One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

Now I see why HP's absolved himself of debating with guys such as yourself. It's a total waste of time that leads nowhere.

That's actually not why, and he's not that much better either. But in any case, my annoyance and boredom comes from people criticizing Sanji without providing good argument, from his fight against Vergo to his usefulness at Whole Cake Island (which he did manage to save lives despite what anyone says). Or claiming that Zoro is way below Luffy even though we've never seen Zoro go all out thus far. Or claim Luffy could take on Big Mom, and it took him getting his ass handed to him by Katakuri for fans to realize that he would lose to her.

 

[nik87]

@King Moe I remember telling you not so long ago that what you are doing with Sanji is having the completely opposite effect of what you intend. Your intentions may be good but you are actually causing harm to the picture of Sanji that the readers have in their minds. At this point, even the heavens, know your stance on the Sanji matter so the best you can do is not argue it that much because it does more harm than good.

Everyone knows completely well that all Strawhats, except Luffy, have been treated poorly in New World, especially Sanji, considering that he is 3rd strongest member of the crew. If you argue this you are just making the discussion annoying. Ten years have passed and we are still discussing Sanji's fight against Jabra as the best feats he has and you are claiming that Sanji has been treated well... If ten years are not enough maybe you need 10 more to realize the poor treatment that Sanji and all others, captain aside, have been receiving?

Your vision of Sanji and his feats is very unrealistic and only creates unnecessary arguments, claiming things without confirmation is another issue...
Whether you take this as advice or as trolling, it's up to you but the best course of action you can take is let go of Sanji for a bit so he can breathe.

 

[King Moe]

@nik87 Not so. How by defending and countering claims? I respect opinions if you don't like Sanji, that's fine. Never said everyone must worship Sanji, but their complaints are not good arguments at all. M3J just posted above yours on the issue as well others in the past like Lexus, Dude, Pea, Lightning, etc.. I do avoid debates if it become nowhere to go with, so don't worry. Though you can't denied the Sanji's underestimation is too crazy at this point and why others like me, M3J, and others are speaking out. It's one thing to not like the character, but another to say 'He is weak, he is useless, he won't get stronger, etc.'. You have to understand it gets annoying hearing that over especially the claims are poor on why they want to paint Sanji as bad when he hardly at that lvl.

I am not arguing that. I get that and they are lacking in fights, but that doesn't make them 'useless' as there is a difference on the subject and Sanji so far his only issue is his fights doesn't last as much or full fights. I agree with you guys, but holding back an opponent is good enough feat as it shows he is doing something and he can handle them. So far he gotten great character development and latest fight just beaten Top 6 Headliner, so Idk where it's still 'poor' on Sanji's side. It's either by exaggeration or certain fans don't want to admit he did good.

More your claims from your mind on saying their are 'bad' when reality, you guys been posting off bad arguments. Why you think others are coming to defend Sanji? Don't say 'delusional' as you got to learn there are those with opinions as well putting out the right facts. So far and after speaking to most, many haven't given out legit facts and logic on their claims. I can only respect a few on those who do like Takuan for example as him I can understand and see more as he does do his research, but the others is having harder time to see their side when they do poor judgement. Not hating you guys or saying Sanji's perfection, but you have to come with realistic claims is all. So far it hasn't been the case.

Though thanks for the advice, will cut down on Sanji a bit here and there and won't try to post with to get some rest, but do the same with yourself on how you are with the character yourself and that goes for Zoro as well, Nik.

 

[nik87]

@nik87 Not so. How by defending and countering claims? I respect opinions if you don't like Sanji, that's fine. Never said everyone must worship Sanji, but their complaints are not good arguments at all. M3J just posted above yours on the issue as well others in the past like Lexus, Dude, Pea, Lightning, etc.. I do avoid debates if it become nowhere to go with, so don't worry. Though you can't denied the Sanji's underestimation is too crazy at this point and why others like me, M3J, and others are speaking out. It's one thing to not like the character, but another to say 'He is weak, he is useless, he won't get stronger, etc.'. You have to understand it gets annoying hearing that over especially the claims are poor on why they want to paint Sanji as bad when he hardly at that lvl.

