One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[XXGenesis]

@Pirate Queen
@LadyVados

No Luffy wasn’t naturally strong. Luffy’s experience with Garp, Ace, Sabo & his training is what made him strong. Start of the series Luffy’s DF power & utilization isn’t advance at all. His physical stats are still impressive whether or not he can launch his fist or feet a few meters. His DF power is rubber not super strength.

Lineage Factor does seem to effect potential & haki.

 

[Ricko]

I give it to Smoothie too.
Ulti is strong, but Smoothie have a high rank, and we know that the rank is not just for the show with BM pirates.
She also have a tricky DF, that can be really powerfull ! It look a bit like the one of Tsuru, and seem to be the kind if you have not enough haki you loose (Like Law).

Ulti chance is to be fast and strong enough to knock quickly Smoothie and have the edge.
But as we don't know her speed and CoO proficiency, at the moment it's difficult to say.

For Hody vs Lucci, depend pills Hody or normal Hody ?
Normal I think Lucci trash him in ground as fast as Zorro trashed him in water.
With pills, difficult to judge, he was still trash for Luffy.

I'll still give it to Lucci, Hody may be stronger, but Lucci is faster and a better fighter.
I think he's experience as assassin is more important than pure brute strength... Hody really lack of skill in ground.
Lucci have many way to incapacitate the fishman (eyes, vital point).

And for Pacifista comparaison, it's really different.
The main problem with Pacifistas is to bypass their heavy defense, once it's done it's a peace of cake to destroy them.
I'm not sure Hody is harder than metal...

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I give it to smoothie easily over ulti
I get smoothie hasn’t impressed but she’s never been in a position where she’s had to even try in a fight
Ulti is strong but she’s still a ways from the YC , heck in the anime Yamato is kinda shown to be easily above her which kinda makes more sense with all we know

 

[LadyVados]

Man, I think that the most annoying discussion on OP fandom is Zoro vs Sanji, but I can understand from where it’s comes. But Zoro vs Luffy? That’s just headcanon in my opinion… No offense, but I really can’t comprehend how someone can think that Zoro is nearly Luffy tier. Zoro is YC1 tier. And if it’s not consolidated by now, that last colorspread cemented that. The possible next opponents of Zoro are Shiryu, maybe Ben Backman… All YC1. Far from the Yonko tier.

Ben Beckmann is Yonko level. Rayleigh is PK level.

Zoro has not yet got his power-up for this arc, Luffy already has, that's why the gap between them is relatively big. Zoro was stronger before Luffy got CoC coating imo. If Zoro gets CoC coating he's stronger than Luffy again in my opinion.

Also even now I don't think the gap is that big, because Kaido is heavily weakened and we don't even know if Luffy is going to win. I don't think current Luffy is anywhere close to as strong as healthy Yonko or Admiral. He's YC1+ in my opinion.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2021 ---

That's not the dub you think it is.

It doesn't matter what I think, it's what the chapter leaks say.

 

[grey matter]

If what the movie says is legit, current Lucci scales to Sabo, who is YC1 or YC1+
In which case, Lucci no diffs

Since this is pre timeskip Lucci, Hody low-mid diffs him.

Ulti seems strong for a Tobiroppo. She could be YC4 tier.
But Smoothie is YC2 tier. Smoothie low-mid diffs

Call it strategy or whatever, fact is Sanji low-diffed Jabra.

They are not tankable, the first kick broke most of his ribs and badly burnt him and the second one KOed him.

If Sanji used DJ from the start the battle would have ended in seconds.

Asura has no significant charge time.

And maybe you can make an argument for the EL fights but you can't for Mr. 1, post that fight Zoro is definitely low-diffing Mr.1, if not neg-diffing.

No he didn't lol, they were tading blows after he got diable jump. Defeating an enemy with a charged attack isn't really same as low diffing him. I mean, if we go that route, Zoro almost always one shots his enemy, but we don't say that because we know it's form a changed attack

By that logic, Zoro should just go for Asura against King right off the bat. Or any other strong opponent he he faced since Kaku.
The fact that he doesn't, implies that it needs charge time during which the opponent can intercept.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2021 ---

Lol at Marco being well above King, they're definitely equals.

Nah, because we know for a fact that Roger and WB are special cases, even amongst the "Yonko tiers"

Whitebeard was said to have the strongest crew, and was the strongest pirate.

Let's take even Vista into consideration. The dude is borderline YC1, and he is actually YC5 (yes, rank in WB's crew means little, but still).
Whitebeard pirates, even discounting Blackbeard (who was YC tier even before getting yami-yami DF) and Oden, had 5 characters who were all on or above YC2 level (Marco, Jozu, Vista, Ace, Thatch), and 11 Yonko executive tiers (commanders 6-16). And this is disregarding many allied captains like Oars, Whitebay, Sqardo etc who themselves are yonko executive tiers.

Like, WB crew blows the other Yonko crew out of the water.
There is a reason WB was the gatekeeper for 20 years, and every major player immediately started making their move after he kicked the bucket.

Coming to the picture. Lot of the similarities posted in the picture can be applied to any no2 of the top dogs, including Rayleigh and Oden, who are both borderline Yonko tiers if not outright low Yonko level. So, that doesn't really mean anything.


