One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Cracker had better defense than Katakuri but he got one-shotted. So it wouldn't take much to defeat katakuri probably a couple of kong guns. If luffy is fast enough to hit him, then Katakuri's gonna lose.

I think Katakuri would be far easier to deal with than Cracker especially since Katakuri isn't an army. What Luffy did to Katakuri holding him with just Gear 3rd could never have been done against one of Cracker's clones for sure.

 

[Enima]

I think Katakuri would be far easier to deal with than Cracker especially since Katakuri isn't an army. What Luffy did to Katakuri holding him with just Gear 3rd could never have been done against one of Cracker's clones for sure.

Exactly!

Realistically it should be an easy win for Luffy, if Katakuri isn't fast enough to dodge his attacks then G4 Luffy can win quite easily. If Katakuri is fast then he might win by wearing Luffy down, but considering that he got caught by elephant gun, I don't think he's faster than Luffy. But, since Luffy is exhausted he might not be able to use G4 in which case Katakuri will have the upper hand.

 

[kingsley29101990]

I think Katakuri would be far easier to deal with than Cracker especially since Katakuri isn't an army. What Luffy did to Katakuri holding him with just Gear 3rd could never have been done against one of Cracker's clones for sure.

cracker is the kind of enemy you'd hate fighting, he really is a one man army, kinda makes you wonder why bigmom needs the Germa army when she's got cracker.

katakuri for me looks easier than cracker based on recent developments ( luffy can touch him now), he's just too calm for my liking, wonder if he'll still be calm just seconds before he's knocked out,

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2017 ---

Why are people complaining about Katakuri observation haki, like get real, that only works against slow opponents and luffy isn't that slow, yeah sure Katakuri probably saw luffy grabbing due to what he said, but if it's too late the he's helpless. It's like saying, because you have observation haki, you can dodge all of kizarus attack even though he's mad fast.
And I swear if another cracker and mingo argument starts again (rolls eyes).

totally agree with you, what's the point of seeing an attack is gonna happen, but then too slow to dodge it, luffy has an edge, but if it turns out katakuri can keep up to luffy in gear4. then luffy will be screwed, he'll probably get a power up or will need another form of gear4

 

[SoulAuron]

Which also shows that Katakuri can compete with and challenge Luffy if Luffy had to resort to that.

Wasn't he using Gear 4 and still failed to beat Katakuri on at least one occasion? And yeah, I did say that one way for Luffy to win is to be faster than Katakuri and his prediction ability. Especially if/when Katakuri has comparable spped or reflex.

But if Katakuri is one of the top commanders over other commanders, then it'd make sense if he had Color of Armament as well.

actually luffy never used gear four against katakuri, he only used gear four twice this arc, against cracker and against big mom, and when he used it against big mom it ran out very fast (wich was weird) but that means there was no time for anyone to get involved, so we dont actually know how katakuri measures up against gear fourth.

in my opinion, based on what we saw so far gear fourth will probably have enough power to hurt katakuri pretty well, there are tow main problems in this fight, the first is luffy figuring out how to actually hurt katakuri in the first place, oda did something weird with katakuris df and untill luffy figures it out he has 0% chance of wining, the second problem is katakuris observation, even if luffy figures out how to hurt katakuri its still possible for katakuri to predict how luffy will attack and come up with countermeasures to stop luffy from doing whatever he has to do to hurt katakuri, but as we have seen that ability is not infalible.

and speaking of katakuris future sight, i disagree with hanibal that his observation cant be used in the heat of battle, but i do think its harder to use it in the heat of battle because you need a lot of concentration and multitasking to predict what your oponenet will do in the future, read his current thoughts with your observation haki and decide what to do right now so as to make use of your prediction without leting it be changed too soon and thus become useless, so i think people are giving katakuri too much flack, when the future can be changed the ability to see the future becames far harder to actually use, and its expected that he will indeed be caught by surprise some times.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2017 ---

The guy who was supposed to be an Armament haki specialist got knocked out by a no name attack from G4.... so.....

it wasnt a no name attack, it was anything but, it was called tank cannon, and it was an extreemely powerfull attack, as it combined the full force of gear four and the full force of crackers own attack, plus the hardness of crackers own biscuits (although that was a situational bonus and not part of the attack itself) i was quite upset when that fight concluded because nobody seemed to realize how strong that taack had been, its probably not quite a king kong gun, but its certainly MUCH stronger then the usual gear 4 attack.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

cracker is the kind of enemy you'd hate fighting, he really is a one man army, kinda makes you wonder why bigmom needs the Germa army when she's got cracker.

