One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[LadyVados]

So by that same token, Katakuri is that 'FM level' too right, considering he's been with BM since he was conceived? lol

But BM was a pirate and formed the BM Pirates long ago. Katakuri was only born and became a commander much later.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Even Fuji couldn’t stop Birdcage, it definitely does not scale to Doffy’s regular attacks.

Yes Fuji could not stop it either. Attack power does not equate overall strength of a character as it is only one aspect of fighting. Someone weak with the Gura Gura no mi, Goro Goro no mi, or Magu Magu no mi would have some of the highest attack power in the OP verse. Heck we saw that with Enel who had and I'd argue still has one of the highest attack power in OP but is still not a strong character.

Or maybe rooftop Luffy, Kidd and Law >>> WCI Luffy ?

I agree with this. Rooftop Luffy, Kidd and Law to me are all YC1+ in strength and through the course of the fight they grew even stronger.

It doesn’t matter that we knew the top tiers existed. The main cast almost never interacted with them. The villains they were facing in power were jumping up as much in DB or in any other Shonen. People like Mihawk and WB were just something in the background that had no relation to the straw hat’s power levels.

It does matter since it creates bounds on power levels in OP verse. As a reader, I can be highly confident that literal planet destroying (e.g. blow up the planet) characters will not be introduced in OP because a top existed from the very beginning of the story that were never that strong. I couldn't and still can't say the same for DB. In fact I'd argue DB Super is trying to do the same as OP since right away they defined top tier in introducing Gods of Destruction, Angels and Zeno. Every villain introduced since DB Super started, no matter how much stronger than a previous villain has always been weaker than Angels and Zeno.

Yes OP is a shonen and people are constantly powering up each arc. What I think matters here is that OP basically said here is a ruler with a start and end. MC is at the start of the ruler, we know the people at the end of the ruler. Every arc MC and enemy they fight are in the middle of the ruler working their way towards the end of it. Not all Shonen do this which makes power scaling worse a la DB.

 

[LadyVados]

Yes Fuji could not stop it either. Attack power does not equate overall strength of a character as it is only one aspect of fighting. Someone weak with the Gura Gura no mi, Goro Goro no mi, or Magu Magu no mi would have some of the highest attack power in the OP verse. Heck we saw that with Enel who had and I'd argue still has one of the highest attack power in OP but is still not a strong character.


I agree with this. Rooftop Luffy, Kidd and Law to me are all YC1+ in strength and through the course of the fight they grew even stronger.


It does matter since it creates bounds on power levels in OP verse. As a reader, I can be highly confident that literal planet destroying (e.g. blow up the planet) characters will not be introduced in OP because a top existed from the very beginning of the story that were never that strong. I couldn't and still can't say the same for DB. In fact I'd argue DB Super is trying to do the same as OP since right away they defined top tier in introducing Gods of Destruction, Angels and Zeno. Every villain introduced since DB Super started, no matter how much stronger than a previous villain has always been weaker than Angels and Zeno.

Yes OP is a shonen and people are constantly powering up each arc. What I think matters here is that OP basically said here is a ruler with a start and end. MC is at the start of the ruler, we know the people at the end of the ruler. Every arc MC and enemy they fight are in the middle of the ruler working their way towards the end of it. Not all Shonen do this which makes power scaling worse a la DB.

But I fail to see how relevant that is to powering up between arcs. EL Arc Luffy is >>> EB Arc Luffy and FI Luffy is >>> EB Arc Luffy even though they are all <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Whitebeard. Yes we had an upper bound but that has nothing to do with big power-ups in between arcs since for much of the series the straw hats have been leagues below that upper bound.

The villains jump up in power every arc just like in DB. Would DB have been different if we were introduced to Zeno in Early Dragonball ? Heck we were introduced to Arale who as it turns out is actually capable of busting universes and she was portrayed as much stronger than DB Goku (though it wasn’t left clear how much) Which is actually kind of true for OP. We didn’t know in Baratie that Mihawk could slice up islands and shit. We just knew he was a lot stronger than Luffy and Zoro at the time.

 

[McNuss]

Most people consider Cracker stronger than Doffy. Most people consider Diamanté stronger than Hody. Most people consider the fat fish stronger than Moriah. Most people consider Absalom stronger than Lucci. Most people consider Blueno stronger than Enel. Most people consider the priest with the balls stronger than Crocodile. Most people consider Mr. 2 stronger than Arlong.

Yikes! No.

Except for the Diamante and Hody part. And who is "the fat fish"?? oO Wadatsumi? Then, yikes, no!

 

[LadyVados]

Yikes! No.