As for Bounty, we know that beast pirates have inflated bounty due to their excessive violence and cruelty. Queen has 1.32 billion, and Katakuri who has 1.07 billion would mid-high diff him.
Marco is one of the most peaceful YC out there, the dude is a doctor and prefers sitting on the sidelines unless he absolutely needs to fight. The fact that his and King's bounty are almost identical inspite of this says a lot.


And lastly, feats and portrayal,
Marco fought equally with Kizaru though both were casual. His attack power matched that from angry Akainu, which is quite impressive. Compared directly to admirals in data book. Was considered a potential Yonko by the Gorosei and Navy.
In Wano arc: Held back BM for a few chapters. Fought King and Queen (both used zoan forms) in a 2v1 for many hours, while expending his energy healing up thousands of soldiers. Used his flames to speed up Zoro's recovery. And is still up and running.

I don't understand how you can see all this and think King is Marco's level. All this dude has done so far is looking like he's extreme diffing Zoro. King doesn't have the clout or feats that Marco has.

The only standout similarity (that isn't applicable for a typical no2, or bounty); is that both are flying zoans, and use fire,
But again, Marco is mythical Zoan, while King is ancient Zoan.

 

[LadyVados]

By that logic, Zoro should just go for Asura against King right off the bat.

Maybe it won't be enough vs King.

I don't understand how you can see all this and think King is Marco's level. All this dude has done so far is looking like he's extreme diffing Zoro. King doesn't have the clout or feats that Marco has.

Yes, he's extreme diffing the guy who scarred Hybrid Kaido (something neither Roger nor Shanks were ever able to do) and brought him to his knees and made him vomit blood, blocked a combination attack from 2 Yonkos, scared Big Mom, Overpowered Dragon Kaido and whited out his eyes and made him lose his lunch, cut apart Big Mom's homies while badly injured, parried Kaido's club casually multiple times and made Kaido dodge.

What a trash feat

 

[grey matter]

But the question are we gonna see her fight?cuz if big mom loses here what else would be smoothie purpose other than being the most useless YC2 Ever That why I still believe big mom wouldn’t be defeated here.

Nah, BM will be defeated here.
She's got 2 arcs, no need to drag her further. If Kaido indeed goes down here, BM will go down for sure as well.

Unless the whole "raid will fail" theory is happening lol (less likely)

As for Smoothie think Oda has trouble having her fight someone. Like, if you look into her abilities, it's definitely the most weird among all the YCs we know so far. The typical YC has some ability suited directly for combat, but she her ability looks hax than combat based.
So maybe, Oda doesn't want to deal with her and lets her fade into obscurity slowly?

******************

Maybe it won't be enough vs King.

Could be, but no harm trying it.
If it doesn't take enough prep time and can be used on the fly, then he should just do it

The fact that he doesn't, suggests that he can't use it right off the bat against any credible enemy

Yes, he's extreme diffing the guy who scarred Hybrid Kaido and brought him to his knees, blocked a combination attack from 2 Yonkos, scared Big Mom, Overpowered Dragon Kaido and whited out his eyes and made him lose his lunch, cut apart Big Mom's homies while badly injured, parried Kaido's club casually multiple times and made Kaido dodge.

What a trash feat

Who says it's a trash feat lol? Just not enough to compare to everything Marco has done.
And again, a YC1 stalemating Zoro at this stage was really just what we expected, most people weren't surprised by this.


The key for scarring Kaido was Zoro's conqueror's haki. I think any YC1 could replicate Zoro's feat if they have conqueror's haki + coating. The conqueror's haki becomes a critical factor only when facing someone like Kaido and BM who have unusually high natural durability. Against anyone else, this can be replicated using advanced armament, which is why King and Zoro are about equals in their fight
Zoro blocked that attack for like 1 or 2 seconds and broke some of his bones in the process, which should be possible for any YC1

 

[LadyVados]

Zoro blocked that attack for like 1 or 2 seconds and broke some of his bones in the process, which should be possible for any YC1

There is no evidence supporting this. I highly doubt Katakuri could do it for example.

Also I disagree, having the upper hand against Zoro is as good as any feat Marco has ever done, considering that Zoro (based on the rooftop) is somewhat close to a Yonko.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2021 ---

No he didn't lol, they were trading blows after he got diable jump. Defeating an enemy with a charged attack isn't really same as low diffing him. I mean, if we go that route, Zoro almost always one shots his enemy, but we don't say that because we know it's form a changed attack

I read the chapter again, Jabra clearly wasn't trading blows with Sanji, he got low-diffed. Maybe he was in the anime. Having all your ribs broken with one kick then getting KOed with the second is not trading blows.

Zoro doesn't always use Asura for the same reason Zoro doesn't go straight for G4, that type of thing happens in any manga, characters don't go all out from the start. Why was Kaku fighting Zoro for so long in human form ? Why did Kaido not go Hybrid immediately.

And what about Mr. 1 ? That was clearly a one-shot by any standard.

Most of Zoro's fights are one-shots.

Mr. 1 the instant he got BOAT, Ohm as soon as he figured out a way to land a hit on him, Kaku the instant he awakened Asura. Even Hachibi was a fairly easy win if I recall.

 

[grey matter]

There is no evidence supporting this. I highly doubt Katakuri could do it for example.

