One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Ramen]

You mean, like whitebeard who would mop pretty much anyone in Marineford?
And the guy was sick...

How long ago was that? We're talking current.

 

[Nie Li]

Garp may indeed be in that top 10, but everything surrounding Sengoku is... undecisive.

We saw him fighting side by side with Garp in the past against Shiki, but that doesn't mean he's on Garp's level, nor does it mean that he's still as strong as he was when he was young.

Sengoku's strength in Marineford wasn't much impressive by "real top-tier" standards. He only did a couple of attacks and I don't remember him taking anyone out (he certainly failed at taking out Ace and Luffy and he was just at their side), despite certainly trying to.

That doesn't necessarily mean he was "weak", but failing is the best feats he has, and it looks like he won't be getting any other feat in the series. Two years have passed and he's looking much older. He doesn't look like he's training, either. He clearly has stepped away from fighting so he may rettain some strength, but it's sure to only go down from here on.

Most people think Sengoku was the real deal because he was Fleet Admiral, but he probably was weaker than Akainu even during Marineford. He was a good Fleet Admiral, and he probably could hold his own in a fight, but he showed us that his "fighting strength" was not the reason he was a good Fleet Admiral; he was a strategist. He made plans and prepared traps and tricks to control the flow of the battles from a higher position. That's what he really proved to be good at, and it's certainly the best trait for his Fleet Admiral position, but that's not enough to make it into a top 10 rank since that skill is not that useful in a fair 1vs1.

Garp, on the other hand, may be old, but he really seems to have remained around as strong as the OG admirals. Same as Rayleigh, who is also a good candidate for that top 10.

 

[King Moe]

I believe that it did say he couldn't. It's why they couldn't execute him (they tried to but every attempt of execution failed), why he couldn't kill himself, and why Oden's scar was made such a big deal of.

The Scabbards (even those that didn't travel through time and that have had 20 less years to train. Those for who this fight is just like half a year after they saw Oden be defeated) have first shown to be able to pierce Kaido's human body. One can argue that he was drunk, distracted and overconfident. Now we have a sobered up Kaido in dragon form throwing a special technique with the intent to kill at them, and Kin'emon flawlessly cutting Kaido's attack in two and even damaging his dragon body from a distance.

The only thing I'm wondering is why he wasn't executed by an admiral. Akainu would have been pleased to help. Oda needs to explain many things.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2020 ---

I'll address this line.

What Kaido has showed me is that he's been cut twice by a guy who lost to Law who in turn lost to Doflamingo, and that's not making me assume Doflamingo > Kaido, because it just doesn't work like that.

You do realize people get stronger after each arc, right than same level? By your logic then pre-timeskip Crocodile beaten Luffy 2/3 times and thus could beat major of his foes who Luffy have face more. Plus Kinemon cutting fire been shown early on than something on the fly like that. You act like that his ultimate attack and he at full power. Kaido is a tanker and going at his own pace, not same thing with Mihawk who had plenty of chances to own an YC lvl threat and even Crocodile and didn't. Again agree to disagree, but just stating don't undermined Kaido like he is giving his all as we know he isn't.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2020 ---

I’d argue based on feats, Mihawk has the advantage against Kaido and Big Mom.

Even YC level fighters have failed to do anything against him while mid tiers like Kinemon and Franky (a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶o̶r̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶a̶s̶t̶) have been shown to be serious threats to Yonko.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 26, 2020 ---

Conservative estimate- Weaker than all yc3s

Realistic Estimate- stronger than Smoothie but weaker than Queen, Roo and Jozu

Optimistic estimate- Slightly stronger than Katakuri

Nah, Mihawk isn't unless your argument now is that Jozu and Vista could beat Whitebeard another Yonko like Kaido and Big Mom who are pushed as his equals. Kinemon is YC lvl and when Franky harmed Kaido? I never see that around ever. Mihawk can hurt him, but not defeat him as he still be defeated easily than him trying to beat Yonko as shown.

 

[Nie Li]

You do realize people get stronger after each arc, right than same level? By your logic then pre-timeskip Crocodile beaten Luffy 2/3 times and thus could beat major of his foes who Luffy have face more. Plus Kinemon cutting fire been shown early on than something on the fly like that. You act like that his ultimate attack and he at full power. Kaido is a tanker and going at his own pace, not same thing with Mihawk who had plenty of chances to own an YC lvl threat and even Crocodile and didn't. Again agree to disagree, but just stating don't undermined Kaido like he is giving his all as we know he isn't.

Of course what I said doesn't make sense: I used your own arguments.

 

[King Moe]

Of course what I said doesn't make sense: I used your own arguments.

