One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Well, Perospero would've won anyway. But yeah, the dude is nowhere close to as strong as Jack.
Jack solo'd a bunch of stronger sulong minks.


Shanks is probably a lot better in all three haki thought.
As of now, saying Shanks > Kaido is pure headcanon and baseless. After what has been said about Kaido, as well as his feats in the current arc.
But, Shanks certainly has the hype. Depends on what Oda is planning for him in the future.



The fact that Jack couldn't beat each of them in 12 hours, it suggests that the power level difference VERY low. This is the obvious implication here.
And yes, Jack does come out better, because he was fighting non stop while Cat and Dog were switching.

If Jack is 100, base Cat/Dog are 98 or 99

Sulong Cat/Dog would be on the upper ends of YC2 tier. The boost from Sulong transformations is pretty high. Look at what it did to a fodder like Carrot in the WCI arc

Man kaido can use all 3 advanced types of haki freely , I don’t think shanks would be so much better that it would place him ahead
Unless he can do something crazy like equip his blade with all 3 Hakis in an attack

and yeah perospero might have won but the fact he felt threaten should say he’s not in the same class as jack/inu/neko and ashura doji as fighters , not even close at all to them when jack has a far superior feat

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

At this point, is there is any doubt that Kaido is the strongest pirate alive?

The dominance he's shown as a villain hasn't been seen since Crocodile. Even surpassed that dominance, by far.

I feel if you replaced the Old sick Whitebeard in Marineford with Kaido while everything stays the same, then the marines would've been truly screwed. The likes of Garp and Sengoku wouldn't have been sitting around doing nothing.
He's got the endurance Whitebeard showed but without the weaknesses plus his inert durability and tough hide.
TBH, any of the current Yonko would defeat the old and sick Whitebeard in a 1v1 with very high to extreme difficulty and Kaido would be first on my list.

Unless he can do something crazy like equip his blade with all 3 Hakis in an attack

How does CoO or future sight benefits a blade? How???

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I feel if you replaced the Old sick Whitebeard in Marineford with Kaido while everything stays the same, then the marines would've been truly screwed. The likes of Garp and Sengoku wouldn't have been sitting around doing nothing.
He's got the endurance Whitebeard showed but without the weaknesses plus his inert durability and tough hide.
TBH, any of the current Yonko would defeat the old and sick Whitebeard in a 1v1 with very high to extreme difficulty and Kaido would be first on my list.

How does CoO or future sight benefits a blade? How???

I don’t think it makes much of a difference cause garp and Sengoku didn’t participate , I think jus those 2 contained the entire Blackbeard crew pretty comfortably, I think they could take Kaido

who knows combining all 3 might level up the attack heck all COC used to do was knock people out with weak spirits

 

[grey matter]

Man kaido can use all 3 advanced types of haki freely , I don’t think shanks would be so much better that it would place him ahead
Unless he can do something crazy like equip his blade with all 3 Hakis in an attack

and yeah perospero might have won but the fact he felt threaten should say he’s not in the same class as jack/inu/neko and ashura doji as fighters , not even close at all to them when jack has a far superior feat

Ehh, Roger and peak WB are considerably stronger than Kaido IMO. There are levels to haki.

Agreed on that. Perospero is a tier below all of them.

I feel if you replaced the Old sick Whitebeard in Marineford with Kaido while everything stays the same, then the marines would've been truly screwed. The likes of Garp and Sengoku wouldn't have been sitting around doing nothing.
He's got the endurance Whitebeard showed but without the weaknesses plus his inert durability and tough hide.
TBH, any of the current Yonko would defeat the old and sick Whitebeard in a 1v1 with very high to extreme difficulty and Kaido would be first on my list.

How does CoO or future sight benefits a blade? How???