Also I disagree, having the upper hand against Zoro is as good as any feat Marco has ever done, considering that Zoro (based on the rooftop) is somewhat close to a Yonko.

Oh, I don't doubt at all that Zoro's attack power is very high relative to his tier.
Overall, he's still YC1 tier.

Take conqueror's coating away (which is made possible without his knowledge by Enma)..............by this I mean taking the final attack which scarred Kaido away. And I can see Katakuri giving Kaido the same difficulty.

What Katakuri lacks in pure attack power, he makes up for with his defence (esp with future sight) and versatility

I read the chapter again, Jabra clearly wasn't trading blows with Sanji, he got low-diffed. Maybe he was in the anime. Having all your ribs broken with one kick then getting KOed with the second is not trading blows.

Zoro doesn't always use Asura for the same reason Zoro doesn't go straight for G4, that type of thing happens in any manga, characters don't go all out from the start. Why was Kaku fighting Zoro for so long in human form ? Why did Kaido not go Hybrid immediately.

And what about Mr. 1 ? That was clearly a one-shot by any standard.

Most of Zoro's fights are one-shots.

Could be. I was an anime only until the latter parts of WCI arc

Not really an accurate comparison.
The reason Luffy hesitates in using his G4 is because it's a hit and a miss. He either finishes off the opponent fast, or he becomes useless for 10 mins after G4 runs out.
Zoro has shown no such drawback from using Asura. After using it on Kaku, he was pretty much all right, spoke to Kaku and left. Which means, the only logical reason (I mean other than CIS/narrative reasons) that Zoro doesn't use it right off the bat is because it has high prep time. Or else, there is literally no excuse for him not using it against King so far.


That's what I'm saying. You can't take someone's charged attack which lands clean and defeats the opponent as "oh, he can just one shot the other guy right off the bat". Things are more complicated than this.
IIRC it was even explicitly mentioned in the series that if two opponents are of similar levels, the fight between them can end very fast if one guy gets a clean charged blow on his opponent.
We even have a good example with Kaido vs Oden. Oden was strong enough to give Kaido a high diff. Yet, the moment Kaido got a clean charged shot on Oden, he was one shotted, Does this mean Kaido can low diff/one shot Oden? Of course not.


Yep, most of his fights are one shots. Against opponents of his own tier. Kinda proves my point. A one shot with a charged clean blow doesn't mean the opponent is tiers below Zoro

 

[LadyVados]

Oh, I don't doubt at all that Zoro's attack power is very high relative to his tier.
Overall, he's still YC1 tier.

Take conqueror's coating away (which is made possible without his knowledge by Enma)..............by this I mean taking the final attack which scarred Kaido away. And I can see Katakuri giving Kaido the same difficulty.

What Katakuri lacks in pure attack power, he makes up for with his defence (esp with future sight) and versatility



Could be. I was an anime only until the latter parts of WCI arc

Not really an accurate comparison.
The reason Luffy hesitates in using his G4 is because it's a hit and a miss. He either finishes off the opponent fast, or he becomes useless for 10 mins after G4 runs out.
Zoro has shown no such drawback from using Asura. After using it on Kaku, he was pretty much all right, spoke to Kaku and left. Which means, the only logical reason (I mean other than CIS/narrative reasons) that Zoro doesn't use it right off the bat is because it has high prep time. Or else, there is literally no excuse for him not using it against King so far.


That's what I'm saying. You can't take someone's charged attack which lands clean and defeats the opponent as "oh, he can just one shot the other guy right off the bat". Things are more complicated than this.
IIRC it was even explicitly mentioned in the series that if two opponents are of similar levels, the fight between them can end very fast if one guy gets a clean charged blow on his opponent.
We even have a good example with Kaido vs Oden. Oden was strong enough to give Kaido a high diff. Yet, the moment Kaido got a clean charged shot on Oden, he was one shotted, Does this mean Kaido can low diff/one shot Oden? Of course not.


Yep, most of his fights are one shots. Against opponents of his own tier. Kinda proves my point. A one shot with a charged clean blow doesn't mean the opponent is tiers below Zoro

Oden vs Kaido was a special case since it was a surprise attack. Battles between top tiers take days. That would be impossible if a character could defeat another with a single clean hit. Do you think Big Mom and Kaido didn't land a single clean charged attack against each other during their 3 days ? Or Akainu and Aokiji during their ten. You can take charged attack from your peer and keep fighting. If Big Mom gets hit with Ragnarok she will keep on trucking. Kaido probably hit her dead-on with hundreds of Thunder Baguas and Ragnoroks and got hit by hundreds of Ikkoku sovereignties. Akainu probably got slashed by Aokiji's ice saber thousands of times and hit Aokiji with thousands of magma fists. Someone did the math and Luffy was hit by over a hundred attacks from Katakuri on panel, many of them named, one-shotting is a clear sign of superiority.

Mr. 1 was one-shot material for Zoro after he unlocks BOAT, Kaku was one-shot material for Zoro once he unlocked Asura. It would be the same situation if Luffy went G4 and KOed Doffy with his first kong gun. I also disagree with Ichibugin being Zoro's ultimate attack, Makyusen is likely much stronger. Ohm was a gimmick fight due to his CoO.

Luffy was a YC1 tier before getting CoC coating, you seem to consider it a significant upgrade for him. Kata if he had coating would no longer be Kata, and would no longer be YC1 tier.

