Soon after the encounter at the Galley LA, it is explained that their spirits were down and that they would fare much better now that they knew about the situation. At least for Luffy it is explained that Aokiji was the trigger for "Gear" and not CP9.
Franky is new and defeats two CP9 agents without major difficulties before running out of Cola.
Nami already had her new climate tact before the fight started.
Zoro fought Jabra and Kaku with Usopp cuffed to his hands.
They all fight off 100 Marine Captains during the Buster Call.
Baroque Works is the same:
Sanji had already defeated a Fishman underwater and pretty much mid/low diffs Mr. 2. Broken ribs are a minor injury.
Nami has a one shot tool built into her weapon and just didn't read the manual before. Had she done, Ms Doublefinger would have been a non-issue.
Aokiji was the trigger for him realizing that he needs to get stronger, but Luffy developed Gear 2nd after witnessing the CP9’s Soru. Aokiji
and CP9 are the impetus for Luffy’s growth as they were far stronger than anything they’d been facing up until that point. That’s not to say that Baroque Works wasn’t a threat, but as the arcs continued on up to Sabaody, it became clear that that was the caliber of opponents that they’d be facing constantly.
The only CP9 agent Franky didn’t have issues with is Nero. Fukuro had beat the crap out of Franky, even after he recovered with Soda. Franky himself admitted that the fight was tough.
Nami had the Clima-Tact, but the fight was still tough and Nami was close to losing several times. She didn’t outright stomp Kalifa, who was superior to Nami in many ways.
Zoro fought the two while handicapped with Usopp, but they were not going all out. When Zoro and Usopp split up, Kaku got serious enough to the point where Zoro couldn’t even get past him to save Usopp and Nami from Jabra. And he was going against a Kaku who wasn’t even using his full Yontouryu technique. A technique that pushed Zoro due to it’s onslaught of slices.
It’s not like they could just up and take a break in the heart of enemy territory. They kept moving because they had no other choice but to. Pretty sure, like after Baroque Works, it was said that the crew slept for days after the fight to recover.
Sanji didn’t beat Kurobi underwater. He had to bring him to the surface to beat on him as easily as he did. Besides, as I pointed out in my initial post, I was referring to Baroque Works and Ennis Lobby in particular. The Strawhats didn’t have troubles in their earlier adventures and walked right through a lot of their opponents.
Nami having issues with the manual doesn’t take away Miss Doublefinger’s threat to her. She could’ve easily killed Nami several times in the fight, even after Nami got used to her Clima-Tact. Nevermind that Tornado Tempo is an all or nothing move and Nami had to put herself in a risky situation to even get it off.
What does it matter wether it is physical strenght, intellect or technology that grant victory?
And again, the obstacle in the Ms Doublefinger fight is Usopp's manual and not Ms DF.
I never said any of those don’t matter or don’t lead to legitimate victories. What I said was Nami’s opponents are usually superior to her and can easily kill her as quicky and easily as she can beat them. It’s her strategy and trickery that allows her to get by without being merked instantly. And those strategies push her to come up with gambles that are generally all or nothing due to the threat her opponents pose to her. Her weapons give her the potential to win instantly, but her opponents are not going to allow her to instantly do that. Which brings me back to my point that she did push herself to win both the Doublefinger fight and the Khalifa fight.
That Sanji won't defeat King or Queen.
Yet to be seen. Arc isn’t over yet.
The way the Gifters have been portrayed they are one-shot for the Sulong Minks, so it must have come down to just Jack and Nanki. King and Queen are stronger than Jack, meaning they would have likely been capable of the same feat without the Number.
Gifters are, on the whole, weaker than Sulong Minks, but it’s highly unlikely that it just came down to Jack and Nanki. Some Minks had regular swords sticking out of their bodies, similar to Jack, so the Gifters were clearly putting in a bit of work at the least. Jack ended up being the last line of defense, but that doesn’t mean he (and Nanki) were doing everything.
Blueno felt that kick.
Daifuku is overrated. Just 300M despite being a pirate veteran from Roger's era. Bounty isn't strenght, but if you got 40 years of time as a Big Mom officer, 300M is not that great. Basically Daifuku has been portrayed as a cocky idiot.
Blueno felt it but, according to Kaku, it didn’t even break through his Tekkai.
