One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Ramen]

When potential to be next Garp is so strong

According to who he has this potential?

 

[albertwv]

Smoker is strong but has been fodderized by NW standards and it is a shame since he is a well liked character. Oda did him no justice just like he has with many of the characters. But saying Smoker is top 40 or 50 is overestimating him.
Vergo vs PH Sanji, will always be Vergo winning. First of all, Vergo was not even trying, you can argue that Sanji was weakened because of Nami, but Vergo was able to damage his legs, which Sanji himself notes right after the fight. Also, Vergo is a tank machine able to fight Sanji, Law, and Smoker and still be confident enough to beat Law. He took serious damage vs Law and Smoker. Yet, he didn't even use his Haki or Bamboo versus Sanji, he wasnt taking Sanji seriously. That there is enough evidence to tell you the winner.

Zolo vs Hawkins... Hawkins wouldve lost his REAL life if the fight kept going, also Zolo only took damaged because he defended Luffy and Tama from the nails attack, but hey Zolo is a tank machine that was nothing to him.

Zolo vs Apoo... this is ridiculous to think Apoo > Zolo. If you think just because Apoo managed to bring Zolo down to his knees makes Apoo superior and Zolo weak, you are wrong. By that logic then Apoo >>>Luffy since he knocked out Luffy. See how dumb that sounds.

Zolo vs Killer.... Zolo got distracted by Gyukimaru who tried to stab him in the back while he was fighting another Supernova. Zolo was able to tank Killer's attack and counter attack him and knocking Killer out. YES, Zolo did faint. But he still won the fight. Plus it was obvious it was for PLOT reasons.

Zolo vs Denjiro.... it was a stalemate, plus Denjiro didnt know Zolo was an ally at the time. OR if you can prove that Denjiro knew Zolo was an ally and purposefully went easy on Zolo, then sure give the win to Denjiro although, both werent going Full Power.

AND finally you really think Sanji will fight King because of "aerial fight" LOL. When has Sanji fought someone because of reasons like that, If anything it has been proven plenty of times that Luffy will fight the main villain, then Zolo the 2nd strongest, and Sanji the 3rd strongest. So if Oda decides to keep that formula, then Zolo will fight King and Sanji will fight Queen.

 

[M3J]

Vergo vs PH Sanji, will always be Vergo winning. First of all, Vergo was not even trying, you can argue that Sanji was weakened because of Nami, but Vergo was able to damage his legs, which Sanji himself notes right after the fight. Also, Vergo is a tank machine able to fight Sanji, Law, and Smoker and still be confident enough to beat Law. He took serious damage vs Law and Smoker. Yet, he didn't even use his Haki or Bamboo versus Sanji, he wasnt taking Sanji seriously. That there is enough evidence to tell you the winner.

we can do this all day long, but Sanji despite saying his legs were damaged was still able to move like nothing happened soon afterwards. He vs. Vergo was a short skirmish where both chose not to finish it due to more important things. There really is no evidence, especially since he wasn't really taking Law seriously either.

Plus, wasn't it implied Smoker was going easy? He's been pretty weak post-timeskip so far.

 

[Nie Li]

I don't see Jimbei and Zoro very up there of 30 top stronger characters. especially Zoro after his performance. That just disrespectful.

Why does Zoro's performance bother you so much and yet you are adamant on saying that Smoker's last shown performance doesn't matter "because he's destined to be stronger"?

 

[albertwv]

we can do this all day long, but Sanji despite saying his legs were damaged was still able to move like nothing happened soon afterwards. He vs. Vergo was a short skirmish where both chose not to finish it due to more important things. There really is no evidence, especially since he wasn't really taking Law seriously either.

Plus, wasn't it implied Smoker was going easy? He's been pretty weak post-timeskip so far.

Here is the panel where Vergo easily cracks Sanji's leg bone. Remember, Sanji's strength comes from his legs, that is his specialty.

And this clearly shows Sanji saying to himself that if he kept fighting Vergo it wouldnt go well, implying Vergo was stronger. Sanji's legs were damaged from that fight. Vergo wasn't even going serious at all, we know this because Vergo was not using his Bamboo (his specialty since that is his nickname "Demon Bamboo") and because he didn't use Haki at all, much less went Full Body Haki like he did with Law.

Now you can be in denial and try to use the excuse that Sanji was damaged already by the damage Nami took while she was in his body. But taking that in account would still not be enough to say Sanji would've won because a fully healed Sanji would not be able to defeat a Full Body Haki Vergo with Haki Bamboo stick. He didnt even consider Sanji a threat as he left to go face off Law.

