Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
Nah, not from what I seen as just by a bit stronger, but not like leap over. Who is stronger between Absalom and Ryuma is debatable.
Nah, Kaku was very slower in how to workout his DF compare to Jabra as that is fact about it and we don't know what happen to rest of the group as rest could be back at HQ to reveal whole CPO members. Seems unlikely why only Lucci and Kaku join back and not the rest.
Nah, Bon Clay easily have better feats and importance over Daz Bones and due to placement by bounties than truly power. We saw Bon Clay later encased in secret lvl 6 later instead back on lvl 3, so shows he is much tougher than he looks.
Kaku was physically stronger than Jabura, the manga states that. Mr. 1 is stronger than Mr. 2 the manga implies it. BW is an organization of power structure, the higher you are in the agents the stronger you are, no doubt about it. The only exception known to us is the Mr.4 > Mr. 3, because Mr. 4 was an idiot.
Why do you keep ignoring the manga? Give us examples that show Mr. 2 having better feats than Mr. 1, importance doesnt matter in strength, Mr. 2 is only more important because he was the SHs BFF. A good feat showcasing Mr. 1 is how Crocodile went out of his way to release Mr. 1 from his cell. Crocodile could care less about Mr. 2 and Mr. 3. This means Crocodile thought Mr. 1 was strong enough to help.
Kaku was physically stronger than Jabura, the manga states that. Mr. 1 is stronger than Mr. 2 the manga implies it. BW is an organization of power structure, the higher you are in the agents the stronger you are, no doubt about it. The only exception known to us is the Mr.4 > Mr. 3, because Mr. 4 was an idiot.
Why do you keep ignoring the manga? Give us examples that show Mr. 2 having better feats than Mr. 1, importance doesnt matter in strength, Mr. 2 is only more important because he was the SHs BFF. A good feat showcasing Mr. 1 is how Crocodile went out of his way to release Mr. 1 from his cell. Crocodile could care less about Mr. 2 and Mr. 3. This means Crocodile thought Mr. 1 was strong enough to help.
Base, not DF and only by 20 difference which isn't much. It's stated they didn't out DF powers in there which push that it's not true scaling of their full power as Jabra was clear stronger than him in DF Form given he just got his in same arc while he has more time with his. Not really as Bon Clay and Daz Bones fought evenly in a clash in the arc and neither stated on who was stronger. Ranking doesn't always mean who stronger as looking on how Oda sees Bon Clay, he looks to be stronger than Daz Bones more. I am not ignoring it, but your clearly ignoring the fight scene they had together and how Daz Bones was struggling with him in that fight.
Also reason Crocodile went with Mr. 1 wasn't just for his power as it's more with Bon Clay wouldn't go with him anymore given his alliance with Luffy and he still want others to follow him from his former crew like Mr. 3, but choose not too, so not like Crocodile was picky who he wants on his side actually.
Moe stop. These debates are pointless all because you're afraid that admitting you're wrong would somehow prove that Zoro is stronger than Sanji. Why arey you so stubborn?
As a few others have correctly said, the only one example out of the 3 that can even be remotely debated is Jabura's strength in relation to Kaku, as @Moegara pointed out the doriki measures physical strength so it doesn't take into account their individual devil fruits. That's the only one.
If you want to stand your ground on Absalom and Mr 2 being stronger that Ryuma and Mr 1 respectively, the burden of proof is on you, because at this point every example has been explained by different users here.
Also I've already advised we shelve discussions comparing Sanji and Zoro. If you're wanting to continue debating these other characters on their own merit that's fine, but if it comes back to Sanji and Zoro I'll be deleting those posts.
Can you defend your claims without spouting accusations about agendas and "if you don't like Sanji, it's fine, but don't make something up" and similar things? It looks like you can't.
Compare their feats. Ryuuma is very evidently much stronger than Absalom. Absalom was a weakling and Sanji had a very easy time dealing with him. Absalom's only real feat is surviving Nami's thundercloud, and that's not a big deal. Ryuma's zombie wasn't really on Zoro's level either, but he had much better showings and wouldn't qualify as a weakling.
Nah, Kaku was very slower in how to workout his DF compare to Jabra as that is fact about it and we don't know what happen to rest of the group as rest could be back at HQ to reveal whole CPO members. Seems unlikely why only Lucci and Kaku join back and not the rest.
What do you even mean, "slower in how to workout his DF"? Jyabura had his fruit for longer than five years before the Enies Lobby arc happened, Kaku obtained it just before the fights; literally the very same day he fought Zoro. Jyabura being also promoted to CP0 is pure speculation; he's not among the members we have seen so far.
Nah, Bon Clay easily have better feats and importance over Daz Bones and due to placement by bounties than truly power. We saw Bon Clay later encased in secret lvl 6 later instead back on lvl 3, so shows he is much tougher than he looks.
