One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Chapter 838 is where Cracker explains his devil fruit. The ground in 837 and 838 has the same look. In the pictures linked the ground has changed to biscuits. The ground is not changed in the same way Cracker makes his soldiers. Crackers devil fruit affected the environment. Specifically the ground of the forest. Cracker is awakened. Check yourself, goddamn.

Again, same realm as Crocodile: Is it likely awakened? Maybe? Probably? Is it absolute fact? No. We've seen far more busted paramecia doing far more ridiculous things. But yeah you do you. Cracker makes biscuits by clapping, and unless he has some greater form of awakening that Doffy or Katakuri- who can't turn thin air into their substance- we never saw a panel of Cracker actively turning his environment into biscuits. For all we know the 'ground' could just be leftovers from his not-awakened biscuit conjuring.

There's a conversation to be had there without assuming things ABSOLUTELY.

 

[Fox666]

Strings did no damage to Luffy; They stalled him/tied him up/biuncedDoffy couldn’t hurt Luffy in G4; Not even with Haki because his Haki is weaker than Luffy’s

Did you forget Katakuri punched Boundman in his stomache & hurt him right….

Doffy’s kick didn’t work because his Haki was too weak…

I don't remember Doflamingo ever hitting Luffy with his cutting-type string, afaik Luffy dodged them all.

Katakuri used future sight to hit Luffy on his weak spot in the stomach, which is unprotected with Haki.

 

[AmitDS]

could big mum be awakened too?

I'm sure she is, as well as Kaido and probably BB too. But as of now, we haven't gotten any confirmation if they're awakened. I've seen conflicting fan arguments about how she is, based on her homie-making or her lifespan-consuming abilities but I doubt either are awakened abilities. I've seen some fans speculate that her consuming her own lifespan was her awakening as well lol so basically any new or existing ability of hers Oda throws at us we'll say it's her awakening until he clearly shows what her awakening is xD

If she or the other Yonkou are awakened I'm sure Oda would clearly highlight their awakenings and show-off these awakened abilities. If Kid & Law's fight is her final standoff I guess he'd showcase these abilities in the fight but if she's coming back for Elbaf Oda can save her awakening for there.
Idk what her awakening can even look like tbh cuz her fruit is already very versatile and complex. Some kind of soul projection ability a la Moria's Doppelman? That'd be broken

 

[Hrathgrath]

I'm sure she is, as well as Kaido and probably BB too. But as of now, we haven't gotten any confirmation if they're awakened. I've seen conflicting fan arguments about how she is, based on her homie-making or her lifespan-consuming abilities but I doubt either are awakened abilities. I've seen some fans speculate that her consuming her own lifespan was her awakening as well lol so basically any new or existing ability of hers Oda throws at us we'll say it's her awakening until he clearly shows what her awakening is xD

If she or the other Yonkou are awakened I'm sure Oda would clearly highlight their awakenings and show-off these awakened abilities. If Kid & Law's fight is her final standoff I guess he'd showcase these abilities in the fight but if she's coming back for Elbaf Oda can save her awakening for there.
Idk what her awakening can even look like tbh cuz her fruit is already very versatile and complex. Some kind of soul projection ability a la Moria's Doppelman? That'd be broken

It already can! Remember her “shadows” pulling life from people?

 

[AmitDS]

It already can! Remember her “shadows” pulling life from people?

Oh yeah Ik the soul-collecting specters lol but I really meant she could probably manifest her soul outside her body or something like what brook does and maybe use it like how Moria uses his Doppelman, like for eg. subbing out parts of her body for her soul copy etc. I'm just wildly theorizing, it could be anything xD

On a side note, I can't wait for Kaido's awakening to be revealed to be a dopey looking Toon Dragon lmao

 

[Hrathgrath]

Oh yeah Ik the soul-collecting specters lol but I really meant she could probably manifest her soul outside her body or something like what brook does and maybe use it like how Moria uses his Doppelman, like for eg. subbing out parts of her body for her soul copy etc. I'm just wildly theorizing, it could be anything xD

On a side note, I can't wait for Kaido's awakening to be revealed to be a dopey looking Toon Dragon lmao

I see Zoan awakenings as the regen deal/being able to transform single parts. Either that or retaining transformed abilities, like Marco specifically. Would be both awesome and hilarious to see Kaidou in a corner, shake his head and say “I hate being forced to use this form” then change into the toon dragon from YuGio lol

 

[XXGenesis]

Reminder, headcanon is headcanon. My gods I wish people would stop saying headcanon as matter of fact.

If you have a source, cough it up because as far as I know that's never stated at all.

That’s not even headcannon. He’s straight up wrong about his interpretation. Now Your response about Croc, yes those ideas are headcannon. if someone chooses to subscribe to that line of thinking, so be it; It’s an idea supported by the manga that’s not actually or factually stated….

