One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[nik87]

I mean it is useless to cry about it, the entire arc is land of swordsmen and whatever any swordsman does, it indirectly hypes up Zoro.
Complaining about Zoro and swordsmen in swordsmen arc is a Sisyphean job. There will be other arcs that don't have so much Zoro focus.
We just came from one where Zoro was absent for 2 years and people still cry when Zoro is a central figure of a sword centered arc...

 

[Nie Li]

Anyway, about the Birdcage.

Spoiler: Latest chapter from today

Another headcanon killed by today's chapter.
The Kinemon who was pushing the Birdcage slashed the most durable individual in the verse.
For all those who were saying that they were trying to cut it. Unless you want to argue that Birdcage>Kaido?

They'd have cut the cage if they could. Nothing would have stopped it better than destroying it instead of only slowing it down by pushing. They were even using black armament on their weapons. However, this only has three possible explanations.
1- The birdcage is indeed more durable than Kaido.
2- Kin'emon learned ryo after that scene so he would now be capable of cutting the bircage.
3- This is just an inconsistency from Oda.

And now a third topic:

@nik87 apparently not everything is about Zoro. Is this true?

Damn, here I was thinking the manga was about Zoros quest to become the WSS by defeating renowned swordsmen all over the world, all of who are seeking to become the WSS.

Of course Zoro is not the MC and not everything is about him, but nik is right in that sword feats directly hype Zoro's potential, since he has to defeat someone stronger than them.

This isn't the first time I have seen Zoro's mission being ridiculed on this forum "because it's a one man race", and this means that either you don't get what Zoro's ambition is or that you're so tired of arguing about Zoro that you have started to hate a bit on the character instead of being at least indifferent about him.

Getting the WSS title, as far as we know, is indeed a "one man race", but Zoro does NOT care about some petty title. Zoro cares about literally becoming the strongest swordsman on Earth. This does not mean that he's the strongest character or that he cannot be ever defeated (he probably won't since he promised but that's a different topic). What this means is that he'll challenge and defeat any strong swordsman on Earth until he's acknowledged as the best.
The existence of Mihawk's character and his title is simply a way to simplify Zoro's goal for the readers. A way of not having Zoro sail through literally every nook of the planet to search for a stronger swordsman wondering when he's truly become the strongest. Mihawk is the strongest now, so when Zoro defeats him, he'll have accomplished his promise to Kuina.
The title WSS itself is worth nothing. You get no money and no power from it. Mihawk lives all alone in a dead island with no crew or friends. He has nothing other than his title. It's Zoro's promise that matters. Mihawk and the WSS title are the solidification of the goal of said promise; Oda's way of treating us like children and simplifying Zoro's life mission to us: "Mihawk is the strongest so if Zoro cuts him up then he'll be the stronger than any swordsman, just like he promised". That's why it's a one man race. But it's also why it being a one man race doesn't take from Mihawk being literally the WSS and Zoro going to take that from him in the future.

Zoro still has to grow, but if there's only one long arc left after this one according to some tweet, then he's sure to speed his growth soon.
Let's see how he does in these battles.

 

[nik87]

IMHO plenty of times Zoro was having a hard time in Wano (Killer, Kyoshiro, Appo), so I wouldn't call it hype, if anything it shows he has a lot to grow.

Not one of those times was actually a hard time for Zoro...
And you missed the point of my post it seems otherwise you wouldnt have mentioned Apoo...

Killer couldnt do anything on his own, got one-shotted by injured Zoro as soon as he used a named move...
He clashed with Kyoshiro while injured and missing a sword, nothing more than pointless clash...
Never tried fighting Apoo and instead saved a KOed MC...

Before Zoro can grow, he needs to hit his limits and he never got even close to them.
He was clashing with Fujitora just fine, that's a top tier right there and he didnt need Asura while Luffy needed G3...

They'd have cut the cage if they could. Nothing would have stopped it better than destroying it instead of only slowing it down by pushing. They were even using black armament on their weapons. However, this only has three possible explanations.
1- The birdcage is indeed more durable than Kaido.
2- Kin'emon learned ryo after that scene so he would now be capable of cutting the bircage.
3- This is just an inconsistency from Oda.

You didnt understand the storytelling behind Birdcage either...
The characters decided to push the birdcage even before they interacted with it.
Not using even single named move is basically giving it away that nobody tried cutting it.
Both times in pre-TS, when Zoro had trouble cutting something, he pulled Asura...

1. Birdcage isnt hyped up as invincible like Kaido was.
2. Kinemon knew ryo back in PH...
3. It is not inconsistency, it is called plot element which serves to create tension.
Basic story writing element, dont think like a character from OP world, think like Oda...

