One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[redzrae]

It has been revealed viva a vivre card info T6 bounties

Character rewards revealed:

King's Bounty is 1.39 billion
Whos who Bounty is 546 million
Sasaki's Bounty is 472 million
Black Maria Bounty is 480 million
Ulti's Bounty is 400 million
Page One's Bounty is 290 million

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2021 ---

It was also mentioned that all T6 are capable of COO and COA

 

[kkck]

Whos whos bounty is way higher than I would have expected. 500 mil is pretty much territory of legendary pirates... Even as a former WG agent we know the information he had was not valuable enough to have retained its worth until current times. I suppose they were all former captains but its weird to think that robin and franky are legitimately capable of taking people who broke the 400 and 500 mil milestones.

 

[Fourofjacks]

Think many are too harsh on flying 6 and beast pirates. It's hard to compare since most of the SH that beat flying 6 we have not seen in fights.

Oven / page one equalish? From the way sanji handled them.
Who's who is in good company of characters that have been able to deal damage to jimbe.
Ulti has been shown to be pretty strong.
Perospero is good vs fodder, losing arm to explosion doesn't seem great given Pell didn't lose limbs to a much bigger bomb?

The supernovas seem to roughly near high YC level. Apart from the ones fighting BM & kaido, we know Urogue beat snack. Not sure if we should include them given their unreliable loyalties... But if we include Apoo and Hawkins they should be able to handle Perospero and snack. Would tip the battle of officers in beast pirate favour. (ignoring X drake and Capone given they are openly doing their own thing...)

 

[catagon87]

Think many are too harsh on flying 6 and beast pirates. It's hard to compare since most of the SH that beat flying 6 we have not seen in fights.

People get butthurt over the weirdest things on these forums. There's more diversity in opinion on the OP subreddit. We had people cheering for Luffy to get defeated in WCI and upset that he "won". Every arc has some stronger, newer bad guy, and every arc has people who are ultimately disappointed that every Straw Hat wasn't brought to the brink of death "defeating" them. Sometimes you just have to expedite things.

 

[Fox666]

Think many are too harsh on flying 6 and beast pirates. It's hard to compare since most of the SH that beat flying 6 we have not seen in fights.

The Strawhats (except for Jinbe) collectively became 3 times stronger mid-Wano arc.

That's all there's to it.

 

[AmitDS]

Reasons why people believe Mihawk is top tier or at least stronger than Yonko who wield swords:

1. MIhawk was given by Oda the title of "World's strongest swordsman" because of that title, anyone in One Piece who wields a sword is by definition inferior to him in strength.
2. He was rivals/had various duels with Shanks prior to 10 years ago when Shanks was not a Yonko, but once Shanks lost his right arm, Mihawk decided to not duel him anymore because Mihawk had no interest in fighting a one-armed person.
3. He is Zolo's end goal to defeat, therefore he MUST be Zolo's end of series opponent and by manga definition, whoever is EOS villain/opponent must be insanely strong, stronger than anybody faced before them.
4. If I am missing anything else, please let me know.

There are many flaws behind this reasoning.

5. He's Zoro's EOS opponent. By virtue of this, Yonkou+++ tier Grandmaster Woro's final opponent must be some new transcendent power level beyond anything we've ever seen before.

Delusions of grandeur at its finest

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2021 ---

Kizaru and Whitebeard don't appear to be (Whitebeard's weapon isn't even a sword even if it's a supreme grade blade). In Big Mom's case, however, she's a swordswoman: she's using named sword styles and techniques and she's good at them.

Regardless of Mihawk being stronger or weaker than her, she's one.

Her "sword techniques" are not anywhere comparable to the techniques of actual swordsmen we've seen (for eg. Zoro, Vista, Mihawk). Most if not all of her Napoleon attacks are not real Kenjutsu/Kendo; she simply wields a sword and channels her brute strength though it a la Kaido and his kanabo. This is not even factoring in her plethora of other powers, homies, styles, etc., a trait that proves that she's not a "swordswoman."
Regardless of Mihawk's standing with Yonkou, Admirals and whoever else, to say Big Mom, the one sword-wielding person in the manga that basically epitomizes Zoro and King's sword-wielding =/=swordsmanship conversation, is a swordsman, is incorrect.

 

[Nie Li]

Her "sword techniques" are not anywhere comparable to the techniques of actual swordsmen we've seen (for eg. Zoro, Vista, Mihawk). Most if not all of her Napoleon attacks are not real Kenjutsu/Kendo; she simply wields a sword and channels her brute strength though it a la Kaido and his kanabo. This is not even factoring in her plethora of other powers, homies, styles, etc., a trait that proves that she's not a "swordswoman."
Regardless of Mihawk's standing with Yonkou, Admirals and whoever else, to say Big Mom, the one sword-wielding person in the manga that basically epitomizes Zoro and King's sword-wielding =/=swordsmanship conversation, is incorrect.