Look at any convo about Haki its half Headcannon, half what we know so far. Still a conversation trying to understand it, shouldn’t be dismissed.

Chapter 838 is where Cracker explains his devil fruit. The ground in 837 and 838 has the same look. In the pictures linked the ground has changed to biscuits. The ground is not changed in the same way Cracker makes his soldiers. Crackers devil fruit affected the environment. Specifically the ground of the forest. Cracker is awakened. Check yourself, goddamn.

Cracker is not awakened. Anytime a DF ability that was awakened was used in the manga, it’s been explicitly stated…

Prison Zoans
Doflamingo
Katakuri
Law & Kidd

I don't remember Doflamingo ever hitting Luffy with his cutting-type string, afaik Luffy dodged them all.

Katakuri used future sight to hit Luffy on his weak spot in the stomach, which is unprotected with Haki.

You are correct, I was thinking of the anime.

CoA isn’t covering his belly…hmm it would be his weak spot wouldn’t it..damn alright I think I have to concede here. Your right. He did land a side hit also,G4 back is covered with CoA & he used FS to counter G4 punches away, Luffy couldn’t hit him anymore.

***Mid type edit**
784 Doffy hits Luffy in his stomache; Luffy’s ribs are covered with Armaments; & Luffy even used CoA on his head against his strings..It seems Katakuri hit him before he could guard

 

[Fox666]

Cracker is not awakened. Anytime a DF ability that was awakened was used in the manga, it’s been explicitly stated…

Prison Zoans
Doflamingo
Katakuri
Law & Kidd

Yeah, Katakuri being awakened wouldn't so much of a big deal otherwise.

That's just how Cracker's ability normally is.

 

[XXGenesis]

Haki is simply a bypass for Devil Fruits and "touch" the individual.

If you hit Akainu while he's in magma mode, he will feel the hit as if he's a regular person, but he will still be in said form. We've seen that with Ceasar Clown and Smoker, who have both been hit or even grappled while in their intangible forms. The only difference is, I imagine, while you got the hit in on him, you will still get burned depending on your level of haki. But that's just for Logia, which don't usually possess the same sort of toughness as certain Paramecia, like Jozu's fruit.

But if you look at Ancient (Dinosaur) Zoans and Kaido's Dragon Fruit, which, as we are currently seeing, we see that just having basic Haki isn't enough to get the job done as their physical durability/hides are too tough and formidable. With Rayleigh's explanation, their hides wouldn't matter as regular haki would still bypass it, but that's clearly not the case.

Then there's the possibility that those characters are potentially bolstering their already stacked defenses with haki as well and things get a bit more muddled. Maybe said haki defense keeps their powers from being overtaken? It's never been brought up.

In theory, any haki infused attack on a regular non-haki using Diamond Fruit user should be effective. In theory. But between the current showing of Dino Zoans and their durability and the vague intricacies of haki, things aren't as clear-cut as Rayleigh made it out to be.

Things are not so clear cut.

We do know physical strength is enough to overcome Haki; ex. Luffy vs Boa Sisters

CoA vs CoA stronger CoA wins. ex. Base Luffy vs Katakuri

G4 Luffy vs Katakuri….Luffy’s muscle buff bridges the gap.

We know DF abilities can be imbued with haki, as they are still an extension of one’s self. Yet we have never seen a logia imbue Haki into a long range attack yet, or any long range DF ability per say…aside from Katakuri’s Donut Mochi’s, Crackers biscuit soldiers

Great point out about Ancient Dino Zoan

Still makes me wonder though. Didn't Luffy win easily and quickly after coming up with a plan? What if he did that at the start instead?

Oh I thought he was trying to block Law's sword, not his devil fruit ability.


oh that's a good point, but HereNThere pointed out zoan's hides providing good defense even against haki, so confusion again unless you mean only logias are affected by the bypass

So it's kinda fruitless having debates like this since we have no idea how haki truly affects paramecia.

The plan lasted hours, not very fast.
Luffy had no way to consistently wet the biscuit soldiers or know until it happened, & he’s a bit slow so the idea never came to Luffy.

No, Vergo was overconfident that he was superior to Law, as was Doffy. Law proved them wrong.

No All DF users are effected by the bypass. Haki alone sometimes isn’t enough to harm something. Ex.G2 Luffy vs Boa Sisters ACoA

*Headcannon Jozu’s Diamondform. Greater CoA will allow you to hurt Jozu; But I believe you can still hurt yourself on his diamond hide. He’ll take the damage he normally wouldn’t take, but that doesn’t fully protect you from smashing into diamond.

I wouldn’t call it Fruitless. But to argue with one another over our observations no matter how far fetched is fruitless

 

[M3J]

The plan lasted hours, not very fast.
Luffy had no way to consistently wet the biscuit soldiers or know until it happened, & he’s a bit slow so the idea never came to Luffy.