I never said anything implying otherwise about Daifuku.
My main point is that Sanji has been shown to be incapable of handling a certain level of opponent early on in an arc and come back to take on stronger opponents or easily handle the person he fought earlier. He’s done it before along with Zoro and Luffy.
This isn't just Shonen, it is the second best selling fiction series created by a single author. And soon it will be Nr 1 and it is super funny because Oda embraces what JKR detests.
There are quality standards behind One Piece and it has definitely moved far away from the average shonen.
And stronger opponents are only expected due to Dragon Ball. But One Piece isn't even a battle Shonen. Bleach is, but definitely not One Piece. One Piece is about adventure, and unlike battle Shonen, adventures don't follow a straight line.
Do you consider Absalom above Jabra as well?
But it’s still a shounen at heart and still follows shounen tropes. We hold it to higher standard, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t any less of a shounen than it’s peers.
That’s an opinion I’ve never truly got behind. One Piece doesn’t use battles to progress the story as many series do, but the vast majority of it’s arcs still end in fights. It has a battle system and it has vs. chapters. Stronger opponents are expected because the series itself established them and flat out told us that opponents get stronger the deeper we get into the New World. The whole reason for the time skip was for the crew to get stronger so that they can protect themselves and each other against these higher caliber opponents.
Of course not. Absolam and Ryuma (to a lesser extent) were opponents who were weaker than their previous foes. However, the arc still ended in a fight against Zombie Oars, which took the entire crew to push themselves to take down, and Moriah, which pushed Luffy to the brink once again, and prompted the crew to become worried about their future fights as they knew they’d be facing stronger opponents. The arc was then capped off by the crew being confronted by Kuma, yet another opponent of monstrous strength, that would’ve led to their complete and utter defeat were he not an ally to them.
You cannot say that, especially since the actual levels of these characters are super vague currently. Nevermind that, again, we’ve had these characters grow to the levels they need to to face whatever opponents when the time calls for it.
We see the Decuplets fusion facing the children in one panel, then facing Judge together with Snack immediately in the next, implying that the children have been defeated.
And in the very next chapter, we see the Sun Pirates getting thrown around and exploded to hell, yet, as I mentioned, Jinbe is now in Wano and said he and his crew had a party.
We saw the Vinsmoke children still fighting after they confronted the Decuplets, implying that they either got away or defeated them. Ichiji had even stated that they completed their mission and they could fall back.
I expect them to be fine as well, but definitely not because they won that fight as context implies otherwise. The way Judge has been portrayed, he can't have beaten the decuplets plus Snack either.
I think there is a chance that Judge is dead. Would certainly fit the Imperial Germany/Nazi theme.
I mean, Snack isn’t with Big Mom in Wano. Neither are the Decuplets, so for all we know, they could’ve been the ones who were injured and couldn't take the journey with them.
Last we saw, Judge and his kids were still alive, still fighting, and were preparing to retreat. They were injured (as was Jinbe), but they were still up and about.
Sanji got immediately overwhelmed by King regardless of the Suit. It is good that it protects him from damage, but that does not make you defeat King.
Actually it seems like you seem to be the one that tries to find an excuse here, because your accusation does make no sense.
I said that the Suit can't give him the to defeat the entire Mink tribe in Sulong.
The reason why I brought up the defensive capabilities of the suit was because of your comment...
WCI’s final panels imply Germa loosing. That’s 5 Raid suits, including one that is for someone without genetic exoskeleton as well (Judge’s).
The way I read it, it seemed like you were downplaying the capabilities of the suit. Now I could be wrong about that and if I am, I apologize.
That being said, the tools may be the same, but the users clearly aren’t. Sanji’s use of the suit has been vastly more impressive than what we’ve seen his siblings do and he has yet to go all out in it yet.
So while Sanji got overwhelmed at that moment, it doesn’t mean a rematch would go the same way. We know what the suit by itself can do, but we need to see what Sanji fighting seriously will do with it.
What has shown of the suit is simply not enough.
As I mentioned above, we still need to see what Sanji can actually do with it when fighting seriously. He’s yet to use any named techniques with it.
Yes, Oda could always create something new. Fortunately, he is a pretty good writer that cares for quality.