Secret Levels are not imprisonments, they're hiding places that the guards don't know about. Wherever level they're hiding at means nothing about his strength, since that's not something the guards decided for him, but rather a place he's hiding at.
Mr.2 doesn't have better showings than Mr.1. Since Mr.2 never showed to be capable of haki, he has absolutely no means of damaging Mr.1's steel body and, even worse, if he tried to attack Mr.1 he would just get shred to pieces, since anywhere he hits Mr.1 can instantly turn into a blade; not just his arms.
It's also true that Crocodile had no interest in Mr.2 and only cared about releasing and recruiting Mr.1. He has high hopes for him. And it's also true Baroque Works ranked their Top 21 members by strength (from Mr.10 to Mr.0 + their respective partners). This was said in the manga when they were introduced, and strongly reinforced when we learnt about Mr.1's fruit and Mr.2's fighting abilities. You keep alluding to the small clash they had as if it was proof that they're somehow equal or that Mr.2's stronger.
Let's remember the clash:
Mr.2 tried to sucker kick Mr.1 and failed at that. Mr.1 tried to hit him without using his DF abilities, so clearly without intending to really hurt him and only trying to subdue him. Mr.2 managed to land a kick Mr.1 and sent him flying out of the building, but not only did Mr.1 land on his feet: he was perfectly unhurt by the kick (because Mr.2 isn't strong enough to bypass his steel durability) and he also didn't "go through" the wall: he cut it into pieces before crashing into it, avoiding any kind of possible damage (and also meaning he was fast enough to properly react to the whole thing).
If Mr.1 didn't have orders to get along with Mr.2 and if he wasn't much more disciplined than Mr.2, he could have cut Mr.2's leg the same way that he cut the wall.
He was about to start using his DF and murder Mr.2 (as seen by what he says and the panel showing his hand, with which we known he's capable of flying slashes from his fingers among other advanced cutting techniques) when he was stopped by his partner.
This scene was meant to hype both Mr.1 and Mr.2, that much is true, but please tell me how they're shown as real equals there. How could Mr.2 possibly finish off Mr.1? When Mr.1 later fights Zoro, the fight starts with Zoro landing a full combo of named slashing attacks right at Mr.1's body, face and neck, without Mr.1 blocking any of the techniques, and we know how that went for Zoro a few minutes later. Mr.2 cannot cut or break steel, and just like he can get stronger over time, so does Mr.1, especially now that he has been sailing the New World with Crocodile.
So how? How is Mr.2 possibly stronger than him or equal? Please give reasons without talking about agendas and bs.
Agree to Disagree like always with us as again we won't get anywhere given your agenda and already you making illogical statement saying 'No training' on Sanij when we just saw him use weapons on Wanze fight. You don't instantly to know how to use them by first time use. He has clear practice and it shows. While he didn't enjoy his time there, he still acknowledge what his family try to teach him in using weapons as a child in many sparring sessions. While he wasn't good at it, his memory on how he was taught shows along combine with Zeff teaching him how to use knifes of their occuptation increase that. He be no different on how to use a sword from what we seen in Wanze fight. It's ignorant to say he isn't good with weapons when clear we just saw him fight like swordsman in that fight. Listen if you don't like Sanji, it's fine, but don't make something up like that to justify your response when it's not true.
Sanji only knows how to use knives as cooking tools, and the way to handle a knife has nothing to do with the way to handle a sword, just like it has nothing to do with the way to handle a scythe or a spear.
You're the one who always claims that Kamazou was nerfed in his fight against Zoro because he wielded a bladed weapon that was not the same kind that he wielded two years ago, yet now you claim that since Sanji knows how to use knives, he must be very good at wielding swords despite there being literally 0 proof of it. Your opinion is always about undermining a certain someone and overhyping another certain someone. The way you analyse things is extremely contradictory because of it.
Sanji wasn't only taught by fighting through kicks, but also how to wield weapons which is proof from that fight. While he isn't one to use his hands, no doubt if he wanted to, he does have skills to show he can.
Not true at all.
Sanji was only taught how to fight through kicks, just like Red Leg Zeff fought in the past. Sanji was taught that his hands are only for cooking and that he can only wield things like knives for the purpose of it, and not to fight. Of course it would make literally zero sense that Zeff would teach him how to fight with a sword if he teached him the philosophy of never using anything but his legs and feet.
True on that statement to know whether how good Sanji will be on weapons to credible foe, but looking at characters like Mihawk who can easily beat anyone with smaller knife, Sanji could easily add Haki to his weapons and be in similar vibe on how to use weapons (Not saying he be Mihawk level, but would be strong threat with weapons if he choose to fight with his hands and weapons). We shouldn't underestimate on his abilities and not much different from wielding an sword as his stance in fighting Wanze was like a swordsman desigh, so just saying it's heavy possibility on how skill he is as your not a novice or first-time on how he did Wanze on weapons as it felt like he was same level as Zoro on knowing how to cut things down.