No, Vergo was overconfident that he was superior to Law, as was Doffy. Law proved them wrong.

No All DF users are effected by the bypass. Haki alone sometimes isn’t enough to harm something. Ex.G2 Luffy vs Boa Sisters ACoA

*Headcannon Jozu’s Diamondform. Greater CoA will allow you to hurt Jozu; But I believe you can still hurt yourself on his diamond hide. He’ll take the damage he normally wouldn’t take, but that doesn’t fully protect you from smashing into diamond.

I wouldn’t call it Fruitless. But to argue with one another over our observations no matter how far fetched is fruitless

Wait, I thought he came up with the plan near the end?

Yeah that's what I was thinking as well. Makes me wonder if Oda has it planned out or if he's just YOLO'ing it

Yeah, or trying to act as if we're right. THat's my main issue, and major issue I have with Hannibal Psyche. One thing to argue one's side, another thing to insist it's a fact.

 

[Core D. Roy]

G4 Luffy vs Katakuri….Luffy’s muscle buff bridges the gap.

I'm not so sure, the nature of Luffy's G4 is still pretty nebulous. Doffy and Cracker's observations about how his elasticity is combined with his haki makes Luffy's body into something that has qualities rubber doesn't have on its own. The interaction with Katakuri's Block Mochi is still a mystery to me as well- normally I'd just say 'oh it's just a tougher armament', but Kata specifically said it was a level beyond normal CoA, iirc. Because of that I've gotten the feeling for a while that Kata's Block Mochi is some form of CoA that's also in the advanced tier, just a different application compared to say, the barrier or flowing CoA.

 

[I Am Atomic]

No it happened in the manga also. KKG was about to wipe out the wave of soldiers & Cracker himself, but Luffy reached his limit:

Can you show a manga panel please?

Or anyone else that can show me that Luffy used King Kong Gun against Cracker? All I remember is Kong Organ as the new move.

 

[Fox666]

I'm not so sure, the nature of Luffy's G4 is still pretty nebulous. Doffy and Cracker's observations about how his elasticity is combined with his haki makes Luffy's body into something that has qualities rubber doesn't have on its own. The interaction with Katakuri's Block Mochi is still a mystery to me as well- normally I'd just say 'oh it's just a tougher armament', but Kata specifically said it was a level beyond normal CoA, iirc. Because of that I've gotten the feeling for a while that Kata's Block Mochi is some form of CoA that's also in the advanced tier, just a different application compared to say, the barrier or flowing CoA.

Block Mochi is just a hard substance

A hard substance with Haki is stronger than a soft substance with Haki

 

[XXGenesis]

I'm not so sure, the nature of Luffy's G4 is still pretty nebulous. Doffy and Cracker's observations about how his elasticity is combined with his haki makes Luffy's body into something that has qualities rubber doesn't have on its own. The interaction with Katakuri's Block Mochi is still a mystery to me as well- normally I'd just say 'oh it's just a tougher armament', but Kata specifically said it was a level beyond normal CoA, iirc. Because of that I've gotten the feeling for a while that Kata's Block Mochi is some form of CoA that's also in the advanced tier, just a different application compared to say, the barrier or flowing CoA.

What’s so nebolous about it? We got enough info to understand how it works. Luffy inflates his muscles & turns into a bouncy, hard ass TIRE lol.

Luffy’s references
“Muscle Balloon”
“To overpower….the strong animals…I needed size & resilience”

Doffy’s references
“The rubber & elasticity you can’t even stand properly anymore”
“He’s hardening with haki & using tensile force..”
“Even with armament he’s still rubber!??”


Doffy’s kick didn’t work because his Haki & physical strength was not enough…“Even with armament he’s rubber”….His Haki wasn’t strong enough, nor can he physically abuse G4 muscles.

Compared to Katakuri punching Boundman directly in his stomach & side sending him flying around Mirror world.

Katakuri mentions Advance levels to Color of Armament. We know what that it, it’s flow. Luffy learns it in the next arc, the simplest answer most likely is, no need to speculate about something not yet introduced. When it has,

Can you show a manga panel please?

Or anyone else that can show me that Luffy used King Kong Gun against Cracker? All I remember is Kong Organ as the new move.

Bro!! You’ve got some good memory!!! He’s never shown attempting KKG;
We are mixing up the Anime & Manga.

Cracker vs Luffy was mostly offscreen!

Damn in hindsight Oda, has offscreen mad shit

 

[Dziumbranakas]

could big mum be awakened too?

Lol, could? She must be.

For Cracker debate, doesn't look like he is awakened, not stated that he is, why even debate

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Lol, could? She must be.