Our argumentations here can't include unknown of that magnitude though.
Yes they likely all trained, but I don't see the necessity of Sanji defeating King or Queen when Oda just reintroduced Jinbe and Marco. Two characters that actually have the feats to fight with them.
Since the Nami/Usopp vs Page One/Ulti are all about abusive "brother/sister" relationships, thematically the one that fits Sanji is Who's Who.
Whom do you think is Who's Who gonna fight?
People are so hard at jumping on the Sanji vs King/Queen train that they completely forget that there are still three more Tobi Roppo with undecided match-ups.
There are also more Strawhats than Tobi Roppo.
Personally I think King/Queen are group fights. Sounds a lot more plausible. There are so many significant fighters on both sides that not everything can be broken down into 1v1s.
They also don't have to be defeated by the Strawhats. Marco or a return of O-Lin are other strong possibilities. The former also needs to be occupied for a long time, because otherwise, given that he is immortal, he creates a lot of problems. Credit here, despite the fact that I always highlight the "circumstances", has to go to Luffy, and if Marco isn't occupied, he could aid anyone Vs Kaido forever. It is a very similar scenario to Dressrosa where the Birdcage and other stuff was preventing many powerhouses from aiding Luffy. Marco isn't someone that can just watch and comment fights.
I respect Oda’s writing ability a lot, but I don’t think he’s above doing something like pulling something out of thin air as he’s done it before.
You’re correct, it can’t, but it shouldn’t be completely unexpected either. Oda has thrown many curve balls our way.
Kidd and Law don’t necessarily have the feats to help Luffy fight Kaido, but that’s what’s most likely going to happen. And if we’re going by feats, Marco and Jinbe would be better off heading straight towards Kaido rather than anyone else aside from Luffy, because they are the only ones who have the pedigrees to do so. Plus, Marco is just an ally. The story is following Luffy and his crew, so it should be expected that they will get into significant fights.
I was thinking that Who’s Who will fight against Zoro, since he’s in possession of a rather ornate sword and it’s been consistently present with him But I’m not sure.
My original theory was that Zoro, Who’s Who, and King would fight in a three way battle, while Sanji, Sasaki, and Queen would fight in their own three way battle.
I then moved on to the possibility that Who’s Who would take out King in a fight, then Zoro would fight him since he’d prove to be the better opponent.
Right now I’m not sure.
I’m open to Sanji fighting a Tobi Roppo, but that’s because, as my match ups above imply, I think at least Who’s Who and Sasaki are on the levels of the All Stars.
There’s more Strawhats that Tobi Roppo, but when you include the All Stars, things match up much better.
If the Scabbards were still on ground level, I’d think we’d be heading for group fights, but as it stands, there aren’t enough people to go around for that.
Big Mom is a big problem, but that’s where I generally see Marco dealing with since he’s the only one capable of doing so. He’s already with Pero, so the possibility is there. Unless, as you said, O-Lin comes back. But if she were to come back, she’d need to be fighting against Kaido because anything else is still much below her level.
Katakuri showcases he actually can fully well deal with Snakemans Culverin, and the improved CoO.
As I said, I don’t disagree. But Luffy clearly got stronger throughout the fight, which was the point I was making.
But we are already seeing this changes. Sanji went from being possibly killed by Doflamingo without Law's interference to surviving King.
Usopp got a power-up in Dressrosa he never showcased in action again, Nami hasn't shown the extent of her most recent climate tact either as both vs Cracker and her part in vs the enraged army were offscreened.
Sanji just barely got his new Raid Suit and Zoro has already gotten a new sword without ever showing his top end before.
Franky said he upgraded the Shogun and Jinbe only just joined.
The majority of the Strawhats doesn't even have their latest power-up resolved and you are already postulating new ones.
The changes will be clearly seen when we see the Strawhats beat opponents of a certain level. Sanji lost against Doflamingo and was barely able to put up a fight against King during their clash. That doesn’t give us any concrete details on where he currently is strength wise in the world, especially since he hasn’t had an actual, prolonged fight in the time between those two confrontations.
That’s my point, we need to see what they are fully capable of with these new tools and abilities they’ve barely put to use throughout the time skip. My argument isn’t that they need brand spanking new power ups, I’m saying we need to see what they are fully capable of with the upgrades they’ve already got.
