One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Shasha23]

Tatsumaki is just a bunch of slashes flying around a given area.... Katakuri doesn't have doesn't have to dodge the whole thing, just the slashes coming his way. It's more similar to gear 2 than 3 in that regard.

Yes he will have to dodge but he wont be able to make those type of attacks pass right throw him, and again Katakuri wasn't able to make G3 pass throw him, he had to dodge or counter since the punch is bigger than him

 

[Nie Li]

Total different and not best example your using and again your making Sanji vs Zoro talk when we discussing about Zoro and how he fights. Your insecurities are showing more when you always first person to bring Sanji to try to demeen into a S vs Z talk now between us. Please stop doing that if you want me to see you as serious debator. Also interesting fact, Sanji is actually skill in using weapons as shown during his fight with Wanze during Enies Lobby. So could be he can be skill as Zoro as he did cut Wanze's food body down with ease similar how Zoro would do. So yeah he will have no problem wielding a weapon from how that fight shows and given more knowledge since Zeff and Judge trained him how to use knife or sword respectively in his childhood.

Please let's not bring S vs Z and get back on it only Zoro unless you can't handle if someone talk about strengths and faults on a character you have to bring someone in to make it debate fight between characters. I rather not get off topic if that is alright with you. Also why are you responding to posts I made to someone else? Do you want stay on topic or go into something more as your getting out of hand on keeping one subject at a time here.

I was going to keep debating the santouryu but you really cross too many lines. I'll stick to answering what really needs answering and stop bothering. Please take what I say in a constructive way.

No. I never said anything about S vs Z on this conversation. It was neither off topic nor an attack on Sanji nor even a comparison between Sanji and Zoro, don't twist my words. Once again and for the last time: Please really read what's been said to you. I don't mind if we don't agree on things, but if you're gonna willingly misinterpret my arguments this becomes pointless. I used Sanji as an absurd example of your own logic to try to make you understand what you're saying about Zoro doesn't make sense and contradicts direct logic from the manga. That being skilled in one particular thing doesn't mean you're equally skilled in everything else. I hoped that, seeing that logic applied to Sanji, you'd understand the fault in your logic, I clearly failed at that, that is all.

Who hasn't state that? Look at Nik87, Shasha, Afro, etc. as some of them stated that Zoro will be major one to hurt Kaido first or with Luffy to able to harm him only in theories when he got Enma since. Please don't tell me you never heard any of that here or somewhere. They even goes as far Zoro will solo and beat Kaido just for having that weapon. I am just saying they are now debunk given what Scabbards just did and how it looks it be team-up fights to take him down in the end. Zoro still have nothing to get involve in this as again he doesn't face his captain's fights for him if he wants to face them himself. We seen this many times in many main antagonists of each arc. Only one you can say is Hody, but he wasn't defeated overall and Zoro got capture by him while not bother by fight with Zoro later when he face Luffy. I am just stating factor on how people should stop thinking on theories like that especially thinking Zoro above Luffy, so Idk why your taking offense to statement unless your like that as well. Zoro obviously will get his moments in the war, but after Kaido, he will not given how he been in fighting performance lately. You have think logical, not overhype to the moon to suggest he outdo Luffy especially beating his own main opponent.

That is not how a debate works.
Others, in previous conversations, when the manga wasn't on the current chapter, said those things? That's fair, but I pointed out that you twisted literally everything the person you quoted was saying, sentence by sentence, and that's not valid. Argue what they are telling now, not what "they said two weeks ago and has nothing to do with their current statements".

Anyway, stay well.

 

[King Moe]

Yes, WP because WP is only time when author himself has touched on the topic of Zoro vs Luffy, everything else is headcanon.
We will see once Wano has concluded and their limits shown, who stands where. There is 0 reason to admit Luffy being stronger when Scabbards do more damage to Kaido that G4 Luffy and the boss of Scabbards was shitting himself when he saw Zoro ripping stone mountain...
Show me Oda stating that in interviews and databooks, if you can that is. I know that you cant but try regardless.

