One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

  • For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
  • Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
  • Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
  • We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

  1. Shanks v Mihawk
  2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
  3. Zoro > Luffy
  4. Zoro v Sanji
  5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
  6. Mihawk's rank within the story
  7. Law having CoC currently.
  8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
 
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Fox666

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IMHO Vergo is underestimated because he lost to Law. However Law is crazy strong, and his ability is also very difficult to counter.





Going by what Doflamingo said, Law managed to cut Vergo with his ability simply because his Haki surpassed Vergo's. Before Doflamingo had his internal organs damaged by Law, Luffy had a hard time defending himself from Doflamingo using Haki, something which Law had less trouble with.





So Ceasar assessment that Luffy was no match for Vergo makes sense. It seems even Luffy would have had a hard time on a fist-fight against Vergo.
 

King Moe

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Of course Sanji should have hardening but it's not been confirmed by the Manga that he has it. That's expected if he's to keep up with Zoro which is also what the Raid Suit is for.

Now you are jumping into conclusion that Sanji defeated Pageone when there's possibility he didn't.
Who's been unfair?

You seem to have a key hole 1 dimensional view when it comes to Sanji, so much so that you can't accept the fact that he underperforms in certain areas even when he does.
Yet when it comes to any SH other than Sanji, you are ready to see things fairly - hmmm...

Usopp getting a win over someone who nearly cracked his skull doesn't make him stronger than that person. In fact Usopp is usually weaker than most opponents he's pitted against. Him getting the win doesn't make him stronger. Same applies to Sanji who in his case didn't get to finish his battle with Vergo (thankfully) cos I truly didn't see any way he could win. If his major mode of offence is damaged early on then that only spells doom.

And what in the world am I hearing? Sanji stronger than Bege? Okay this is bordering on absurdity.
Bege is able to tank multiple punches from an angry BM in his castle form. A feat Sanji cannot bare to accomplish.
Plus he's a Supernova. The most ballsy Pirates in the New World which Sanji isn't part of for very clear reasons.

You guys need to stop this ridiculous hyping of Sanji it's just getting outrageous at this point.
He could keep up with him even without RS since both already been stated to have Haki from Luffy. Armament is truly confirmed by the anime as Oda probably was the one to give order to show it. I doubt anime would give a power to an character if Oda state they could never do it. So unless Oda put on twitter how upset he is about it or somewhere, pretty sure that was stated on canon. Besides Oda also said that he uses the anime to extend things that he couldn't insert as he was more focus on plots more nowdays, so it won't be farfetched if the anime help confirm things more.

So your saying you ignore the big talk from Law and Sanji to allow a fight that the conditions were:

1. He must keep his identity secret to prevent enemies from nowing.

2. He not gain even an injury on him so he can compete in the final battle.

3. Must do away with Page One before others arrive and he situation become worse.

So far it pointing more on him beating him as he filling the conditions of not being hurt, no one know his true identity, so it make sense if Page One was defeated since he promised to get he deed done. What makes you think he won't keep promises at all?

I do see everything fairly, but I go with everyone on fair remarks, so far your posting stuff that is unfairly on your end as why would Sanji let him stay active? Give me a good reason why? Cause it will results in wrecking the plans further if he was and plus he will continue attacking innocent people in the end of it. Sanji is someone in his character who won't break promises and let people to get hurt because of him, so Idk why you think he could have let those stuff happen as it doesn't match the context. You need to match the context in order to prove your point it could happen, but so far your saying opposite that he let him go without doing the deed which doesn't make sense.

He is a smart fighter, so his brain counts in getting stronger and for him to survive and still win is showing Oda doesn't care about broken bones. Also you ignore Harjudan's case as well and he physically shows you can win even your bones broken. Sanji will do the same as again the fight ended by interruption, not because Sanji gave up or ran away. Heck, the same leg he got 'hurt' was used to walk with and even ran. We never seen him get medical treatment out of it, showing that broken bones is not an reliable factor to say an character will lose. Again I would respect your argument more, if you come with someone new instead of being of the few who try to enforce the broken bone argument when it doesn't matter in OP.