That wasn't argument I was stating. I think you misunderstand point I am getting at again. Let's save this talk another time until we see more performance on both of them then.

 

[roggie]

How long ago was that? We're talking current.

Like 2 years before. It's pretty recent.
I wasn't talking so much about sengoku as someone fairly argued.

But Garp was on par with Roger that was on par with WB.

And a sick WB seemed enough to own anyone in the war. Then...

Also, yeah, Rayleigh. Good candidate to top 10

 

[Ramen]

Like 2 years before. It's pretty recent.
I wasn't talking so much about sengoku as someone fairly argued.

But Garp was on par with Roger that was on par with WB.

And a sick WB seemed enough to own anyone in the war. Then...

Also, yeah, Rayleigh. Good candidate to top 10

Key word "Then"

Before we knew the extent of most characters.

 

[Kato756]

I feel like we are in DESPERATE need of two things

1) Either a better description or a better showing of the physocological effects on Haki.
Sure, we now do know for sure that it DOES something to the users durability, but I´d like it to be more concrete. Maybe show some cracks on hardening when characters are under mental duress?

and this leads me the next point

2)The mind of Kaidou.
That Oden has left a STRONG impression on Kaidou is also something we do know, but again, don´t know the extension of it, because we barely DO know Kaidou, he is the least explored Yonkou so far.

And it is my belief that only after those 2 points are explored that we will be able to acuretally talk about Kaidou.

EXAMPLE OF HOW THE SITUATION HAS WORKED SO FAR IF POINT 1 OF MY ARGUMENT GETS EXPANDED BY ODA

Assuming point 1 can lead to significant differences in durability, both in a positive and in a negative way, all that has happened so far would make sense.

Kaidou sees scarbads, takes a mental "debuff" to his Haki, against the united Haki of the VERY determined scabards. (-1 to Kaidou, +1 Kinemon/9RS)

Kaidou then takes further "damage" to his haki by actually BEING wounded by people he found so beneath him. (-1 to Kaidou)

Then his men are pretty much all defeated, including one of his top 3. While I don´t think he cares that much about his men, it doesnt build any confidence
(so think of this a +0 moment, which in case of Jack´s victory could´ve maybe been a +1)

Kinemon then sees his Mink allies falling and wants to step in, but is stopped by Inu and Neko, and has to bid his time while being reminded of the costs of this fight and its stakes (+1 to Kinemon)

Then he fires his go to attack which pretty much fries anything and it gets COUNTERED by someone who should be dead, which again would to me would indicate further damage (-1). And lets remember that even if Kaidou is strong, Kinemon´s style does have a fire cutting techinique that even Zoro couldn´t replicate at first glance ( a indicator of skill, not power). (Also this being A VERY SPECIFC "COUNTER" situation, I´d say this is a x2)

This makes the final score of "buffs and debuffs" at a -3 to Kaidou and +4 to Kinemon, which to me would justify the superficial wounds Kaidou has taken.

And in hindsight, this would even explain Kinemon´s poor showings at Punk Hazard and Dressrosa, as he was under a lot of emotional duress (Momo gone, rescue Kanjuro, Momo´s safety uncertain again after Big Mom´s ship appears, plus the whole time jump thing).

Spoiler: More elaboration, read only if you want to critize what I said here

Yes, I do know we have already seen that Haki does weaken with emotional duress, just like with BM (Physical has been covered long ago with Aokiji Vs WB and does not apply here), but I do say that BM is a very extreme example that inquires further examples, because she is a exception among exceptions, sporting high durability ever since she was a kid and having some actual mental disorders. Which is why I want this to be more explored.

 

[Ramen]

I feel like we are in DESPERATE need of two things

1) Either a better description or a better showing of the physocological effects on Haki.
Sure, we now do know for sure that it DOES something to the users durability, but I´d like it to be more concrete. Maybe show some cracks on hardening when characters are under mental duress?

and this leads me the next point

2)The mind of Kaidou.
That Oden has left a STRONG impression on Kaidou is also something we do know, but again, don´t know the extension of it, because we barely DO know Kaidou, he is the least explored Yonkou so far.

And it is my belief that only after those 2 points are explored that we will be able to acuretally talk about Kaidou.

EXAMPLE OF HOW THE SITUATION HAS WORKED SO FAR IF POINT 1 OF MY ARGUMENT GETS EXPANDED BY ODA

Assuming point 1 can lead to significant differences in durability, both in a positive and in a negative way, all that has happened so far would make sense.