What you concluded from my statements is your problem, I said plenty of times that nobody can solo Kaido. Keep your headcanons in check.
Luffy will not let Zoro anything, Zoro doesnt need to ask his permission for anything. He will have to rely on Zoro fighting his battle since he himself is not effective vs Kaido. I look forward to those fodder opponents for Zoro. Zoro should get the same backseat like in Wano more often.

Enma has a mind of its own only in the fantasy of yours. There is no power buff that you are speaking of. Neither Apoo nor Gifters could keep him away from going to Kaido. What else you got? Again the delusions with Enma soloing credible foe? You lost it... What do you want to bet that it will not be Luffy to defeat Kaido and it will be Zoro instead? Looks like you are sure, a small bet shouldnt be something that would scare you?

He address more later and even outside of it stating Zoro is under Luffy and that is from his own words. Trying to denied it or show there isn't evidence is pure ignorance and you know it. You got zero backing on Luffy that he isn't stronger and no evidence to support Zoro how and why he is above him to boot. Luffy is stronger than them especially over Zoro who got to retreat by Apoo and then couldn't get past Gifters without help, so stop with fantasies you want push from your headcannon. Luffy over Zoro anyday of the week and that is canon fact.

You said he will take on Kaido and behead him, so your are saying he can solo Kaido which is not true and nor will he even do anything of that to cut off his head either. You don't go from struggling with Gifters to solo Yonko when you have poor stats around to prove your on that level. Luffy will rely on his powers, not on Zoro to do the job in hurting Kaido which is never true at all Zoro can do that. Yeah he does as he never fight main antagonist without his permission with Luffy around, so sorry, but your argument have nothing to stand on that nor nothing push on Zoro facing major antagonist and push to that in any of the arcs at all.

Show Enma feats him beaten credible foe as so far battles he has Enma is him running away from Apoo and he couldn't plow through Gifters without allies coming to help him, so again your headcannon doesn't match the canon, so stop with rewind stating he can just because of your imagination, not what manga says about how he is. I don't mind betting, but knowing you and Shasha, you guys don't keep your word, so why bet when you guys are known liars on keeping your word when your wrong. You haven't even told me you were wrong when I told you early in the arc that Zoro will get knockout and lose his sword in upcoming chapters, but you instead debated notion that didn't happen despite that now canon theory I told you about.

We can bet once you can be man of your word on admitting your faults in your arguments.

 

[kkck]

Yes he will have to dodge but he wont be able to make those type of attacks pass right throw him, and again Katakuri wasn't able to make G3 pass throw him, he had to dodge or counter since the punch is bigger than him

Why? There is nothing about that attack that would make it complicated for katakuri to simply dodge. And why is the gear 3 part relevant?

 

[King Moe]

I was going to keep debating the santouryu but you really cross too many lines. I'll stick to answering what really needs answering and stop bothering. Please take what I say in a constructive way.

No. I never said anything about S vs Z on this conversation. It was neither off topic nor an attack on Sanji nor even a comparison between Sanji and Zoro, don't twist my words. Once again and for the last time: Please really read what's been said to you. I don't mind if we don't agree on things, but if you're gonna willingly misinterpret my arguments this becomes pointless. I used Sanji as an absurd example of your own logic to try to make you understand what you're saying about Zoro doesn't make sense and contradicts direct logic from the manga. That being skilled in one particular thing doesn't mean you're equally skilled in everything else. I hoped that, seeing that logic applied to Sanji, you'd understand the fault in your logic, I clearly failed at that, that is all.


That is not how a debate works.
Others, in previous conversations, when the manga wasn't on the current chapter, said those things? That's fair, but I pointed out that you twisted literally everything the person you quoted was saying, sentence by sentence, and that's not valid. Argue what they are telling now, not what "they said two weeks ago and has nothing to do with their current statements".

Anyway, stay well.