I am not arguing that. I get that and they are lacking in fights, but that doesn't make them 'useless' as there is a difference on the subject and Sanji so far his only issue is his fights doesn't last as much or full fights. I agree with you guys, but holding back an opponent is good enough feat as it shows he is doing something and he can handle them. So far he gotten great character development and latest fight just beaten Top 6 Headliner, so Idk where it's still 'poor' on Sanji's side. It's either by exaggeration or certain fans don't want to admit he did good.

More your claims from your mind on saying their are 'bad' when reality, you guys been posting off bad arguments. Why you think others are coming to defend Sanji? Don't say 'delusional' as you got to learn there are those with opinions as well putting out the right facts. So far and after speaking to most, many haven't given out legit facts and logic on their claims. I can only respect a few on those who do like Takuan for example as him I can understand and see more as he does do his research, but the others is having harder time to see their side when they do poor judgement. Not hating you guys or saying Sanji's perfection, but you have to come with realistic claims is all. So far it hasn't been the case.

Though thanks for the advice, will cut down on Sanji a bit here and there and won't try to post with to get some rest, but do the same with yourself on how you are with the character yourself and that goes for Zoro as well, Nik.

For some reason I am having trouble believing everything you just said and the entire post feels like troll. You ignored almost everything I said and went on discussing your headcanon but oh well, I tried...

 

[King Moe]

For some reason I am having trouble believing everything you just said and the entire post feels like troll. You ignored almost everything I said and went on discussing your headcanon but oh well, I tried...

See, that's the problem. You take words on you as 'trolls' if they don't fully agree with you. Just because we don't share same opinions on Sanji doesn't mean I am a troll or others.

I also agree with what you said and your kinda ruining it why saying 'headcannon' again. I am gonna lay off, but only you and others step back as well. We don't need everyday Sanji detraction if M3J, me, and others don't want yo see or hear repeats of it either. Situation will be brought back this way, so lets take a break about it if your serious on your end.

 

[XXGenesis]

This is why Mods shouldn't delete every post. I admitly was baiting recently, but I think we've come to a great conclusion now. Sometimes you just have to go through the mud..

@King Moe You have come a long way. Months ago you were telling ppl they don't know what they are reading, or there comprehension was low..You were more mildy insulting, with your exchange of ideas. And accepting others.

I've been where you are before. I'm 28 and been posting here for roughly 8yrs+, viewed the site for even longer. I've had rants, tried to control the talk or idea of chracters in a forum etc..When I look back on those post, i realize. I should have posted with less feelings of difference. And should have tried to be a better debater by using facts, good context and understanding the popular accepted TRUTH. And if im challenging popular ideas of others, find ways to disagree after, proving your argument without repeating the same thing over and over.

@nik87 anyone else whos been part of the discussion. Let's all take a little break...Ive realized, King Moe and everyone else here have history, on the forum debating. We all know our current issue...."Sanji talk" Let's unwind, and start over. Tensions are little high.

 

[afromarco005]

My evidence isn't biased, it's with logic and research.

Spoiler

Who do you think wins Pica in city sized golem form or Big Faether ?

 

[King Moe]

Spoiler

Who do you think wins Pica in city sized golem form or Big Faether ?

Afro, let it go. We taking a break. Don't be the reason we go back. Be more mature than that.

Pica. Bege is like a house to his giant size. He won't survive a big hit from his body.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

So you are saying Pica has more destructive power then big Mom?

 

[afromarco005]

Thats what makes the match up interesting, both are huge stone creatures, one is more sturdy the other is way bigger and heavier.

@King Moe Ok.

 

[King Moe]

This is why Mods shouldn't delete every post. I admitly was baiting recently, but I think we've come to a great conclusion now. Sometimes you just have to go through the mud..

@King Moe You have come a long way. Months ago you were telling ppl they don't know what they are reading, or there comprehension was low..You were more mildy insulting, with your exchange of ideas. And accepting others.

I've been where you are before. I'm 28 and been posting here for roughly 8yrs+, viewed the site for even longer. I've had rants, tried to control the talk or idea of chracters in a forum etc..When I look back on those post, i realize. I should have posted with less feelings of difference. And should have tried to be a better debater by using facts, good context and understanding the popular accepted TRUTH. And if im challenging popular ideas of others, find ways to disagree after, proving your argument without repeating the same thing over and over.

