yeah I can see. I headcanon it as Marco being able to screw over King's flames and bypass the defence mode, but most likely it's Oda not having thought of King's abilities back then.
King took Zoro to like 20% by the end of the fight, so he isn't really lacking in power. Chip damage over time is enough when you can tank everything.
Plus, considering how much magma is wanked in the series, King's magma-esque flames are quite potent. He could also cause
then there is the unpopular logic of: Kaido > ACoC Gear 4 Luffy > ACoC/ King Of Hell Zolo > King > ACoA Gear 4 Luffy > Rooftop CoA Zolo > Katakuri >/= Pre Udon/WCI Gear 4 Luffy
Since we saw how well Rooftop CoA Zolo was able to harm Kaido and we saw how Kaido was able to stomp Pre Udon/WCI Gear 4 Luffy, some may assume that Rooftop CoA Zolo can defeat Pre Udon Gear 4 Luffy. Therefore Rooftop CoA Zolo >/= Katakuri and we know Zolo got stronger once he unlocked ACoC/KoH and was able to defeat King but before that Zolo couldn't damage King.
Ultimately leading to: ACoC/KoH Zolo > King > Rooftop CoA Zolo >/= Katakuri.
it is so confusing. The whole rooftop was out of control in terms of power levels.
What bugged me in regards to Zolo's power creep is that he literally went from Basic CoA to Advanced CoC. He skipped ACoA and learning basic CoC, yet we saw what Luffy went through in reaching that level.
What is wrong with this logic really?
I am genuinely trying to understand here.
There would be an issue with this logic only if you assume King and Katakuri are same level to begin with.
Let's even ignore the feats here and look at narrative. My post earlier shows the narrative of rooftop Zoro vs pre Udon Luffy. It's night and day.
Also, Zoro didn't "skip" advanced armament haki.
He literally had it in rooftop, which was why he could damage Kaido. He also used it to form a barrier haki to block hakai. We can presume he learned it offscreen in the training period, thanks to Enma.
And it seems Egghead is going the same direction with power levels being thrown out the window. Why don't Zolo or Luffy use their ACoC to defeat the Seraphim. Luffy used Gear 5 on Lucci for whatever reason earlier but now he's holding out? Like okay?
Most likely, it's cause LOda wants to drag on this arc and buy time for Kizaru, Saturn, Blackbeard pirates etc to arrive
Luffy holding out G5 makes sense tho.
It is very taxing on him, as we have seen in the manga. G4 is much more reliable. But yes, there is no excuse to not using advanced conqueror's haki
Cannonically it is 50/50. A true stalemate with their abilities. They never fight, they are only in 1 arc with varying screen time, it’s just not enough portryal to say who wins.
I wanna laugh at the face of all those people thinking Kid was going to give Shanks a difficult fight. LOL.
Shanks >>>>>>> Kid. Shanks basically Kaido'd Kid.
Kid is at best a YC1. He barely did any damage on BM himself. He took maybe 1 or 2 punches from her with NO HAKI, while Law was tanking CoA punches from her. He manage to break one arm, wow, that was his best feat, which could be argued that it was with the help of Law's K-Room Shock Wille attack.
Kid's Damned Punk laser only tickled BM and served too push her down with gravity doing the rest. Law was the one putting up the fight with only Kid supporting him.
Even hard sell saying Kid > Zolo or Yamato or even Marcos. Kid has no feats over them.
I aint no Kid hater, Oda ruined Kid like her ruined BM. I was cheering for Kid and was hoping we get to see a bigger pirate rivalry between him and Luffy, but Oda did Kid no justice during Onigashima. He had potential in Udon, but in Onigashima and the rooftop, Kid barely did anything significant.
Kid had CoC, but instead of focusing on that Oda totally forgot it and NEVER once showed Kid using it.
Also I am firm believer that BM vs Law and Kid was a total fluke and only served the plot to move forward. Law due to his popularity was showcased more in Wano than Kid.
Even Oda admitted that he wasn't expecting Law to be this popular and was going to drop him after Dressrosa and wanted to highlight Kid more than Law, but things switched up.