Lol, so he tank Yonko punches meaning he is top tier than everyone? Dude stop...Just stop, Judge survive getting hit by Big Mom's attack. Luffy survive getting hit back as well. Also speaking of which, didn't Sanji block an attack with Luffy against Big Mom against Reiju? So by that logic yes he can compete with him the same. Nothing in Bege's arsenal (literally) have power to be above others just because he took her punches which were unnamed attacks and not even full power from all we know. We haven't seen Big Mom at her full power before, so Idk get why you putting Bege up that high. Durablity I can give him, but I am not going crazy like you on putting him through the moon.

Sanji isn't because of not having bounty before Sabody, it never was because he lack strength or such. He came into the crew later who Luffy and Zoro already were making names and soon got bounties. It make sense why he couldn't make it, because he came into later, but that doesn't mean he can't compete with them or fight them off. So yeah Sanji has feats and even more now that he defeated PO. Your underestimation of Sanji is really ridiculous by heck. You got to try to be more open-minded to this if you want your points to be more across than these.
 

Shasha23

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That may be true for base form Luffy and g2, not sure abt G3 but Caesar had no idea about G4, which would rekt Vergo easily.
I dont even think Luffy would need G4 to beat Vergo, the guy is trash dont know why Sanjilover is hyping him up soo much for, the guy got OHKO'd
 

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Jeah feats told by Ceasar arent really the most reliable ones.

Still Vergo was not bad at all, he had haki + some of the six formulas, which is quite the combo. But in the end, he beat up smoker, who was mostly trying to steal something from him. Against Law he always used his heart and after he lost it, he got one hitted.

I agree on luffy wouldnt need Gear4, since his hyped up haki was destroyed quite fast.
 

M3J

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how did Law one-hit Vergo or destroy him so quickly?
 

XXGenesis

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What evidence say Zoro can defeat Vergo in PH and after defeating Pica? Pica is not a physical fighter like Vergo. Not only one who see that.
Start the thread and take a tally...Lol i'm positive the majority agrees Yes, Zoro would have defeated Vergo…….Ooo and then do a Sanji vs Vergo thread and see the tally there...I'm sure the majority would agree that Sanji, never had what it took to defeat Vergo….I'm not baiting i'm actually serious, I was gonna start the Zoro vs Vergo myself...

Vergo put some good pain in on Law, and he owned Smoker. Law w/o his handicap is stronger than Vergo, and has shown to be able to endure a beating from the man longer, than necessary. Sanji, kicked Vergo and said he feels like Iron. Vergo retaliated with some Haki kicks and cracked Sanji's legs, we then see Sanji take light damage from Judge's sword while using Haki...

Zoro was a bad opponent for Pics, who wasnt all that weak. Sanji would be screwed if he had to face Pics honestly. I doubt Sanji can defeat full Haki body Pics either...

Diamante & Trebol is more Sanji's level pre RS
 

King Moe

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Start the thread and take a tally...Lol i'm positive the majority agrees Yes, Zoro would have defeated Vergo…….Ooo and then do a Sanji vs Vergo thread and see the tally there...I'm sure the majority would agree that Sanji, never had what it took to defeat Vergo….I'm not baiting i'm actually serious, I was gonna start the Zoro vs Vergo myself...

Vergo put some good pain in on Law, and he owned Smoker. Law w/o his handicap is stronger than Vergo, and has shown to be able to endure a beating from the man longer, than necessary. Sanji, kicked Vergo and said he feels like Iron. Vergo retaliated with some Haki kicks and cracked Sanji's legs, we then see Sanji take light damage from Judge's sword while using Haki...

Zoro was a bad opponent for Pics, who wasnt all that weak. Sanji would be screwed if he had to face Pics honestly. I doubt Sanji can defeat full Haki body Pics either...