Except for the Diamante and Hody part. And who is "the fat fish"?? oO Wadatsumi? Then, yikes, no!

Wadatsumi yes ! That’s it ! I couldn’t remember his name.

 

[McNuss]

But I fail to see how relevant that is to powering up between arcs. EL Arc Luffy is >>> EB Arc Luffy and FI Luffy is >>> EB Arc Luffy even though they are all <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Whitebeard. Yes we had an upper bound but that has nothing to do with big power-ups in between arcs since for much of the series the straw hats have been leagues below that upper bound.

The villains jump up in power every arc just like in DB. Would DB have been different if we were introduced to Zeno in Early Dragonball ? Heck we were introduced to Arale who as it turns out is actually capable of busting universes and she was portrayed as much stronger than DB Goku (though it wasn’t left clear how much) Which is actually kind of true for OP. We didn’t know in Baratie that Mihawk could slice up islands and shit. We just knew he was a lot stronger than Luffy and Zoro at the time.

BS.

The good guys in One Piece pretty much only power up when literally mentioned, too.

If you read it like that, scaling suddenly becomes a non-issue.

 

[XXGenesis]

When you troll a fans fav characters or characters they like. & try to make said character comparable to weaker characters the Convo gets toxic….It’s all agenda based, some are blatant others like to think they are being low key.

King being compared to Katakuri is a Luffy’s fan boy agenda of trying to say Zoro isn’t on Luffy’s lv; because he can’t defeat Katakuri….ignoring the context that Zoro has AP above his lv, & extreme endurance.

Sanji Fan boys think because the fight with Queen wasn’t extreme Diff like Zoro’s fight Vs king. Sanji can defeat King also…..ignoring that the chapters were divided and spaced out the fight was actually mid-high Diff.

Zoro fan boys get caught up with Zoro hype, saying he’s stronger than Luffy, he’s gonna ZKK etc etc.

All ya need to chill and remeber this shit is fictional literature

 

[DeadlyBeast]

But I fail to see how relevant that is to powering up between arcs. EL Arc Luffy is >>> EB Arc Luffy and FI Luffy is >>> EB Arc Luffy even though they are all <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Whitebeard. Yes we had an upper bound but that has nothing to do with big powers ups in between arcs since for much of the series the straw hats have been leagues below that upper bound.

I think power scaling is a thing in most types of fiction even outside of shonen but not all power scaling is same across all types of fiction as the power scaling scheme is tailored to the type of story being told e.g. difference in defining the top of scale early on vs leaving it open ended. The reason this matters to me is, in stories where the top is defined early such as OP you get a couple of benefits:

• As a reader you can gauge progress of protagonist more easily e.g. easier to know how close Luffy is to the end state by seeing who he can beat (in DB there wasn't even a concept of end state)
• Having a top to the scale acts as a forcing function on the author to have smaller leaps in power between villains e.g. to this day Luffy can be encumbered by fodder at the bottom of scale vs in DB fodder might as well not exist
  • This also has secondary benefit of creating more dynamical tiering of power level where you can get things like A > B and B > C and C > A

All of this to say, we should try to not generalize power scaling across works of fiction without taking into account the type of power scaling being used.

Now where this convo started (at least when I entered it) was about current Zoro and where he places relative to current Luffy and Yonko. I said Luffy at least in the current moment out ranks Zoro because Luffy has better mastery in all forms of haki. Luffy can use future sight, Luffy can use aCoA, and Luffy can freely use aCoC. Zoro has not been shown to use aCOO, has not been shown to use aCoA, and is barely making use of aCoC.

 

[Core D. Roy]

All ya need to chill and remeber this shit is fictional literature

I will never understand this urge for people to go into a discussion about a specific topic, and then do this "it's just X" posturing as if they're on some high horse above it all. Sure people have biases, some FAR greater than others, but not everyone has an "agenda" lol. Why bother coming into a power scaling thread if you're going to look at literally any opinion and just go 'yeah that person's just a fanboy'.

King being compared to Katakuri isn't some Luffy fanboy's fantasy, they're both right-hands of two captains that are notoriously equal. There's nothing ridiculous about suggesting King and Katakuri are basically at the same level, averaging out ability advantages.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2022 ---

Even Fuji couldn’t stop Birdcage, it definitely does not scale to Doffy’s regular attacks.

There is a 0% chance Fuji was going all out at any point in Dressrosa. He wasn't allowed to directly interfere with Doffy's rule. Remember the whole thing about Fuji's desire to dismantle the Warlord system? His limitations in being able to liberate places like Dressrosa was part of that reason.

Also, Birdcage is like the worst reference point for power scaling in the New World.