Agree to Disagree as you can't force someone to change if your going the way you are and bring in Sanji into conversation when I never mention him once. Your pushing notion you think I am making S vs Z when I am just talking about Zoro and Zoro on his swordsmanship, NOTHING (Emphasizing) to do about Sanji. Not every post I do has something to do with Sanji like how you keep inserting each time we debate unless Sanji Thread we were debating before. I have read what you post, but please got stop adding more quotes from my posts to others and bring in out of topic stuff like Sanji into it. It's one thing to say as example, but it seems like when we debate every time you bring Sanji as your early example each time when it has nothing to do about him. I can respect if you example in respectful way, but your trying to push it like it's all about S vs Z. I am not all about that nor I care for that. Let's keep it one character unless example is respectful, but not about who better than who display.

Nothing I stated contradicts nor stated wrong as already admit Zoro is skill and favors 3 sword style, but just saying it's his skill that is most important, and be fine even without that style and can switch up for the others since he was trained from childhood to be good on each style, not just one.

That is how debate works as if you been saying even days ago or recently, and then next chapter shows you are wrong, that how it get started. You should up on a theory and don't expect to be call out for making such outlandish theory thinking it be 100% true. We aren't Oda, so don't bet on it thinking it will happen as latest chapter still shows Oda is unpredictable and many were shock Scabbards could hurt Kaido even me. So it push things in new perspectives on how fights can go and how Kaido could fall which takes away theories around thinking only Luffy will damage him as there be others alike for example, but no doubt he be one that does most and will defeat Kaido in the end.

You too. Be good on your end.

 

[Nie Li]

If I understand Katakuri's character correctly, his "weakness" really is that his DF is a paramecia and not a logia, so while he can deform, he can't really become intangible nor split his body; his body must always remain connected in one single piece (although he can shoot out mochi-body parts, they stop being part of him.
So in that sense he really would have to move around a lot to dodge attacks of the nature of Zoro's flying slashes instead of just letting the attack go through him, but I think he would just block the attacks with his trident. We didn't see his weapon break under any of Luffy's G4 attacks, right? It should withstand Zoro's slashes so no need to dodge his AoE attacks.

 

[nik87]

He address more later and even outside of it stating Zoro is under Luffy and that is from his own words. Trying to denied it or show there isn't evidence is pure ignorance and you know it. You got zero backing on Luffy that he isn't stronger and no evidence to support Zoro how and why he is above him to boot. Luffy is stronger than them especially over Zoro who got to retreat by Apoo and then couldn't get past Gifters without help, so stop with fantasies you want push from your headcannon. Luffy over Zoro anyday of the week and that is canon fact.

You said he will take on Kaido and behead him, so your are saying he can solo Kaido which is not true and nor will he even do anything of that to cut off his head either. You don't go from struggling with Gifters to solo Yonko when you have poor stats around to prove your on that level. Luffy will rely on his powers, not on Zoro to do the job in hurting Kaido which is never true at all Zoro can do that. Yeah he does as he never fight main antagonist without his permission with Luffy around, so sorry, but your argument have nothing to stand on that nor nothing push on Zoro facing major antagonist and push to that in any of the arcs at all.

Show Enma feats him beaten credible foe as so far battles he has Enma is him running away from Apoo and he couldn't plow through Gifters without allies coming to help him, so again your headcannon doesn't match the canon, so stop with rewind stating he can just because of your imagination, not what manga says about how he is. I don't mind betting, but knowing you and Shasha, you guys don't keep your word, so why bet when you guys are known liars on keeping your word when your wrong. You haven't even told me you were wrong when I told you early in the arc that Zoro will get knockout and lose his sword in upcoming chapters, but you instead debated notion that didn't happen despite that now canon theory I told you about.

We can bet once you can be man of your word on admitting your faults in your arguments.

You talk a lot without backing anything of it...
Quote me where I said Zoro would solo Kaido? Nothing.
Quote where Oda placed Zoro below Luffy in magazines and whatever? Nothing.
Show Kyoshiro besting Zoro? Nothing.
Show allies helping him vs Gifters? Nothing.
Show Zoro asking for Luffy's permission? Nothing.