I still rate Kata and pre-coating Luffy below Zoro based on feats on the rooftop so King being above Zoro puts him well above them in my book.

You seem to think Marco is weaker than the admirals who are weaker than the Yonko but is still much stronger than Kata who you think can put up a fight against the Yonko. I don't really understand your powerscaling gaps.

If I understand your powerscaling correctly you think Kaido beats Kizaru high-diff who beats Fuji High diff who beats King high diff who beats Kata extreme-diff.

Yet you think Kata could put up a low or even mid-diff fight against Kaido and you think CoC coating was enough to make a Kata-level fighter like Luffy Kizaru level.

That doesn't really make mathematical sense.

And if Zoro unlocks CoC coating against King what is stopping him from being as strong or stronger than Luffy ? Why would CoC coating be a bigger power-up for Luffy than for Zoro. Why is it only enough to take Zoro from Kata level to Marco level but it's enough to take Luffy from Kata level straight to Kizaru level ?

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2021 ---

All YC1. Far from the Yonko tier.

According to some users here all it takes to go from YC1 tier to Yonko tier is learning CoC coating.

 

[grey matter]

Oden vs Kaido was a special case since it was a surprise attack. Battles between top tiers take days. That would be impossible if a character could defeat another with a single clean hit. Do you think Big Mom and Kaido didn't land a single clean charged attack against each other during their 3 days ? Or Akainu and Aokiji during their ten. You can take charged attack from your peer and keep fighting. If Big Mom gets hit with Ragnarok she will keep on trucking. Kaido probably hit her dead-on with hundreds of Thunder Baguas and Ragnoroks and got hit by hundreds of Ikkoku sovereignties. Akainu probably got slashed by Aokiji's ice saber thousands of times and hit Aokiji with thousands of magma fists. Someone did the math and Luffy was hit by over a hundred attacks from Katakuri on panel, many of them named, one-shotting is a clear sign of superiority.

It takes days when either party is careful/resourceful and not exerting their max. You think Jack can keep exerting his max for 5 days straight?

Mr. 1 was one-shot material for Zoro after he unlocks BOAT, Kaku was one-shot material for Zoro once he unlocked Asura. It would be the same situation if Luffy went G4 and KOed Doffy with his first kong gun. I also disagree with Ichibugin being Zoro's ultimate attack, Makyusen is likely much stronger. Ohm was a gimmick fight due to his CoO.

What is BOAT?

Anyway, with Mr1, I can see your point. Because, the ability Zoro got here directly allowed him to cut steel.
I.E, this was a powerup to his base, rather than a new move.

Asura is a new move that is Zoro's strongest move till date. He can't just use it on the fly. Or else explain him not using it against King right off the bat.

Luffy was a YC1 tier before getting CoC coating, you seem to consider it a significant upgrade for him. Kata if he had coating would no longer be Kata, and would no longer be YC1 tier.

I consider it an upgrade only in situational battles. Against Yonko tiers, it makes a difference. Against everyone else, it can be replicated by advanced armament haki. Would be still an upgrade obviously, but not a game changer unlike against someone like Kaido.

Also, Luffy was YC1+ in round 1 against Kaido. And now is probably Kizaru level.

I still rate Kata and pre-coating Luffy below Zoro based on feats on the rooftop so King being above Zoro puts him well above them in my book.

Nah, Luffy forever > Zoro.

You seem to think Marco is weaker than the admirals who are weaker than the Yonko but is still much stronger than Kata who you think can put up a fight against the Yonko. I don't really understand your powerscaling gaps.

If I understand your powerscaling correctly you think Kaido beats Kizaru high-diff who beats Fuji High diff who beats King high diff who beats Kata extreme-diff.

Yet you think Kata could put up a low or even mid-diff fight against Kaido and you think CoC coating was enough to make a Kata-level fighter like Luffy Kizaru level.

That doesn't really make mathematical sense.

I'll make myself clear here:

Kizaru high-extreme diff (closer to high than extreme) Marco

Kizaru mid diff Katakuri

Marco mid-high diff Katakuri

Kaido low diff Katakuri

Kaido low-mid diff Marco

Kaido mid diff Kizaru

I think all these positions are consistent with one another

And if Zoro unlocks CoC coating against King what is stopping him from being as strong or stronger than Luffy ? Why would CoC coating be a bigger power-up for Luffy than for Zoro. Why is it only enough to take Zoro from Kata level to Marco level but it's enough to take Luffy from Kata level straight to Kizaru level ?

Like I said before, IMO conqueror's coating isn't a game changer except against top tiers (like Kaido). It will be an upgrade for sure, but against non Yonkos, it's not something which can't be somewhat emulated by advanced armament.

I consider Luffy R1 as YC1+ to begin with. A YC1+ who can used advanced conqueror's. Currently he is solid admiral level, who can use advanced conqueror's.
While Zoro against Kaido was a YC1 who can use advanced conquerors (unknowingly, through Enma). After he gets whatever powerup he will against King, he will become YC1+ who can use advanced conqueror's (whether he will actually learn it or would still need Enma to do it's thing, we will have to see)

Also because the manga tells us Luffy forever > Zoro. It doesn't matter what you think what the specifics of the gap is. The fact will remain that Luffy will always, at least marginally, be above Zoro. Come on, I don't even really like Luffy and Zoro is my fav, But this is so obvious.

