So when you bring up Katakuri or try to downplay Big Mom and her crew because you don't like her (shocker you don't like a female character flashes back* to Mirajane & Erza on the ft forum) it's not obsession but when someone references people's BS powerscaling takes about King, it's obsession? Lol ok.
Seems like straight up projection here my guy!
Also, Katakuri is my top5 fav in the series, not like it matters anyway.
Actually an emperor's crew being inferior or superior to other emperors' crews has no backing in canon since they are portrayed as equals eg. the gorosei stating that Blackbeard and his crew could be stopped by Kaido, Big Mom or Shanks or even Marco with WB's crew AND their captains are the strongest/greatest pirates alive who rule over the New World and fight fight for territory and dominance.
Gorosei were clearly just naming the potential candidates who could stop BB and his crew.
And they were clearly wrong about Marco + rest of WB crew, it wasn't even close. Marco and co got stomped.
And this was 2 years back, current BB crew is likely a lot stronger because of DF hunts + parallels to Luffy's + plot reasons (one of endgame)
Um the marines just hinted at his crew having fewer but stronger members. It was never stated or implied that his entire crew > Big Mom or Kaido's entire crew. That's a headcanon.
The portrayal was definitely there.
For Red Hair pirates, the crew was specifically highlighted as heavyweights. "Highest avg bounty", "individual notoriety", "undefeatable group". IK bounty alone doesn't indicate higher strength, but when looked in context with other stuff, definitely!
While they didn't do it for Kaido or BM. For their cases, clearly the highlight was Kaido and BM themselves, rather than their crew
Headcanon. Even if he is he would be the exception as he's special and the EOS villain and you don't even know if he reached that level with his crew yet. And we both know that my post was referring to the emperors regularly i.e. not this hypothetical version of BB that has no support in canon (since as I said the gorosei thinks Shanks, Kaido or Big Mom can stop him).
Yea ok, I can accept this is speculation. I stated it as such in my post. Said BB crew might surpass Shanks crew for plot reasons.
And Gorosei made the statement 2 years back
Headcanon. WB himself talked about how going up against Kaido and his crew would be disastrous. Add that one to Kaido himself fearing Big Mom with her core members only invading his territory and Oda's intent is clear i.e. any emperor's crew can stalemate any others, thus far. Also you don't know how strong his weak 'commanders' are since people like Izu and his inferiors seem inferior to even Perospero, Drake and Who's Who for example.
It would be disastrous for sure.
Doesn't mean he wouldn't win it.
WB, even while old (but in meds) has haki which rivals Shanks (arguably the strongest haki user alive currently); and was considered even by top brass of marines (including Sengoku and admirals IIRC) to be the strongest pirate.
WB crew (before it started falling apart) has multiple YC tiers within their ranks.
Marco is stronger than both King and Katakuri by a decent margin. YC1+
Ace and Vista are probably YC1 tier, YC2+ at min.
BB was strong even without fruit, was offered 2nd commander position and scarred Shanks. Def YC2+
Jozu held his own for a while against Aokiji, probably YC2
Thatch YC3-4
Izo definitely is Tobiroppo tier. He's portrayed along with Scabbards, and Scabbards are a group of very strong individuals (the stronger Scabbards even reach YC2-3 levels). Bounty isn't end all (since bounty = power + violence/infamy), but he has higher bounty than every Tobiroppo member except Who's Who. It does suggest something.
WB commanders 6-16 indeed does seem to fit the role of Tobiroppo. They aren't given the same focus as actual YC tiers within WB crew, such as Marco, Vista etc. But were still commanders and had authority. Ditto Tobiroppo/Yonko executive portrayal.
Perospero is quite strong, the guy is YC4 tier IMO. Just that he didn't have the title. Kinda similar to say Apoo and Hawkins in this regard
Didn't Kaido fight Big Mom and Shanks and fail to overpower either?
Didn't he wank Shanks to be like Roger, WB, Rocks and Oden as an enemy who can fight him? Funny because all of these guys were his superiors when he fought them. lol
Didn't he try to kill Big Mom, fight her for 2 days while she lacked Prometheus/Zeus and thus her 'Master of the Land of Souls' form and end up tying with her? The same Big Mom who was competing with Prime WB, Roger & Shiki as they were the 4 strongest/greatest pirates in the New World?
And didn't World's Strongest title holders get equals in the past? eg) Whitebeard was the WSM when he was Roger's equal.
-WSM Whitebeard couldn't beat Roger
-WSC/WSP Kaido couldn't beat Shanks or Big Mom
Relying on these titles never really works out.
Yea, I'm not saying the gap is big. It would be extreme diff win for Kaido against BM or Shanks.
In general Oda does these "they fought for x days" to suggest two characters are close in PL. I doubt Shanks and Kaido had a serious battle, with Shanks (or Kaido) reaching Marineford with zero injuries.