What Enma feats are you talking about? Do you realize that Zoro didnt have a proper fight ever since he got Enma? What delusional feats are you expecting?
What is going on in that fantasy of yours? You gotta explain it because I am losing you in all of that headcanon...

I was wrong because Zoro was knocked out? I was never wrong because Zoro was never knocked out.
Lost his sword? I dont care about that, never made a prediction about anything else other than PL related stuff.
I debated notion that didnt happen? Quote me again but let me guess. Nothing?
Are you able to prove anything you spoke of?

Tatsumaki is just a bunch of slashes flying around a given area...

It is one big slash.

 

[kkck]

If I understand Katakuri's character correctly, his "weakness" really is that his DF is a paramecia and not a logia, so while he can deform, he can't really become intangible nor split his body; his body must always remain connected in one single piece (although he can shoot out mochi-body parts, they stop being part of him.
So in that sense he really would have to move around a lot to dodge attacks of the nature of Zoro's flying slashes instead of just letting the attack go through him, but I think he would just block the attacks with his trident. We didn't see his weapon break under any of Luffy's G4 attacks, right? It should withstand Zoro's slashes so no need to dodge his AoE attacks.

Katakuri's fruit is a special paramecia. In practice it behaves exactly like a logis. He can create and manipulate mochi and is also actually intangible like a logia. As far as i understand this, though i might be wrong, Katakuri difers from a logia in that he isn't a force of nature of sorts. Katakuri even uses a technique where the inside of him arm explodes and his fist rockets towards the enemy.... that's not something he could achieve without his fruit behaving like a logia.

 

[Shasha23]

Why? There is nothing about that attack that would make it complicated for katakuri to simply dodge. And why is the gear 3 part relevant?

Katakuri has already shown he has to dodge or counter attacks like that, i gave you examples of G3, he has to dodge or counter it while he didnt care about G2 attacks.
Go back reread WCI starting from when Luffy dealt with candy maiden, any attack smaller than his body he would simply let it pass throw him but that was not the case for G3 since its size allowed Luffy to grab him, and soon after that all of Luffy's G3 attacks Katakuri had to counter or dodge them since he couldn't let them pass throw him since they would deal him damage, Dont forget Katakuri is not a logia and even the slightest hit on his mochi body would deal him damage that why he didnt try his shapeshifting ability on those attacks.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2020 ---

Katakuri's fruit is a special paramecia. In practice it behaves exactly like a logis. He can create and manipulate mochi and is also actually intangible like a logia. As far as i understand this, though i might be wrong, Katakuri difers from a logia in that he isn't a force of nature of sorts. Katakuri even uses a technique where the inside of him arm explodes and his fist rockets towards the enemy.... that's not something he could achieve without his fruit behaving like a logia.

That is incorrect, Katakuri used his CoO to predict attacks and make space for them to pass throw his body, he even explained it.

 

[King Moe]

You talk a lot without backing anything of it...
Quote me where I said Zoro would solo Kaido? Nothing.
Quote where Oda placed Zoro below Luffy in magazines and whatever? Nothing.
Show Kyoshiro besting Zoro? Nothing.
Show allies helping him vs Gifters? Nothing.
Show Zoro asking for Luffy's permission? Nothing.

What Enma feats are you talking about? Do you realize that Zoro didnt have a proper fight ever since he got Enma? What delusional feats are you expecting?
What is going on in that fantasy of yours? You gotta explain it because I am losing you in all of that headcanon...

I was wrong because Zoro was knocked out? I was never wrong because Zoro was never knocked out.
Lost his sword? I dont care about that, never made a prediction about anything else other than PL related stuff.
I debated notion that didnt happen? Quote me again but let me guess. Nothing?
Are you able to prove anything you spoke of?


It is one big slash.