 

[LadyVados]

It takes days when either party is careful/resourceful and not exerting their max. You think Jack can keep exerting his max for 5 days straight?



What is BOAT?



Kizaru high-extreme diff (closer to high than extreme) Marco



Marco mid-high diff Katakuri



Kaido low-mid diff Marco



I think all these positions are consistent with one another



Like I said before, IMO conqueror's coating isn't a game changer except against top tiers (like Kaido). It will be an upgrade for sure, but against non Yonkos, it's not something which can't be somewhat emulated by advanced armament.

I consider Luffy R1 as YC1+ to begin with. A YC1+ who can used advanced conqueror's. Currently he is solid admiral level, who can use advanced conqueror's.
While Zoro against Kaido was a YC1 who can use advanced conquerors (unknowingly, through Enma). After he gets whatever powerup he will against King, he will become YC1+ who can use advanced conqueror's (whether he will actually learn it or would still need Enma to do it's thing, we will have to see)

Also because the manga tells us Luffy forever > Zoro. It doesn't matter what you think what the specifics of the gap is. The fact will remain that Luffy will always, at least marginally, be above Zoro. Come on, I don't even really like Luffy and Zoro is my fav, But this is so obvious.

1. I think Jack could go all out for 5 days. Big Mom was definitely not being careful/resourceful against Kaido, they were duking it out (I doubt either of them has the intellect to be careful/resourceful.
2. Breath of all things.
3. I strongly disagree with Luffy being YC1+ level before getting coating, in my opinion he was weaker than Kata before Ryou and is maybe on Kata's level after getting it. I also would rather look at feats than assuming Luffy is the strongest automatically because he's the protagonist and Zoro did better on the rooftop before Luffy unlocked coating. A full barage from G4 Luffy barely did anything to Dragon Kaido and he needed to be saved multiple times. Those are not the feats of a YC1+ in my opinion. My standards for a YC1+ are higher than that,

Kizaru mid diff Katakuri
Kaido low diff Katakuri
Kaido mid diff Kizaru

These 3 positions are not consistent with each other. If Kaido can mid diff someone who can mid diff Kata there is no way Kata is pushing him to low-diff. It would be a neg diff. If you can mid diff someone that another guy can low diff that means you're pushing them to at least high-diff. Especially since your standards for Low-diff are higher than mine.

Not to mention I consider Zoro's performance against Kaido to be higher end of mid diff if not lower end of high diff so the idea of Kizaru being mid-diffed by Kaido is ridiculous.

Kizaru vs Kaido is an extreme diff either way, maybe a high diff if I'm being really generous to Kaido.

No one in the verse is mid-diffing Kizaru.

But forget about my powerscaling, you can't push the mid-differ of your mid-differ to low-diff. It makes no logical sense.

 

[grey matter]

1. I think Jack could go all out for 5 days. Big Mom was definitely not being careful/resourceful against Kaido, they were duking it out (I doubt either of them has the intellect to be careful/resourceful.
2. Breath of all things.
3. I strongly disagree with Luffy being YC1+ level before getting coating, in my opinion he was weaker than Kata before Ryou and is maybe on Kata's level after getting it. I also would rather look at feats than assuming Luffy is the strongest automatically because he's the protagonist and Zoro did better on the rooftop before Luffy unlocked coating. A full barage from G4 Luffy barely did anything to Dragon Kaido and he needed to be saved multiple times. Those are not the feats of a YC1+ in my opinion. My standards for a YC1+ are higher than that,

1. Nah, I find it hard to believe that he can go all out for 5 days without failing to land a single njury on cat or dog. Same for cat/dog against Jack as well

2. what does that mean? One of Zoro's abilities?

3. Luffy was weaker than Katakuri at beginning of Wano, I agree. But he was more like YC1-2. Then he mastered advanced armament haki and trained intensely for a few weeks. After all this, he was definitely YC1+
Luffy's barrage against dragon Kaido had him coughing up blood, plus Kaido was dodging his red hawk (IIRC that's the name), implying it could hurt him. So yea, definitely YC1+

If it makes it any better, I consider Luffy's attack power below Zoro's in rooftop, at least for R1. But Luffy is better in every other aspect, and overall superior to Zoro.

These 3 positions are not consistent with each other. If Kaido can mid diff someone who can mid diff Kata there is no way Kata is pushing him to mid-diff. It would be a neg diff. If you can mid diff someone that another guy can low diff that means you're pushing them to at least high-diff. Especially since your standards for Low-diff are higher than mine.

Not to mention I consider Zoro's performance against Kaido to be higher end of mid diff if not lower end of high diff so the idea of Kizaru being mid-diffed by Kaido is ridiculous.

Kizaru vs Kaido is an extreme diff either way, maybe a high diff if I'm being really generous to Kaido.

No one in the verse is mid-diffing Kizaru.

But forget about my powerscaling, you can't push the mid-differ of your mid-differ to low-diff. It makes no logical sense.

