One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kkck]

Ah my bad, I misread. Yes in the King v Katakuri it is a close toss up and does come down to endurance, which like you mentioned King has the advantage. At that point it comes down to who is more determined to win and can also fight a bit more strategically. Both of them seem to be level headed fighters so would be interesting to watch.

Katakuri probably has the more exploitable disposition between the two. Katakuri during his fight had an honorable thing going on and wanted a fair fight with luffy. Like when he took out his sister follower her snipping luffy. King in that situation would have bitten luffy's head off and never thought about him again. Both are ultimately pretty versatile fighters as well. I still give king an edge if only because zoro had to figure out how to fight at the yonko level to beat him (though it was pretty decisive at that point). Luffy just had to bridge the gap between their observation haki...

 

[HereNThere]

Don't engage. Just report. Those who don't argue in good faith don't deserve your time or attention.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Katakuri probably has the more exploitable disposition between the two. Katakuri during his fight had an honorable thing going on and wanted a fair fight with luffy. Like when he took out his sister follower her snipping luffy. King in that situation would have bitten luffy's head off and never thought about him again. Both are ultimately pretty versatile fighters as well. I still give king an edge if only because zoro had to figure out how to fight at the yonko level to beat him (though it was pretty decisive at that point). Luffy just had to bridge the gap between their observation haki...

Good point on fighting disposition. King is definitely more cut throat and willing to do anything. I do agree King's invulnerability in defense mode would be tough to overcome but think Kata's specialty of counter attacking using aCoO is King's weakness. This would make it tough for King to attack at full speed since his attack mode can be countered resulting in actual damage. Without attack mode speed I have hard time thinking King can land a hit on Kata due to aCoO but conversely anything Kata lands would also due no damage. This in a nutshell is why I think it has to come down to endurance/stamina.

 

[BlackTiger]

King in that situation would have bitten luffy's head off

Good luck doing that to Luffy. Can he even hit Luffy who has FS when he can't even hit Zoro?

Superior version of King in Egghead cannot even beat non advanced haki Boundman the same form that lost to Cracker.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Good point on fighting disposition. King is definitely more cut throat and willing to do anything. I do agree King's invulnerability in defense mode would be tough to overcome but think Kata's specialty of counter attacking using aCoO is King's weakness. This would make it tough for King to attack at full speed since his attack mode can be countered resulting in actual damage. Without attack mode speed I have hard time thinking King can land a hit on Kata due to aCoO but conversely anything Kata lands would also due no damage. This in a nutshell is why I think it has to come down to endurance/stamina.

I agree, I mean even when you look at just stats in a black or white aspect you'd have a hard time arguing King>Kat objectively

CoO: Kata>King - due to future sight
CoA: Kata>King - due to his extra hardened CoA machine
CoC: Kata>King - King doesn't have it
Devil Fruit: Kata>King - Awakening
Speed: Kata>King - Kata able to keep up with SM
Stamina: Kata>King - no explanation, needed
Defense: Kata<King - King has higher defense but it's equivalent to Kata not needing a high defense due to evasion (neither are getting hurt)

King simply doesn't have anything that put him above Kata besides lethality

 

[kkck]

I agree, I mean even when you look at just stats in a black or white aspect you'd have a hard time arguing King>Kat objectively

CoO: Kata>King - due to future sight
CoA: Kata>King - due to his extra hardened CoA machine
CoC: Kata>King - King doesn't have it
Devil Fruit: Kata>King - Awakening
Speed: Kata>King - Kata able to keep up with SM
Stamina: Kata>King - no explanation, needed
Defense: Kata<King - King has higher defense but it's equivalent to Kata not needing a high defense due to evasion (neither are getting hurt)

King simply doesn't have anything that put him above Kata besides lethality

Why would kata have more stamina than king? King has the advantages of a lunarian and an ancient zoan. Durability is an area where hardly any character in the series comes close to king.

On the armor haki bit, it is worth noting that king's wings could take on zoro's swords during their fight. This isn't an area where katakuri has an advantage IMO.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Why would kata have more stamina than king? King has the advantages of a lunarian and an ancient zoan. Durability is an area where hardly any character in the series comes close to king.

On the armor haki bit, it is worth noting that king's wings could take on zoro's swords during their fight. This isn't an area where katakuri has an advantage IMO.

Kata was constantly fighting on and off for hours at a time while Luffy systematically forced him to drain his haki. King couldn't last 5 minutes vs Zoro.