 

[Nie Li]

You didnt understand the storytelling behind Birdcage either...
The characters decided to push the birdcage even before they interacted with it.
Not using even single named move is basically giving it away that nobody tried cutting it.
Both times in pre-TS, when Zoro had trouble cutting something, he pulled Asura...

1. Birdcage isnt hyped up as invincible like Kaido was.
2. Kinemon knew ryo back in PH...
3. It is not inconsistency, it is called plot element which serves to create tension.
Basic story writing element, dont think like a character from OP world, think like Oda...

But why would two strong swordsmen like Zoro and Kin'emon decide to push the cage without thinking of the possibility of cutting it up like they're used to doing with every other obstacle in the manga?

You may say it's storytelling but the story has to justify why some characters act one way or the other. Zoro and Kin'emon thought of using their swords and blackening them to stop the cage, but didn't think of trying to use those same swords to cut through it? they'd have immediately saved the citizens and destroyed Doflamingo's genocidal game and they could have rushed to help fight him.

 

[Shasha23]

Spoiler

1. Birdcage isnt hyped up as invincible like Kaido was.
2. Kinemon knew ryo back in PH...
3. It is not inconsistency, it is called plot element which serves to create tension.
Basic story writing element, dont think like a character from OP world, think like Oda...

Very true, the whole thing was made so Luffy would be the one to beat Doffy.

I mean Oda could have made Zoro run into Doffy while Luffy needed 10mins or he could have had Sabo run into Doffy and any one of them could have beaten Doffy that point, but he had to keep them away from Doffy and turn them into idiots who didn't even try to destroy bird cage when all indication imply that they could.
That whole thing was just Oda using plot to hold back characters from outshining Luffy.

 

[nik87]

Spoiler

But why would two strong swordsmen like Zoro and Kin'emon decide to push the cage without thinking of the possibility of cutting it up like they're used to doing with every other obstacle in the manga?

You may say it's storytelling but the story has to justify why some characters act one way or the other. Zoro and Kin'emon thought of using their swords and blackening them to stop the cage, but didn't think of trying to use those same swords to cut through it? they'd have immediately saved the citizens and destroyed Doflamingo's genocidal game and they could have rushed to help fight him.

I just told you why they decided to push it...
It is called plot induced stupidity when individuals act out of their character because it helps the story progression.
Very simple thing. Oda's story is full of plot holes, this is nothing unusual.

But it didnt justify it, it was so painfully obvious that it is plot purpose textbook example 101...
If they really were trying to cut you would be seeing named techniques flying left and right but not one was performed...
In the arc where Zoro said that there is nothing he cannot cut he decides to push things instead of to cut...

Birdcage serves the purpose Oda wants, Birdcage being cut doesnt serve the purpose Oda wants.
There were far better ways to execute it without shitting on either birdcage or swordsmen but Oda simply didnt care.
The Birdcage had to stay up until Doffy's defeat and if Imu himself descended from the heavens, it wouldnt have budged.
I hope I explained it.

 

[Nie Li]

Spoiler

Very true, the whole thing was made so Luffy would be the one to beat Doffy.

I mean Oda could have made Zoro run into Doffy while Luffy needed 10mins or he could have had Sabo run into Doffy and any one of them could have beaten Doffy that point, but he had to keep them away from Doffy and turn them into idiots who didn't even try to destroy bird cage when all indication imply that they could.
That whole thing was just Oda using plot to hold back characters from outshining Luffy.

Of course Oda kept other fighters from Doffy, but that doesn't necessarily mean his intention was to babysit Doffy.

Oda's plots are usually decent.

If Zoro could have cut the birdcage, these are the implications:

1- Zoro would have acted completely out of character. Usually his impulse against any adversity is to try and cut it down, because that's what Zoro does well, cutting things down. So here he would have acted against how he's acted throughout the series.

2- On top of that, Zoro wouldn't have two braincells if he didn't think of trying to use his swords to cut something that's slowly closing down on the city and that in an hour time would have killed all of his crewmates, all of the citizens of Dressrosa, and Zoro himself. Instead Zoro would have only thought of trying to slow down the timedown to his dead when "he could have just cut the danger down".

3- It's even worse when Zoro used his swords and even poured haki in them to blacken them but still decided to only use them as pushing tools.


That doesn't seem like good storytelling unless there's something I'm missing.