Mihawk is a different character with a different set of skills. Sanji can perhaps add haki to a weapon (perhaps, because he has never imbued anything with haki in the series) but if he challenged a skilled swordsman to a duel, he'd lose. His haki and the opponent's haki might be similar, but the skill wouldn't. Since Sanji is not trained at the art of the sword, he would be inferior in that fight.
I never said who was better in swords, but just that Sanji with weapons can be as deadly shown in Wanze fight. Obviously I prefer his Black Leg style. Just saying Sanji is one with diverse skill which is canon fact about him.
Moe stop. These debates are pointless all because you're afraid that admitting you're wrong would somehow prove that Zoro is stronger than Sanji. Why arey you so stubborn?
As a few others have correctly said, the only one example out of the 3 that can even be remotely debated is Jabura's strength in relation to Kaku, as @Moegara pointed out the doriki measures physical strength so it doesn't take into account their individual devil fruits. That's the only one.
If you want to stand your ground on Absalom and Mr 2 being stronger that Ryuma and Mr 1 respectively, the burden of proof is on you, because at this point every example has been explained by different users here.
Also I've already advised we shelve discussions comparing Sanji and Zoro. If you're wanting to continue debating these other characters on their own merit that's fine, but if it comes back to Sanji and Zoro I'll be deleting those posts.
Not afraid I am admitting I am wrong. Just sating back and forth who face stronger enemies between Sanji and Zoro. Nothing to do with stubbornness as it just how they are presented about the enemies depending which ones or even equal in power level between them.
As for Absalom and Ryuma it debatable on who is stronger as I don't mind stating Ryuma could have been a bit stronger than Absalom, but not much while there is clear evidence on Bon Clay and Daz Bones were more equals in power as don't you remember fight they had with each other? Neither give an each on who was dominate over who. Don't you remember the fight when they gather at the bar? If you mean by having rank position, I agree on Mr. 1 rank higher on position, but it didn't seem it means in power though given how they match each other. That's not me saying pointless things, it stuff we read from the manga/
Not trying to make Zoro vs Sanji issue, but more factor it's been back and forth who face stronger foe or their enemies are shown more equal than dominance over the other. It's because of how Oda sees the rivalry and always push them having enemies to compete with one another majority of the time. That isn't me making it up, just how Oda direct things about their relationship with enemies they face in serious all-out fight arcs.
Can you defend your claims without spouting accusations about agendas and "if you don't like Sanji, it's fine, but don't make something up" and similar things? It looks like you can't.
I'll break down your post.
Compare their feats. Ryuuma is very evidently much stronger than Absalom. Absalom was a weakling and Sanji had a very easy time dealing with him. Absalom's only real feat is surviving Nami's thundercloud, and that's not a big deal. Ryuma's zombie wasn't really on Zoro's level either, but he had much better showings and wouldn't qualify as a weakling.
What do you even mean, "slower in how to workout his DF"? Jyabura had his fruit for longer than five years before the Enies Lobby arc happened, Kaku obtained it just before the fights; literally the very same day he fought Zoro. Jyabura being also promoted to CP0 is pure speculation; he's not among the members we have seen so far.
Secret Levels are not imprisonments, they're hiding places that the guards don't know about. Wherever level they're hiding at means nothing about his strength, since that's not something the guards decided for him, but rather a place he's hiding at.
Mr.2 doesn't have better showings than Mr.1. Since Mr.2 never showed to be capable of haki, he has absolutely no means of damaging Mr.1's steel body and, even worse, if he tried to attack Mr.1 he would just get shred to pieces, since anywhere he hits Mr.1 can instantly turn into a blade; not just his arms.
It's also true that Crocodile had no interest in Mr.2 and only cared about releasing and recruiting Mr.1. He has high hopes for him. And it's also true Baroque Works ranked their Top 21 members by strength (from Mr.10 to Mr.0 + their respective partners). This was said in the manga when they were introduced, and strongly reinforced when we learnt about Mr.1's fruit and Mr.2's fighting abilities. You keep alluding to the small clash they had as if it was proof that they're somehow equal or that Mr.2's stronger.
Let's remember the clash:
Mr.2 tried to sucker kick Mr.1 and failed at that. Mr.1 tried to hit him without using his DF abilities, so clearly without intending to really hurt him and only trying to subdue him. Mr.2 managed to land a kick Mr.1 and sent him flying out of the building, but not only did Mr.1 land on his feet: he was perfectly unhurt by the kick (because Mr.2 isn't strong enough to bypass his steel durability) and he also didn't "go through" the wall: he cut it into pieces before crashing into it, avoiding any kind of possible damage (and also meaning he was fast enough to properly react to the whole thing).