You didn't believe the Scabbards with their Sulong Dukes and the former Oden rival Ashura Doji would be capable of injuring Kaido? That basically means you expected them to fail entirely, so how do you think Kaido gets defeated, Luffy just punches him really hard until he says stop after we had all these other boss-battles relying so heavily on circumstances?
Not before they stabbed Kaido, no. I, like other folks, figured that The Dukes would be going after Jack in revenge for the Minks. I had no idea who Ashura Doji would be going against. I didn’t think Kaido would be harmed by anyone early on and Luffy (or Zoro or Big Mom) would’ve been the ones to kick off him getting harmed.
From what I recall, there was no one here that thought that the Scabbards could harm Kaido. I remember folks being up in arms about them being able to do so when it was finally revealed.
We saw that Luffy had recently gotten the tool to deal internal damage to Kaido with his ability to channel haki into his opponents. The series flat out said that was a rare ability. The way things were gearing up, Luffy was the only one around who could do the deed. Zoro as well.
I never expected for Luffy to do it alone however. I’ve been figuring that Kaido would be going down due to attrition for the longest time, so no, I didn’t think that Luffy would end the fight with a flurry of punches.
Luffy is already a lot higher than them by having abilities that they don't posses, Roger was never implied to be stronger than Whitebeard either, lucked out of his encounter with Shiki and avoided a direct confrontation with Big Mom.
This Manga is not about becoming the strongest in the world, that is not even a topic for the main character of this series. He wants to be the Pirate King, and whatever happens will happen for that cause.
I think, if Oda wants to keep the stakes high, then scaling Luffy to Kaido level right now is a very bad idea. There is another hostile Yonko and up to 6 Admirals (I consider Sengoku concluded and am reffering to Kuzan btw) waiting. If Luffy scales like you propose, he will win his finale fight before One Piece with his little finger.
The way this arc is designed Kaido can only be defeated by special circumstances, the same as in any other arc before, which do cheapen Luffy's victories but also allow for more exciting following arcs.
He has abilities that they apparently don’t, but he’s nowhere near their level of power at the moment.
I’ve had this discussion with other folks already and I know I’m likely in the minority in this, but I do believe that Luffy needs to overcome all of the current Yonkou (at least Kaido, Big Mom, and Shanks) before he becomes the Pirate King.
Aside from the fact that Oda had him state that he wants to do it, at this point in the series’ timeline, competition to rule the seas is much more fierce than it was during Roger’s Era and everyone is now aiming for Roger’s throne, when before, it was just Roger doing his thing with everyone else minding their own business with no real goal.
You are misunderstanding me. I am not expecting Luffy to beat Kaido alone. You said that the top is defined by Yonkou and Admirals. That’s true. And I believe that, by the end, Luffy needs to overcome the lot of them to be where he wants to be, i.e. Pirate King. Not right now. But near or at EoS. And as of right now, he’s far from that goal as he can’t even comfortably fight one Yonkou.
If Zoro's maximum potential is Mihawk then Sanji's must be below. Again makes no sense for him to either defeat King or Queen just now, as these aren't that far from Mihawk either.
I personally think they are pretty far from Mihawk. I think he’s on the level of a Yonkou, so there would still be plenty of room for growth for Zoro. Sanji being just under that would be the same. And since there is no telling when Zoro will actually fight Mihawk, that could be stretched out for as long as need be.
Age actually does matter a lot and if you compare all character biographies, when they started, when they hit their prime and when their decline started, you will get the pattern.
Luffy is the protagonist, and Sabo his older brother who was already ahead of him as a child. Both already showed insane growth back then which Sanji didn't.
I mean, look at where the Strawhat are right now. Half of them are in their 20’s and they are fighting a Yonkou crew. Two of their main rival crews are around the age and they are doing the same.
Shanks became a Yonkou in his 20’s. Kaido took over Wano, likely, in his 20’s. Koby is, I think under 20, and in the Marines Special Forces. People develop at different speeds and the Strawhats are developing exceedingly fast.
Sanji’s growth sucked as a kid, but he clearly caught up after he ran into Zeff. And, of course, his adventures with the crew allow him to continue to grow.
But if Sanji then progresses like you say he will be the single Yonko after his next two fights.
