One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[nik87]

Look at you bargaining because you know Luffy is above Zoro and will continue to be that strong. You are crying because of Luffy's stregnth. Unfortunatley for you, Luffy will be the strongest as that is his goal, to have the most freedom in the world, so that nobody can stop him from doing what he wants. So go cry to Oda.

Advanced Armamnet Haki makes it so Non weapon users are able to fight people with Weopons and lethal devil fruits. So Swordsman are no more a problem for Luffy. Advacned Armament Haki also gives luffy lethality using internal destruction haki.

Bargaining? What exactly am I bargaining? I am pointing out manga facts.
Luffy never was and never will be stronger than Zoro.
Oda has made them equal in manga, in databooks their combat power was equal all 3 times when it was compared.

No, being the strongest is not Luffy goal. That's Zoro's goal.
Zoro can stop him from doing what he wants, he already did back in W7.

So, you finally admit that swordsmen were a problem for Luffy and now they arent anymore? Looks like you were bargaining for so many years, huh?
Swordsmen will always be a problem for Luffy, that's why he wont fight any of them.
I think your expectations will be reduced the moment Luffy starts using advanced CoA, wont be anywhere as effective as you think.
But dont worry, that marimo swordsman who will be the strongest will protect Luffy from any harm.

Big Mom has like 10 times the army of Kaido.
Some 10k size army was sent to (and subsequently crushed by) Germa Kingdom.
It's just homies, but as far as numbers go she is at the top.

She may have higher overall numbers but like you said, most of them are just hommie soldiers while Kaido's forces are of higher quality.
Considering their wildness and the organization being a meritocracy, Beast Pirates should be ahead but anyway those two crews are on top.

I'll just end this from my side with this:
we don't know who the fuck is stronger. Titles aren't everything, and Oda can just as easily hype up a character to have them lose to someone else.

He can but he didnt. Titles are exactly that, to let us know who is stronger.
Why would he use those titles in the first place if not to tell us exactly who World's STRONGEST are?
Kaido not only has the world's strongest creature title, he also has 1vs1 champion reputation but also SBS statement which places him as strongest.
I think no matter what Oda does, this fandom will be like: Nope, we still dont know who is the strongest... Unless he accidentally calls my favorite the strongest?

 

[Aki1991]

Because every OP platform revolves around the Marimo, there is no escaping it.

Zolo lost to Kuma, Enel btw

He would not stand a chance against Crocodile also in Alabasta or against Dofy

 

[nik87]

Zolo lost to Kuma, Enel btw
He would not stand a chance against Crocodile also in Alabasta or against Dofy

Do you know to he also lost? To the strongest swordsman in the world.
He would eat Doffy for breakfast if the Admiral didnt stop him.

 

[AmitDS]

Any of those characters you mention could ward off each other and not all of them were the strongest so obviously being the strongest in not requirement.
Every top tier can ward off any other top tier, there is literally no need to be the strongest to be PK. Old age Rayleigh who hasnt used swords in decades is warding off a Marine admiral, Rayleigh is far from stronger and has enough strength to be PK.

Luffy's most terrifying power are not his abilities or techniques, it the power to make other people want to help him. Someone like that will never be the strongest. He is going to have the largest amount of allies one ever had, that's his greatest power. He achieves nothing by being the strongest, his fights constantly require help and allies. Let's not even start that he is not even close as lethal as swordsmen so let's not compare him to Roger but to Garp instead.

@Bold. Are you for real? Well hate to break it to you, but he will be the strongest and oh we're back on swords again. Typical. I guess Zoro will be the strongest instead?

I don't think you understand what highest level of power means. Yeah WB and Garp could ward off Roger however they are not beyond him. At best they are equal so him being the strongest or WB being the strongest aren't mutually exclusive. There was no pirate or marine stronger than Roger. No one could have surely beaten him 1 vs 1. He had equals not no one superior. One can be the strongest or on the highest level and have others on that same level. Which was the case with Roger.

What does Rayleigh have to do with this? He himself noted that he was weaker than he was when he was with Roger. He was managing to hold off an admiral and was at his limit. That's not what a prime Rayleigh or certainly a prime WB or Roger would be capable of. So that point is wrong.