Her sword techniques are actually good even if she doesn't use them much and they go well beyond simply her brute strength.

Don't undersell Big Mom so much, she's a swordswoman who also has, as you say, a plethora of other powers.

 

[Pirate Queen]

"Luffy is the first opponent Kaido sees worthy of actually fighting serious against since Oden so he is in a very good mood right now."

Get wrecked scrubs

Shanks, who?
Big Mom, who?

 

[john ellis]

It's possible if zoro fights mihawk eos or after story he stomps mihawk like mihawk stomped him in the east blue. It doesn't have to be an even fight.

That said i think king's zoro's final opponent before mihawk. Honestly i think next arc or the arc after will be zoro vs miawhk.

Given by the end of wano zoro will probably be found out to be last blood of ryuma. Probably kills kaido and gets given the title "swordgod" gets assigned a new bounty of 1-2billion. At this point he's ready to fight mihawk. Now mihawk could be yonko level but honestly current zoro is atleast near the threshold of yonko level. I also think mihawk is slightly below yonko level anyway. So current zoro is nearly relative to mihawk.

Whos whos bounty is way higher than I would have expected. 500 mil is pretty much territory of legendary pirates... Even as a former WG agent we know the information he had was not valuable enough to have retained its worth until current times. I suppose they were all former captains but its weird to think that robin and franky are legitimately capable of taking people who broke the 400 and 500 mil milestones.

Honestly the flying six had to be comparable to whitebeard's lower commanders. I get people didn't like the fights. but lore wise it just had to make sense they were low yonko commander levels. Like as i thought Who's who could probably give snack a run for his money. Like where near end game The Straw hats are being morphed into PK level crew. Like this is luffy's God valley, he is beating the revived "rocks" crew, defeating not only 1 yonko but 2 yonko at once. This is the arc that will go down converting into the person who is actually capable of taking the throne of the pirate king.

 

[Nie Li]

It's possible if zoro fights mihawk eos or after story he stomps mihawk like mihawk stomped him in the east blue. It doesn't have to be an even fight.

I don't think Oda hates his readers.

 

[AmitDS]

Her sword techniques are actually good even if she doesn't use them much and they go well beyond simply her brute strength.

Don't undersell Big Mom so much, she's a swordswoman who also has, as you say, a plethora of other powers.

I'm not saying her sword techniques aren't solid, it's just that her sword is only one of the tools she uses to fight. Whereas in the cases of actual specialized swordsmen, their sword is their whole M.O.
And no, I'm not underselling BM, quite the opposite actually xD We both know you really don't care about respecting and underselling her lol She's a versatile fighter, one of her tools is her sword, Napoleon. There's a stark difference between how she fights and how for eg. Vista, Zoro or Mihawk fights. Her Hahaba and Haha no Hi are simple horizontal and vertical slashes respectively, that doesn't make her a swordsman. Ikkoku and Hakai can be done with other weapons like Brogy's axe (Hakoku) and Kaido's kanabo.

Ironically enough, King and BM are in the same boat here. They both use swords but King's not a swordsman, how is BM different in this situation? She's way further away from the idea of a "swordsman" on this wonky spectrum than King is. It stands out to me that King simply grabbing Zoro's swords and punching him was enough to deem him NOT a swordsman in Zoro's eye eyes but somehow BM with her bag of tricks doesn't do the same for her. We all know why she NEEDS to be a swordsman in this scenario.

 

[Nie Li]

I'm not saying her sword techniques aren't solid, it's just that her sword is only one of the tools she uses to fight. Whereas in the cases of actual specialized swordsmen, their sword is their whole M.O.
And no, I'm not underselling BM, quite the opposite actually xD We both know you really don't care about respecting and underselling her lol She's a versatile fighter, one of her tools is her sword, Napoleon. There's a stark difference between how she fights and how for eg. Vista, Zoro or Mihawk fights. Her Hahaba and Haha no Hi are simple horizontal and vertical slashes respectively, that doesn't make her a swordsman. Ikkoku and Hakai can be done with other weapons like Brogy's axe (Hakoku) and Kaido's kanabo.

Ironically enough, King and BM are in the same boat here. They both use swords but King's not a swordsman, how is BM different in this situation? She's way further away from the idea of a "swordsman" on this wonky spectrum than King is. It stands out to me that King simply grabbing Zoro's swords and punching him was enough to deem him NOT a swordsman in Zoro's eye eyes but somehow BM with her bag of tricks doesn't do the same for her. We all know why she NEEDS to be a swordsman in this scenario.

