One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

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[thedude]

Yeah, if oda really follows strict to physics law, kizaru would be the strongest

Fujitora would be I think. Gravity can swallow light (black hole).

 

[Fox666]

If Oda followed physics, when Kizaru or Kuma attacked at the speed of light, they would destroy the planet, but all molecules on their bodies would loose property and they would die.

 

[jaymizzo]

Right exactly. Fire can burn way hotter than magma.

Not a scientist either but Aces fire was yellowish/orange and Magma burns hotter than the fire Ace shown. From what I've seen from google and Sabo vs Akainu forums, Sabo/Ace would have to have blue flames to be able to beat Akainu.

Black flames could be an evolution as well (Amaterasu), but im not sure if black flames are hotter than blue flames in science.

 

[Nie Li]

It's impossible for One Piece to be accurate with real world physics. Just the physical strength of some individuals is insane.

Of course there's also the thing that any logia users would just forever "vanish" into their elements with no chance of turning back as soon as they dematerialized their brains.

Not a scientist either but Aces fire was yellowish/orange and Magma burns hotter than the fire Ace shown. From what I've seen from google and Sabo vs Akainu forums, Sabo/Ace would have to have blue flames to be able to beat Akainu.

Black flames could be an evolution as well (Amaterasu), but im not sure if black flames are hotter than blue flames in science.

Black flames can only be produced in real life through a very specific experiment, and said experiment isn't anything more than a trick to see yellow flames as if they were black through the use of a specific sodium lamp, so it's little more than a visual trick that can't be produced under normal conditions. Those flames properties are just the same as yellow fire.

Black flames can't normally be created because there's no such thing as black light (there's something called "black light" but it is not really black light, but rather some kind of ultraviolet) and so fire cannot emit it.


Under normal conditions, yellow flames can reach up to 1700 ºC (approx).
Magma temperature differs greatly from what kind of minerals have become said magma, but the hottest kind can reach 1600 ºC (and the usual magma only reaches around 1300 ºC at most).

So even without blue flames, if both Ace and Akainu can reach the top of their elements' temperatures, Ace should be able to burn hotter than Akainu.
Either way, we don't really know if they both can reach those limits or if they can't, but it's a useless comparison, isn't it? Since both of them should be invulnerable to any kind of damage through their logia ability, even to damage from something hotter than themselves, right? The only logical explanation I see to Akainu overpowering Ace the way he did is haki proficiency.

 

[HereNThere]

The way I see it, the superiority Akainu's fruit is not heat based, but rather, magma is just capable of smothering fire. At least, that's my justification.

I don't think it was haki. Akainu specifically pointed out the superiority of his fruit rather than the haki. I think Oda has a list of fruits that were superior to certain other fruits. Like Baby 5's was listed as superior to Das Bones on the list.

 

[Demonspeed]

I was thinking about something. Jinbei and Ace fought before, right? Can Fishman Karate allow him to hit Ace without Haki since he uses water vapor for some of his attacks?

 

[Nie Li]

I was thinking about something. Jinbei and Ace fought before, right? Can Fishman Karate allow him to hit Ace without Haki since he uses water vapor for some of his attacks?

That's a good question. I'm always unsure about how water and DFs work. Sometimes any kind of "water" will weaken them, even the "clouds" that behave like water on Skypiea weakened Luffy, yet sometimes it's not about water but about the salt in it (like the salt they used to take the shadows out of the zombies at Thriller Bark).

About the Jinbei vs Ace fight, I think they even fought near the sea (I may be wrong but I think I recall Whitebeard arriving with Moby Dick right next to them to stop the fight) so Jinbei had more than only water vapor at his disposal. Overall Ace should have been at a great disadvantage if Jinbei was half as skilled as he is today.

 

[M3J]

I was thinking about something. Jinbei and Ace fought before, right? Can Fishman Karate allow him to hit Ace without Haki since he uses water vapor for some of his attacks?

I think so. Doesn't water affect fruit users, or is that only sea water when it gets past the user's knee?

 

[HereNThere]

Oda mentioned that it was only standing water or something like that. Rain doesn't weaken them, but something like getting into a tub of bathwater can.

 

[McNuss]

I was thinking about something. Jinbei and Ace fought before, right? Can Fishman Karate allow him to hit Ace without Haki since he uses water vapor for some of his attacks?

It would certainly work in the same fashion that it works against Crocodile, or Rubber works against Enel.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Fujitora would be I think. Gravity can swallow light (black hole).

wouldn't fujitora also die in that case? Black hole would also absorb himself

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 21, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 21, 2020 ---

Oda mentioned that it was only standing water or something like that. Rain doesn't weaken them, but something like getting into a tub of bathwater can.

yeah water still affects them, but not as bad as seawater. They still cannot fully dip in fresh water

 

[King Moe]

Hasn't it been stated coming in contact to seawater nullify your abilities if it hits you along with making DF users feel weak?

 

[kkck]

I was thinking about something. Jinbei and Ace fought before, right? Can Fishman Karate allow him to hit Ace without Haki since he uses water vapor for some of his attacks?