katakuri for me looks easier than cracker based on recent developments ( luffy can touch him now), he's just too calm for my liking, wonder if he'll still be calm just seconds before he's knocked out,

Maybe it's because on sea (or in rain), his ability is at a disadvantage. Also, in the event Cracker is defeated being that he has poor durability, his biscuits become obsolete. The Germa army are powerful and flexible. I'd assume they can easily fight on sea and in various conditions that'd otherwise be awkward for other fighters.

and speaking of katakuris future sight, i disagree with hanibal that his observation cant be used in the heat of battle, but i do think its harder to use it in the heat of battle because you need a lot of concentration and multitasking to predict what your oponenet will do in the future, read his current thoughts with your observation haki and decide what to do right now so as to make use of your prediction without leting it be changed too soon and thus become useless, so i think people are giving katakuri too much flack, when the future can be changed the ability to see the future becames far harder to actually use, and its expected that he will indeed be caught by surprise some times.

You disagree, then show me a panel where Observation Haki has been used in the heat of battle?

1. Why did Mihawk fail to cut Luffy.
2. Why did Katakuri fail to hit Sanji despite his Observation superiority? Why was this apparent seer surprised?
   Spoiler

   
3. Why did Katakuri get caught by Luffy and express surprise?
4. Explain why Shura didn't defeat Ganfall easily in Skypiea despite Ganfall lacking Haki?
5. In fact, explain why Sengoku was surprised when Luffy expanded whilst attacking... if Observation can be used in the heat of battle or attacks?
   Spoiler

   

I assure you, there's not 1 example where Observation Haki has been shown usable in the heat of battle, otherwise, Katakuri as other Observation Haki users would fail to get hit especially with his ability to see so far ahead. Everyone knows he can see so far ahead, yet don't want to acknowledge the contradiction that he's getting caught by attacks. Hell, despite his ability to see in the future, he still failed to prevent Luffy from show Big Mom the Mother Carmel picture. If it's not a contradiction, then logically, it has to be a limitation.

If Observation Haki was as flexible as you claim it to be, then Admiral Sengoku should never have been surprised by Luffy expanding as he'd have perceived it with his Observation; Mihawk would not have failed to cut Luffy despite trying to do so; Katakuri would have known his attack would fail; none of these happened because Observation Haki simply cannot be sued in the heat of battle.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Observation haki seems more like a "sense others' intentions", not a "see the future".

It does see the future, Sandersonia sees what he'll do, she's just to slow to counter. Eve Usopp saw the future, he saw what Sugar would do to Luffy and Law if she touched them.

Spoiler

Satori explicitly says he will stretch before he even stretches. That is literally seeing the future. Even if you want to disagree that it's seeing, fact is it makes known the future clearly.

For example, Katakuri is able to sense in advance that Bege intends to kill Big Mom.

Katakuri didn't sense anything, he just realise that Bege was stalling rather than trying to kill Luffy when ordered and realised that Bege had betrayed the crew especially after he verbalised his defiance. He simply deduced it. Not everything Katakuri does is related to seeing the future.

But he cannot anticipate what Luffy is gonna do 10 secondes before he'll do it, if Luffy only thinks about it later than that.

It's not even that he's anticipating, he can see the future. We even see this from Marigold, she actually saw everything Luffy did before he did it, she just couldn't keep up with the speed to counter his movement.

Remember what happened when Luffy went "dumb" in order to evade Enel's attacks ? Well, he was running on animal instinct alone, anticipating nothing, reacting just fractions of seconds before Enel was attacking. Enel couldn't predict that, or at least not quickly enough to modify his attack and land a hit on Luffy.

That's not really the case. Observation Haki as I said can only see actions that one has committed to act on in their minds and will definitely follow through with it, and I used the word "PREMEDITATED". A premeditated move is any action thought of and committed to follow through with. Any action that's not premeditated meaning... to not have consciously decided on it and physically commit to it, it won't be predicted. It's exactly what Nami said and is what Luffy is doing here by simply acting on instinct - while on instinct, he's unable to fight.

It's not a perfect explaination, and i guess Oda does whatever he wants. Still it matches best what i read for the past years.

It really is simple, it's not at all as ambiguous as you make it out to be:

1. Observation Haki predicts the future actions.
2. It can only predict if the action is premeditated.
3. It can only function when observing and not in the heat of battle.

If none of these were true, then there's simply no other way to explain why Katakuri and Mihawk failed to land their attacks on people inferior to them.

Like I said in previous posts, anyone who questions this should go and re-read or watch Shura, an Observation Haki user was still surprised and failed to land their attacks against Gan Fall who wasn't even an Observation Haki user.