Birdcage serves the purpose Oda wants, Birdcage being cut doesnt serve the purpose Oda wants.
There were far better ways to execute it without shitting on either birdcage or swordsmen but Oda simply didnt care.
The Birdcage had to stay up until Doffy's defeat and if Imu himself descended from the heavens, it wouldnt have budged.
I hope I explained it.

But where's the proof that it was plot induced stupidity? Zoro never cut a single thread of Doffy in any arc of the manga, so to say that he could "but he suddenly became too stupid to do so" is a theory more than anything.

If Oda wanted to hold Zoro down he could have kept him busy with a stronger version of Pica, or, you know, keep him busy pushing a birdcage he really cannot cut.

 

[nik87]

Spoiler

But where's the proof that it was plot induced stupidity? Zoro never cut a single thread of Doffy in any arc of the manga, so to say that he could "but he suddenly became too stupid to do so" is a theory more than anything.
If Oda wanted to hold Zoro down he could have kept him busy with a stronger version of Pica, or, you know, keep him busy pushing a birdcage he really cannot cut.

Wait, are you literally not seeing the PIS in front of your eyes despite knowing that they decided to push it before even trying to cut it?
You are either refusing to see it purposefully or I dont know where the problem lies. Where is the problem?
The strings which made the Birdcage were cut by frickin Abdullah and Jeet. Do you need more evidence? Or Zoro cant cut it because it wasnt him?

Oda held down everyone by tasking them with pushing the Birdcage.
Sabo and Zoro could have gone and stomped the life out of Doflamingo in 1 minute but they didnt.
Why? Because that wasnt Oda's intention. Plain and simple.
If he wanted to make it clear to us that Zoro cant cut it he would have shown Zoro trying to cut it and comment on it...

 

[Brandish μ]

Have placed a few posts in Spoiler tags. Please do so until 24-hrs after the chapter drops, should you wish to discuss power levels relating to current spoilers.

 

[Shasha23]

Have placed a few posts in Spoiler tags. Please do so until 24-hrs after the chapter drops, should you wish to discuss power levels relating to current spoilers.

This is soo confusing, we are talking about Doffy and birdcage something that has nothing to do with upcoming chapter, so why should post be placed in spoiler tags ???????? so confused with the moderating this days

 

[Brandish μ]

This is soo confusing, we are talking about Doffy and birdcage something that has nothing to do with upcoming chapter, so why should post be placed in spoiler tags ???????? so confused with the moderating this days

I understand. As far as I can tell, the basis of this discussion surrounds how the scabbards cut Kaido the strongest and why they couldn't cut a birdcage. Happy to be corrected.

If that's the case, ideally, spoiler tags would have been used since this topic was brought up in the last day.

I heavily encourage the use of spoiler tags for Power Levels during the 24-hr spoiler rule. It helps the spoiler/chapter thread stay on topic, and allows discussions like the birdcage one to occur here.

 

[Nie Li]

Spoiler: Spoiler

Spoiler

Wait, are you literally not seeing the PIS in front of your eyes despite knowing that they decided to push it before even trying to cut it?
You are either refusing to see it purposefully or I dont know where the problem lies. Where is the problem?
The strings which made the Birdcage were cut by frickin Abdullah and Jeet. Do you need more evidence? Or Zoro cant cut it because it wasnt him?

Oda held down everyone by tasking them with pushing the Birdcage.
Sabo and Zoro could have gone and stomped the life out of Doflamingo in 1 minute but they didnt.
Why? Because that wasnt Oda's intention. Plain and simple.
If he wanted to make it clear to us that Zoro cant cut it he would have shown Zoro trying to cut it and comment on it...

Your whole point is that "they didn't try to cut it", and your basis is that they didn't use any big named technique. However, Kin'emon didn't use any fancy technique this time around either to cut Kaido. He just stabbed him normally using armament haki.

How were Zoro and Kin'emon holding the cage back? With the edge of their swords clearly imbued with haki. If they could cut the birdcage as easily as they cut Kaido's skin, the threads would have been cut through their haki without even trying just by pushing the haki imbued edges against them.

The thead wasn't cut, and Zoro had no other feat to say "he could have cut it but decided not to". Oda could have easily thought of an excuse to make Zoro not want to cut it but he didn't, because there was no need, because he couldn't.

So the options that I see here are still the same as they were in my original post:
1- The birdcage is indeed more durable than Kaido.
2- Kin'emon learned ryo after that scene so he would now be capable of cutting the bircage.
3- This is just an inconsistency from Oda.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 7, 2020 ---

I understand. As far as I can tell, the basis of this discussion surrounds how the scabbards cut Kaido the strongest and why they couldn't cut a birdcage. Happy to be corrected.