Kaidou sees scarbads, takes a mental "debuff" to his Haki, against the united Haki of the VERY determined scabards. (-1 to Kaidou, +1 Kinemon/9RS)

Kaidou then takes further "damage" to his haki by actually BEING wounded by people he found so beneath him. (-1 to Kaidou)

Then his men are pretty much all defeated, including one of his top 3. While I don´t think he cares that much about his men, it doesnt build any confidence
(so think of this a +0 moment, which in case of Jack´s victory could´ve maybe been a +1)

Kinemon then sees his Mink allies falling and wants to step in, but is stopped by Inu and Neko, and has to bid his time while being reminded of the costs of this fight and its stakes (+1 to Kinemon)

Then he fires his go to attack which pretty much fries anything and it gets COUNTERED by someone who should be dead, which again would to me would indicate further damage (-1). And lets remember that even if Kaidou is strong, Kinemon´s style does have a fire cutting techinique that even Zoro couldn´t replicate at first glance ( a indicator of skill, not power). (Also this being A VERY SPECIFC "COUNTER" situation, I´d say this is a x2)

This makes the final score of "buffs and debuffs" at a -3 to Kaidou and +4 to Kinemon, which to me would justify the superficial wounds Kaidou has taken.

And in hindsight, this would even explain Kinemon´s poor showings at Punk Hazard and Dressrosa, as he was under a lot of emotional duress (Momo gone, rescue Kanjuro, Momo´s safety uncertain again after Big Mom´s ship appears, plus the whole time jump thing).

Spoiler: More elaboration, read only if you want to critize what I said here

Yes, I do know we have already seen that Haki does weaken with emotional duress, just like with BM (Physical has been covered long ago with Aokiji Vs WB and does not apply here), but I do say that BM is a very extreme example that inquires further examples, because she is a exception among exceptions, sporting high durability ever since she was a kid and having some actual mental disorders. Which is why I want this to be more explored.

All great ideas, let me add something to this,

3) Feats for Mihawk.

 

[Pirate Queen]

The latest episode shows Sanji absolutely BODY XDrake lol

It was so cool to see because Sanji is always getting the short end of the stick.

Toei down Sanji justice after making the mistake of showing PG1 recovering from Sanji's assault.

And all without the Raid Suit loll

 

[Fox666]

Kaido got cut by Kinemon wasn't expecting his ability to cut through fire. There's not much more to it.

The latest episode shows Sanji absolutely BODY XDrake lol

It was so cool to see because Sanji is always getting the short end of the stick.

Toei down Sanji justice after making the mistake of showing PG1 recovering from Sanji's assault.

And all without the Raid Suit loll

That's one weird scene for the anime to include.

Sanji failed to defeat Page One, but he took down X Drake who is even stronger without the Raid Suit...

 

[LadyVados]

Nah, Mihawk isn't unless your argument now is that Jozu and Vista could beat Whitebeard another Yonko like Kaido and Big Mom who are pushed as his equals. Kinemon is YC lvl and when Franky harmed Kaido? I never see that around ever. Mihawk can hurt him, but not defeat him as he still be defeated easily than him trying to beat Yonko as shown.

Where do you get Jozu and Vista being stronger than Mihawk from ? Neither of them landed a single hit on him or did any damage.

Franky damaged Big Mom.

Yes, Jozu blocked one attack from Mihawk but Jozu’s body is as hard as Seastone which BM was canonically unable to break so he’d easily block an attack from Big Mom or Kaido as well. They’d have to use their fire attacks to try and burn him through his diamond skin. Or use internal destruction Haki if they have it.

 

[HereNThere]

The latest episode shows Sanji absolutely BODY XDrake lol

It was so cool to see because Sanji is always getting the short end of the stick.

Toei down Sanji justice after making the mistake of showing PG1 recovering from Sanji's assault.

And all without the Raid Suit loll

He needs more concrete portrayals like that in the manga, rather than the off panelings. It wouldn't even take much space.

Toei tossing in Drake's line about Sanji taking down Page One was also nice. Despite the fight being incomplete, Drake recognized that Page One was weaker than Sanji. Again, would've been nice if that was in the manga.

 

[McNuss]

That was the worst I have ever seen.

Fuck the Raid Suit and Fuck Super Sayan, here comes Super Sonic (the Hedgehog).

What happened with X Drake's brain? Why is he not reacting at all/moving in slow motion?

Why the absurd spins before the finish?
This looks like a subpar teaser for a video game rather than an adaptation of the Manga.

If anyone thinks that Sanji, even without Raid Suit in Oda's Manga universe can low diff X Drake and make him look like a clown, then I don't know.

First they turned Zoro vs Killer into a laser beam show and now this.

The damage they cause with that is insane. There is nothing worse than the Sanji fans, sorry.