As for your haki armor comment we'll just have to remain in disagreement because I think Kata has higher attack power than Zoro Pre King of Hell Mode, but I can see where you are coming from

 

[kkck]

Kata was constantly fighting on and off for hours at a time while Luffy systematically forced him to drain his haki. King couldn't last 5 minutes vs Zoro.

As for your haki armor comment we'll just have to remain in disagreement because I think Kata has higher attack power than Zoro Pre King of Hell Mode, but I can see where you are coming from

King fought for hours during onigashima. First against marco and then against zoro which also lasted a fair bit. Katakuri's and luffy's fight only lasted long to begin with because honor and stuff prevented katakuri from winning.

Zoro already had a significant boost to his attack power and haki from merely becoming ok at using enma. Oda made a big deal out of it when zoro accidentally cut a cliff without trying and that was before training. Let alone that the scabbards advised against using the sword.

 

[Pirate Queen]

King fought for hours during onigashima. First against marco and then against zoro which also lasted a fair bit. Katakuri's and luffy's fight only lasted long to begin with because honor and stuff prevented katakuri from winning.

Zoro already had a significant boost to his attack power and haki from merely becoming ok at using enma. Oda made a big deal out of it when zoro accidentally cut a cliff without trying and that was before training. Let alone that the scabbards advised against using the sword.

I disagree with that assessment. of the two different scenarios. I think Kata showed far greater stamina than King.

and even if you want to say King has better stamina and defense. Kata has litteral everything else. Neither King's stamina or defense is high enough to give him a decisive win over Katakuri, in my opinion

 

[kkck]

I disagree with that assessment. of the two different scenarios. I think Kata showed far greater stamina than King.

and even if you want to say King has better stamina and defense. Kata has litteral everything else. Neither King's stamina or defense is high enough to give him a decisive win over Katakuri, in my opinion

At the moment rather king winning, I am making a case that the fight is actually pretty damn close. It's not a situation where king simply can't hit katakuri therefore katakuri wins.

Hmmm, it's generally a pretty big claim that someone has greater durability/endurance than an ancient zoan. Ancient zoans have shown at every turn ridiculous durability and when that fails they still recover insanely quickly.

On the issue of armor of armor haki... As far as I can tell katakuri shows two instances of it being quite strong. first when using square mochi though that seems more like a devil fruit technique to increase his natural hardness/strength. Katakuri's armor haki is stronger than luffy's at that point but luffy can make up for the difference with gear 4. Of course, to katakuri's credit he can injure luffy while in gear 4 with his punches while in contrast doflamingo's physical attacks straight up bounced off luffy. The other instance is the flame like pattern at the end though the manga has never explained the significance of this. It's probably some manner of advanced armor haki or maybe just overconsumption of haki. King on the other hand wasn't as showy but does have low-key significant armor haki feats. As I said, the guy could trade blows with zoro's swords and zoro's upgrade from merely learning to wield enma is without a doubt significant. Wano also framed ranged slashes some manner of advanced haki application (haki emission specifically though there's funky lore there) and king showed he was quite good at this as well, his slashes from his wings which were specifically framed as quite deadly. IIRC katakuri didn't do anything emission like. Mogura hit quite hard but katakuri barely used it.

Katakuri does have conqueror haki but.. does it even make a difference? The series has never elaborated on what advantage a conqueror haki user would have in an scenario like this. Without cladding (or foresight killing?) conqueror haki has no obvious benefit against anyone in your tier.

Katakuri has awakening but king has a dual set of abilities basically. His lunarian physiology AND his devil fruit. And his two sets of abilities he combines and wields pretty seamlessly and effectively.

 

[BlackTiger]

but agenda prevalent here is to push him being some fodder to Luffy.

How will KOH Zoro beat WCI Snakeman without FS and Snakeman speed?

 

[Pirate Queen]

At the moment rather king winning, I am making a case that the fight is actually pretty damn close. It's not a situation where king simply can't hit katakuri therefore katakuri wins.

Hmmm, it's generally a pretty big claim that someone has greater durability/endurance than an ancient zoan. Ancient zoans have shown at every turn ridiculous durability and when that fails they still recover insanely quickly.