If Mr.1 didn't have orders to get along with Mr.2 and if he wasn't much more disciplined than Mr.2, he could have cut Mr.2's leg the same way that he cut the wall.
He was about to start using his DF and murder Mr.2 (as seen by what he says and the panel showing his hand, with which we known he's capable of flying slashes from his fingers among other advanced cutting techniques) when he was stopped by his partner.
This scene was meant to hype both Mr.1 and Mr.2, that much is true, but please tell me how they're shown as real equals there. How could Mr.2 possibly finish off Mr.1? When Mr.1 later fights Zoro, the fight starts with Zoro landing a full combo of named slashing attacks right at Mr.1's body, face and neck, without Mr.1 blocking any of the techniques, and we know how that went for Zoro a few minutes later. Mr.2 cannot cut or break steel, and just like he can get stronger over time, so does Mr.1, especially now that he has been sailing the New World with Crocodile.
So how? How is Mr.2 possibly stronger than him or equal? Please give reasons without talking about agendas and bs.
Sanji only knows how to use knives as cooking tools, and the way to handle a knife has nothing to do with the way to handle a sword, just like it has nothing to do with the way to handle a scythe or a spear.
You're the one who always claims that Kamazou was nerfed in his fight against Zoro because he wielded a bladed weapon that was not the same kind that he wielded two years ago, yet now you claim that since Sanji knows how to use knives, he must be very good at wielding swords despite there being literally 0 proof of it. Your opinion is always about undermining a certain someone and overhyping another certain someone. The way you analyse things is extremely contradictory because of it.
Not true at all.
Sanji was only taught how to fight through kicks, just like Red Leg Zeff fought in the past. Sanji was taught that his hands are only for cooking and that he can only wield things like knives for the purpose of it, and not to fight. Of course it would make literally zero sense that Zeff would teach him how to fight with a sword if he teached him the philosophy of never using anything but his legs and feet.
Mihawk is a different character with a different set of skills. Sanji can perhaps add haki to a weapon (perhaps, because he has never imbued anything with haki in the series) but if he challenged a skilled swordsman to a duel, he'd lose. His haki and the opponent's haki might be similar, but the skill wouldn't. Since Sanji is not trained at the art of the sword, he would be inferior in that fight.
This is not an opinion. We know that he is not.
You did. You said twice, at different times and at different threads, that Sanji is arguably stronger than Zoro with a sword.
First you try it first since every time I see you posting about Sanji-related topics it always downplay like your vision saying Sanji and King won't interact ever and Oda won't try it when opposite occur. Your even been doubting about issues about Sanji vs Vergo issues in another thread when it clear he has evolve from since then and was in nerf situation with that fight. If you want me to not see it, then you can't always act like that when someone praising or explaining why it's more favor on Sanji than against them.
You could say same with Zoro with Ryuma given he never harm Zoro much (but Zoro still did his best against him though). Like I said, I don't mind calling Ryuma stronger one if so, but only a bit than miles apart honestly. Only Zombie I could clearly say who were stronger than Moria's 'Commanders' were Luffy's Sanji's and Zoro's Zombies only more so.
I know that. Though you see Kaku was lagging in DF side as how he move as he was adjusting himself to it while Jabra was clearly experience and more time with his. I admit on Base on Kaku is stronger than Jabra, but only 20 number difference and not much. It heavily implied they didn't use DF to record their Doriki if so, then we can't out the possibility of Jabra being stronger one over Kaku given how small difference between them. We haven't seen all about CP0 though as we still have members who are masked and where their HQ are at. Also doesn't make sense why rest wouldn't be around yet Lucci and Kaku came back on their end. Unless they denied going back, we can't push away possibility them in CP0 given other 2 came back. We have to wait and see on full roster of CP0 and what happen within 2 years on the situation, but shouldn't be doubted as possibility.
Thank you for acknowledging the fight between them as I thought you would ignore it to justify your side without accepting it. Now on the fight, true on that Daz Bones weren't going full all out, but you can say the same with Bon Clay as we didn't see him use his Pistol Swan Bullets which would clearly damage Daz Bones if he went with it. Also hard to say if Daz wasn't using his powers or not as in fight with Zoro his body can be natural sharp without transforming to see blades and can still hurt you. It's debatable on that account if he wasn't using them or not in the fight. Though it's clear they were evenly match and neither went all out like they did either as you can see look on Daz Bones' face he was taking Bon Clay seriously not like in a way he had dominance over him which was far from the truth about situation.
I wouldn't say that as Crocodile see values in all of them so as long they can be useful and have power as he wouldn't put Bon Clay high if he didn't think much of him along with his abilities. He even wanted his old group together to come back to him at Impel Down, but Mr.2 allied with Luffy instead while Mr. 3 went with Buggy side, so only Mr.1 was only one who choose to come back to him. Also true Daz Bones might have gotten stronger since the 2 years timeskip, but same applies to Bon Clay too. Idk about that as wouldn't they know about secret level due to Impel Down arc and if escape from his cell again, he would have to face all levels to get back down their with tighter security, so for Bon Clay to be in level 6 again, it shows he gotten stronger since last time we saw him especially surviving a fight with Magellen.