Katakuri is powerful, his Observation Haki is excellent, but the fact is Observation Haki has limitations and that's what is clearly not recognised.

 

[I Am Atomic]

@Hannibal Psyche

If what you say is true about Observation Haki, then I would like to present two scenario's where Observation haki need to be utilised in the heat of battle.

1. Vs Kizaru. Kizaru moves really fast which means that when fighting against him CoO is essential. In the movie 3d2y (non canon), Rayleigh tells him that han eyes cannot keep up with speed of light and for that reason CoO is essential. Even though its non canon, i think its a good reasoning. Therefore, when fighting against Kizaru, CoO needs to constantly active.

2. Fujitora. He is blind, therefore he needs to use CoO always. You can argue by saying that he can fight using his other senses. True. However, when he was introduced he walked very slowly and used his stick to navigate like any normal human does. Someone blind who is skilled in combat wouldn't walk like that imo. Ofc its my logic and can be wrong.

CoO can be used in the heat of battle but it requires enough concentration.
Eg. Satori lost control of his Mantra when Luffy unexpectedly brought the string of exploding balls right to him, enabling Luffy to grab him from behind when the smoke cleared, Gedatsu lost to Chopper because he lost his concentration and his Mantra faltered, and Otohime was killed by a gunshot in the confusion when her petition pages were being burned, as she was caught off guard due to her happiness over everyone signing her petitions, she lost her concentration.

Katakuri's limitation:

The ability to see into the future, which requires an extremely high level of skill, also has its limitations. Katakuti was able to see Sanji dodging Father's gunshot and tried to intervene immediately by attacking Sanji himself. However, he was unable to see the outcome of his own intervention of this event in time, resulting in Sanji surprising him when he dodged his attack as well. In addition, the user can only interpret the future through their own senses. Katakuri foresaw his sister Pudding crying on the altar, but because he was too far away from her in his vision to hear what had happened, he had no way to know what was about to cause this.

This is all I could find. If we can see more of Luffy v Katakuri then we will be able to learn more about CoO.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

1. Vs Kizaru. Kizaru moves really fast which means that when fighting against him CoO is essential. In the movie 3d2y (non canon), Rayleigh tells him that han eyes cannot keep up with speed of light and for that reason CoO is essential. Even though its non canon, i think its a good reasoning. Therefore, when fighting against Kizaru, CoO needs to constantly active.

For one, Kizaru doesn't fight at light speed. His general movement isn't light-speed. His movement from point A-B can be at light speed, but his fighting in general isn't except you think Rayleigh moves at light-speed.

When Rayleigh said attacks that move at light speed, all Rayleigh is saying, you can move before such attacks can even move. If you know an attack like one of Kizaru's beams is going to hit you, all you need know ahead of time is the trajectory of the attack. Luffy did this against the Pacifista at the beginning of the time-skip when the Pacifista shot him.

CoO is not actively needed. Kizaru's overall movement isn't light speed.

2. Fujitora. He is blind, therefore he needs to use CoO always. You can argue by saying that he can fight using his other senses. True. However, when he was introduced he walked very slowly and used his stick to navigate like any normal human does. Someone blind who is skilled in combat wouldn't walk like that imo. Ofc its my logic and can be wrong.

Not at all. As a blind man, there are other ways to make sense of your surroundings. Hearing, feeling, smelling, etc. In fact, Fujitora showcased this. Other sense are heightened. All Observation Haki does is discern living things and predict premeditated actions. Fujitora doesn't need Observation Haki all the time. It's not necessary for him to live from day to day. People who are blind make sense of their surroundings with their other senses despite their lack of sight.

CoO can be used in the heat of battle but it requires enough concentration.

Nope, impossible, it's never been done.

Satori losing control has nothing to do with it, he simply lost concentration just showcasing that he's not fully disciplined. No one can commit to an attack and use Observation Haki at the same time. Like I said, explain why Shura is surprised by Gan Fall despite the fact Gan Fall isn't even an Observation Haki user? Why is he fighting on par with Shura?

Spoiler

Katakuti was able to see Sanji dodging Father's gunshot and tried to intervene immediately by attacking Sanji himself.

Like I said, Observation Haki is only useful when observing, can't be used when attacking because it requires too much concentration.

1. He was able to see Father because he was miss because he was solely Observing.
2. He was unable to see Sanji dodge his own attack because no one can use Observation Haki whilst attacking. Not even Mihawk.

In addition, the user can only interpret the future through their own senses.