 

[XXGenesis]

I will never understand this urge for people to go into a discussion about a specific topic, and then do this "it's just X" posturing as if they're on some high horse above it all. Sure people have biases, some FAR greater than others, but not everyone has an "agenda" lol. Why bother coming into a power scaling thread if you're going to look at literally any opinion and just go 'yeah that person's just a fanboy'.

King being compared to Katakuri isn't some Luffy fanboy's fantasy, they're both right-hands of two captains that are notoriously equal. There's nothing ridiculous about suggesting King and Katakuri are basically at the same level, averaging out ability advantages.

The way an argument is constructed and by whom I can tell if it’s an agenda. I haven’t accused anyone those guilty know who they are

No not everything isn’t an agenda, it’s actually discussion. But it’s not ironic, or coincidence certain topics and subjects arise to push back against bad takes. Then “insert character name” all of a sudden is on the hot seat….it’s a petty way to get at another fan base but it just leads to toxi

I don’t understand why bad takes are just isolated. Or simply met with more patience and if someone is doubling down on nonsense or a horrible take let it be, it’s not gonna hurt anyone.

Yes I’m above it all now. Idc what perspective others hold, I’m not about to adamantly try to change their mind, they have the right to take what they want away from the story, if they are just wrong hey it’s their lost for not getting what Oda was really trying to portray.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Most people consider Cracker stronger than Doffy.

I mean kinda? I put Doffy higher but that's a potential ability mismatch in either direction.

Most people consider Diamanté stronger than Hody.

Maybe? Why or how could anyone assume that, they were both absolute chumps.

Most people consider the fat fish stronger than Moriah.

Lmfao in no way is Wadatsumi stronger than Moriah.

Most people consider Absalom stronger than Lucci.

...what??? HOW?!

Most people consider Blueno stronger than Enel.

Okay that's pretty silly, even if Enel's scaling is notoriously difficult to pin down.

Most people consider the priest with the balls stronger than Crocodile.

I'm beginning to suspect that when you say "most people", you're just referring to yourself.

Most people consider Mr. 2 stronger than Arlong.

Literally the only example you listed that I actually agree with.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Zoro is stronger than Yamato who gave Hybrid Kaido a good fight. Base drunk Kaido beat WCI Luffy in 1 second flat.

Zoro >= Yamato < Hybrid Kaido > Base Kaido > Drunk Base Kaido >>> WCI Luffy.

Zoro should be stronger than the drunk base Kaido who fodderized WCI Luffy.

He said it was good that I was banned from Mangahelpers and should get banned from everywhere else too and my opinions were stupid and good riddance.

BASED ON WHAT?

 

[Core D. Roy]

The way an argument is constructed and by whom I can tell if it’s an agenda. I haven’t accused anyone those guilty know who they are

No not everything isn’t an agenda, it’s actually discussion. But it’s not ironic, or coincidence certain topics and subjects arise to push back against bad takes. Then “insert character name” all of a sudden is on the hot seat….it’s a petty way to get at another fan base but it just leads to toxi

I don’t understand why bad takes are just isolated. Or simply met with more patience and if someone is doubling down on nonsense or a horrible take let it be, it’s not gonna hurt anyone.

Yes I’m above it all now. Idc what perspective others hold, I’m not about to adamantly try to change their mind, they have the right to take what they want away from the story, if they are just wrong hey it’s their lost for not getting what Oda was really trying to portray.

I apologize if you're ESL, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I'm struggling to parse out what you mean. It sounds like you see people arguing/debating about power scaling in a thread about power scaling, come in with nothing to say and no opinions about power scaling, and then agree you're 'above it all now'. Like you literally just stepped in here to say you're better than everyone else, and contributed nothing to the discussion?

It's their loss for "not getting what Oda was really trying to portray"? Uh... cool I guess?

 

[Pirate Queen]

I mean kinda? I put Doffy higher but that's a potential ability mismatch in either direction.



Maybe? Why or how could anyone assume that, they were both absolute chumps.



Lmfao in no way is Wadatsumi stronger than Moriah.



...what??? HOW?!



Okay that's pretty silly, even if Enel's scaling is notoriously difficult to pin down.



I'm beginning to suspect that when you say "most people", you're just referring to yourself.



Literally the only example you listed that I actually agree with.

If you go back to his past comments it is always "every other forums" "most people are saying" "majority says" "bigger forums actually agree"

Is old at this point. King Moe used to do it constantly.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Luffy fans try to argue that Doffy and Kata’s attack power was higher than Dressrosa Zoro’s though.