Look above in your posts, your saying them all even now about it on going after Kaido and saying he stronger than Luffy. I back my side already as your doing it for me by how you post, but you back nothing against mine own posts so far on your stances. Also for rest of your claims, I already prove you wrong and your clearly ignoring them without debating against. I just show you Kyoshiro vs Zoro and you think he didn't best him? Again, if your not going to admit when your wrong, not going to waste time someone who is using headcannon over canon to ignore the reality of things.

He came with Enma with Apoo and Gifters and look what happen. Are you saying he refuse to use them in those fights as he did already at start of war when invading an Beast Pirates ship with the others. Again nothing shown anything Zoro is stronger than he is if he is having trouble with Apoo and unable to pass through Gifters by himself. If you got nothing to show, then you proven nothing on any of your accounts.

He fainted and your knockout when you faint like that for days and he did lose his sword as didn't Gyukimaro took it? Where he got Shusui back? He never did and had to let it go. So yeah you didn't admit fault on that, so not going to believe you will now with how your acting against everyone who stating your faults in your arguments. Come back when you got evidence to show I was wrong on my areas as he proven nothing just like Zoro vs Katakuri argument you think he can easily beat him with no proof XD.

 

[kkck]

Katakuri has already shown he has to dodge or counter attacks like that, i gave you examples of G3, he has to dodge or counter it while he didnt care about G2 attacks.
Go back reread WCI starting from when Luffy dealt with candy maiden, any attack smaller than his body he would simply let it pass throw him but that was not the case for G3 since its size allowed Luffy to grab him, and soon after that all of Luffy's G3 attacks Katakuri had to counter or dodge them since he couldn't let them pass throw him since they would deal him damage, Dont forget Katakuri is not a logia and even the slightest hit on his mochi body would deal him damage that why he didnt try his shapeshifting ability on those attacks.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2020 ---

That is incorrect, Katakuri used his CoO to predict attacks and make space for them to pass throw his body, he even explained it.

The tornado is not like gear 3. A single gear 3 fist is basically a huge lump thrown katakuri's way. But the tornado is not a lump of anything. To me it makes no sense that it would be a single slash but even if it was that only makes things easier for katakuri. Katakuri doesn't need to avoid the tornado altogether, he simply has to avoid the one big slash it is made out of. A slash can be long but it is invariably extremely thin, as it is basically a flying blade.

Katakuri did use to hi CoO for that but that doesn't mean he isn't logia like. If anything that works because he is logia like. Without being logia like he couldn't have tricked people into thinking he couldn't be hit even with haki. Katakuri IS intangible like a logia.

 

[Nie Li]

Katakuri's fruit is a special paramecia. In practice it behaves exactly like a logis. He can create and manipulate mochi and is also actually intangible like a logia. As far as i understand this, though i might be wrong, Katakuri difers from a logia in that he isn't a force of nature of sorts. Katakuri even uses a technique where the inside of him arm explodes and his fist rockets towards the enemy.... that's not something he could achieve without his fruit behaving like a logia.

We need the manga to clarify it a little more so we can really be sure of who's right here, since neither I am sure of what I'm saying on this particular topic, but, did Katakuri control any of the parts he shot off his body like his hand? If he didn't, I think his fruit is just a mix of a Luffy-kind of Paramecia and a Mr.3-kind of paramecia.
I don't remember the fight in detail but if he did control any part of his body that he had previously severed and wasn't in contact with his body, then yeah, he can dodge Zoro's slashes like a logia would even if Zoro uses armament haki.

As I understood it from when his fruit was named, one of the things it differs from a logia is that a logia can be used to automatically avoid damage, even subconsciously for strong logia users like the original admirals and without any effort, while Katakuri has to actively control and change the shape of his body to let the attacks pass through. As in, thanks to his CoO he willingly re-shapes himself to avoid touching the attack with minimum movement instead of the attack just literally passing through him as would be the case with a logia. It looks the same but the procedure is very different. But now that I think of it, you're right in that this doesn't mean that he can't willingly cut himself in half and just reassemble afterwards, but, if he can, it would take more mental effort/coordination with his mochi fruit than with a logia.