For Cracker debate, doesn't look like he is awakened, not stated that he is, why even debate

Big mum and cracker mastery is so high being awakened wouldn’t surprise me

 

[kkck]

I'm not so sure, the nature of Luffy's G4 is still pretty nebulous. Doffy and Cracker's observations about how his elasticity is combined with his haki makes Luffy's body into something that has qualities rubber doesn't have on its own. The interaction with Katakuri's Block Mochi is still a mystery to me as well- normally I'd just say 'oh it's just a tougher armament', but Kata specifically said it was a level beyond normal CoA, iirc. Because of that I've gotten the feeling for a while that Kata's Block Mochi is some form of CoA that's also in the advanced tier, just a different application compared to say, the barrier or flowing CoA.

Here is my take on this (though it's probably what most people already think):

1.- Luffy simply uses his haki to harden his rubber body and adjust his elasticity to his convenience. Most evident in attacks where he uses his elasticity to enhance his attack power. Gear 4 in general isn't simply inflated muscles, haki is a crucial component to it. Different from gear 2 or 3 which predate haki and don't necessarily incorporate it.

2.- As for katakuri... my guess at the time is that he takes advantage of his logia like traits to maximize his haki. He shapes his mochi into the hardest structure he can and applies armor haki to it... Basically adding to more than just a fist with haki.

 

[albertwv]

I dont think Cracker is awakened, I think Oda saved that for Katakuri among the BMP (besides BM she has to be). Cracker simply has great use for his biscuits, which to me is a worthless DF, actually a lot of the BMP's DFs were useless and were based off on food. BMP has a theme of food abilities and to me is rather weak story telling from Oda's part. Their DFs were the most random insane ones that makes you wonder if Oda had any idea.
It was cool the way he made food abilities into strong capable fighting abilities, but nonetheless not impressive at all.
I am trying to remember who else had a food ability outside the BMP but within the canon manga.... anybody?

Now Pekoms and Bobbin, they had rather cool and dangerous DF abilities that were NOT food related. I wish we would have seen more of Bobbin, that guy was basically the first BMP to be shown reporting to BM on WCI on how they destroyed a whole nation. Aside from Pekoms and Tamago, Bobbin looked way more cool when they introduced the BMP in Fishman Island.

Yet Bobbin only is seen for a few scenes and gets knocked out by a kick from Sanji and a gunshot from Vito....wack.
Then Pekoms is rarely seen fighting with his Turtle Diamond Shell DF.
And we still dont know how Smoothies powers work exactly or what Snack's powers are.

Oda dropped the ball on the BMP and the Beasts Pirates (well the Gifters/headliners)
Oda hyped up these Yonko pirate crews but in the end they were no actual threat to the SH Pirates. To think the SHs first actual raid as a crew together was the Yonko pirate crew and defeated them fairly easy.

 

[kkck]

While it makes sense that yonko and YC1-3 are awakened, I don't think oda has written awakening in such a way that it is something that top tier characters necessarily have. I think there will be an element of randomness to this. Also, oda doesn't necessarily have the time to awaken every top tier character... That said, at this point in the story yonko or YC1-3 not having an awakening is without a doubt a disappointment. Imagine the kaido arc ending without oda showcasing a single awakened zoan... even though the strawhats faced an enemy crew composed entirely out of zoans.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I dont think Cracker is awakened, I think Oda saved that for Katakuri among the BMP (besides BM she has to be). Cracker simply has great use for his biscuits, which to me is a worthless DF, actually a lot of the BMP's DFs were useless and were based off on food. BMP has a theme of food abilities and to me is rather weak story telling from Oda's part. Their DFs were the most random insane ones that makes you wonder if Oda had any idea.
It was cool the way he made food abilities into strong capable fighting abilities, but nonetheless not impressive at all.
I am trying to remember who else had a food ability outside the BMP but within the canon manga.... anybody?

Now Pekoms and Bobbin, they had rather cool and dangerous DF abilities that were NOT food related. I wish we would have seen more of Bobbin, that guy was basically the first BMP to be shown reporting to BM on WCI on how they destroyed a whole nation. Aside from Pekoms and Tamago, Bobbin looked way more cool when they introduced the BMP in Fishman Island.

Yet Bobbin only is seen for a few scenes and gets knocked out by a kick from Sanji and a gunshot from Vito....wack.
Then Pekoms is rarely seen fighting with his Turtle Diamond Shell DF.
And we still dont know how Smoothies powers work exactly or what Snack's powers are.

Oda dropped the ball on the BMP and the Beasts Pirates (well the Gifters/headliners)
Oda hyped up these Yonko pirate crews but in the end they were no actual threat to the SH Pirates. To think the SHs first actual raid as a crew together was the Yonko pirate crew and defeated them fairly easy.

Nah the big mum pirates lived up to the hype
Granted the alliance here is bigger an grander but luffy and co had to run away at the end of whole cake island
Luffy and co were constantly on the back foot during the entire arc and were lucky to survive and escape
In