Like even still people think Sanji will beat a Calamity. You think Sanji can solo the entire Mink Tribe in Sulong? An arc after a bunch of Charlotte Rookie Children gave him serious trouble?

All these "supposed" Sanji fans want is to have him be a blonde Zoro with kicks. They don't even get the character and don't like a single aspect of him either.

The anime team knows this fully well anyways. They do this because it generates klicks. This is disgusting. A story, even an adaptation of it should be about the authors vision, not about the fanbase's demands. Even less so if these "fans" don't even understand the character they are supposedly fans of.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

That was the worst I have ever seen.

Fuck the Raid Suit and Fuck Super Sayan, here comes Super Sonic (the Hedgehog).

What happened with X Drake's brain? Why is he not reacting at all/moving in slow motion?

Why the absurd spins before the finish?
This looks like a subpar teaser for a video game rather than an adaptation of the Manga.

If anyone thinks that Sanji, even without Raid Suit in Oda's Manga universe can low diff X Drake and make him look like a clown, then I don't know.

First they turned Zoro vs Killer into a laser beam show and now this.

The damage they cause with that is insane. There is nothing worse than the Sanji fans, sorry.

Like even still people think Sanji will beat a Calamity. You think Sanji can solo the entire Mink Tribe in Sulong? An arc after a bunch of Charlotte Rookie Children gave him serious trouble?

All these "supposed" Sanji fans want is to have him be a blonde Zoro with kicks. They don't even get the character and don't like a single aspect of him either.

The anime team knows this fully well anyways. They do this because it generates klicks. This is disgusting. A story, even an adaptation of it should be about the authors vision, not about the fanbase's demands. Even less so if these "fans" don't even understand the character they are supposedly fans of.

You sound bitter bro... relax
No one’s said Sanji is YC level. Luffy that beat cracker wasn’t a YC level fighter... its growth in battle.

Imagine crying cos the anime expanded that Sanji could go toe to toe with someone of P1 calibre.
He didn’t defeat Drake.. he floored him so he could get away. That way less damage than P1 took lol

 

[Ramen]

That was the worst I have ever seen.

Fuck the Raid Suit and Fuck Super Sayan, here comes Super Sonic (the Hedgehog).

What happened with X Drake's brain? Why is he not reacting at all/moving in slow motion?

Why the absurd spins before the finish?
This looks like a subpar teaser for a video game rather than an adaptation of the Manga.

If anyone thinks that Sanji, even without Raid Suit in Oda's Manga universe can low diff X Drake and make him look like a clown, then I don't know.

First they turned Zoro vs Killer into a laser beam show and now this.

The damage they cause with that is insane. There is nothing worse than the Sanji fans, sorry.

Like even still people think Sanji will beat a Calamity. You think Sanji can solo the entire Mink Tribe in Sulong? An arc after a bunch of Charlotte Rookie Children gave him serious trouble?

All these "supposed" Sanji fans want is to have him be a blonde Zoro with kicks. They don't even get the character and don't like a single aspect of him either.

The anime team knows this fully well anyways. They do this because it generates klicks. This is disgusting. A story, even an adaptation of it should be about the authors vision, not about the fanbase's demands. Even less so if these "fans" don't even understand the character they are supposedly fans of.

 

[McNuss]

I am mad because 90% of One Piece's Western audience now thinks that Sanji without Raid Suit can low-diff Drake.

The much smaller alterations of Whitebeard vs Akainu created tremendous damage to the One Piece community. Things like this will ultimately fracture the community into Manga followers, anime-onlys and the confused.

The majority of my friends are anime-onlys. I already can't talk much about One Piece with them due to spoilers, but nowadays they are experiencing a completely different medium altogether.

 

[Ramen]

I am mad because 90% of One Piece's Western audience now thinks that Sanji without Raid Suit can low-diff Drake.

The much smaller alterations of Whitebeard vs Akainu created tremendous damage to the One Piece community. Things like this will ultimately fracture the community into Manga followers, anime-onlys and the confused.

The majority of my friends are anime-onlys. I already can't talk much about One Piece with them due to spoilers, but nowadays they are experiencing a completely different medium altogether.

Literally who cares about those people think? Are you reading this series for them or what?

 

[I Am Atomic]

Literally who cares about those people think? Are you reading this series for them or what?

Great thing about manga/anime is that you get to socialise with your friends with it as the subject. However, if the said manga and anime is different from one another, then the conversation is everyone trying to correct each other.

 

[Ramen]

Great thing about manga/anime is that you get to socialise with your friends with it as the subject. However, if the said manga and anime is different from one another, then the conversation is everyone trying to correct each other.

I understand that but getting all angry and flustered about what other people are going to think in terms of PL? Seems pointless.