Diamante & Trebol is more Sanji's level pre RS
Depending how he shows things in this arc, but in that time of PH, he wouldn't have defeated him. So far when Zoro face a serious opponent, he gets hit hard as Fujitora and Hawkins are prove of that and he couldn't even cut down Birdcage after cutting Pica's giant size, showcasing more he is more overhype than can handle higher tier fighters at the time. Not really, a lot of websites said Sanji would beat him if he was fresher as you guys always ignore crucial factors that he just came from switching from Nami using his body who use it poorly in defending herself and take damage. Usopp comment on Sanji's body not 100% as before after taking Nami's slap, so it was already stated when facing Vergo, but still he took him on until he choose to leave, not Sanji. Showing that if Sanji was more fresher and fight continue, he can defeat Vergo.

Zoro in the same arc won't do better at all if Law and Smoker struggle with him. Nothing states he could have in the arc or later even after defeating Pica as you can't compare both fighters the same way. Again Idk why your overhyping him too much as usual. Sanji lost the fight because Judge uses human shields. Where was he felt overpower by judge? It felt more like he gave up due to seeing the disgusting display never heavily injured as you look aftermath and he hardly got any injuries inserting more the fight was never serious enough for him to continue. Again your opinions don't make sense here. Law is stronger than Vergo, but close between them as before even Vergo uses the heart clutch, they fought and he does best him around with speed and power in certain instances. It's not that far off and Sanji's durability I already explain to you above and he is top tier of durability in the crew and other characters. He took worse fighting punishment than with Vergo if he still was able to walk with the same leg that got hurt without needing medical treatment at all.

Pica was weak and not much as we seen Zoro cut stones before, him cutting up more stones doesn't really insert that he deadly stronger. It was a cat and mouse fight, not really anything on Zoro side to put in. Sanji can easily break the stones down, but he is more smart fighter and with superior COO, he can locate Pica and corner him more than Zoro which took him longer on his side. Sanji would easily beat him with his own power since full body haki means nothing if using partly can still defeat it as shown by Law and Zoro. They aren't the only ones that can do it, you know. Sanji could handle any of the commanders of Doflamingo if he was able to hold out with Vergo when he wasn't in 100% state. That enforces more that fresher, he can take them down.

Your points are not really proving matter nor are changing my mind as your not trying to accept context of situation of what stated on why Sanji's fights for some are the way they are. If you can include them, I would trust your argument more, but so far it doesn't you and few are trying to look upon that as much and just look by pictures than facts by words.
 

Fox666

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how did Law one-hit Vergo or destroy him so quickly?
Vergo went face-to-face against Law, believing that he wouldn't need any strategy against "Room" because of his Haki.

Besides there was a difference in power between Vergo and Law.

Jeah feats told by Ceasar arent really the most reliable ones.

Still Vergo was not bad at all, he had haki + some of the six formulas, which is quite the combo. But in the end, he beat up smoker, who was mostly trying to steal something from him. Against Law he always used his heart and after he lost it, he got one hitted.

I agree on luffy wouldnt need Gear4, since his hyped up haki was destroyed quite fast.
Even if Ceasar underestimated Luffy, there's both him and Doflamingo believing that Vergo could take down 400,000,000 pirates from the Worst Generation. That speaks volume about how strong Vergo was.

Compare it when Luffy and Law went against Doflamingo and Trebol, Doflamingo was clearly worrying about Trebol's satefy during the battle.
 
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M3J

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What difference was there? All I saw was Law using his devil fruit to beat Vergo, not beat him by throwing hands or weapons. How would haki affect Room?
 

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Vergo was a Marine Vice Admiral and a Base Commander in the New World on top of that. He was already using full-body Armament Haki as a mere soldier, it speaks for itself that Vergo is crazy strong.

People just like to downgrade him because he is a Marine, and somehow people have in their headcanon that Vice Admirals suck, which is wrong. Vice Admirals are the elite of the Marines.

If I would have to put him in a powerlevel tier with pirates, I would easily put him in the same category as Perospero, Oven, Daifuku, Tamago, etc..