If that's the case, ideally, spoiler tags would have been used since this topic was brought up in the last day.

I heavily encourage the use of spoiler tags for Power Levels during the 24-hr spoiler rule. It helps the spoiler/chapter thread stay on topic, and allows discussions like the birdcage one to occur here.

To be fair some of the comments like my last one do have spoilers while others didn't. It's a pain for you to have to read through all of them so just covering the whole conversation was efficient enough since you're correct on the basis of the discussion. I'd say there were some other mentions of Kaido relating to his durability to swords on page 343.

 

[Brandish μ]

My bad, if it's just the birdcage situation in isolation you can un-spoiler.

The birdcage was just a big plot device to me. It's impressive, but not something I feel helps with power levels.

 

[M3J]

My bad, if it's just the birdcage situation in isolation you can un-spoiler.

The birdcage was just a big plot device to me. It's impressive, but not something I feel helps with power levels.

Agreed, the whole birdcage thing made no sense and shouldn't be used to determine anything. Like, no one as far as I recall tried cutting the strings, they just tried pushing it.

 

[King Moe]

Are we really back to this again -.-? Geez, we all know Doflamingo was too much a threat to be beaten as didn't he own Kinemon in same arc? His abilities is beyond than what they show in the arc. No one could beat him except Luffy alone.

Birdcage is more than 'plot stuff' as it shows anyone couldn't really get passed it at all in cutting it except Luffy and Law (His DF ability and knowing Doffy's powers beforehand), so it make sense why Zoro and others were unable to destroy it as doubt Doffy's strings can't be broken with ease if cutting with Haki was enough. Just shows they were outmatch as even with Oda with all swordsmen around (except Fujitora due to WG reasons), they didn't have power to cut it down and was simple the case and plus we could say Kinemon trained to gain to the level and prepare since after all they prepare for awhile on facing Kaido, so no proof on they were holding back or could do it even back then. Wouldn't even make sense how he lost to Law in PH if he was stronger than he looks to hurt Kaido.

Can be intercepted on them getting to that level now more than they always knew and to say Zoro did is pushing it by far when he taking backhand on many opponents he struggle with lately especially what Wano showing that he couldn't finish Gifters coming his way despite with Enma. Writing speaks on situation of cases and timeframe since then.

Let's move on from this talk to something else instead of 'someone's' headcanon over the reality of the situation please?

 

[albertwv]

Doflamingo was stronger than Dressrosa Zolo, Law, Kinemo, and yes even Sabo.
You can argue that Sabo had his hands full with Fujitora or Burgess but honestly, I dont see Sabo defeating Fujitora and he easily defeated Burgess why didnt he just go help Luffy. Also, Doffy was the bigger threat than Fujitora or Burgess because of Birdcage.

 

[Fox666]

Agreed, the whole birdcage thing made no sense and shouldn't be used to determine anything. Like, no one as far as I recall tried cutting the strings, they just tried pushing it.

Of course they tried to cut the Bird Cage

We saw Zoro attacking it, then refusing to believe it was impossible to stop

I think at this point it's obvious that the Bird Cage is impossible to destroy, since not even an Admiral could do anything about it, and the only way to take it down is knocking out Doflamingo.

 

[M3J]

Unsure because that picture doesn't show Zoro trying to cut it, just that he hit the strings somehow and the next panel with him trying to push the strings back with the broad sides of his blades. How do we know they didn't just assume it was impossible to cut through the strings when that could have worked better than dropped a meteor or buildings standing in its way?

 

[Fox666]

Unsure because that picture doesn't show Zoro trying to cut it, just that he hit the strings somehow and the next panel with him trying to push the strings back with the broad sides of his blades. How do we know they didn't just assume it was impossible to cut through the strings when that could have worked better than dropped a meteor or buildings standing in its way?

Zoro is standing a few buildings away from the Bird Cage, so he must have used some long-ranged attack. Also I'm quite sure Zoro is pushing with the sharp side of the sword.

Why would the characters assume it was impossible? That's unusual for One Piece world. The swordsmen try to cut anything. If they say it's impossible to cut, it must mean they tested it.

 

[nik87]

Of course they tried to cut the Bird Cage

We saw Zoro attacking it, then refusing to believe it was impossible to stop

I think at this point it's obvious that the Bird Cage is impossible to destroy, since not even an Admiral could do anything about it, and the only way to take it down is knocking out Doflamingo.

All you have to do is read. Read what Kinemon said to Zoro in the panel you yourself provided. It should be clear. Or not...

Edit: Official translation has it even bolded out, for those who have trouble getting it...

Spoiler: push it baby, push it