Who to say. Pretty sure none of us ever thought Sanji was good with weapons until we saw that fight. Sanji can be one to be full of surprises of what he can do. If he is able to wield that way with knifes, it can be the same with swords. That's all I am saying, not saying he was taught like Zoro or anything, but just don't underestimate his own skills with a weapon. Where did Kamazou came from now? He was nerf going into that fight both mentality and not same weapons. He has no backstory to say he was good with other weapons at all unlike who we are discussing. There is no biased around either one as just stating something on one character. Never said anything on Zoro lacking anything on how he use weapons, but just saying not to underestimate Sanji given Oda have fight a similar manner on wielding weapons as if he done it many times before. Don't take praise on character like insult to another as you seems to take things to that notion if someone praise character something good. Not always Z vs S situation on those type of talks.
Also debatable on if he can take out credible weapon user as again we see he isn't lacking on how to use weapons, so that is up on debate and depends on who it is. His background supports why he was able to do what he did with Wanze in using the knifes, so just saying that if he didn't choose to fight with his feet only, he would be dangerous even using his hands with weapons. Nothing wrong on stating he has skills on that. Got give proper dues when you see how character perform them.
First you try it first since every time I see you posting about Sanji-related topics it always downplay like your vision saying Sanji and King won't interact ever and Oda won't try it when opposite occur. Your even been doubting about issues about Sanji vs Vergo issues in another thread when it clear he has evolve from since then and was in nerf situation with that fight. If you want me to not see it, then you can't always act like that when someone praising or explaining why it's more favor on Sanji than against them.
"First you try" what? According to you I downplay Sanji a lot. All right, that's your opinion, but what does it have to do with what I told you?
I told you to stop calling me names because of your lack of arguments, and that's the first thing you're doing.
Also, about your offtopic accusations:
- I never said Sanji and King wouldn't interact, I said Sanji won't defeat King and that they won't have a full fight. So far, I haven't been proven wrong.
- What does Sanji having evolved since his fight with Vergo have to do with the Sanji vs Vergo fight? When I talk about Sanji vs Vergo in that other thread, I talk about the fight they had. Sanji's evolution since then has nothing to do with the fight and his strength at the time.
Don't go offtopic and don't constantly throw "agenda" accusations, if you're right and have proper arguments and reasonings there's no need for this attitude.
You could say same with Zoro with Ryuma given he never harm Zoro much (but Zoro still did his best against him though). Like I said, I don't mind calling Ryuma stronger one if so, but only a bit than miles apart honestly. Only Zombie I could clearly say who were stronger than Moria's 'Commanders' were Luffy's Sanji's and Zoro's Zombies only more so.
I did say the same about Zoro with Ryuuma. I said Zoro had an easy time too against him, and I was the one who told you that Ryuuma's zombie isn't as strong as the original Ryuuma, and that Zoro was nerfed because he was missing one sword.
However, even then, Sanji's and Zoro's zombies were weaker than Ryuuma. They had strong shadows, but not a strong body for that to account to much. It's the opposite for Ryuuma; a not too strong shadow, but a really strong body.
I know that. Though you see Kaku was lagging in DF side as how he move as he was adjusting himself to it while Jabra was clearly experience and more time with his. I admit on Base on Kaku is stronger than Jabra, but only 20 number difference and not much. It heavily implied they didn't use DF to record their Doriki if so, then we can't out the possibility of Jabra being stronger one over Kaku given how small difference between them. We haven't seen all about CP0 though as we still have members who are masked and where their HQ are at. Also doesn't make sense why rest wouldn't be around yet Lucci and Kaku came back on their end. Unless they denied going back, we can't push away possibility them in CP0 given other 2 came back. We have to wait and see on full roster of CP0 and what happen within 2 years on the situation, but shouldn't be doubted as possibility.
20 number difference is two adult trained marine's strength difference.
No need for you to re-explain all of that about Douriki, I acknowledged that point of yours two posts ago, what I said is that you cannot proof that Jyabura with his DF does become stronger than Kaku. You can speculate it, and you do have a point, but since I'm not convinced and it cannot be proven, it's pointless to go on about that.
I never said that it's impossible for Jyabura to be a CP0 as well now, but he has not been shown or hinted at, so we must assume that he's not a CP0. Either he's not back at working for the government, or he's in a different CP. It would make sense if Kaku and Lucci broadened too much the gap between them and the rest. But, once again, this is all speculation, for what we know so far, Jyabura isn't CP0 until the manga tells us otherwise, and you cannot make a point out of it until then.