You really are underselling Big Mom because you're saying she's not a swordswoman and you're basing her sword techniques on just her brute strength, which is absurd (for example Luffy can't deliver any sword technique despite his vastly superhuman strength). Ikoku is a sword skill, and a powerful one at that.

In my post you chose to quote where I said she's a swordswoman I was making no implications about her and Mihawk; I was simply stating a fact: she's one. All this about being "pure swordsmen" or whatever are just fan talks. I get that you want Big Mom to be stronger than Mihawk, but you must differentiate between arguing whether Mihawk is stronger than any swordsman no matter what additional skills they have and arguing if Big Mom is a swordswoman, because she is one.

In other posts I have already said why Big Mom's and King's boats are very different, and it's not because "King knows how to throw a punch, omg, then he can't be a swordsman", that's ridiculous. King's not a swordsman because he himself said so: he has no need for styles and techniques, hence he's not a swordsman, just a brawler that carries a sword. Big Mom has not discarded techniques. She's more than only a swordswoman? Yes, but she's one.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2021 ---

Also:

We both know you really don't care about respecting and underselling her lol

Yes, I do. I have never, ever disrespected her or her strength. My belief of Mihawk's strength doesn't imply disrespecting any other character.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I'm not saying her sword techniques aren't solid, it's just that her sword is only one of the tools she uses to fight. Whereas in the cases of actual specialized swordsmen, their sword is their whole M.O.
And no, I'm not underselling BM, quite the opposite actually xD We both know you really don't care about respecting and underselling her lol She's a versatile fighter, one of her tools is her sword, Napoleon. There's a stark difference between how she fights and how for eg. Vista, Zoro or Mihawk fights. Her Hahaba and Haha no Hi are simple horizontal and vertical slashes respectively, that doesn't make her a swordsman. Ikkoku and Hakai can be done with other weapons like Brogy's axe (Hakoku) and Kaido's kanabo.

Ironically enough, King and BM are in the same boat here. They both use swords but King's not a swordsman, how is BM different in this situation? She's way further away from the idea of a "swordsman" on this wonky spectrum than King is. It stands out to me that King simply grabbing Zoro's swords and punching him was enough to deem him NOT a swordsman in Zoro's eye eyes but somehow BM with her bag of tricks doesn't do the same for her. We all know why she NEEDS to be a swordsman in this scenario.

Nah, your definitely not underselling Big Mom. I get what your saying and it's pretty solid. We don't need someone to tell us they aren't a swordsman to know they aren't a swordsman.

Take Queen. He wields a sword, even used it... no one is classifying him as a swordsman.

It's just one of his many tools in his arsenal.

 

[Nie Li]

Nah, your definitely not underselling Big Mom. I get what your saying and it's pretty solid. We don't need someone to tell us they aren't a swordsman to know they aren't a swordsman.

Take Queen. He wields a sword, even used it... no one is classifying him as a swordsman.

It's just one of his many tools in his arsenal.

Would you say Shiryu is not a swordsman now that he has eaten the invisibility fruit? I wouldn't. Big Mom is a swordswoman with an OP DF.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Would you say Shiryu is not a swordsman now that he has eaten the invisibility fruit? I wouldn't. Big Mom is a swordswoman with an OP DF.

I don't know enough about Shiryu. We have not seen him as much as we have seen Big Mom or Queen.

When we see him fight I will have a better understanding.

I will say he does wield a meito so I'd put my money on him being a swordsman but can't be sure.

I've seen more panels of Luffy wielding a sword than Shiryu... that doesn't make him a swordsman

 

[Nie Li]

I don't know enough about Shiryu. We have not seen him as much as we have seen Big Mom or Queen.

When we see him fight I will have a better understanding.

I will say he does wield a meito so I'd put my money on him being a swordsman but can't be sure.

I've seen more panels of Luffy wielding a sword than Shiryu... that doesn't make him a swordsman

I've already stated why Luffy isn't a swordsman and people like Shiryu or Big Mom are just one post prior, and my point certainly wasn't about the amount of panels.

Just like I told AmitDS: arguing whether Big Mom is a swordswoman or not is a different discussion from whether Mihawk is stronger than her or not, so don't let your opinion on the second topic affect your opinion on the former.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I've already stated why Luffy isn't a swordsman and people like Shiryu or Big Mom are just one post prior, and my point certainly wasn't about the amount of panels.

Just like I told AmitDS: arguing whether Big Mom is a swordswoman or not is a different discussion from whether Mihawk is stronger than her or not, so don't let your opinion on the second topic affect your opinion on the former.

I didn't even address whether Mihawk or Big Mom was stronger. I said Amit wasn't underselling Big Mom and he's not.