Luffy didn't require help for many of his fights 1 vs 1 and just because he needs help for Kaido or Big Mom doesn't mean that EOS Luffy would need it for Blackbeard and the other obstacles to Raftel which would invariably prove my point. You can't honestly believe that OP will end without Luffy having a single 1 vs 1 clash with an emperor and/or an admiral can you?

And apart from the fact that the story compares him to Roger, comparing him to Garp isn't changing anything since he's on the same level so...

 

[nik87]

Are you for real? Well hate to break it to you, but he will be the strongest and oh we're back on swords again. Typical. I guess Zoro will be the strongest instead?

If Zoro isnt the strongest it will be final villain who will also be beaten by group effort. At least, that's my guess.

I don't think you understand what highest level of power means. Yeah WB and Garp could ward off Roger however they are not beyond him. At best they are equal so him being the strongest or WB being the strongest aren't mutually exclusive. There was no pirate or marine stronger than Roger. No one could have surely beaten him 1 vs 1. He had equals not no one superior. One can be the strongest or on the highest level and have others on that same level. Which was the case with Roger.
What does Rayleigh have to do with this? He himself noted that he was weaker than he was when he was with Roger. He was managing to hold off an admiral and was at his limit. That's not what a prime Rayleigh or certainly a prime WB or Roger would be capable of. So that point is wrong.

That's the point, you dont need to be strongest to fight those who are strongest. You dont need to win, you just need to not lose. That's enough to be a PK.
Old Rayleigh has enough strength to be PK because he can fight and not lose to Marine's greatest combat force, an admiral.

Luffy didn't require help for many of his fights 1 vs 1 and just because he needs help for Kaido or Big Mom doesn't mean that EOS Luffy would need it for Blackbeard and the other obstacles to Raftel which would invariably prove my point. You can't honestly believe that OP will end without Luffy having a single 1 vs 1 clash with an emperor and/or an admiral can you?

And for many of his fights, he did require help...
He had help against Enel, he had help against zOars, he had help against Px-4, he had help against Doflamingo, he had help against Cracker, he had help against Katakuri and he will have help against Emperors. Looks like having help is the future of his fights, not a surprise considering his greatest power to make other people want to help him...
Do you know he wont need help against Blackbeard? Do you know that he wont need help against whoever the final villain is? You dont know...

 

[Fox666]

Old Rayleigh has enough strength to be PK because he can fight and not lose to Marine's greatest combat force, an admiral.

Rayleigh is the second strongest of the Pirate King crew. By definition, that means he would loose to those who were equal to Roger, like Whitebeard and Garp.

 

[AmitDS]

If Zoro isnt the strongest it will be final villain who will also be beaten by group effort. At least, that's my guess.

That's the point, you dont need to be strongest to fight those who are strongest. You dont need to win, you just need to not lose. That's enough to be a PK.
Old Rayleigh has enough strength to be PK because he can fight and not lose to Marine's greatest combat force, an admiral.

And for many of his fights, he did require help...
He had help against Enel, he had help against zOars, he had help against Px-4, he had help against Doflamingo, he had help against Cracker, he had help against Katakuri and he will have help against Emperors. Looks like having help is the future of his fights, not a surprise considering his greatest power to make other people want to help him...
Do you know he wont need help against Blackbeard? Do you know that he wont need help against whoever the final villain is? You dont know...

So you think Zoro could be the strongest but not Luffy? You think Zoro will end up being stronger than Luffy? Well your guess isn't enough anyway. Luffy's getting a 1 vs 1 with an emperor for sure and it's likely Blackbeard. And yeah I know. I mean everyone else thinks they know what Oda thinks and means so why shouldn't I give it a shot? Luffy isn't going to be Pirate King if a pirate or 2 exist who can beat him 1 vs 1. It's common sense and it's implicit. It shouldn't have to be stated that the king of pirates and the protagonist will eventually fight the strongest pirate and win before he becomes pirate king. Oda even made him have personal grudges and reasons to want to beat Akainu (Fleet Admiral) and Blackbeard (Emperor).

Yes you do need to be the strongest. That's why when Roger died they said WB was the closest to being PK. It's not up for debate. More than one person can be the strongest. And no one being stronger than Roger means that he was the strongest. If you want to say one of the strongest then fine. My point stands. At some point he would not have Law, Kidd etc. helping him and Luffy will have to face an emperor or an admiral 1 vs 1.