I disagree. In East Blue we were introduced to Arlong and his crew. Then in Alabasta we had a whole new set of villains- Baroque Works and Crocodile who were all much stronger than Arlong and co. Then we were introduced to Enel and his buddies who were clearly on a different level to Baroque works. Then we meet CP9 who are on a completely different level than the previous villains. Then we meet the Thriller Bark characters who are on a completely different level from them.

Most people consider Cracker stronger than Doffy. Most people consider Diamanté stronger than Hody. Most people consider the fat fish stronger than Moriah. Most people consider Absalom stronger than Lucci. Most people consider Blueno stronger than Enel. Most people consider the priest with the balls stronger than Crocodile. Most people consider Mr. 2 stronger than Arlong.

Ehhhhh this is not true for some
Absalon is absolutely not stronger than Lucci , lucci probably could smell and hear him as well as use iron body , absalon gets wrecked by lucci , and he’s far superior physically and as a fighter

enel also beats the shit outta blueno Come one

no one considers the priests stronger than crocodile, they can’t even harm him

okay mr 2 and Arlong I can hear the case for mr 2

the fat fish is absolutely not stronger than moriah , wadatsumi doesn’t know any fishman karate or a particular good fighter

 

[XXGenesis]

I apologize if you're ESL, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I'm struggling to parse out what you mean. It sounds like you see people arguing/debating about power scaling in a thread about power scaling, come in with nothing to say and no opinions about power scaling, and then agree you're 'above it all now'. Like you literally just stepped in here to say you're better than everyone else, and contributed nothing to the discussion?

It's their loss for "not getting what Oda was really trying to portray"? Uh... cool I guess?

If that’s what you took from it. Kool. I type from a phone so I make a lot of mistakes.

Hope your friend “love of your post” makes your feel good. Lol

You felt the need to defend the spite King/Katakuri/Zoro debate. You must be one of those ppl that bring this up not as a true power scale discussion but to spite Zoro fans, who may think Zoro can take Katakuri because he has ACoC.

Interesting how my main point was non-toxic debate but you took what you took from it. Hope that lil Love like makes you feel good lol

 

[Core D. Roy]

If that’s what you took from it. Kool. I type from a phone so I make a lot of mistakes.

Hope your friend “love of your post” makes your feel good. Lol

You felt the need to defend the spite King/Katakuri/Zoro debate. You must be one of those ppl that bring this up not as a true power scale discussion but to spite Zoro fans, who may think Zoro can take Katakuri because he has ACoC.

Interesting how my main point was non-toxic debate but you took what you took from it. Hope that lil Love like makes you feel good lol

I still have no idea what you're trying to say.

The only thing I've said about Zoro/Katakuri is that Zoro could possibly take him, but I don't see swordsmanship alone doing him any favors against mochi awakening and Zoro has little countering against future sight.

And again, you're in here not having an opinion beyond 'other peoples' opinions are bad/toxic/whatever', no matter what they say. What're you even doing here lol

Lmfao just realized you still on my hammer, from months ago…lmfao grow up boy

MAKE SENSE PLEASE, PERSON I DON'T KNOW

 

[M3J]

ACoC isn't enough to beat Katakuri though, not if Katakuri can't be touched. Zoro has not shown the speed or ability to touch Katakuri.

 

[McNuss]

There's nothing ridiculous about suggesting King and Katakuri are basically at the same level, averaging out ability advantages.

It's not ridiculous, but upon looking into it further imho suggest that it is not the case and that is what I would like to discuss, instead we are now seriously talking about wether Satori is stronger than Crocodile or things like that...

 

[DeadlyBeast]

It's not ridiculous, but upon looking into it further imho suggest that it is not the case and that is what I would like to discuss, instead we are now seriously talking about wether Satori is stronger than Crocodile or things like that...

I'd give the edge to Kata over King. The ACOO is pretty difficult to overcome. The way I see it is Kata should be able to dodge a lot of King's attacks despite his speed since he was able to dodge Luffy's black mamba attack when using G4 snakeman which I think is relatively in the same ball park of speed if not faster than King.

On top of that I think Kata is smart enough to figure out the trick behind Kings abilities. So combined with his ACOO he'd just need to get his timing right to hurt King. I don't think this would be a walk in the park fight but on average I see this match up going in Kata's favor 55/45. King would still be able to win to since he should be able to land hits eventually, especially if it takes Kata a long time to deal enough damage to take King out. The longer the fight the more it is in King's favor.

Honestly, both of them have their own unique brokenish ability. Kata with future sight and King with his flames. I think Kata would fare worse fighting someone who uses area of effect attacks since he can't take advantage of his ACOO to dodge as easily.