@nik87 anyone else whos been part of the discussion. Let's all take a little break...Ive realized, King Moe and everyone else here have history, on the forum debating. We all know our current issue...."Sanji talk" Let's unwind, and start over. Tensions are little high.

Honestly I can agree with your statement. I came debut in wrong way and too emotional. I can admit that as I wasn't perfect at the start. After awhile I learn to understand atmosphere around and topics at hand as well do my research to be better. Once I did, I start posting how you see today. So I do respect and get how you mean. Though do understand I don't post with hate or disrespect to you guys, it's just me keeping fairness in judgement and putting sense in arguments as we don't want to say things about something or someone by emotion rather than look it up. Know what I mean? When we debate next time, hope we can be more civil and you guys don't see me trying to anger you as I explained in detail about my posts. I don't do like small one-liners attacking others like a regular troll would do.

Hope this clears things up between us more and we do better in the future on debates from now onward even when we agree to disagree on something.

 

[M3J]

So you are saying Pica has more destructive power then big Mom?

He can. It depends on how much stone is available. It's a similar situation to King Elizabello or whoever - doesn't seem to be that impressive, but his King Punch can do one hell of a damage to supposedly even an Emperor.

 

[albertwv]

Alright let's put the Sanji debate behind us. Let's agree to disagree, you can rank him as high as you want or as low. Whatever, I stay by my opinion and you by yours. Now Pica vs. Big Father, I will say Big Father/Bege solely on the fact that Bege tanked a couple hits from a furious Big Mom, almost dying but whatever, I don't see Pica's stone form taking that many as a Gear 3rd Luffy punch with CoA, destroyed Pica's face or arm whatever, though Pica seemed to take no damage.
So i'm going to throw it back as few years..back to pre-timeskip. Do you think any of the 11 supernovas besides luffy and zolo, could defeat CP9 (Rob Lucci) or Moria?

 

[M3J]

I don't know if Zoro can defeat Lucci, but if the other Supernova didn't know haki then I'd say Law and Bege would stand the best chances. The only reason why only Luffy could fight Lucci out of everyone is because he's rubber. Drake might stand a doozy of a chance though given he's zoan and should be tough.

Against Moria, I think nearly all of the Supernovas would do well or at least, not too badly. Law would probably stand the best chance with Room, but I dunno if Hawkins has anything to deal with the zombies. I actually see Moria as inferior to Lucci.

 

[albertwv]

I don't know if Zoro can defeat Lucci, but if the other Supernova didn't know haki then I'd say Law and Bege would stand the best chances. The only reason why only Luffy could fight Lucci out of everyone is because he's rubber. Drake might stand a doozy of a chance though given he's zoan and should be tough.

Against Moria, I think nearly all of the Supernovas would do well or at least, not too badly. Law would probably stand the best chance with Room, but I dunno if Hawkins has anything to deal with the zombies. I actually see Moria as inferior to Lucci.

Well at that time, I don't think any of the supernovas knew haki, but how come you see Moria as inferior to Lucci? Drake vs. Lucci, yeah I see Drake standing a chance, Law too with his DF, Hawkins sure since he has straw lives, Kid for sures, Apoo maybe have a hard time with Lucci. The rest of them I don't think so.

 

[Takuan]

Moria was actually pretty strong in Thriller Bark because of the army he amassed and more importantly, because of Oars. Remove Oars, all the zombies and the opportunity for Moria to get all these shadows back to him, and he's fairly weak. I mean not weak, but all that remains is his physical CQC and his basic DF abilities like his Dopperman (or whatever it was called) his shadow bats and stuff. Which would be a pain in the ass but eventually the strongest Supernovas should be able to handle.
So to answer that question, i don't think any Supernovas could have solo'd Moria if we take Moria's situation in Thriller Bark (aka with shadows everywhere, zombies, Oars). Not unless we have a team-up of some sort, or some power-up like Nightmare Luffy.
If we take Moria alone, well, i'd say the "strong" fighters should be able to defeat him. So, Luffy, Zoro, Kidd, Law, Drake, Urouge, at the very last, but possibly more, if not all of them. Just don't know about those who showed close to nothing in terms of actual combat, like Bonney (would her hax DF even work against Moria? Can she do anything else?)