Or his progress has to halt for the rest of the series.
Both doesn't make sense.
Him beating Queen or King does not mean he’s on the path to solo a Yonkou. At most, it’ll just put him in a position where he can take on a Yonkou Commander without issue. He should be an underdog in this arc, so if he clashes with someone of a similar level later, he’ll be able to be an equal. At least, that’s how I see it. I don’t think it’ll be all or nothing. The Strawhats will just finally be at the top and will be able to hang out with those who are at the top.
Yes.
I don’t believe I did. Mihawk is so far above 90% of the series, it doesn’t matter who you put in that situation, the end result would be the same for the majority of them. Kaku is stronger than Daz Bones, but in front of Mihawk, it doesn’t matter because he’s going down to the WSS.
You name techniques that they have as if these are the best techniques one could have.
Level 5 is for 100M+ belly Pirates who certainly have their own techniques up their sleeves. The wolves are intended to keep these in check. I don't think anyone from Blueno to Khalifa would be put into Level 5, they aren't like the Supernova, and to be honest they are also below the level 4 Daz Bones. Blueno would be 4, the others Level 3 - just like Bentham and Galdino.
I name techniques because those techniques would clearly give them an advantage over the wolves you are claiming they’d have issues with. Tekkai keeps them from getting bitten. Soru and Geppou keep them from getting overwhelmed.
We don’t even know the names of any of the pirates in Level 5, much less any techniques they may or may not have. There is nothing stating that the majority of them were anymore capable than CP9 agents, who are, for all intents and purposes, the WG’s special assassination crew. The only pirate that would’ve been worth anything in that level would’ve been Luffy and Ivakov. We know what the CP9 agents are capable of, and compared to the Baroque Works agents imprisoned, they are the stronger group.
I’m not sure what levels they’d be put at, but if they went through the exact same scenario as Bentham did, I’m sure they’d fair better than he did.
But the nature of the fruit is part of the strenght and a feat is a feat. Essentially I get comfirmed here again.
Mr. 3 also tried assassinating two legendary Pirates, the greatest of their era, and would have been successful if it weren't for the Strawhats. That was a job totally of CP9 calibre.
The huge gaps you postulate between the characters simply don't exist. That Mr. 3 is not a strenght based character is clear nonetheless, but as far as comparing villain groups goes one cannot claim CP9 to be actually much above Baroque Works. I never said they are equal but the huge jumps aren't there here.
That just means that his fruit was advantageous in that particular scenario against Magellan and his poison. It doesn’t prove that he’s capable of going against any of the CP9 members easily. You could use the exact same argument for any number of fruit users who have an ability that puts them in an advantageous position against other fruit users. Luffy was shown to be outmaneuvered by Enel due to Mantra throughout their fight, but because of his fruit, he was able to get a win in with no real damage. That doesn’t mean that Luffy was stronger than Enel when the fight began.
Maybe? We don’t know much about their actual missions. That seems under their payroll though as they were dealing with Ancient Weapons and Revolutionaries. They are the special agents of the WG for a reason.
The Strawhats that overcame CP9 would have an easier time against the Baroque Work agents, with the exclusion of Crocodile, because Luffy still didn’t know haki.
I never said I wasn't making assumptions here. Hitting 500M was already accredited as a huge feat for Luffy, and it set him one step ahead from his fellow Worst Generation members. Page One and Ulti aren't even from the Worst Generation, but within a similar age group than the majority of it. Wouldn't make much sense for them to be more than 300M and Ulti seems to be the more dangerous one so 200M for Page One seems appropriate.
The only members of the Worst Generation they are close in age to are Luffy, Kidd and Zoro. Everyone else is older. And those three have higher bounties than the 300M limit you think they deserve to be at. Sabo is 22, the same age as Ulti, and his bounty is 600M. This is why I say age doesn’t matter, because it all depends on what they’ve done to get their bounties. And if they’ve managed to impress Kaido to be as close to their inner circle as they are, I don’t think they’d be at just 200M.
Squardo calls Whitebeard as his father and Whitebeard's organization is a patriarchy.
Squardo listens to Whitebeard's orders and follows his commands, and has subordinates below himself which gives him an executive position in Whitebeard's organization.