Losing to Law is no shame, that guy is a member of the Worst Generation and was a Shishibukai on top of that. Vergo underestimated him, and Law wasn't using a casual attack. Laws fruit consumes stamina, and that slash cut the entire mountain in half. Law can't throw these out casually. If you run face-first into a finisher move from someone like Law, you lose.

If Vergo would have been an active pirate, his bounty could be around 500M+ easily. Tamago is 429M.
 

XXGenesis

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Doffy isnt anywhere Admiral level. Yet not even Fujitora coulda cut The Birdcage. It never was a technique to be stopped aside from beating Doffy himself. When you say Zoro couldn't cut the birdcage its the mutest argument ever. A very salty fanboy argument, you keep bringing up. Stop its unsightly.

Law & Zoro have good COA. With feats to back it up, Sanji does not!... His best feat is blocking Daifuku's genie attack. And a speed feat against Oven. Almost Empty feats because he cant defest those opponents, anyway. Sanji has no good showings Pre wano arc.

You downplay any character Sanji has faced or others that do better than him against then play him up, and ignore others feats, all the while knowing Sanji has nothing note worthy to his name. It's pathetic and tiring, that's the only thing I wanna convince you off.
 

Fox666

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What difference was there? All I saw was Law using his devil fruit to beat Vergo, not beat him by throwing hands or weapons. How would haki affect Room?
Doflamingo said Vergo's Haki would stop Law's cutting ability. It seems Doflamingo expected Vergo would come out scattered from Law's sword attack, like Diamond Jozu.
 
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M3J

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Sanji's CoA is good enough that even the Judge praised him for knowing haki...


Vergo was a Marine Vice Admiral and a Base Commander in the New World on top of that. He was already using full-body Armament Haki as a mere soldier, it speaks for itself that Vergo is crazy strong.

People just like to downgrade him because he is a Marine, and somehow people have in their headcanon that Vice Admirals suck, which is wrong. Vice Admirals are the elite of the Marines.

If I would have to put him in a powerlevel tier with pirates, I would easily put him in the same category as Perospero, Oven, Daifuku, Tamago, etc..

Losing to Law is no shame, that guy is a member of the Worst Generation and was a Shishibukai on top of that. Vergo underestimated him, and Law wasn't using a casual attack. Laws fruit consumes stamina, and that slash cut the entire mountain in half. Law can't throw these out casually. If you run face-first into a finisher move from someone like Law, you lose.

If Vergo would have been an active pirate, his bounty could be around 500M+ easily. Tamago is 429M.
Methinks Vergo gets downgraded to make Sanji look bad as they can claim he lost to someone who's not that good of a fighter. I reiterate, there's rarely a good argument against Sanji. The bias against him is far too strong.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Doflamingo said Vergo's Haki would stop Law's cutting ability. It seems Doflamingo expected Vergo would come out scattered from Law's sword attack, like Diamond Jozu.
His ope ope no mi cutting ability or his swordsmanship?
 

King Moe

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Sanji's CoA is good enough that even the Judge praised him for knowing haki...




Methinks Vergo gets downgraded to make Sanji look bad as they can claim he lost to someone who's not that good of a fighter. I reiterate, there's rarely a good argument against Sanji. The bias against him is far too strong.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



His ope ope no mi cutting ability or his swordsmanship?
Not really majority think that. I seen it more on Zoro fans use it as excuse Sanji isn't at his lvl, but hardly truth at all especially Zoro not doing better in facing serious threat as of late.

You be surprise how many are with the statement of Sanji has more to offer than oen things.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

Doffy isnt anywhere Admiral level. Yet not even Fujitora coulda cut The Birdcage. It never was a technique to be stopped aside from beating Doffy himself. When you say Zoro couldn't cut the birdcage its the mutest argument ever. A very salty fanboy argument, you keep bringing up. Stop its unsightly.

Law & Zoro have good COA. With feats to back it up, Sanji does not!... His best feat is blocking Daifuku's genie attack. And a speed feat against Oven. Almost Empty feats because he cant defest those opponents, anyway. Sanji has no good showings Pre wano arc.