 

[goldb]

You really discussed Smoker's powerlevel for 3 pages? By any stretch of the imagination he's not currently among the top 20-30 strongest characters in the series. His rate of growth is signficantly lower than that of the SH's top fighters and he was whooped by an opponent of the same rank as him; so considering how Vice Admirals there are, I'd make a good bet of many of them being able to also defeat Smoker; when you take their experience into consideration.

Those discussing the Sanji v Vergo, there are not one, but two threads about that particular encounter that you can take that discussion to. Though it's all just repetitive.

AND finally you really think Sanji will fight King because of "aerial fight" LOL. When has Sanji fought someone because of reasons like that, If anything it has been proven plenty of times that Luffy will fight the main villain, then Zolo the 2nd strongest, and Sanji the 3rd strongest. So if Oda decides to keep that formula, then Zolo will fight King and Sanji will fight Queen.

There's nothing wrong with Sanji fighting King; the entirety of his clash with Doflamingo was mid-air (if I remember correctly). So if Oda wishes for a similar thing, he'll make it happen, even if it's just a temporary clash. Though yes, considering King looks be a swordsman, and 2nd strongest in the crew it points to Zoro to usually fight someone like that.

 

[thedude]

You really discussed Smoker's powerlevel for 3 pages? By any stretch of the imagination he's not currently among the top 20-30 strongest characters in the series. His rate of growth is signficantly lower than that of the SH's top fighters and he was whooped by an opponent of the same rank as him; so considering how Vice Admirals there are, I'd make a good bet of many of them being able to also defeat Smoker; when you take their experience into consideration.

Those discussing the Sanji v Vergo, there are not one, but two threads about that particular encounter that you can take that discussion to. Though it's all just repetitive.



There's nothing wrong with Sanji fighting King; the entirety of his clash with Doflamingo was mid-air (if I remember correctly). So if Oda wishes for a similar thing, he'll make it happen, even if it's just a temporary clash. Though yes, considering King looks be a swordsman, and 2nd strongest in the crew it points to Zoro to usually fight someone like that.

true on the Zoro/King thing, but then again, Queen also carries swords, and we really don't know who is 2nd strongest, although my money would be on King by a hair.

I'm just glad there is a good chance we get SH's fighting real fights for the first time since the time skip!

 

[King Moe]

Why does Zoro's performance bother you so much and yet you are adamant on saying that Smoker's last shown performance doesn't matter "because he's destined to be stronger"?

Zoro is already fighting and showing how he is thus far from his training and look how he been in Wano arc. He been in worse situation compare to Smoker in how he was hype tool more than once by many enemies while Smoker we have yet to see how he is now to truly say if he at same level as before or not. Should be underestimated on how he is. Zoro though given what we seeing currently right now, he is not in that top of the tops as you can't be hype tool like he been to even faint to be consider up there now.

 

[Ramen]

Smoker is not a top 50 character.

 

[Nie Li]

Nothing to do with the topic of Sanji and Vergo but some days ago I argued that I was unsure that Katakuri's DF could have the same powers as a logia.

I basically said that with no proof that he could actually do things like splitting himself, I thought he could only mold himself, or he would just be called a logia.

I know about the definition of the word "logia" but I still will never understand or like how Mochi Mochi no Mi isn't part of the category, but I have to admit that there is a panel on chapter 871 of Katakuri splitting in half so no matter if his powers work as subconsciously as a logia's do, he's just as invulnerable to slashing attacks that could tear his body to pieces as any logia user is (which was relevant because the topic was on Katakuri vs Zoro).

So, yeah, with his DF and CoO Zoro wouldn't have a chance against him.

 

[nik87]

he's just as invulnerable to slashing attacks that could tear his body to pieces

Hakified slashes are dangerous for him as they are for any other logia.
Huge attacks which are bigger than Katakuri's body cannot be shapeshifted through.

So, yeah, with his DF and CoO Zoro wouldn't have a chance against him.

Would Mihawk and Shanks stand no chance against him either and why?

 

[Ramen]

Nothing to do with the topic of Sanji and Vergo but some days ago I argued that I was unsure that Katakuri's DF could have the same powers as a logia.

I basically said that with no proof that he could actually do things like splitting himself, I thought he could only mold himself, or he would just be called a logia.