 

[Shasha23]

The tornado is not like gear 3. A single gear 3 fist is basically a huge lump thrown katakuri's way. But the tornado is not a lump of anything. To me it makes no sense that it would be a single slash but even if it was that only makes things easier for katakuri. Katakuri doesn't need to avoid the tornado altogether, he simply has to avoid the one big slash it is made out of. A slash can be long but it is invariably extremely thin, as it is basically a flying blade.

Katakuri did use to hi CoO for that but that doesn't mean he isn't logia like. If anything that works because he is logia like. Without being logia like he couldn't have tricked people into thinking he couldn't be hit even with haki. Katakuri IS intangible like a logia.

There are other attacks not just tatsumaki!
No he would have to dodge or find a way to block it, since kokujo o tatsumaki lasts a long time and was shown to follow the person its aimed at, tatsumaki is a tornado that is made of enough force that even metal will be sliced to piece from it, Katakuri can't just shape shift from it since the attack follows and last a long time, he would need to properly dodge or block it somehow.

He was never logia like, the only logia thing about him is that he can reshape his body, even if he turned to mochi he would still take damage unlike logia who you would need haki to damage, just look at Luffy's casual punch and kick that did a number on him,i think you are seriously confused about Katakuri's ability that's why you are making bad calls.

Dude Katakuri was shown explaining that the reason why he doesn't get hit is because he sees the future and makes holes in his body where the attacks would have landed,logias don't have to do that, Katakuri was never intangible that's why hakiless Luffy could damage him

 

[kkck]

We need the manga to clarify it a little more so we can really be sure of who's right here, since neither I am sure of what I'm saying on this particular topic, but, did Katakuri control any of the parts he shot off his body like his hand? If he didn't, I think his fruit is just a mix of a Luffy-kind of Paramecia and a Mr.3-kind of paramecia.
I don't remember the fight in detail but if he did control any part of his body that he had previously severed and wasn't in contact with his body, then yeah, he can dodge Zoro's slashes like a logia would even if Zoro uses armament haki.

As I understood it from when his fruit was named, one of the things it differs from a logia is that a logia can be used to automatically avoid damage, even subconsciously for strong logia users like the original admirals and without any effort, while Katakuri has to actively control and change the shape of his body to let the attacks pass through. As in, thanks to his CoO he willingly re-shapes himself to avoid touching the attack with minimum movement instead of the attack just literally passing through him as would be the case with a logia. It looks the same but the procedure is very different. But now that I think of it, you're right in that this doesn't mean that he can't willingly cut himself in half and just reassemble afterwards, but, if he can, it would take more mental effort/coordination with his mochi fruit than with a logia.

He shot of his right hand like a missile using an explosion within his mochi. That's not something he could do if his fruit functioned like a paramecia. since he'd be straight up blowing up his arm. And he used a doughnut like mochi thing to sort of conjure arms which had haki imbued onto them. that's pretty solid evidence that his fruit functions like a logia.

Logias are not necessarily that automatic. That much I would argue depends on skill, circumstances and plot...

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2020 ---

There are other attacks not just tatsumaki!
No he would have to dodge or find a way to block it, since kokujo o tatsumaki lasts a long time and was shown to follow the person its aimed at, tatsumaki is a tornado that is made of enough force that even metal will be sliced to piece from it, Katakuri can't just shape shift from it since the attack follows and last a long time, he would need to properly dodge or block it somehow.

He was never logia like, the only logia thing about him is that he can reshape his body, even if he turned to mochi he would still take damage unlike logia who you would need haki to damage, just look at Luffy's casual punch and kick that did a number on him,i think you are seriously confused about Katakuri's ability that's why you are making bad calls.