Thank you for acknowledging the fight between them as I thought you would ignore it to justify your side without accepting it. Now on the fight, true on that Daz Bones weren't going full all out, but you can say the same with Bon Clay as we didn't see him use his Pistol Swan Bullets which would clearly damage Daz Bones if he went with it. Also hard to say if Daz wasn't using his powers or not as in fight with Zoro his body can be natural sharp without transforming to see blades and can still hurt you. It's debatable on that account if he wasn't using them or not in the fight. Though it's clear they were evenly match and neither went all out like they did either as you can see look on Daz Bones' face he was taking Bon Clay seriously not like in a way he had dominance over him which was far from the truth about situation.
I never ignore anything to justify my side, so drop that kind of accusations that do nothing but make this topic less pleasant. How do you know Pistol Swan Bullets could damage Daz Bones? Because they go through rocks? Zoro too could cut throw rocks long before he became able to cut Mr.1.
You remember his fight with Zoro wrong. Daz's body is not natural sharp without transformen to blades. It's naturally hard as steel. That's different, and that's how he can tank Mr.2 and Zoro's attacks without any damage. If Daz was using his cutting powers, are you telling me Mr.2 wouldn't have cut himself from kicking him? That doesn't make sense.
You can argue that Mr.2 was faster or more agile than him, he did land a kick, so what? Mr.2 lacks any way of dealing true damage to Mr.1, and Mr.1 could turn him into mincemeat both from afar with flying slashes (Mr.2 has not weapon and no haki to parry that, and it cannot be dodged if you remember the huge grid pattern Mr.1 can cut from a distance), and Mr.1 could just make a blade appear anywhere on his body that Mr.2 is about to hit him at.
Their powers just give Mr.1 a too obvious advantage in a serious fight.
I wouldn't say that as Crocodile see values in all of them so as long they can be useful and have power as he wouldn't put Bon Clay high if he didn't think much of him along with his abilities. He even wanted his old group together to come back to him at Impel Down, but Mr.2 allied with Luffy instead while Mr. 3 went with Buggy side, so only Mr.1 was only one who choose to come back to him. Also true Daz Bones might have gotten stronger since the 2 years timeskip, but same applies to Bon Clay too. Idk about that as wouldn't they know about secret level due to Impel Down arc and if escape from his cell again, he would have to face all levels to get back down their with tighter security, so for Bon Clay to be in level 6 again, it shows he gotten stronger since last time we saw him especially surviving a fight with Magellen.
What are you talking about? The prisoners on the secret level were officially labelled as "missing prisoners". It's a secret place in which they built a kingdom, that was the whole point of it, why would they let Impel Down prisoners live in a free space? Especially level 6 prisoners outside of their cages? That wouldn't make sense. If Mr.2 is living in a secret level, then you cannot make a point that he randomly jumped from level 2 to level 6.
Who to say. Pretty sure none of us ever thought Sanji was good with weapons until we saw that fight. Sanji can be one to be full of surprises of what he can do. If he is able to wield that way with knifes, it can be the same with swords. That's all I am saying, not saying he was taught like Zoro or anything, but just don't underestimate his own skills with a weapon. Where did Kamazou came from now? He was nerf going into that fight both mentality and not same weapons. He has no backstory to say he was good with other weapons at all unlike who we are discussing. There is no biased around either one as just stating something on one character. Never said anything on Zoro lacking anything on how he use weapons, but just saying not to underestimate Sanji given Oda have fight a similar manner on wielding weapons as if he done it many times before. Don't take praise on character like insult to another as you seems to take things to that notion if someone praise character something good. Not always Z vs S situation on those type of talks.
Also debatable on if he can take out credible weapon user as again we see he isn't lacking on how to use weapons, so that is up on debate and depends on who it is. His background supports why he was able to do what he did with Wanze in using the knifes, so just saying that if he didn't choose to fight with his feet only, he would be dangerous even using his hands with weapons. Nothing wrong on stating he has skills on that. Got give proper dues when you see how character perform them.
Skill with knives =/= skill with swords. Sanji himself in his fight with Wanze explained that his skill with the knive is all cooking-oriented. There's no "weapon training" behind that skill of his, and it has nothing to do with his past with Judge. There's no reason to believe and, more importantly, no proof, that Sanji is skilled with a sword.
Since the only time Sanji has shown his "skill with a weapon" was against a comic relief like Wanze, and only against the food Wanze used as weapon, there's literally 0 feats in the manga to justify Sanji could take on a skilled weapon user.
You change your point around a lot. Now you're saying "not saying he was taught like Zoro or anything". But this is what you actually said last time:
Kinemon didn't because out of respect, never about he was unable after he tried. There is no record of anyone notable on handling Enma and failing at it. Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma and lol Sanji would be better at handling a weapon compare to Zoro given we seen from few fights with a weapon in hand. Enma wouldn't be problem for him and again Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma and there many others who could do it better than him.