I know about the definition of the word "logia" but I still will never understand or like how Mochi Mochi no Mi isn't part of the category, but I have to admit that there is a panel on chapter 871 of Katakuri splitting in half so no matter if his powers work as subconsciously as a logia's do, he's just as invulnerable to slashing attacks that could tear his body to pieces as any logia user is (which was relevant because the topic was on Katakuri vs Zoro).

So, yeah, with his DF and CoO Zoro wouldn't have a chance against him.

They should've just made a logia. Like what is a "special paramecia?"

 

[Nie Li]

Hakified slashes are dangerous for him as they are for any other logia.
Huge attacks which are bigger than Katakuri's body cannot be shapeshifted through.

Would Mihawk and Shanks stand no chance against him either and why?

He can shapeshift through big slashes since he can fully split his body into pieces. Does Zoro have an attack that's physically bigger than Katakuri's body other than a slash? Even if he had, it's not like Katakuri's CoA was weak by any means, and he's no weaponless either. His trident proved to be very sturdy.

Mihawk and Shanks are a different matter; They should both be stronger than Katakuri since Shanks' a worthy Yonkou and I do believe Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, but I cannot tell you "why" they're stronger than Katakuri since we just know close to nothing about Shanks' and Mihawk's haki prowess or full capabilities in general. For all we know, the answer might just be that their CoO is even more advanced than Katakuri, or just that they're so skilled that just seeing the future isn't enough to avoid them, but that's all speculation on our part.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 19, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 19, 2020 ---

They should've just made a logia. Like what is a "special paramecia?"

Agreed.

Supposedly it's because "logia's are only elements found in nature", and Mochi is man-made, but clearly logia's are not so much about nature but about a specific set of abilities. There are many paramecias that don't have that set of abilities but whose powers are tied to elements found in nature.

 

[Ramen]

He can shapeshift through big slashes since he can fully split his body into pieces. Does Zoro have an attack that's physically bigger than Katakuri's body other than a slash? Even if he had, it's not like Katakuri's CoA was weak by any means, and he's no weaponless either. His trident proved to be very sturdy.

Mihawk and Shanks are a different matter; They should both be stronger than Katakuri since Shanks' a worthy Yonkou and I do believe Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, but I cannot tell you "why" they're stronger than Katakuri since we just know close to nothing about Shanks' and Mihawk's haki prowess or full capabilities in general. For all we know, the answer might just be that their CoO is even more advanced than Katakuri, or just that they're so skilled that just seeing the future isn't enough to avoid them, but that's all speculation on our part.

That's why Shiryuu's DF is useless. Anyone with CoO renders it useless.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 19, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 19, 2020 ---

Agreed.

Supposedly it's because "logia's are only elements found in nature", and Mochi is man-made, but clearly logia's are not so much about nature but about a specific set of abilities. There are many paramecias that don't have that set of abilities but whose powers are tied to elements found in nature.

Logia is about intangibility if were being honest.

 

[nik87]

He can shapeshift through big slashes since he can fully split his body into pieces. Does Zoro have an attack that's physically bigger than Katakuri's body other than a slash? Even if he had, it's not like Katakuri's CoA was weak by any means, and he's no weaponless either. His trident proved to be very sturdy.

Mihawk and Shanks are a different matter; They should both be stronger than Katakuri since Shanks' a worthy Yonkou and I do believe Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, but I cannot tell you "why" they're stronger than Katakuri since we just know close to nothing about Shanks' and Mihawk's haki prowess or full capabilities in general. For all we know, the answer might just be that their CoO is even more advanced than Katakuri, or just that they're so skilled that just seeing the future isn't enough to avoid them, but that's all speculation on our part.

Pound Ho canon sized diameter is bigger than Katakuri's body.
I literally cant see a way out for Katakuri against Kokujo O Tatsumaki.
It is not many hits like Luffy's gatling, it is one "never-ending" tornado slash.

Katakuri's CoA isnt good either, it is just better than Luffy's and that has never been a special achievement...
He cant even use haki flow... Katakuri certainly doesnt excel in CoA since he is all about future sight, even his regular presence detection seems bad...

Why are Mihawk and Shanks different matter? They are exactly the same type of combatant like Zoro - plain swordsmen.
What exactly is the requirement to be stronger than Katakuri in your opinion? What abilities/powers/moves do you need?
The people think you need to be like Luffy to defeat Luffy's opponents and that has always been the wrong approach.

 

[Nie Li]

Pound Ho canon sized diameter is bigger than Katakuri's body.
I literally cant see a way out for Katakuri against Kokujo O Tatsumaki.
It is not many hits like Luffy's gatling, it is one "never-ending" tornado slash.