Who said anything about Katakuri pushing Kaido to mid diff? Read again, I said Kaido LOW diff Katakuri


Nah, Zoro got low diff'd.
Zoro used everything he had, and Kaido was fine for the most part from it, apart form a scar. Zoro probably wouldn't even be able to pull off the Asura in a pure 1v1 anyway, for me it was because Kaido was distracted and looking at Luffy to begin with.
Kaido has enough attack power to take Zoro down fast


Kaido will mid diff Kizaru, definitely.
Kizaru < Akainu. Sick and injured WB > Akainu


Any Yonko will mid diff Kizaru

??
x mid diff y
y mid diff z
x low diff z
Seems quite consistent to me

 

[LadyVados]

Luffy was weaker than Katakuri at beginning of Wano, I agree. But he was more like YC1-2. Then he mastered advanced armament haki and trained intensely for a few weeks. After all this, he was definitely YC1+
Luffy's barrage against dragon Kaido had him coughing up blood, plus Kaido was dodging his red hawk (IIRC that's the name), implying it could hurt him. So yea, definitely YC1+

I strongly disagree with this, Luffy was YC2 level before Ryou training and YC1 tier afterwards. He literally hit Dragon Kaido with everything he had and collapsed immediately afterward and barely damaged him, Even the scabbards could bloody up Dragon Kaido a little bit. In my opinion any YC1 could have given Dragon Kaido the same diff. Luffy's feats in R1 were not even close to meriting YC1+. Heck Killer made Kaido cough up blood, is Killer YC1+ level too ? Saying Luffy was YC1+ level in R1 is just wank.

Who said anything about Katakuri pushing Kaido to mid diff? Read again, I said Kaido LOW diff Katakuri

Typo I meant to write low diff

Nah, Zoro got low diff'd.
Zoro used everything he had, and Kaido was fine for the most part from it, apart form a scar. Kaido has enough attack power to take Zoro down fast

I consider giving him a scar more than low-diff. And it's funny you consider this only a YC1 level feat but Luffy literally hitting a weaker form of Kaido with everything he had and barely doing anything is a YC1+ level feat ?

x mid diff y
y mid diff z
x low diff z
Seems quite consistent to me

I do not think this is consistent, Z would not be able to low-diff X if he is that much weaker than Y, it'll be a neg-diff imo.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2021 ---

Man, I think that the most annoying discussion on OP fandom is Zoro vs Sanji, but I can understand from where it’s comes. But Zoro vs Luffy? That’s just headcanon in my opinion… No offense, but I really can’t comprehend how someone can think that Zoro is nearly Luffy tier. Zoro is YC1 tier. And if it’s not consolidated by now, that last colorspread cemented that. The possible next opponents of Zoro are Shiryu, maybe Ben Backman… All YC1. Far from the Yonko tier.

I actually have a conspiracy theory that most Sanji fans do not exist. Back in the 90s and the 2000s the power debate was between Luffy and Zoro and all the Luffy fans decided to join together and start debating Sanji vs Zoro so the main rivalry and topic of discussion would shift to Zoro vs Sanji. Most Sanji fans you meet on the internet are actually Luffy-fan sleeper agents. Because if people see people arguing Zoro vs Sanji, they subconsciously start thinking that Luffy must obviously be stronger than Zoro. It's basically all a game of 4D chess engineered by Luffy fans.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

1. Nah, I find it hard to believe that he can go all out for 5 days without failing to land a single njury on cat or dog. Same for cat/dog against Jack as well

2. what does that mean? One of Zoro's abilities?

3. Luffy was weaker than Katakuri at beginning of Wano, I agree. But he was more like YC1-2. Then he mastered advanced armament haki and trained intensely for a few weeks. After all this, he was definitely YC1+
Luffy's barrage against dragon Kaido had him coughing up blood, plus Kaido was dodging his red hawk (IIRC that's the name), implying it could hurt him. So yea, definitely YC1+

If it makes it any better, I consider Luffy's attack power below Zoro's in rooftop, at least for R1. But Luffy is better in every other aspect, and overall superior to Zoro.



Who said anything about Katakuri pushing Kaido to mid diff? Read again, I said Kaido LOW diff Katakuri


Nah, Zoro got low diff'd.
Zoro used everything he had, and Kaido was fine for the most part from it, apart form a scar. Zoro probably wouldn't even be able to pull off the Asura in a pure 1v1 anyway, for me it was because Kaido was distracted and looking at Luffy to begin with.
Kaido has enough attack power to take Zoro down fast


Kaido will mid diff Kizaru, definitely.
Kizaru < Akainu. Sick and injured WB > Akainu


Any Yonko will mid diff Kizaru

??
x mid diff y
y mid diff z
x low diff z
Seems quite consistent to me

I strongly disagree with this, Luffy was YC2 level before Ryou training and YC1 tier afterwards. He literally hit Dragon Kaido with everything he had and collapsed immediately afterward and barely damaged him, Even the scabbards could bloody up Dragon Kaido a little bit. In my opinion any YC1 could have given Dragon Kaido the same diff. Luffy's feats in R1 were not even close to meriting YC1+. Heck Killer made Kaido cough up blood, is Killer YC1+ level too ? Saying Luffy was YC1+ level in R1 is just wank.




Typo I meant to write low diff



I consider giving him a scar more than low-diff. And it's funny you consider this only a YC1 level feat but Luffy literally hitting a weaker form of Kaido with everything he had and barely doing anything is a YC1+ level feat ?


I do not think this is consistent, Z would not be able to low-diff X if he is that much weaker than Y, it'll be a neg-diff imo.