On the issue of armor of armor haki... As far as I can tell katakuri shows two instances of it being quite strong. first when using square mochi though that seems more like a devil fruit technique to increase his natural hardness/strength. Katakuri's armor haki is stronger than luffy's at that point but luffy can make up for the difference with gear 4. Of course, to katakuri's credit he can injure luffy while in gear 4 with his punches while in contrast doflamingo's physical attacks straight up bounced off luffy. The other instance is the flame like pattern at the end though the manga has never explained the significance of this. It's probably some manner of advanced armor haki or maybe just overconsumption of haki. King on the other hand wasn't as showy but does have low-key significant armor haki feats. As I said, the guy could trade blows with zoro's swords and zoro's upgrade from merely learning to wield enma is without a doubt significant. Wano also framed ranged slashes some manner of advanced haki application (haki emission specifically though there's funky lore there) and king showed he was quite good at this as well, his slashes from his wings which were specifically framed as quite deadly. IIRC katakuri didn't do anything emission like. Mogura hit quite hard but katakuri barely used it.

Katakuri does have conqueror haki but.. does it even make a difference? The series has never elaborated on what advantage a conqueror haki user would have in an scenario like this. Without cladding (or foresight killing?) conqueror haki has no obvious benefit against anyone in your tier.

Katakuri has awakening but king has a dual set of abilities basically. His lunarian physiology AND his devil fruit. And his two sets of abilities he combines and wields pretty seamlessly and effectively.

I'm taking into account not getting damaged so while I think King is far more durable than Katakuri, I do think Katakuri avoiding the damage outright with Future sight is akin to not getting hurt the same way King's wouldn't get hurt after getting attack.

to simply, I think if to win by getting 100% damage on their opponent, both would have an equally hard time getting the other to 100%. For Kat. it would be evasion. For King it would be tanking.

I think Katakuri can evade longer than King could tank

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I agree, I mean even when you look at just stats in a black or white aspect you'd have a hard time arguing King>Kat objectively

CoO: Kata>King - due to future sight
CoA: Kata>King - due to his extra hardened CoA machine
CoC: Kata>King - King doesn't have it
Devil Fruit: Kata>King - Awakening
Speed: Kata>King - Kata able to keep up with SM
Stamina: Kata>King - no explanation, needed
Defense: Kata<King - King has higher defense but it's equivalent to Kata not needing a high defense due to evasion (neither are getting hurt)

King simply doesn't have anything that put him above Kata besides lethality

If I were looking at same stats I think I'd be close to yours but with some differences:

• CoO is Kata for sure, enough said
• CoA is a toss up. Likely Kata (King may not need it with Lunarian offense) but not as clear cut for me since Cracker got the same compliment which might be just from Luffy not being used to good CoA users in general. King could very well be using the same level of CoA.
• CoC is Kata for sure. King doesn't have it. This one thing alone shows Kata has a much higher ceiling than King since he can learn aCoC.
• DF: Kata has much better mastery especially with him being awakened. I also think Mochi fruit is more versatile than the Pterodactyl fruit.
• Speed is a toss up for me. King in his attack mode is probably faster to me in straight up speed. But see your point about keeping up with Snakeman attacks though I think aCoO plays a huge part to it. Without a CoO I don't think he'd be able to dodge those attacks.
• Stamina is a toss up. Both of them fought for similar amount of time, Luffy v Kata was 10-12 hrs and Onigashima which is constant fighting was all night long which is also similar ball park. King also being a Zoan helps a lot with stamina which makes this a tough call for me.
• Defense on face value I think King has better one due to Lunarian ability. However, this is nuanced to me since King can tank hits but Kata using aCoO+DF can avoid hits so in his own way his defense is also very high. The question here becomes who can last longer using there respective defense style and with King we never saw him say he was too tired to use his defense mode but Kata definitely can get too tired to use aCoO well, which is why I give the edge to King here.

Overall I give Kata the edge in stats. In the 7 categories we used, Kata outright wins in 3, King has a slight win in 1, and the other 3 are a toss up to me.