Dude Katakuri was shown explaining that the reason why he doesn't get hit is because he sees the future and makes holes in his body where the attacks would have landed,logias don't have to do that, Katakuri was never intangible that's why hakiless Luffy could damage him

Tatsumaki lasting a long time is a non issue. Katakuri has it in him to precisely dodge a barage of attacks from gear 2 and boundman...Gear 2 is pretty fast even at that level and boundman was enough to speedblitz doflamingo consistently. Ultimately there is nothing about swords which makes them particularly complicated for katakuri to simply dodge with his haki and fruit. Either the swordsman is fast enough to overcome katakuri's reflexes or he isn't.

Well, no katakuri was never a logia. The manga has his as a special paramecia. but he can create mochi, has intangibility and can control foreign mochi. And.... when luffy did hit him he was absolutely using haki.

Logias absolutely have to do what katakuri did to take advantage of their intangibility. in the new world a logia that takes a hit willy nilly simply takes the hit. haki overcomes a logias intangibility after all and in the new world any jackass has haki. There are no instances of hakiless luffy hitting katakuri....

 

[Nie Li]

He shot of his right hand like a missile using an explosion within his mochi. That's not something he could do if his fruit functioned like a paramecia. since he'd be straight up blowing up his arm. And he used a doughnut like mochi thing to sort of conjure arms which had haki imbued onto them. that's pretty solid evidence that his fruit functions like a logia.

Logias are not necessarily that automatic. That much I would argue depends on skill, circumstances and plot...

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2020 ---

Tatsumaki lasting a long time is a non issue. Katakuri has it in him to precisely dodge a barage of attacks from gear 2 and boundman...Gear 2 is pretty fast even at that level and boundman was enough to speedblitz doflamingo consistently. Ultimately there is nothing about swords which makes them particularly complicated for katakuri to simply dodge with his haki and fruit. Either the swordsman is fast enough to overcome katakuri's reflexes or he isn't.

Well, no katakuri was never a logia. The manga has his as a special paramecia. but he can create mochi, has intangibility and can control foreign mochi. And.... when luffy did hit him he was absolutely using haki.

Logias absolutely have to do what katakuri did to take advantage of their intangibility. in the new world a logia that takes a hit willy nilly simply takes the hit. haki overcomes a logias intangibility after all and in the new world any jackass has haki. There are no instances of hakiless luffy hitting katakuri....

This is really a difficult topic.

I don't remember Luffy hitting Katakuri without haki so I'm with you on that one, and it is true that previous events in the manga like Akainu dodging haki-imbued attacks from Marco and Vista by seemingly just letting them pass through as if they didn't contain haki could be explained by a similar CoO technique to what Katakuri uses.

But if Katakuri's fruit really acted 100% like a logia there would be no reason for it not to be one instead of it being a paramecia, and it feels weird that he did explain his fruit as if he only "faked" intangibility through CoO. It did sound like he could not let any attack through without that process.

Is mochi not being found in nature enough of a reason for a fruit being a paramecia instead of a logia? There are paramecias that could be considered forces of nature despite being paramecia, so it feels weird that's the criteria when the common element usually is just whether they've intangibility or not, with Yami Yami no mi being an exception (and being pointed out as the only logia that didn't act like a logia).

Take for example Pica's DF, "manipulating and molding rocks and merging with them", rocks are found in nature just as much as light or ice, but it's a paramecia because it provides no intangibility. Or "weight" (Miss Valentine fruit), or the noro noro particles (Foxy's fruit), they're all forces of nature but paramecias because of their applications.



So what I think is that you're right on logias in the NW using similar techniques to what Katakuri did to fight against haki users, but it still feels like Katakuri has to do that elaborated process even against normal attacks, or his fruit would just be a logia.

 

[Fox666]

He was never logia like, the only logia thing about him is that he can reshape his body, even if he turned to mochi he would still take damage unlike logia who you would need haki to damage, just look at Luffy's casual punch and kick that did a number on him,i think you are seriously confused about Katakuri's ability that's why you are making bad calls.