Nah, disguise only and Vergo thing is debunked headcannon just like status of Zoro having power to solo Kaido from your headcannon which was never true. Sanji already shown he has COA on high level and better flexibility than guy who fainted from a fight from nerfer without thinking of using his Haki to attack and defend like Zoro XD. Oda is giving him Haki Performance without and with RS as unlike Enma case, Sanji is capable fighting without equipment with notable threats, but you can't say same thing if Zoro loses his swords though. That just how it is for him.
You literally said that Sanji would be better at handling a weapon compared to Zoro given from what we saw from his Wanze fight.
Let's not make this Zoro vs Sanji, but if you say Sanji is more skilled than him, then you have to justify how his fight with Wanze somehow shows that Sanji can take on top-tier swordsmen with his knives.
So you have three choices:
- You "Agree to disagree" because you lack arguments.
- You prove how the Wanze fight proofs that Sanji is better (since that was your claim), or even equal, than Zoro-level swordsmen when fighting with weapons, as if Wanze was a strong opponent and not some joke character.
- You acknowledge you were wrong and close that topic.
Also, now that the Raid Suit has saved Sanji's life from King (or at least it's prevented him from getting his stomach pierced), it would also be a good time to acknowledge you were wrong about RS being "disguise only".
Not afraid I am admitting I am wrong. Just sating back and forth who face stronger enemies between Sanji and Zoro. Nothing to do with stubbornness as it just how they are presented about the enemies depending which ones or even equal in power level between them.
As for Absalom and Ryuma it debatable on who is stronger as I don't mind stating Ryuma could have been a bit stronger than Absalom, but not much while there is clear evidence on Bon Clay and Daz Bones were more equals in power as don't you remember fight they had with each other? Neither give an each on who was dominate over who. Don't you remember the fight when they gather at the bar? If you mean by having rank position, I agree on Mr. 1 rank higher on position, but it didn't seem it means in power though given how they match each other. That's not me saying pointless things, it stuff we read from the manga/
It really isn't that much of a debate. Ryuma's body is stronger, as seen by how much more powerful he made Brook's attacks when he had his shadow. As for the rest of the debate, please read Moegara's post just above yours as it details the encounter between Mr1 and Mr2. But as I also said previously, please provide proof if you're wanting to prove that one is stronger than the other. Because saying things like "how stuff we read from the manga" or "how Oda sees it" is not proof and a passive comment.
Not trying to make Zoro vs Sanji issue, but more factor it's been back and forth who face stronger foe or their enemies are shown more equal than dominance over the other. It's because of how Oda sees the rivalry and always push them having enemies to compete with one another majority of the time. That isn't me making it up, just how Oda direct things about their relationship with enemies they face in serious all-out fight arcs.
When you say things like, please be specific. Which enemies, which chapters, which arcs. Everything you say is vague and your main reasoning is "Because of how Oda sees it". You know what, don't reply. Because I already know what you'll write.
Oh. So that point was even officially acknowledged in a vivre card? And he was even called "the strongest member after the captain"? Well, the whole topic of ZvS feels kind of pointless reading that.
Oh. So that point was even officially acknowledged in a vivre card? And he was even called "the strongest member after the captain"? Well, the whole topic of ZvS feels kind of pointless reading that.
It was pointless from the beginning anyway, its just that Sanji extremists and Zoro trollers try to make it otherwise.
Even in one of the databooks early on Oda made it pretty clear that Luffy and Zoro were above everyone else, i just dont get people like Moe who love Sanji but completely disregard what makes him special to begin with, Sanji has always been a super hero type, he is a normal human who is able to keep up with supernatural monsters (Luffy and Zoro) he unlike them is extremely intelligent and can see the whole picture and always comes in to make any problem go away, Sanji unlike Luffy and Zoro has never been the type to power out of situations but rather he uses his stealth to deal with problems and surprises enemies like Batman would, by him being normal but being strong enough to beat said enemies and outsmarting them.
From beginning it has always been Luffy >= Zoro > Sanji > Franky >= Robin > Brook > Chopper >= Nami >= Usopp, with now Jinbe being above Sanji who should reclaim his place after Wano.
Moe claiming Jabura is CP0 therefore he is stronger than Kaku is similar how he claimed Smoker is in top 30 since his defeat at Punk Hazard. We have literally not seen these characters for years but Moe thinks they have automatically gotten so much stronger.
Besides the point, regarding CP0, I was kinda bummed out to see both Lucci and Kaku in it. I was hoping for newer stronger agents. Lucci better not the be strongest CP0 agent that would be too boring. Highly doubt Jabura will be in it, I dont see why Kaku is even in the group.
Besides the point, regarding CP0, I was kinda bummed out to see both Lucci and Kaku in it. I was hoping for newer stronger agents. Lucci better not the be strongest CP0 agent that would be too boring. Highly doubt Jabura will be in it, I dont see why Kaku is even in the group.