Back to Shanks. Finally amazing feat how he effortlessly and SINGLE-HANDedly defeated Kid AND Killer who were at full health. Shanks using FS so splendidly and changing the future.
Unfortunately people will use this a way to hype up Mihawk and somehow Blackbeard, instead of giving the sole W to Shanks.
Come on, this wasn't something like base Kaido one shotting pre Udon Luffy and treating him like a fly.
Look at what Kid managed in contrast, during Wano.
Got praise from Kaido. Was the one who managed to fight BM in a 1v1 in combat for most of the Kid/Law vs BM fight
Shanks saw Kid as a threat and was angry at his future actions, went with the intent to end Kid.
Like you said, this is a W for Shanks.
Shanks simply hits on a different level from Kaido and BM.
Something people need to understand about the Shanks one shot is:
- Shanks is the Yonko with the strongest haki post TS. He is basically Roger with one arm. Portrayal and parallels are pretty clear.
- Shanks is a swordsman, and we know swordsman attack power is unusually high for their tier
So, we have the Yonko with the highest haki, who is also a swordsman who are known to have high attack power for their tier.
When you see it in this light, you can start seeing why the Kid one shot makes sense, even after the BM fight.
And yeah, after this, Kid vs Zoro/Yamato shouldn't be there lol. Marco is kinda debatable, depends on if Kid can outlast. Marco obviously wouldn't get one shot cause nobody in the verse is capable of one shotting him
Now this right here is reaching, what??????
When was this shown? Zoro blocked the attack for a moment sure but to say he created a barrier to do it is a whole level of headcanon.
Zoro having acoa is debatable, he even questioned Luffy about acoa when he used it against kaido the first time, that doesn't strike me as someone who has it.
If that's what you think may have happened then sure but let's not paint it as facts shown in the manga.
Now this right here is reaching, what??????
When was this shown? Zoro blocked the attack for a moment sure but to say he created a barrier to do it is a whole level of headcanon.
Zoro having acoa is debatable, he even questioned Luffy about acoa when he used it against kaido the first time, that doesn't strike me as someone who has it.
If that's what you think may have happened then sure but let's not paint it as facts shown in the manga.
How else can you block something that massive? Mind you, it isn't some solid attack, but a giant shockwave.
Remember the admirals blocking WB's earthquake wave. Can they simply use armament/hardening only on their arm and expect it to be blocked all together? No. To block high AOE non-solid attacks, you need a barrier.
There are levels to even advanced armament haki. Level 1: haki flow/barrier. Level 2: internal destruction. Zoro was probably shocked at the internal destruction aspect of it.
What is however not debatable is that you cannot hurt Kaido with physical attacks, unless you have advanced armament/conqueror's haki. That was the entire point of Luffy's training in Udon. Rooftop Zoro clearly didn't have advanced conqueror's, otherwise Kaido would've mentioned it. So it should've been advanced armament haki.
You maybe right. The barrier could be just me trying to make sense of it, maybe that wasn't the intention from Oda. But Zoro having advanced armament in rooftop isn't really debatable. There is no other explanation to Zoro's attacks hurting Kaido, BM asking Kaido to dodge, etc.
Probably Kuma. Seems like he has a lot more going for him and his general presence has been treated as if he is one of the stronger characters.
What are people's thoughts about Oda's concept of invisibility? Oda seems to consider it a troublesome ability in the end game and making it "haki proof" at the moment.
Probably Kuma. Seems like he has a lot more going for him and his general presence has been treated as if he is one of the stronger characters.
What are people's thoughts about Oda's concept of invisibility? Oda seems to consider it a troublesome ability in the end game and making it "haki proof" at the moment.
He does well in not acknowledging a headcanon that contradicts the manga.
It was either aCoA or aCoC.
Explanation assuming it was aCoC:
- At the start of the battle he held back too much and couldn't even injure Kaido's neck with a head-on Onigiri (and Killer attacking the same spot at the same time).
- Then he started to let Enma drag out some more of his haki, which made him release a aCoC flying slash that Kaido dodged and left Zoro panting half-exhausted.