I really don’t think there’s any way to tell if luffy was weaker than kata at the start of wano
Cause katakuri would be defeated in the exact same manner if what happened to luffy happened to him , remember luffy couldn’t use future sight cause he thought kaido killed his crew and his mind was angered and in disarray , if kata sees kaido attack and seemingly murder brûlée + overn + and some

luffy is actually more durable and has highee stamina than katakuri , he’s also getting one shot in that situation
And most importantly katakuri can’t use Ryou or conquerors coating so he’s gonna be just a ineffective

and again just because the scabbards can use Ryou doesn’t mean any of them where even close to start of wano luffy they just had a technique that was effective against kaido that luffy didn’t have , cause luffy damn near 1 or 2 shotting dudes like kinemon kiku raizo , and he’s still mid or high diffing inu cat viper ( remember the last 2 couldn’t take down jack who was just a YC3 ) Or kawamatsu ashura or fenjiro , luffy beating the crap outta them in a one on one
Zoro gets one shot too , he didn’t have enma at the start so he’s just as ineffective

theres no Proof so far that either king or kata(or Marco) have Ryou or conquerors coating , it’d go down the same way
Well minus Marco who can pretty much eat any attack and Keep going as long as his stamina is up

 

[grey matter]

I strongly disagree with this, Luffy was YC2 level before Ryou training and YC1 tier afterwards. He literally hit Dragon Kaido with everything he had and collapsed immediately afterward and barely damaged him, Even the scabbards could bloody up Dragon Kaido a little bit. In my opinion any YC1 could have given Dragon Kaido the same diff. Luffy's feats in R1 were not even close to meriting YC1+. Heck Killer made Kaido cough up blood, is Killer YC1+ level too ? Saying Luffy was YC1+ level in R1 is just wank.

Nah, Luffy at beginning of Wano arc is giving Katakuri a high-extreme diff, he was definitely approaching YC1 tier

Kaido dodging red hawk attack from Luffy suggests that he's at a level where his attacks would do non insignificant damage.

Ok, there are two stages for the R1 of rooftop fight:
- before Luffy learned advanced conqueror's
- after Luffy learned advanced conqueror's
Kaido did knock Luffy out for some time. But it was probably like 10-15 minutes. So, you could say there were two rounds for Luffy rooftop.

In the second half if the rooftop fight, where Luffy was using advanced conqueror's and trading blows with Kaido, he was definitely YC1+
He traded blows with Kaido and fought him for quite a bit of time.

Hmm, I think I get what you're saying.
Yea, there is a difference between Luffy before and after, and you're saying Luffy was YC1+ only by 2nd stage? Debatable. But it was pretty much the same Luffy, except that he suddenly learned how to use advanced conqueror's

Regardless, Luffy was YC1+ by the time Kaido finished him off and threw him to the sea
Current Luffy is solid admiral tier.

I consider giving him a scar more than low-diff. And it's funny you consider this only a YC1 level feat but Luffy literally hitting a weaker form of Kaido with everything he had and barely doing anything is a YC1+ level feat ?

Yeah, giving your all with conqueror's coating and Kaido having a scar but otherwise fine, while you're KO = YC1

Luffy fought Kaido for an extended period of time with conqueror's coating before he got KO'd and thrown to the sea. This is YC1+

I do not think this is consistent, Z would not be able to low-diff X if he is that much weaker than Y, it'll be a neg-diff imo.

Ehh, depends on what you consider mid diff.

Katakuri, for eg, would mid-high diff Jozu.
Yet, Jozu was doing all right against Aokiji, who IMO would mid diff Katakuri. Jozu at least gave Aokiji a low diff

I actually have a conspiracy theory that most Sanji fans do not exist. Back in the 90s and the 2000s the power debate was between Luffy and Zoro and all the Luffy fans decided to join together and start debating Sanji vs Zoro so the main rivalry and topic of discussion would shift to Zoro vs Sanji. Most Sanji fans you meet on the internet are actually Luffy-fan sleeper agents. Because if people see people arguing Zoro vs Sanji, they subconsciously start thinking that Luffy must obviously be stronger than Zoro. It's basically all a game of 4D chess engineered by Luffy fans.

More like a unison of both these fanbases lol.
Both have their reasons to say Zoro and Sanji are extremely close

I really don’t think there’s any way to tell if luffy was weaker than kata at the start of wano
Cause katakuri would be defeated in the exact same manner if what happened to luffy happened to him , remember luffy couldn’t use future sight cause he thought kaido killed his crew and his mind was angered and in disarray , if kata sees kaido attack and seemingly murder brûlée + overn + and some

luffy is actually more durable and has highee stamina than katakuri , he’s also getting one shot in that situation
And most importantly katakuri can’t use Ryou or conquerors coating so he’s gonna be just a ineffective

and again just because the scabbards can use Ryou doesn’t mean any of them where even close to start of wano luffy they just had a technique that was effective against kaido that luffy didn’t have , cause luffy damn near 1 or 2 shotting dudes like kinemon kiku raizo , and he’s still mid or high diffing inu cat viper ( remember the last 2 couldn’t take down jack who was just a YC3 ) Or kawamatsu ashura or fenjiro , luffy beating the crap outta them in a one on one
Zoro gets one shot too , he didn’t have enma at the start so he’s just as ineffective

theres no Proof so far that either king or kata(or Marco) have Ryou or conquerors coating , it’d go down the same way
Well minus Marco who can pretty much eat any attack and Keep going as long as his stamina is up

I really don't know what to make of that one shot, and am honestly leaning towards believing it to be an outlier.
I mean, Law tanked the same attack and seemed fine afterwards, The dude is literally fighting BM for an extended period of time while tanking her attacks, after tanking thunder baigo from hybrid Kaido.
I don't believe for a moment that Law is more durable than beginning of Wano G4 Luffy, who is brimming with armament haki

Anyway, I think Katakuri was slightly stronger than Luffy, since Luffy had no major battles since that fight. And Katakuri basically gave up and allowed Luffy to win, after seeing his willpower.