Dude Katakuri was shown explaining that the reason why he doesn't get hit is because he sees the future and makes holes in his body where the attacks would have landed,logias don't have to do that, Katakuri was never intangible that's why hakiless Luffy could damage him

What are you talking about? Katakuri is exactly like a Logia, except he's not an element of nature.

Luffy explained how Katakuri changed the shape of his body to avoid attacks with Haki. Aokiji did the same against Whitebeard.

Here's an example of how Katakuri doesn't get hurt even if he doesn't change the shape of his body to avoid the attack:

 

[kkck]

This is really a difficult topic.

I don't remember Luffy hitting Katakuri without haki so I'm with you on that one, and it is true that previous events in the manga like Akainu dodging haki-imbued attacks from Marco and Vista by seemingly just letting them pass through as if they didn't contain haki could be explained by a similar CoO technique to what Katakuri uses.

But if Katakuri's fruit really acted 100% like a logia there would be no reason for it not to be one instead of it being a paramecia, and it feels weird that he did explain his fruit as if he only "faked" intangibility through CoO. It did sound like he could not let any attack through without that process.

Is mochi not being found in nature enough of a reason for a fruit being a paramecia instead of a logia? There are paramecias that could be considered forces of nature despite being paramecia, so it feels weird that's the criteria when the common element usually is just whether they've intangibility or not, with Yami Yami no mi being an exception (and being pointed out as the only logia that didn't act like a logia).

Take for example Pica's DF, "manipulating and molding rocks and merging with them", rocks are found in nature just as much as light or ice, but it's a paramecia because it provides no intangibility. Or "weight" (Miss Valentine fruit), or the noro noro particles (Foxy's fruit), they're all forces of nature but paramecias because of their applications.



So what I think is that you're right on logias in the NW using similar techniques to what Katakuri did to fight against haki users, but it still feels like Katakuri has to do that elaborated process even against normal attacks, or his fruit would just be a logia.

That's why I said earlier that it probably is considered a paramecia because the fruit is mochi, something not found in nature. Even according to the wiki logia translates to "nature system". And for that matter paramecia translates to "superhuman system" and zoan to "animal system". We don't have much information about this of course but to me this remains the most reasonable explanation until oda chips in.

In a way he did fake it though. He made his enemies believe that he can't be hit even with haki.

Pica's fruit provides no intangibility and also does not allow him to turn into a rock (outside of fusing with rocks) and it also does not allow him to generate rocks. Pica's fruit is powerful but he lacks important logia associated powers.

 

[Nie Li]

What are you talking about? Katakuri is exactly like a Logia, except he's not an element of nature.

Luffy explained how Katakuri changed the shape of his body to avoid attacks with Haki. Aokiji did the same against Whitebeard.

Here's an example of how Katakuri doesn't get hurt even if he doesn't change the shape of his body to avoid the attack:

No logia works like the picture you posted, though.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2020 ---

That looks more like when someone shoots Luffy, if anything.

 

[Fox666]

No logia works like the picture you posted, though.

That looks more like when someone shoots Luffy, if anything.

Caribou

 

[Nie Li]

That's why I said earlier that it probably is considered a paramecia because the fruit is mochi, something not found in nature. Even according to the wiki logia translates to "nature system". And for that matter paramecia translates to "superhuman system" and zoan to "animal system". We don't have much information about this of course but to me this remains the most reasonable explanation until oda chips in.

In a way he did fake it though. He made his enemies believe that he can't be hit even with haki.

Pica's fruit provides no intangibility and also does not allow him to turn into a rock (outside of fusing with rocks) and it also does not allow him to generate rocks. Pica's fruit is powerful but he lacks important logia associated powers.

That's my point. I see that Logias are about "associated powers". If the category was just "elements found in nature", those paramecias I mentioned should be considered logias. If Katakuri really had the associated powers of a logia, he would be a logia even if he's mochi. It just happens that he makes use of the malleability of his body and his advanced CoO to "make it look like a logia".