I think it's because early on, Lucci and Kaku were made to be special among CP9, but I like you agree that Kaku should not be in CP0.
Well as for CP0 I expect stronger people than Lucci but the problem is Lucci was an abnormality, it wouldn't surprise me if he can keep up with G4 Luffy, the guy so far has been the only one to push Luffy to a near death fight with them being equal
I think it's because early on, Lucci and Kaku were made to be special among CP9, but I like you agree that Kaku should not be in CP0.
Well as for CP0 I expect stronger people than Lucci but the problem is Lucci was an abnormality, it wouldn't surprise me if he can keep up with G4 Luffy, the guy so far has been the only one to push Luffy to a near death fight with them being equal
I really wish for Lucci to somewhat keep up with Luffy. He's a very charismatic character and the way his talent and his growth rate were hyped back in the day would justify him getting much stronger from the timesekip.
He was supposed to be the strongest Rokushiki user in CP history, and he's a prodigy in how fast he can train. I'm eager to see what new rokushiki techniques he can show us and how devastating rokuougan is when used with CoA hardening.
Although I enjoyed Lucci and the fight is my fav OP fight, dont see many of those like it anymore. I think Lucci has played his role and shouldnt come back on as an opponent to Luffy. I would be bummed out if he can fight equally with G4 Luffy.
I think its time to see new villains instead of the old ones.
He's had more screened time on the movies than the manga.
I want to see more of the 3 CP0 agents from Dressrosa and gauge their power levels, I want to say they're a lil below admiral level.
Nah, not from what I seen as just by a bit stronger, but not like leap over. Who is stronger between Absalom and Ryuma is debatable.
Nah, Kaku was very slower in how to workout his DF compare to Jabra as that is fact about it and we don't know what happen to rest of the group as rest could be back at HQ to reveal whole CPO members. Seems unlikely why only Lucci and Kaku join back and not the rest.
Nah, Bon Clay easily have better feats and importance over Daz Bones and due to placement by bounties than truly power. We saw Bon Clay later encased in secret lvl 6 later instead back on lvl 3, so shows he is much tougher than he looks.
ryuma is much stronger than brook with immense power gap. Brook noted this when he saw ryuma fought more fiercely against zoro. Ryuma destroys absalom any time.
how is kaku slow when he actually manages to develop new techniques right after he ate the fruit? He's actually a fast learner, just like sabo did in dressrosa.
It's the lv 5.5 the newkama land, not secret lv 6. It's not even a prison, it's a secret hideout. Fact is, Mr. 2 was put in lower level compared to Mr. 1.
I think it's because early on, Lucci and Kaku were made to be special among CP9, but I like you agree that Kaku should not be in CP0.
Well as for CP0 I expect stronger people than Lucci but the problem is Lucci was an abnormality, it wouldn't surprise me if he can keep up with G4 Luffy, the guy so far has been the only one to push Luffy to a near death fight with them being equal
My hope is Lucci is still really strong, but serves as a way to build hype for a different SH. He can go after Luffy, but then be stopped by Sanji, the return of the hunter.
It was pointless from the beginning anyway, its just that Sanji extremists and Zoro trollers try to make it otherwise.
Even in one of the databooks early on Oda made it pretty clear that Luffy and Zoro were above everyone else, i just dont get people like Moe who love Sanji but completely disregard what makes him special to begin with, Sanji has always been a super hero type, he is a normal human who is able to keep up with supernatural monsters (Luffy and Zoro) he unlike them is extremely intelligent and can see the whole picture and always comes in to make any problem go away, Sanji unlike Luffy and Zoro has never been the type to power out of situations but rather he uses his stealth to deal with problems and surprises enemies like Batman would, by him being normal but being strong enough to beat said enemies and outsmarting them.
From beginning it has always been Luffy >= Zoro > Sanji > Franky >= Robin > Brook > Chopper >= Nami >= Usopp, with now Jinbe being above Sanji who should reclaim his place after Wano.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
I guess you dont believe Brook when he said Ryuma was never serious at all against him
Yeah i know that was his role in the ship. And he is the best man for that. Vice captain is just unofficial role. But seeing that jimbei is the most experienced among the crew. And arguably the strongest after luffy with his feat. He will be the man that will advice luffy as he know the sea and the most rational man unlike zoro. I just hope oda wont sideline him like he did with robin and just ignore his experience in the new world lol.
Yeah i know that was his role in the ship. And he is the best man for that. Vice captain is just unofficial role. But seeing that jimbei is the most experienced among the crew. And arguably the strongest after luffy with his feat. He will be the man that will advice luffy as he know the sea and the most rational man unlike zoro. I just hope oda wont sideline him like he did with robin and just ignore his experience in the new world lol.