- His next attack was the tatsumaki, for which he focused and aCoC only came out through Enma. Enma was once again taking out of him more than he intended (and more than he knew he had, since he didn't even know he could use CoC). It was still a chaotic AoE attack that resulted in a small slash.
- It's only in the end, when he put literally every bit of haki he could muster, that he made another aCoC attack and hit Kaido head-on with it this time, resulting in making him a new, bigger scar on his chest.
Then during the King fight Enma brought aCoC out of him again and this time he learnt to wield it and summon it willingly throughout the last part of the fight.
That's all Enma does. The manga explained it twice, possibly thrice, and is consistent throughout every single appearance.
If it was aCoA instead of aCoC, the concept would be similar: Enma pulls CoA out of his body and focuses it on the blade: the literal innerworking explanation of projection haki (aCoA). It's likely every Scabbard and any swordsman of that tier, being used to gathering CoA on their swords, are using aCoA. Hyogoro himself explains it as a common Wano thing to do for samurai.
What it can be argued their they miss is the internal destruction part, since the innerworkings of that one were never explained.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Yes, "the sword is the source of that haki", since it was the only part of Zoro leaking his aCoC (by forcefully taking it out of his body).
Do we accept that explanation that the manga gave us multiple times? Or do we say that Oden's haki is alive within Enma and taking credit for anything Zoro does with Enma, which contradicts everything explicitly said about the sword?
The good answer is the one that doesn't conflict with what they outright tell us.
I've posted the panels and don't want to fall down this rabbit hole again so I'll just leave it at that.
I wonder if Zoro learns internal destruction as his last power up because in all honestly he is 1 power away from fighting Mihawk and for the life of me idk what else he could possibly learn.
Zoro seems severely lacking in CoO in the sense that he is up against likely that man with the world's greatest CoO ability. Mihawk was almost called the "Clarvoyant" or maybe Shanks can teach Zoro how to cancel out Mihawk's haki which is believable
Do we accept that explanation that the manga gave us multiple times? Or do we say that Oden's haki is alive within Enma and taking credit for anything Zoro does with Enma, which contradicts everything explicitly said about the sword?
This is the problem. You assume that acknowledging Oden's haki being within Enma takes anything away from Zoro when it really doesn't. It doesn't take away the painstaking journey Zoro took to master Enma.
Both these things can be true. Oden's haki that Big Mom and Kaodo sense could be within Enma AND everything you said about Enma can be true.
No one is taking Luffy's credit for beating Kaido because he activated God mode and no one is taking away Sanji's win for activating germa genes randomly.
Enma ACTIVATED in the King fight after hearing Hiyori play the Shimasin of Odens song. If all Enma did was pull haki, That wouldn't have happened.
Still going on about Enma haki.
"Enma's haki" is Zoro's haki. It isn't a device that generates haki on it's own, it gets the haki from Zoro.
Enma's power was literally explained in the chapter Zoro got it. It sucks out large amounts of haki from the user, that's really it. This has been consistent thoughout the arc, the sword kept taking more haki than Zoro intended, because Enma by it's personality/nature is a greedy sword that is hungry for the haki that prime Oden supplied it (1033).
It was a training tool for Zoro to improve his haki and eventually get advanced conqueror's haki
Kaido senses "Oden" because Enma, like every other cursed/high-grade sword, has a spirit/personality that is unique to itself (explained in 1033). He experienced the same sword before when Oden scarred him, and automatically associates Enma's presence with Oden's
He does well in not acknowledging a headcanon that contradicts the manga.
It was either aCoA or aCoC.
Explanation assuming it was aCoC:
- At the start of the battle he held back too much and couldn't even injure Kaido's neck with a head-on Onigiri (and Killer attacking the same spot at the same time).
- Then he started to let Enma drag out some more of his haki, which made him release a aCoC flying slash that Kaido dodged and left Zoro panting half-exhausted.
- His next attack was the tatsumaki, for which he focused and aCoC only came out through Enma. Enma was once again taking out of him more than he intended (and more than he knew he had, since he didn't even know he could use CoC). It was still a chaotic AoE attack that resulted in a small slash.