I would be very surprised if the no2s of the top dogs of OP don't have advanced armament haki. I expect it purely based on their status.
This is basically turning into how Crocodile didn't show haki, and pretty much how nobody in Marineford showed armament hardening. Because like armament hardening was only introduced since timeskip, advanced armament was only introduced in Wano arc

 

[LadyVados]

Hmm, I think I get what you're saying.
Yea, there is a difference between Luffy before and after, and you're saying Luffy was YC1+ only by 2nd stage?

Exactly

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2021 ---

In my opinion-

No-diff- defeated instantly

Low diff- defeated without any damage

Mid diff- defeated without any significant damage (ie maybe minor bruise or small cut)/ survives longer than low diff opponent

High diff- receives significant damage but can continue fighting, nothing life threatening

Extreme diff- heavily damaged, needs urgent medical attention.

Therefore Zoro vs Kaido in 1010 was the lower end of high diff in my book, since it scarred him for life and made him vomit blood.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Nah, Luffy at beginning of Wano arc is giving Katakuri a high-extreme diff, he was definitely approaching YC1 tier

Kaido dodging red hawk attack from Luffy suggests that he's at a level where his attacks would do non insignificant damage.

Ok, there are two stages for the R1 of rooftop fight:
- before Luffy learned advanced conqueror's
- after Luffy learned advanced conqueror's
Kaido did knock Luffy out for some time. But it was probably like 10-15 minutes. So, you could say there were two rounds for Luffy rooftop.

In the second half if the rooftop fight, where Luffy was using advanced conqueror's and trading blows with Kaido, he was definitely YC1+
He traded blows with Kaido and fought him for quite a bit of time.

Hmm, I think I get what you're saying.
Yea, there is a difference between Luffy before and after, and you're saying Luffy was YC1+ only by 2nd stage? Debatable. But it was pretty much the same Luffy, except that he suddenly learned how to use advanced conqueror's

Regardless, Luffy was YC1+ by the time Kaido finished him off and threw him to the sea
Current Luffy is solid admiral tier.



Yeah, giving your all with conqueror's coating and Kaido having a scar but otherwise fine, while you're KO = YC1

Luffy fought Kaido for an extended period of time with conqueror's coating before he got KO'd and thrown to the sea. This is YC1+



Ehh, depends on what you consider mid diff.

Katakuri, for eg, would mid-high diff Jozu.
Yet, Jozu was doing all right against Aokiji, who IMO would mid diff Katakuri. Jozu at least gave Aokiji a low diff



More like a unison of both these fanbases lol.
Both have their reasons to say Zoro and Sanji are extremely close



I really don't know what to make of that one shot, and am honestly leaning towards believing it to be an outlier.
I mean, Law tanked the same attack and seemed fine afterwards, The dude is literally fighting BM for an extended period of time while tanking her attacks, after tanking thunder baigo from hybrid Kaido.
I don't believe for a moment that Law is more durable than beginning of Wano G4 Luffy, who is brimming with armament haki

Anyway, I think Katakuri was slightly stronger than Luffy, since Luffy had no major battles since that fight. And Katakuri basically gave up and allowed Luffy to win, after seeing his willpower.

I would be very surprised if the no2s of the top dogs of OP don't have advanced armament haki. I expect it purely based on their status.
This is basically turning into how Crocodile didn't show haki, and pretty much how nobody in Marineford showed armament hardening. Because like armament hardening was only introduced since timeskip, advanced armament was only introduced in Wano arc

I agree that kata was still stronger than luffy even tho luffy “won” the fight
I’m just saying they seemed pretty comparable and luffy gets much stronger after a hard fought victory
Luffy probably already had comparable speed durability(in gear 4) from the jump against kata just couldn’t hit him cause of FS , cause Everytime Kara’s FS went left luffy suddenly looked very comparable to kata

 

[M3J]

Yeah, I think if it weren't for Future Sight, the fight would have been much more even throughout, rather than closer to the end. Without that, maybe Luffy would have been the decisive winner instead of Katakuri losing on purpose, as he did take tons of damage.

 

[aberick]

katakuri didnt let luffy win, who thinks that has bad interpretation and need to read again, luffy lvl on the end of fight was the same lvl as kata, luffy took insane amount of damage from start of fight where he was weaker than kata, and in the end receive the fatal wound, and managed to tie with kata even with that amount of insane damage, so wano luffy for sure would win easier, when luffy climbed the hole kata was still down, the guy could barely stand up to say last words for luffy and luffy was already in the pose to continue the fight