 

[Pirate Queen]

If I were looking at same stats I think I'd be close to yours but with some differences:

• CoO is Kata for sure, enough said
• CoA is a toss up. Likely Kata (King may not need it with Lunarian offense) but not as clear cut for me since Cracker got the same compliment which might be just from Luffy not being used to good CoA users in general. King could very well be using the same level of CoA.
• CoC is Kata for sure. King doesn't have it. This one thing alone shows Kata has a much higher ceiling than King since he can learn aCoC.
• DF: Kata has much better mastery especially with him being awakened. I also think Mochi fruit is more versatile than the Pterodactyl fruit.
• Speed is a toss up for me. King in his attack mode is probably faster to me in straight up speed. But see your point about keeping up with Snakeman attacks though I think aCoO plays a huge part to it. Without a CoO I don't think he'd be able to dodge those attacks.
• Stamina is a toss up. Both of them fought for similar amount of time, Luffy v Kata was 10-12 hrs and Onigashima which is constant fighting was all night long which is also similar ball park. King also being a Zoan helps a lot with stamina which makes this a tough call for me.
• Defense on face value I think King has better one due to Lunarian ability. However, this is nuanced to me since King can tank hits but Kata using aCoO+DF can avoid hits so in his own way his defense is also very high. The question here becomes who can last longer using there respective defense style and with King we never saw him say he was too tired to use his defense mode but Kata definitely can get too tired to use aCoO well, which is why I give the edge to King here.

Overall I give Kata the edge in stats. In the 7 categories we used, Kata outright wins in 3, King has a slight win in 1, and the other 3 are a toss up to me.

that actually a really good assessment. especially your explanation of defense

 

[DeadlyBeast]

that actually a really good assessment. especially your explanation of defense

Thanks. I really do think a fight between these two would be interesting to see since it would be super close. However, the way the plot is moving I think they will both be Luffy's allies against the WG so maybe we will get to see them do a tag team against a common enemy instead.

 

[kkck]

If I were looking at same stats I think I'd be close to yours but with some differences:

• CoO is Kata for sure, enough said
• CoA is a toss up. Likely Kata (King may not need it with Lunarian offense) but not as clear cut for me since Cracker got the same compliment which might be just from Luffy not being used to good CoA users in general. King could very well be using the same level of CoA.
• CoC is Kata for sure. King doesn't have it. This one thing alone shows Kata has a much higher ceiling than King since he can learn aCoC.
• DF: Kata has much better mastery especially with him being awakened. I also think Mochi fruit is more versatile than the Pterodactyl fruit.
• Speed is a toss up for me. King in his attack mode is probably faster to me in straight up speed. But see your point about keeping up with Snakeman attacks though I think aCoO plays a huge part to it. Without a CoO I don't think he'd be able to dodge those attacks.
• Stamina is a toss up. Both of them fought for similar amount of time, Luffy v Kata was 10-12 hrs and Onigashima which is constant fighting was all night long which is also similar ball park. King also being a Zoan helps a lot with stamina which makes this a tough call for me.
• Defense on face value I think King has better one due to Lunarian ability. However, this is nuanced to me since King can tank hits but Kata using aCoO+DF can avoid hits so in his own way his defense is also very high. The question here becomes who can last longer using there respective defense style and with King we never saw him say he was too tired to use his defense mode but Kata definitely can get too tired to use aCoO well, which is why I give the edge to King here.

Overall I give Kata the edge in stats. In the 7 categories we used, Kata outright wins in 3, King has a slight win in 1, and the other 3 are a toss up to me.

It's worth noting that when katakuri lost his cool and his observation haki failed him he took multiple hits from boundman luffy. Of course, once katakuri regained his composure he was able to deal with G4 at that point without much trouble. What followed is a bit wonky because luffy had ample room to test and develop his observation haki to the point that even without G4 he was managing to dodge some attacks and even land some hits, which is a clearly dramatic improvement from before. As in, with boundman which is dramatically faster than his base form he was eating hits from katakuri early in the fight while in turn even with his accumulated damage he managed to evade attacks later in his base form. At the end of the fight luffy's own observation haki was quite close to kata's.

Stamina wise it's worth noting that zoro got that mink medicine before his fight. Whereas king went straight from fighting marco alongside queen to his confrontation with zoro. And by the looks of it marco did manage to land some hits (even even through king's defense mode apparently, to marco's credit).

Another thing worth noting is that towards the end of the fight with zoro king was dodging attacks even while in defense mode. Can katakuri do damage through king's defense mode? There's no real limit to is as far as we know.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

It's worth noting that when katakuri lost his cool and his observation haki failed him he took multiple hits from boundman luffy. Of course, once katakuri regained his composure he was able to deal with G4 at that point without much trouble. What followed is a bit wonky because luffy had ample room to test and develop his observation haki to the point that even without G4 he was managing to dodge some attacks and even land some hits, which is a clearly dramatic improvement from before. As in, with boundman which is dramatically faster than his base form he was eating hits from katakuri early in the fight while in turn even with his accumulated damage he managed to evade attacks later in his base form. At the end of the fight luffy's own observation haki was quite close to kata's.