Moria's power is actually very, very situational. In Thriller Bark he was at his peak, just like Pica was at his peak in a huge stone city like Dresrossa. He gets weaker and weaker in other situations.

Rob Lucci is another story. To be honest, i don't think any Supernovas would have an easier time against him than Luffy had. Law arguably having the best DF out of all the Supernovas, i'd say he would stand the best chance at beating Rob Lucci. I don't see any other beating him.

 

[M3J]

I dunno, some probably knew how to use haki. I think we're just comparing them to the Straw Hats, hence the assumption that they didn't know haki.

Because Moria didn't show much apart from being able to control zombies, the greater threat came from Oars and then Moria's ability to make Oars fight like Luffy. Why do you think Kidd would stand a chance against Lucci? If he had tons of metal around, I could see that happening. not sure what Apoo's power is though.

 

[XXGenesis]

So, where do you guys place/rank the SuperNova Captains & the two 1stmate Supernovas post timeskip???

From what we've seen so far, I would say the top 3 Luffy/Law/Kidd. Pre WCI arc all floating in that realm right under the weaker Yonkou commanders. Right around Doffy lv & at Max power similar to Urouge, it seems they could defeat somebody like Snack or Cracker...Bounties of 800k Max

Law put up a good fight against Doffy while injured, still he fell very short. & suffered a little while fighting Vergo. Luffy in G4 is stronger than Doffy, who impressively has some high endurance; Unlike Cracker who imo was equal to G4 Luffy, but had low endurance. Then Luffy's forces Katakuri to submit a 1billlion Berri bounty; So Yea Luffy is settled in at Low Yonkou Commander after WCI arc. While Urouge we know, has made massive leaps & bounds in power & has presumably taken out Snack, a character around Doffy's lv, Law's Lv, but definitely above someone like Vergo. & Kidd's strength has always been foreshadowed to be around the same as Luffy's, possibly slightly under given Luffy's amazing track record in the New world.

The other SuperNovas Bege,Drake,Hawkins, Appo...Have all been forced under a Yonkou's thumb and do not sit within their Commander ranks but notable fighters....They are still hell of strong if you ask me. I would compare them to "Headliners" or Yonkou combatants such as Perspero, Oven & Daifuku. Who all in their own right were stronger than Ppl like Tamago,Pekoms & Pedro.

Now as for Zoro & Killer*(if I'm not mistaken)Kidds 1sr Mate...I say at max they edge out Ppl like Tamago, Pedro & Pekoms.
Doffy like Of threats.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I don't see Pica's stone form taking that many as a Gear 3rd Luffy punch with CoA, destroyed Pica's face or arm whatever, though Pica seemed to take no damage.

That's because Pica seems to hide in a concentrated place within the golems he creates. A similar trick to Trebol you could say. Since they are Paramecia and not Logia, hitting the substance they control does not equate to hitting them.
Hence it's more or less like he's riding and controlling the stone. Another character with a similar usage of his DF would be the antagonist from the OP movie "Gold" in his final form against Luffy. Wrecking their substance alone will not do as one still needs to wreck their real body too (hidden within the substance).

 

[albertwv]

I think Luffy is the strongest thanks to G4, and defeating Doffy, Cracker, and Dogtooth. Sorry but I do not see any of the other supernovas defeating Doffy much less Dogtooth. Law got wrecked by Doffy. I understand that Kid seems like a rival to Luffy, but even though he apparently fought a BMP sweet commander (my theory is that he & Urouge fought Snack together, I just don't see Urouge defeating a Yonko Commander by himself) and fought the RHP to who he lost an arm too, I still don't see him defeating Doffy.
Btw, how strong is Hancock compared to the supernovas post time skip, do you think Law can beat her, or even Sanji (if he was immune to her beauty)?

One more thing, we all know the forms of Luffy (base, Gear 2/3 and Gear 4). In between Gear 2 and Gear 4 Luffy, who falls in that power gap? For example, who is stronger than a Gear 2/3 Luffy but weaker than a Gear 4 Luffy and by how much? I would put Doffy closer to Gear 4 than Gear 2.