Not at all proven. He can only see actions, nothing implies he can hear what is being said when using Observation Haki. Distance is irrelevant, senses are irrelevant, otherwise, being blind should mean one cannot see things properly, but Observation Haki is not reliant on physical sense, it's an ability on its own. Only reason he was able to predict what Jigra said is most likely due to lip-reading.

In fact, Sanji said "what a beautiful eye" before she fell, so Katakuri should have heard it if what you say is correct, but it really isn't. Observation predicts movement and that's what's been solely showcased.

 

[SoulAuron]

Maybe it's because on sea (or in rain), his ability is at a disadvantage. Also, in the event Cracker is defeated being that he has poor durability, his biscuits become obsolete. The Germa army are powerful and flexible. I'd assume they can easily fight on sea and in various conditions that'd otherwise be awkward for other fighters.



You disagree, then show me a panel where Observation Haki has been used in the heat of battle?

1. Why did Mihawk fail to cut Luffy.
2. Why did Katakuri fail to hit Sanji despite his Observation superiority? Why was this apparent seer surprised?
   Spoiler

   
3. Why did Katakuri get caught by Luffy and express surprise?
4. Explain why Shura didn't defeat Ganfall easily in Skypiea despite Ganfall lacking Haki?
5. In fact, explain why Sengoku was surprised when Luffy expanded whilst attacking... if Observation can be used in the heat of battle or attacks?
   Spoiler

   

I assure you, there's not 1 example where Observation Haki has been shown usable in the heat of battle, otherwise, Katakuri as other Observation Haki users would fail to get hit especially with his ability to see so far ahead. Everyone knows he can see so far ahead, yet don't want to acknowledge the contradiction that he's getting caught by attacks. Hell, despite his ability to see in the future, he still failed to prevent Luffy from show Big Mom the Mother Carmel picture. If it's not a contradiction, then logically, it has to be a limitation.

If Observation Haki was as flexible as you claim it to be, then Admiral Sengoku should never have been surprised by Luffy expanding as he'd have perceived it with his Observation; Mihawk would not have failed to cut Luffy despite trying to do so; Katakuri would have known his attack would fail; none of these happened because Observation Haki simply cannot be sued in the heat of battle.

i assume you did not read the rest of what i said, because i provided just an answer to what you said, even though you can use it that doesnt mean you can use it at 100% eficiency, because there are too many things to think about, and if your actions change the future they might change it in a way you didnt expect, potentially making the action you took useless, and in skypea we got observation haki being used in battle by enel and his priests, so in conclusion, it can be used, its just not infalible, it would be the most disapointing power ever introduced to one piece if it cant be used in the heat of battle.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

i assume you did not read the rest of what i said, because i provided just an answer to what you said, even though you can use it that doesnt mean you can use it at 100% eficiency, because there are too many things to think about, and if your actions change the future they might change it in a way you didnt expect, potentially making the action you took useless, and in skypea we got observation haki being used in battle by enel and his priests, so in conclusion, it can be used, its just not infalible, it would be the most disapointing power ever introduced to one piece if it cant be used in the heat of battle.

That's your opinion.

The facts show otherwise.

It has nothing to do with efficiency, even Mihawk failed to cut Luffy, Katakuri failed to hit Sanji, and Shura was caught off-guard multiple times against a non-Haki user. Evidence speaks for itself. Just because something doesn't meet your expectations doesn't make it any less of a fact.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2017 ---

http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/758/13
Not debating your thought on OH yet, but Usopp didnt see the future, Sugar actually was close to touching them. What he did see is the aura.... Usopp's haki isnt like others, his scale is distance, not time.

It's all the same. It's like saying another character's Armament Haki is different to another, no it's not.

Haki is the same, he just used one facet of Observation Haki.

It's like trying to say that one persons Armament Haki is solely for increasing the strength of an attack while another persons is to make contact with Logia, they all have the same function.

 

[Enima]

it wasnt a no name attack, it was anything but, it was called tank cannon, and it was an extreemely powerfull attack, as it combined the full force of gear four and the full force of crackers own attack, plus the hardness of crackers own biscuits (although that was a situational bonus and not part of the attack itself) i was quite upset when that fight concluded because nobody seemed to realize how strong that taack had been, its probably not quite a king kong gun, but its certainly MUCH stronger then the usual gear 4 attack.

Dude, I didn't mean it was literally a "no name attack". It had a name but it didn't come close to kong gun (not king kong gun, just kong gun) when it comes to power. The attack was basically Luffy throwing Cracker with enough force to take him out.