You downplay any character Sanji has faced or others that do better than him against then play him up, and ignore others feats, all the while knowing Sanji has nothing note worthy to his name. It's pathetic and tiring, that's the only thing I wanna convince you off.
Fujitora didn't do much to it or him is because of World Government. They aren't allowed to intervene at all. Didn't you read the arc? It's one of the reasons why he wants Warlord system gone cause they don't have the power to do anything to them unless heavy proof they going against their agreement with the WG. Same thing happened to Smoker on wanting to do much to Crocodile, but instead in both situations, they rely on Luffy and his crew on defeating both issues. Never it hint Fujitora can't do anything cause he wasn't stronger.

Not salty. Just your taking it that way as you can't accept the truth. Why would a swordsman after making a big 'feat' of cutting Pica's giant stone body, refuse to consider to cut the Birdcage instead? I know Zoro isn't the 'smartest' character around, but even he has logic about it. For him not to do it or consider means he isn't strong enough to cut it and thus means he couldn't fight off Doflamingo if they fought head-on. So far only Luffy can break his strings in the whole arc. Idk why you want to denied this as it's common logic here.

Giant Genie with presumed Haki Body Armor looking at it. He use Armament Haki to deflect it's larger version with ease which we saw the Genie easily swipe away multiple ships when it was chasing Carrot. For you to denied feat as 'nothing' is the most ignorant thing I ever seen. Holding back an opponent is good enough than needing to defeat on who is stronger. Sanji has feats and with that 'argument' of yours, then Zoro is poor with Fujitora and Hawkins as he couldn't do anything much to them. You can't be two-faced over the situations with fanboyism. Be fair on both sides, then trying to downplay a character with not much backing at all.

I never downplayed, I am just saying how strong Sanji is than you think as your downplaying him even in good showing. Sanji showing more against his opponents doesn't disrespect them. He isn't weak. He is one of the top tier of Strawhats as well future to be one of top tiers of the world of OP at the end of the series. Your idea thinking Sanji won't do much or won't gets stronger is painfully aware man. Don't lecture me on this when your doing something what you said. My stance is different. I give out facts and all the details, you however keep ignoring other situations and just see it like "Oh! Sanji got his leg hurt by Vergo meaning Sanji was never strong guy or destined not be strong." when it been established that BROKEN BONES MEAN NOTHING (Emphasizing, not yelling). Usopp got damage harder from his fight, won in the end. Harjudan damage hard in his fight, still won in the end.

Your not looking the possibilities and only looking like he lose all his fights if they went on, but hardly the case. I will only listen to you if you try to be more fair in your argument and not have poor judgement in there. Not being mean to you, but just being honest your argument is not that stable at all.
 

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Even if Ceasar underestimated Luffy, there's both him and Doflamingo believing that Vergo could take down 400,000,000 pirates from the Worst Generation. That speaks volume about how strong Vergo was.

Compare it when Luffy and Law went against Doflamingo and Trebol, Doflamingo was clearly worrying about Trebol's satefy during the battle.
the same Doffy that thought Luffy cant get out of the arena, or beat Diamante?

Yes he was worried because he saw how strong they were after seeing how strong Luffy was and how well Law was fighting against him, face facts Doffy's top executives are trash compared to supernova level opponents
 

M3J

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Not really majority think that. I seen it more on Zoro fans use it as excuse Sanji isn't at his lvl, but hardly truth at all especially Zoro not doing better in facing serious threat as of late.

You be surprise how many are with the statement of Sanji has more to offer than oen things.
But other than that, it makes no sense to think Vergo is not good, Hell, I highly doubt Luffy would have even a semi-easy time beating him.
Both. That's what Doflamingo seems to imply...
I thought he was talking about Law's swordsmanship rather than devil fruit.
 

Fox666

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I thought he was talking about Law's swordsmanship rather than devil fruit.
He used the word "ability", I always assume it's the Devil Fruit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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