Tamago, Bege and, Bobbins were commanding lower ranked crewmembers within the Big Mom Pirates which makes them executives.
Big Mom essentially supercedes three different but intertwined organizations.
Her Kingdom, Tottoland, in which she is the Queen and her children the royal family, of which some are the Ministers who govern over the different islands and various subjects.
Then the family itself in which higher children in general seem to have more authority than the younger children, though it is not set into stone and Perospero's self expressed claim to be the heir is disputed.
And then the Big Mom Pirates, in which all children who are old enough are executives, lead by the three (formerly four) Sweet Commanders. Below the Charlotte Children follow the Chess Piece Combattants (though it is unclear actually if there are just three or many) which have authority over various tasks, tax collection, Poneglyph security, abduction, tea party security...
The Big Mom Pirates are a Monarchy. As such, the royals are always of a higher authority in the military than the lower born, regardless of their skills. Tamago is stronger than 80% of the children, yet they supercede him in rank. He still made Smoothie listen to his call and is included in their strategic meetings.
The Beast Pirates are a meritocracy. There is an internal power race to determine rank. However, the Calamities have been in their position for over 20 years, and that includes Jack who was just 8 years old back then. If no one has replaced them yet that means their strenght has been unmatched for 20 years. There does not seem to be a strong continuity as the whole of the Headliners just acquired their powers fairly recently.
He’s still not a Commander though. And it’s highly likely the people he was ordering around was his own crew members since he’s his own Captain. From what we’ve seen, he isn’t an executive member in the crew, just an ally.
That just makes them higher ranked than the ones they order around. Executives imply they have major say in the actions or planning of the crew. The only one of similar rank that had anything close to that was Bege, but that was only for the wedding and he was married to one of Big Mom’s kids.
The other three appear to be nothing more than combatants and enforcers. When stuff hit the fan, it was only a certain selection of Ministers that were calling the shots, Katakuri, Smoothie, Pero, and Oven.
We could probably argue about this all day, but mainly, I don’t think Ulti and Page One are comparable to that particular group of Big Mom’s crew (the chess pieces) or Squard. I think they hold a higher position relevant to their crew.
But plot significance has nothing to do with strenght and now they are facing Usopp and Nami.
It does in this case because of how Kaido’s crew functions. They are among his most trusted members and he clearly wants the strongest and most capable crewmembers to be around him due to it being a meritocracy.
You are basically saying it, Page One can take more than Bobbin. There really aren't that many characters in between though. I am honestly not sure if Page One supercedes the Opera Quintuplets which are CoA users and "defeated" Luffy. Probably some Grand Fleet Captains...
He’s shown more than Bobbins. Bobbins didn’t do anything or show any feat that makes him stronger than Page One. And the only point of comparison between the two is how they dealt with Sanji’s kicks...and Page One easily ate several of them (as well as an Elephant Gun) and kept trucking with no real damage.
Yamato could have clubbed Ulti to death had he wanted to.
Probably.
Who said anything about that?
You claimed that Page One is weaker than Pekoms. I’m listing the attacks that Page One was capable of withstanding and comparing them to Pekoms (and Bobbins) own feats. And from what I can tell, Page One has the superior feats.
The reason why we implore this system is because these characters have actually comparable feats and not because they are equal in rank and a numerical designation is bollocks anyways without having their full set of feats.
I know they aren’t equal in rank, but they are clearly presented on a higher level than the other crew members and are shown to be directly under the Captain. The numeral designation just makes it easier because there is usually the First Mate, The Second Mate, and then whoever brings up the rear.
That's a faulty conclusion. Being below the Calamities means being below the Calamities. Why should it mean being equal with anyone else?
Because the series has flat out implied that there are characters among the Tobi Roppo who could be considered on the same level of strength as the Calamities. Several times. Again, that was the reward for them finding Yamato. The chance to fight a Calamity and prove that they are deserving of the position.
Oven and Daifuku are overrated anyways though. Niwatori is quite likely stronger then both of them, given that he is a whole 129M belly above them, despite all of them being veterans.
I doubt he was. Bounties don’t equate to strength as is mentioned several times in the series, but Oven was hyped up in the same breath as Katakuri, Smoothie, Pero, and Compote. Tamago didn’t get any form of hype.