Fujitora. He is blind, therefore he needs to use CoO always. You can argue by saying that he can fight using his other senses. True. However, when he was introduced he walked very slowly and used his stick to navigate like any normal human does. Someone blind who is skilled in combat wouldn't walk like that imo. Ofc its my logic and can be wrong.

He controls gravity, I'm guessing that could be used to sense people and objects. He can probably sense everything affected by gravity(within a certain range).

My guess is, observation Haki can be used in battle but it can only be used to sense people. Katakuri's version is far too advanced to be used in the middle of a battle, it requires concentration.

 

[hokageji]

It's all the same. It's like saying another character's Armament Haki is different to another, no it's not.

Haki is the same, he just used one facet of Observation Haki.

It's like trying to say that one persons Armament Haki is solely for increasing the strength of an attack while another persons is to make contact with Logia, they all have the same function.

Yes, except Ussop didnt see the future. He saw the Aura, its very different. He also didnt see Sugar attack ahead of time.... predicted it but didnt see it like his observation haki would.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Yes, except Ussop didnt see the future. He saw the Aura, its very different. He also didnt see Sugar attack ahead of time.... predicted it but didnt see it like his observation haki would.

You're right he didn't, Usopp just knew the consequences.

Point is to state Usopp's Haki isn't like the others is wrong.

Fujitora saw in the same way as Usopp did.

Are you then going to claim that Fujitora can't perceive the future actions of people too?

Haki doesn't just work 1 way for 1 character and differently for another, it all functions the same, this manga thrives on consistency.

 

[GomuGomu_Getsuga]

Not sure what the debate going on is about but I personally think Cracker is a good bit stronger than Katakuri. Luffy would have been defeated by Cracker had he been alone.

I know bounties aren't power levels but it does speak volumes for Cracker who's bounty is almost as big as Katakuri without ever showing his true strength. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Luffy loses this battle.

Luffy is lacking severely in the stamina department. He needs to see the weakness of Gear 4th before he can grow. A loss here would be good for him.

 

[M3J]

To be fair, Cracker could be weaker than Katakuri and still be able to beat Luffy just because of his specialization in one skill. If Katakuri's durability is high, and he's a very skilled fighter, then he could lose to Luffy and still be considered superior to Cracker. Power level isn't as simple as DBZ as there are various things to consider.

Luffy knows the weaknesses of Gear 4. I think as the story progresses, he'll improve on Gear 4... maybe by the time he gets to Kaidou the risks of using Gear 4 is minimized significantly.

 

[I Am Atomic]

On chapter 871, Luffy clashed with BM using G4

Spoiler

After that we see that Luffy is out of G4 and said "I am loosing power"

Spoiler

Many speculated that BM drained his energy or Luffy is tired. However, what I think happened is different.

BM called Luffy spineless and in reply Luffy said to Sanji "just one puch"

Spoiler

So here it is. From the start, Luffy only wanted to trade one punch with BM. He went G4 and out. However, when he went out of G4, all the air is expelled out, which made Luffy go weaker. Hence, he said he is losing power.

Therefore, I think that Luffy isn't that tired. Otherwise, Luffy v Katakuri shouldn't be happening.

 

[LaGOAT]

guys I stongly disagree that G4 can even take down katakuri he needs another power up like an awaken plain G4 isn't enough I have said that repeatedly. Luffy isn't winining a 1v1 without a power up those are facts

 

[nik87]

Gear 4th is pretty powerful, more powerful than anything he had, by far. KKG has great destructive force but simply having that could not be enough for a win. If you cant hit the opponent like in case with Cracker or if Katakuri's body can handle hits even better than a logia. It should work against commander levels but against Yonkos i dont expect it to do much.

 

[GodOfDestruction]

Spoiler

After this chapter and this battle has begun, it would appears so. What do you guys think?

 

[nik87]

I think its unfair to think that any Yonko is far above the other. Their strength is pretty much close as well as the strength of their fleet. We can assume that Whitebeard was a bit above the others since he was an opponent who fought Roger to a standstill, a man who was closest to One piece. He wasnt interested in becoming a Pirate King tho, all he wanted was his family but nonetheless he was a monster who had the power to destroy the world, a man who fought the War of the Best with his heart stabbed from beginning.

Other Yonkos, we can assume Blackbeard as weakest but with potential to become strongest. We dont know much about Shanks except hes an exceptional user of Kings Haki. We know that both Big Mom and Kaido are monsters as well but we also know that both of them werent ready to become Pirate King and were making preparations, we can assume that Blackbeard is preparing as well at full speed.

Bottom line, their might is pretty close, none of them is able to take on the other Yonkos without great loses.