Aaand for many of his fights he didn't require help so. He didn't have help against Crocodile, Hody, Katakuri, Arlong, Don Krieg, Lucci and I don't recall him getting any help against Enel.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 3, 2020 ---

Rayleigh is the second strongest of the Pirate King crew. By definition, that means he would loose to those who were equal to Roger, like Whitebeard and Garp.

It shouldn't be such an issue but for some reason Luffy being the strongest pirate like Roger was in his time is controversial

 

[nik87]

Rayleigh is the second strongest of the Pirate King crew. By definition, that means he would loose to those who were equal to Roger, like Whitebeard and Garp.

Where is the logic in that? Nothing says that Rayleigh would lose to Roger, Whitebeard or Garp unless they fought a life and death battle until the winner emerged. That isnt required to be a PK. He needs to fight them and stall until he gets from them what he wants/until he can escape.
Big Mom despite being weaker than Kaido didnt lose to him, why would Rayleigh lose?

So you think Zoro could be the strongest but not Luffy? You think Zoro will end up being stronger than Luffy? Well your guess isn't enough anyway. Luffy's getting a 1 vs 1 with an emperor for sure and it's likely Blackbeard. And yeah I know. I mean everyone else thinks they know what Oda thinks and means so why shouldn't I give it a shot? Luffy isn't going to be Pirate King if a pirate or 2 exist who can beat him 1 vs 1. It's common sense and it's implicit. It shouldn't have to be stated that the king of pirates and the protagonist will eventually fight the strongest pirate and win before he becomes pirate king. Oda even made him have personal grudges and reasons to want to beat Akainu (Fleet Admiral) and Blackbeard (Emperor).

Zoro has superior combat style than Luffy's and the sole purpose of his character is to seek strength and be the strongest.
However, knowing Oda, he wouldnt outright say that MC is weaker or show him lose to Zoro, he would make them equal again, until Nami claps both.
Did you know that there is good amount of people who think Shiryu beats Blackbeard and that opponent will fight Zoro?
Enlighten me what can Blackbeard possibly do against Shiryu?

Becoming PK isnt the end of story tho so your point isnt really convincing that Luffy is the strongest.
Akainu aint even the final villain judging by everything, just an underling who does the WG's job...
Roger wouldnt be PK if his partner Rayleigh was stronger than him? Why not, lol?

Yes you do need to be the strongest. That's why when Roger died they said WB was the closest to being PK. It's not up for debate. More than one person can be the strongest. And no one being stronger than Roger means that he was the strongest. If you want to say one of the strongest then fine. My point stands. At some point he would not have Law, Kidd etc. helping him and Luffy will have to face an emperor or an admiral 1 vs 1.

Aaand for many of his fights he didn't require help so. He didn't have help against Crocodile, Hody, Katakuri, Arlong, Don Krieg, Lucci and I don't recall him getting any help against Enel.

Roger wasnt stronger than Whitebeard, the title of WSM always belonged to WB, even during Roger's life, it's not a mistake or coincidence but Oda's choice. Luffy isnt Roger, the only way he is becoming strongest if Oda goes ape shit with power scaling a la Naruto and even then he wouldnt be the strongest because the villain would be.

He had help against Katakuri. Did you forget Brulee saving his ass just when he needed it?
Did you forget Wyper killing Enel? Did you forget Enel giving him basically a buff superior to G3?

 

[Aki1991]

Do you know to he also lost? To the strongest swordsman in the world.
He would eat Doffy for breakfast if the Admiral didnt stop him.

Tell this Dofys birdcage

 

[nik87]

Tell this Dofys birdcage

Birdcage is too slow, an Admiral had to step in.

 

[roggie]

Zoro has superior combat style than Luffy's and the sole purpose of his character is to seek strength and be the strongest.

Yeah but so far Luffy fought many more stronger opponents, what we know is the key to evolve your haki.

Also, haki is the key to fight swords with fists, i see no reason to keep discussing that. Most people here fail to note that those who depend on their fists against swords have their haki pushed further.

When you use a sword you have kind of a easier path.

 

[nik87]

Also, haki is the key to fight swords with fists, i see no reason to keep discussing that. Most people here fail to note that those who depend on their fists against swords have their haki pushed further.
When you use a sword you have kind of a easier path.

I think you see it from the wrong angle...
Those who use swords need stronger haki because most of the time they are clashing with other swords, not something inferior like flesh and bones in hands.
Only two swordsmen have achieved something no one else did, a black blade, which we can bet our heads on has to do with Armament Haki.
The moment it gets revealed what a Black Blade is, is possibly the moment this discussion will end and I bet it will be in favor of swords, logically.