I'd say yes, since water puts out fire. But it would also depend on the exact circumstance since heat could also evaporate an incoming water projectile. The most noteworthy part is probably that fishman karate sort of allows attacks that take advantage of water in your body for shockwaves and whatnot. Those are probably effective even regardless of haki... I do think fishman karate requires some manner or level of armor haki for its use though, kinda like how cutting things has some connection to haki (without necessarily requiring the ability to generate the invisible armor).

 

[GL_Nova]

I'll only comment on this small point. So far, affecting the environment around them is a common trait of some logia fruits, not of awakening. We still know nothing about logia awakened fruits, but awakened zoan and paramecias certainly aren't symbolized like that.

If it's later revealed to be related to awakened logias, then so be it, but it's unknown so far.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 18, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 18, 2020 ---

BB's power of turning off DFs was only that intimidating pre-TS, now any single character with prominent haki would have dealt the same damage to Ace with CQC.

It's now very weird how Ace was "not used to being punched because he relied too much on his logia" if he's supposed to have been fighting pirates on the New World for some years.

Anyway, of course it's not a knock to be defeated by Blackbeard, the guy who scarred Shanks many years before he even ate the yami yami no mi and who soon after defeating Ace became a Yonko.

I mean, with Haki it’s already been evidences that you can see attacks and dodge. He should have no problem moving his flame body around a punch like every other top tier DF user has done. Akoji got stabbed in the chest by Blackbeard with his Haki spear.

 

[goldb]

The way I see it, the superiority Akainu's fruit is not heat based, but rather, magma is just capable of smothering fire. At least, that's my justification.

I don't think it was haki. Akainu specifically pointed out the superiority of his fruit rather than the haki. I think Oda has a list of fruits that were superior to certain other fruits. Like Baby 5's was listed as superior to Das Bones on the list.

Superior Devil Fruit	Inferior Devil Fruit	Ability	Differences
Magu Magu no Mi (Akainu)	Mera Mera no Mi (Ace)	Forms of heat	Magma is of a higher order than fire.
Ton Ton no Mi (Machvise)	Kiro Kiro no Mi (Miss Valentine)	Body weight	The increase in weight by metric tons, which is 1000 kilograms.
Hie Hie no Mi (Aokiji)	Yuki Yuki no Mi (Monet)	Frozen states of water	Ice is a more effective freezing agent than snow.
Buki Buki no Mi (Baby 5)	Supa Supa no Mi (Mr 1 Daz Bones)	Weapon production	The Supa Supa no Mi is limited to blades, while the Buki Buki no Mi can create all forms of weaponry.

This is what you're looking for I think. As other have pointed out in the series Oda (in an SBS) and Akainu have both pointed magma to be superior to Ace's Mera Mera no Mi, which in the real world wouldn't really world, as Moegara pointed out but I can roll with your justification. It's not something that's really worth debating since we can't go against the author on something he's outright confirmed and OP doesn't follow real world logic.

I was thinking about something. Jinbei and Ace fought before, right? Can Fishman Karate allow him to hit Ace without Haki since he uses water vapor for some of his attacks?

Didn't Jinbe once describe how Fishman Karate targets the water inside the body?? I'm having a tough time remembering that...

 

[Shasha23]

Didn't Jinbe once describe how Fishman Karate targets the water inside the body?? I'm having a tough time remembering that...

Yeah he did say that, it was when he punched Luffy from a distance away and then went and explained how his moves work

 

[M3J]

The interesting to think about though is, would it work on a logia? Luffy's a paramecia, but logias handle attacks differently. If you punch Luffy, it'll land, but if you punch Ace, it'd go through his body. Could fishman karate prevent that from happening?

 

[HereNThere]

Hmm, to be fair, Oda didn't specify that it effects all DF users. Jinbe just alluded to the fact Luffy's particular body is no different than a regular persons to him.

However, given that Whitebeard's shockwaves weren't pointed out as being uniquely effective against the Admiral's Logia abilities, I don't think Fishman Karate will be effective against them alone, which is where haki would come in.

 

[Shasha23]

The interesting to think about though is, would it work on a logia? Luffy's a paramecia, but logias handle attacks differently. If you punch Luffy, it'll land, but if you punch Ace, it'd go through his body. Could fishman karate prevent that from happening?

Thats the thing though but Luffy is also rubber and he shouldn't have water or blood in him but it did work on him, Oda is pretty inconsistent like that, you have sometimes where Luffy bleeds out and yet other time characters are shocked at why Luffy is bleeding since he is rubber, im pretty sure Fishman karate can land on anybody since they are alive and is probably better at dealing with ability users than haki.

 

[kkck]

Thats the thing though but Luffy is also rubber and he shouldn't have water or blood in him but it did work on him, Oda is pretty inconsistent like that, you have sometimes where Luffy bleeds out and yet other time characters are shocked at why Luffy is bleeding since he is rubber, im pretty sure Fishman karate can land on anybody since they are alive and is probably better at dealing with ability users than haki.

Luffy definitely has blood in him, that's the basis of gear 2...

As for logias and fishman karate... Logias are intangible and become their element but the explanation of how haki targets them, as in allowing users to target their "substance" suggests that their bodies are still there. It's not certain but it pretty likely that even without haki some forms of fishman karate are effective. maybe specific fruits under specific circumstances could counter it though. Like sand absorbing humidity in the environment or fire/magma getting rid of water before it reaches the target.