Same for Kaido and BM, neither of them had any injuries. While Luffy, who had just learned advanced conqueror's and was still quite below Kaido's level, gave Kaido some injuries before getting KO'd and thrown into the sea. And this was within an hour
I don't see contradictions in statements here since:
- the Kaido statements came when WB was already dead. So, after WB died, Kaido wins against anyone in a 1v1
- WB became strongest pirate after Roger died as well. One of the dude's major selling points itself is that he is extremely close to Roger.
@Fox666 posted an image kinda proves it ("he is definitely the strongest pirate
as of now")
@grey matter One thing I want to make clear... Ace was not YC2 or even YC1. Jozu and Vista and maybe even Thatch were stronger than Ace. Ace was still a rookie to them, even if he got 2nd Division Commander spot. If Marcos, Jozu or Vista were sent to deal with BB, Im pretty sure they would have won, some difficulty but still. I like to think BB killed Thatch by stabbing him in the back or something sneaky not a full front fight.
Also in that matter of BB, he is hyped up alot because he scarred Shanks, but we dont know when he scarred Shanks. 12 years ago, Shanks already had his scars but he wasnt Yonko level yet.
Anyways speaking of WSC vs WSM, or Yonko vs Yonko...
Kaido is the strongest pirate, creature and maybe man now in the OP world. He is stronger than BM and Shanks and Akainu. He has been described this by various characters on the manga, I am excluding the vivre card or databooks or novel or whatever. I like to draw my sources from the manga not even the anime. Just pure manga.
The VCs have been proven wrong so I no longer take that information on point.
When has somebody in the manga stated that BM is the strongest whatever or that she is superior to Kaido. She is consider his near peer. Just because they fought for 2 days with no apparent winner doesnt mean they are equals. I dont think they were fighting seriously, even though they were enemies/rivals, if Kaido really wanted to kill her he would have killed her when she was in hand cuffs.
I bet Kaido didnt even go full hybrid awakened on her. Kaido is considered the strongest pirate NOT Big Mom.
Kaido respects Roger, WB, Oden, and Shanks because they have been the only ones who have damaged him, he didnt even mention BM. That doesnt necessarily mean those figures were stronger than Kaido, maybe Roger and WB but not the other 2. I believe Kaido > Oden by a small margin.
Shanks vs Kaido, we dont know how it went, we dont know if it was a full battle or a stand down. I bet Shanks got him to stand down, because Kaido knew if he fought Shanks he would be too hurt to fight WB. If anything they actually fought with Shanks being able to harm him and Kaido acknowledging Shanks and thinking that the damage would be too big if he continued.
Kaido vs WB, I like to think WSC > WSM. At least the WB we saw 2 years ago. WB's health was getting worse so I bet Kaido wouldve beat him extremely diff of course.
WB 20 years ago > Kaido for sures tho.
WB didnt want to avenge Oden because he knew even if he won the battle, the damage would be too great. WB didnt care if his other enemies would have taken advantaged of the situation, but rather WB cared too much about his "sons" that he didnt want to see them die for an old cause (they learned about Oden's death years later I believe)
I mostly agree with you.
Just few points:
1. Ace was definitely strong. He was YC2 at minimum, and likely YC1 tier. This dude stalemated Jinbe when he was beginning of series Luffy's age! He then grew stronger for 2-3 years
He also equalled an attack from Aokiji. He lost to the strongest admiral, while having DF disadvantage.
IDK if you trust the novel. But the novel makes a solid case for him being a YC1 tier, not just YC2. He fought against WB for a while, and note: this wasn't a WB off the meds for days and could barely use haki that we saw in Marineford; but this is a WB who equaled haki from Shanks and was no diffing Ace (when he was Jinbe tier) in his sleep
Even if you ignore novel, Ace still has solid feats of - stalemating Jinbe at 17 years old, equaling an attack from Aokiji.
There is a reason WB and Shanks saw the future PK in him.
2. Kaido became the strongest after WB died
WB wasn't just WSM. He was referred to as the world's strongest pirate by multiple characters, ranging from top brass of marines (Sengoku, admirals) to even characters like Buggy. Even as old, he was still the strongest pirate, as long as he wasn't off his meds for too long.
It was just that the WB we saw in Marineford was extremely nerfed cause he was off his meds for days! Even MArco was surprised at how weakened WB had become
And yes, WB definitely didn't attack Kaido because Oden was already dead when he found out about what's going on in Wano, and he saw no point having his "sons" die for vengeance
If he had known the situation earlier, he 100% would've invaded Wano, like he did Marineford (a much stronger force than Beast Pirates). And this WB was in his peak and a significant cut above Kaido (since Oden, WB's second in command, was himself strong enough to give Kaido a high-extreme diff)