Who do you think is stronger? Mihawk or Big Mom.

 

[Nie Li]

I didn't even address whether Mihawk or Big Mom was stronger. I said Amit wasn't underselling Big Mom and he's not.

But he is, in this particular paragraph:

Her "sword techniques" are not anywhere comparable to the techniques of actual swordsmen we've seen (for eg. Zoro, Vista, Mihawk). Most if not all of her Napoleon attacks are not real Kenjutsu/Kendo; she simply wields a sword and channels her brute strength though it a la Kaido and his kanabo.

Ikoku Sovereignity is a very strong sword technique that requires a lot of skill other than strength. It's not just some long-range brute hit like AmitDS is saying in that paragraph, but a spiral big-ass long distance slash, which is a stronger sword technique than anything we have seen from any swordsman in the manga other than Zoro and Mihawk so far. The scabbards may be more skilled but they certainly have failed to demonstrate it.

Yes, Big Mom has a lot of abnormal physical strength, but denying her additional skill is underselling her.

Who do you think is stronger? Mihawk or Big Mom.

I think Mihawk would defeat her in a fight going by what she has shown so far, but I don't need her to be called a swordswoman to make that claim.

If she shows anything else when we see her fight seriously and not messing around I could change my mind.

 

[Pirate Queen]

But he is, in this particular paragraph:


Ikoku Sovereignity is a very strong sword technique that requires a lot of skill other than strength. It's not just some long-range brute hit like AmitDS is saying in that paragraph, but a spiral big-ass long distance slash, which is a stronger sword technique than anything we have seen from any swordsman in the manga other than Zoro and Mihawk so far. The scabbards may be more skilled but they certainly have failed to demonstrate it.

Yes, Big Mom has a lot of abnormal physical strength, but denying her additional skill is underselling her.


I think Mihawk would defeat her in a fight going by what she has shown so far, but I don't need her to be called a swordswoman to make that claim.

If she shows anything else when we see her fight seriously and not messing around I could change my mind.

Those sword attacks used by her are the same the 2 giants in Little Garden used. It was utilized with an axe. Those aren't solely swords techniques.


And if your going by feats, as clearly you are, you putting Mihawk above her when he hasn't shown even a fraction of what Big Mom has is far and away underselling Big Mom.

You can't even argue Mihawk can scratch her until you know for sure he had Advanced CoC

 

[Nie Li]

Those sword attacks used by her are the same the 2 giants in Little Garden used. It was utilized with an axe. Those aren't solely swords techniques.

So what?

One of the giants was skilled with a sword, and the other with an axe. It's clearly a weapon skill mastery feat using a technique from Elbaf and not some brute strength feat.

Arguing it's not solely sword techniques as a way of saying she's not a swordswoman is grasping for straws. Zoro and Mihawk have used knives and Zoro even used santouryu with a scythe.

And if your going by feats, as clearly you are, you putting Mihawk above her when he hasn't shown even a fraction of what Big Mom has is far and away underselling Big Mom.

You can't even argue Mihawk can scratch her until you know for sure he had Advanced CoC

How strange, in my opinion, you undersell Big Mom's skill with a sword but you oversell Big Mom's other feats.

Going by what you just said: do you believe Mihawk is not even the most skilled person in the world with a sword?

Because unless Mihawk is weaker than Zoro is now, which would be absurd narratively, Mihawk must be capable of piercing Kaido and by extension Big Mom. Starting with just that, Big Mom's greatest feats which are about her durability don't mean much. Just like I don't think they'd mean much if she were to fight Akainu, for example.

I don't believe Big Mom can hold a candle to Mihawk with swordsmanship alone even though I do think she's plenty skilled; other than his title, Mihawk's swordsmanship feats in Marineford showed him as a superior swordsman using only casual moves, so Big Mom's sole advantage in feats in this hypothetical fight must come from her homies.

Big Mom's homies' feats so far can be summarized to great versatility that unfortunately lacks the strength to properly finish of the Supernova. In fact they're all doing pretty great after taking her fire and lightning. The attack with which Big Mom could absolutely one shot Mihawk in my opinion is the one she used to finish off Ulti. However, I don't believe Mihawk or any other top tier that's not an arrogant tank like Kaido would stay still and not avoid it (unlike her usual homie-related techniques, it didn't seem to be a homing attack).


So yes, unless Big Mom shows new stuff when going all out, I believe Mihawk is likely to be the victor if they were to fight. However, we have also yet to see Mihawk doing anything remotely seriously, and that will also affect my opinion in the future when it happens.


If this is underselling Big Mom to you, so be it, I'm just going by what I see. However, you shouldn't deny Big Mom's sword skills randomly, or you'd be the one underselling her.