- It's only in the end, when he put literally every bit of haki he could muster, that he made another aCoC attack and hit Kaido head-on with it this time, resulting in making him a new, bigger scar on his chest.
Then during the King fight Enma brought aCoC out of him again and this time he learnt to wield it and summon it willingly throughout the last part of the fight.
That's all Enma does. The manga explained it twice, possibly thrice, and is consistent throughout every single appearance.
If it was aCoA instead of aCoC, the concept would be similar: Enma pulls CoA out of his body and focuses it on the blade: the literal innerworking explanation of projection haki (aCoA). It's likely every Scabbard and any swordsman of that tier, being used to gathering CoA on their swords, are using aCoA. Hyogoro himself explains it as a common Wano thing to do for samurai.
What it can be argued their they miss is the internal destruction part, since the innerworkings of that one were never explained.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Yes, "the sword is the source of that haki", since it was the only part of Zoro leaking his aCoC (by forcefully taking it out of his body).
Do we accept that explanation that the manga gave us multiple times? Or do we say that Oden's haki is alive within Enma and taking credit for anything Zoro does with Enma, which contradicts everything explicitly said about the sword?
The good answer is the one that doesn't conflict with what they outright tell us.
Fucking Wano ended and dudes still going on about Oden's haki, Enma's haki etc.
Anything to downplay Zoro, this isn't anything new.
Let's keep the same energy and discredit Luffy to say it was Joyboy's haki and power that defeated Kaido lmao. Afterall, Zunesha sensed "Joyboy returning". The normal logic would simply be the Nika DF awakening has a common presence that Zunesha associates with Joyboy, but let's use their logic here lmao.
As for whether it was advanced armament or conqueror's, it should be advanced armament IMO.
Because the one instance where Zoro accidentally used advanced conqueror's haki with Asura, Kaido outright namedropped conqueror's haki and asked if Zoro had it. If prior attacks were advanced conqueror's haki, Kaido would've mentioned it
This is the problem. You assume that acknowledging Oden's haki being within Enma takes anything away from Zoro when it really doesn't. It doesn't take away the painstaking journey Zoro took to master Enma.
Both these things can be true. Oden's haki that Big Mom and Kaodo sense could be within Enma AND everything you said about Enma can be true.
No one is taking Luffy's credit for beating Kaido because he activated God mode and no one is taking away Sanji's win for activating germa genes randomly.
Enma ACTIVATED in the King fight after hearing Hiyori play the Shimasin. If all Enma did was pull haki, That wouldn't have happened.
That would be true if you claimed Enma had some of Oden's will in the sense of "waking up to protect what Oden would have wanted to protect", but you claimed "it having Oden's haki is why it could cut Kaido" and "why he could "block" hakai" (since that was what was being discussed when you commented on it), and that contradicts what the manga has told us and certainly takes away every merit from Zoro.
Enma activated in the King fight after hearing Hiyori play the Shimasin? Or was that a symbolic/poetic narrative coincidence? Enma certainly didn't need to hear Hiyori to activate on the rooftop or the first time Zoro held it, so it happening one of the three times makes a norm? Will you claim Oden every time Zoro uses aCoC?
All it has been shown doing is absorbing Zoro's haki forcefully, and feeling similar to when Oden wielded it. The later part is easily explainable as being the same literal sword Oden held being weilded now by a different CoC user with similar output capabilities.
Enma activated in the King fight after hearing Hiyori play the Shimasin? Or was that a symbolic/poetic narrative coincidence? Enma certainly didn't need to hear Hiyori to activate on the rooftop or the first time Zoro held it, so it happening one of the three times makes a norm? Will you claim Oden every time Zoro uses aCoC?
All it has been shown doing is absorbing Zoro's haki forcefully, and feeling similar to when Oden wielded it. The later part is easily explainable as being the same literal sword Oden held being weilded now by a different CoC user with similar output capabilities.
Explain it activating upon hearing Oden's favorite song played by Hoyori if all it does is pull haki. Because Zoro was dead to right before that moment