Stamina wise it's worth noting that zoro got that mink medicine before his fight. Whereas king went straight from fighting marco alongside queen to his confrontation with zoro. And by the looks of it marco did manage to land some hits (even even through king's defense mode apparently, to marco's credit).

Another thing worth noting is that towards the end of the fight with zoro king was dodging attacks even while in defense mode. Can katakuri do damage through king's defense mode? There's no real limit to is as far as we know.

Yes for Kata's defense to work he needs aCoO which means he has a few weaknesses to his defense in comparison to King's defense. For one Katakuri needs to have haki so fatigue from aCoO overuse can allow him to get hit and he also needs to keep his mental/emotional composure which can also be an issue though with King I don't know if that would happen. Outside of that the opponent would need to have aCoO themselves to counter Kata's defense or have that much better speed. Luffy's growth in that fight is not likely something King could easily duplicate so I don't think that would work against Kata. Additionally, Kata's defense with aCoO does not cost him his offense whereas King can't attack at full strength and keep his defense up either. If King tries to attack Kata would definitely use aCoO to counter and do damage.

Stamina wise I do think they should be roughly the same. The only fights we saw King and Kata in lasted essentially 10-12 hours. Zoro did have the advantage of the super drug but he also had a broken body and a time limit on the drug so I think everything evened out. Luffy in the Kata fight had unfair advantage of getting to use Brulee to escape and rest to get haki back and he also happened to eat due to Kata having a food based DF. Both of those are things King would not be able to exploit.

I think Oda has not been consistent with defense mode. With the Seraphim it seemed pretty much absolute. But could also be that in the end of the fight King was using attack mode to finish Zoro off so he had to dodge or alternatively aCoC can bypass the defense mode (we just have to believe both Luffy & Zoro conveniently forgot against the Seraphim).

My point in the Kata v King fight is that King can't land a hit on Kata easily without either wearing him out (stamina which I think both are about the same in with King having slight advantage due to zoan) or making him lose his cool. This would leave King with only one option which is use attack mode speed to try to land a hit on Kata since high enough speed can overcome the aCoO. However, that would leave King vulnerable to counter attacks which Kata specializes in. So if King is not willing to risk it then he stays in defense mode which Kata can't bypass. This would leave them both at an impasse where neither can hurt the other and just have to see who tires faster. I just don't see King fighting in this way which is why I give Kata the overall edge in the fight even though it would be close.

Other things to consider is Kata being an awakened user has alternative win methods to win too. He could in theory bury King under a ton of mochi and crush him, suffocate him, or at the very least immobilize him. I don't think King has the same options against Kata since nothing he can do is not in theory dodgeable.

 

[john ellis]

Tbh the double standards of law and Kidd are a little extreme, someone pointed out we All Kidd shit for losing his arm to Ben beckman , where as law lost his arm to doffy, and beckman shits on doffy. Also Kidd was imprisoned on wano by kaido and law was imprisoned on wano by hawkins

 

[HereNThere]

Tbh the double standards of law and Kidd are a little extreme, someone pointed out we All Kidd shit for losing his arm to Ben beckman , where as law lost his arm to doffy, and beckman shits on doffy. Also Kidd was imprisoned on wano by kaido and law was imprisoned on wano by hawkins

I like Kidd, but it's just how it is. It's easier to clown on him because of the type of character he is and his lack of real screentime. He talks big, but we've really never seen him back up any of it. We've spent more time with Law, so people are more endeared to him. Also, his abilities have a cooler presentation.

The Beckman situation isn't even that bad. For most other characters, that would be an impressive feat. He lost an arm, but he was a fresh faced pirate from Paradise and somehow made it deep enough into Shank's territory to "fight" with the 2nd in Command within 2 years. That's pretty crazy. What most people see, however, is that Kidd was taken down by an underling and didn't even meet Shanks directly.

 

[Pirate Queen]

The fandom had to suffer Kidd because his fan base consistently pushed the narrative that Kid=Luffy for YEARS so I think the overall downplay is a result of that in part. No one was really arguing Law>Luffy. there were some, but not many