Katakuri's CoA isnt good either, it is just better than Luffy's and that has never been a special achievement...
He cant even use haki flow... Katakuri certainly doesnt excel in CoA since he is all about future sight, even his regular presence detection seems bad...

Why are Mihawk and Shanks different matter? They are exactly the same type of combatant like Zoro - plain swordsmen.
What exactly is the requirement to be stronger than Katakuri in your opinion? What abilities/powers/moves do you need?
The people think you need to be like Luffy to defeat Luffy's opponents and that has always been the wrong approach.

Honestly Pound Ho can be blocked, dodged or "shapeshifted through".
Kokujo O Tatsumaki can also be dodged unless they're fighting in a small room.

Katakuri's CoA was on par with G4 and G4's haki was fairly strong. Luffy was able to block with his haki-hardened abdomen alone a haki-hardened stab from multiple Doflamingo's strings put together, despite piercing attacks being Luffy's weak point. Sure, he didn't have emission, but that's not a requirement for fighting against Zoro since Zoro hasn't proved either that he can already pull such advanced armament.



Mihawk and Shanks are a different matter because they're on a different level from Zoro. Same type of combatants but world's apart. Stats and skill are important, or are you saying Brook can defeat Katakuri just because he's also able of performing flying slashes? Or T-Bone.

 

[HereNThere]

I know about the definition of the word "logia" but I still will never understand or like how Mochi Mochi no Mi isn't part of the category, but I have to admit that there is a panel on chapter 871 of Katakuri splitting in half so no matter if his powers work as subconsciously as a logia's do, he's just as invulnerable to slashing attacks that could tear his body to pieces as any logia user is (which was relevant because the topic was on Katakuri vs Zoro).

His fruit is definitely a case of pedantry. It's a Logia in everything but name. Maybe Oda could've made a sub category of Logia to fit it in, like Mythological Zoans have, but it still would be a fruit that blurs the line between Paramecia and Logia.

 

[thedude]

From what we saw, Sanji was faster than Vergo. Before Sanji's leg was fractured, Sanji had outpaced him in a clash and kicked him through a wall. Nevermind that, despite the injury, Sanji was still going toe to toe in terms of speed.

Vergo has a lot of durability, true, but we have evidence that Sanji could harm Vergo with his kicks and force him back. Armament makes things a bit iffy, but Sanji had stronger techniques like Grill Shot and Hell's Memories as well. We can't say how they'd match up, but he had them.

Leg strength is also debatable seeing as how, outside of the fracture, the two were matching each other kick for kick during their clashes. They continued to match each other's kicks post injury as well. If the fracture came from these clashes, yeah, we could say Vergo had Sanji beat in leg strength, but the fracture came from a miscalculated block, something Sanji has gotten injured from for years now.

Now, could he have won? I can't say for sure, but Vergo wasn't monstrously overwhelming him like a lot of people seem to think. The two were basically evenly matched.

I'd say Sanji did about as well as Smoker did vs Vergo, and he's stronger since then.

 

[nik87]

Katakuri's CoA was on par with G4 and G4's haki was fairly strong. Luffy was able to block with his haki-hardened abdomen alone a haki-hardened stab from multiple Doflamingo's strings put together, despite piercing attacks being Luffy's weak point. Sure, he didn't have emission, but that's not a requirement for fighting against Zoro since Zoro hasn't proved either that he can already pull such advanced armament.

Actually, Luffy has was inferior to Katakuri's. His hands hurt regardless of gear.
Quality of Luffy's haki also doesnt change because of gear, it stays the same.
Doflamingo's CoA is also not something that has ever been hyped and his attacks never did anything close to Cracker's cheap shot on Luffy's arm.

Zoro proved high mastery of haki flow, he can release huge amounts to cut a mountain.
He can pull back in the huge amounts that Enma drew out.
The only thing Zoro cant do yet when it comes to CoA is forging a black blade.

Mihawk and Shanks are a different matter because they're on a different level from Zoro. Same type of combatants but world's apart. Stats and skill are important, or are you saying Brook can defeat Katakuri just because he's also able of performing flying slashes? Or T-Bone.

I am not sure in that. I dont think they are world's apart but quite the contrary, not so different at all.
Zoro has those skills and stats, Brook doesnt.
Zoro in the New World has the Mihawk portrayal from pre-TS(small knife feats, splitting a galleon and a huge target slash).
You can check out my video on YT - Why Zoro Is a Top Tier Already.

 

[King Moe]

Smoker is not a top 50 character.

He is. Actually more above that.