 

[King Moe]

Possible but if it was just swordfighting, then Mihawk would likely beat Fujitora.


Oda said Strongest Swordsman, not the Strongest Pirate.

I am questioning the title of 'WSS' as many theorized that Mihawk conqueror Wano in beating their best swordsmen on there, but it is reveal he never step foot it seems on the Wano Country to help boost his feats, so feel his WSS feeling more lesser if he didn't even challenge Wano swordsmen to test his swordsmanship more. While he did face Pre-Yonko Shanks, I would expect he has more challenges on how he reach to where he is, but if he didn't face no one in Wano to help push him as WSS, then kinda feel more lackluster on why they give title to him even with Shanks, shouldn't push notion on him as 'WSS' as given title.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 3, 2020 ---

Yeah but so far Luffy fought many more stronger opponents, what we know is the key to evolve your haki.

Also, haki is the key to fight swords with fists, i see no reason to keep discussing that. Most people here fail to note that those who depend on their fists against swords have their haki pushed further.

When you use a sword you have kind of a easier path.

Plus Luffy does have better combat experience than Zoro especially when you realize Zoro without his swords can't beat anyone notable as common weakness for him while Luffy is more versatile on beating anyone with his fighting style as facing stronger foes like you said help push him involve more compare to Zoro. Honestly between NW Opponents, Zoro has weaker list compare to Luffy to the point it's like night and day miles apart as no doubt Oda sees Luffy as his MC and going to be strongest not just in the crew, but in the whole series when he become PK.

 

[roggie]

Just realized although RHP are just a handful of pirates, Shanks is considered an yonko.

Maybe now that Mihawk lost his shichibukai status he gets to be considered an Yonko?? Hopefully Shanks positions won't be in danger, if Kaido goes down in this arc, i mean.

On a more serious note, i agree with nik that the black blade explanation will give us a lot more enlightenment on the sword topic. For better or for worse

I wanna see who will come for Mihawk, what happens and i bet it would be amazing if he joined the Mihawk Pirates (former Red Hair Pirates)

 

[Fox666]

The emperors control territories.

While Luffy technically does not do that, the likes of Bartolomeo have claimed some islands on his name.

 

[M3J]

I am questioning the title of 'WSS' as many theorized that Mihawk conqueror Wano in beating their best swordsmen on there, but it is reveal he never step foot it seems on the Wano Country to help boost his feats, so feel his WSS feeling more lesser if he didn't even challenge Wano swordsmen to test his swordsmanship more. While he did face Pre-Yonko Shanks, I would expect he has more challenges on how he reach to where he is, but if he didn't face no one in Wano to help push him as WSS, then kinda feel more lackluster on why they give title to him even with Shanks, shouldn't push notion on him as 'WSS' as given title.

Makes sense, but what if his opponents did fight the swordsmen on Wano, bested them, and lost to Mihawk, directly or indirectly?

 

[King Moe]

Makes sense, but what if his opponents did fight the swordsmen on Wano, bested them, and lost to Mihawk, directly or indirectly?

Ehhh...Then Idk as it depends who they face and plus not many are well known on taking on top of swordsmen there given it's a close country, so we can never guess who and until Oda show something about situation, then it kinda downplay Mihawk more given if he was given the title by solely by the Marines than anything else. Might means he truly didn't earn the title or top of his his swordsman ship unlike Whitebeard and Kaido who we can see why they are know as WSM and WSC respectively given their performance and who they faced.

 

[thedude]

The emperors control territories.

While Luffy technically does not do that, the likes of Bartolomeo have claimed some islands on his name.

Fishman Island also raised his pirate flag didn't they? So you could say he controls that territory.

 

[jaymizzo]

@nik87 apparently not everything is about Zoro. Is this true?

Damn, here I was thinking the manga was about Zoros quest to become the WSS by defeating renowned swordsmen all over the world, all of who are seeking to become the WSS.

 

[Shasha23]

@nik87 apparently not everything is about Zoro. Is this true?

Damn, here I was thinking the manga was about Zoros quest to become the WSS by defeating renowned swordsmen all over the world, all of who are seeking to become the WSS.

I saw 1 time Luffy losing his strawhat to a seagull