If Garp and Sengoku joins, it wouldn't have mattered.
The only reason it seemed close was because those two just sat on their asses until BB showed up
Yeah, I agree that any of the other 3 Yonkos would beat old + sick WB we saw in Marineford. Though, old WB who's not off his meds for long, was still the strongest Yonko IMO

I mean, we never knew Conqueror's haki could do all these lol.
But I get your point. Conqueror's haki always exterted "pressure" and "force". So, coating this isn't was wild.
But..........this is Oda lol. We may never know

 

[McNuss]

TO QUOTE PEROSPERO , carrot and wanda had a great chance against him , just 2 suulong minks against him, he credited their loss to the moon going

this is jack who is roughly at par with inu/neko and ashura , steamrolling dozens of suulong minks at par or stronger than wanda/carrot

I can't see shanks being more durable, having more stamina, raw strength or the versatility of kaido , I can't see him being that much better at the 3 hakis than kaido

That's an interesting panel but I am not really questiong Jack >>>Perospero and the Tierlist just isn't complete yet. I am also not placing Carrot and Wanda yet, for Carrot I need more WCI characters and on that pretty much relies Wanda's placement, too.

What I am talking about is Inu/Neko more in regards to the characters below Perospero.

Well, Perospero would've won anyway. But yeah, the dude is nowhere close to as strong as Jack.
Jack solo'd a bunch of stronger sulong minks.

Yeah, that's the point, he seems to be mocking them rather than being actually threatened.

The fact that Jack couldn't beat each of them in 12 hours, it suggests that the power level difference VERY low. This is the obvious implication here.
And yes, Jack does come out better, because he was fighting non stop while Cat and Dog were switching.

And that's exactly the wrong way to tackle it and imho a case of bias towards the good guys. It's not Jack that couldn't beat each of them, it is them that couldn't beat Jack in, I don't know how long it went exactly, a week or something? They refreshed their stamina, Jack didn't, yet they couln't even bother him much.

Jack is like a gearcheck encounter, he is like Patchwork in Naxxramas if anyone remembers, he has no special feats. But even with swapping main tanks, the entire Mink tribe, which is plenty strong, couldn't solve this encounter.

If their difference were really 98 to a 100, then they would have just teamed up and beaten him, feud aside, you don't even need to settle your feud for that. The Minks were 100% dedicated to their cause of protecting Raizo, there was no messing around and them keeping up with the swapping in this extreme situation was clearly a battle strategy. There was no chance of overpowering Jack.

Inu/Neko=Jack is bollocks. I can't even safely put Inu/Neko much above Izo with what we have. Izo is 510M, Perospero 700M, both are veterans from Roger's era just like the rest of the Scabbards and while bounty isn't strenght, huge differences among contemporaries should not be neglected, and I don't see anyone among the Scabbards much past the 500M range of that generation.

I also can't see either Inu or Neko beating up Brook and Chopper that quickly.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

I feel if you replaced the Old sick Whitebeard in Marineford with Kaido while everything stays the same, then the marines would've been truly screwed. The likes of Garp and Sengoku wouldn't have been sitting around doing nothing.
He's got the endurance Whitebeard showed but without the weaknesses plus his inert durability and tough hide.
TBH, any of the current Yonko would defeat the old and sick Whitebeard in a 1v1 with very high to extreme difficulty and Kaido would be first on my list.

Idk, if you reread WCI, it looks more like Big Mom > Kaido, but readers wouldn't bother because she is a "joke character".

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

That's an interesting panel but I am not really questiong Jack >>>Perospero and the Tierlist just isn't complete yet. I am also not placing Carrot and Wanda yet, for Carrot I need more WCI characters and on that pretty much relies Wanda's placement, too.

What I am talking about is Inu/Neko more in regards to the characters below Perospero.


Yeah, that's the point, he seems to be mocking them rather than being actually threatened.



And that's exactly the wrong way to tackle it and imho a case of bias towards the good guys. It's not Jack that couldn't beat each of them, it is them that couldn't beat Jack in, I don't know how long it went exactly, a week or something? They refreshed their stamina, Jack didn't, yet they couln't even bother him much.

Jack is like a gearcheck encounter, he is like Patchwork in Naxxramas if anyone remembers, he has no special feats. But even with swapping main tanks, the entire Mink tribe, which is plenty strong, couldn't solve this encounter.

If their difference were really 98 to a 100, then they would have just teamed up and beaten him, feud aside, you don't even need to settle your feud for that. The Minks were 100% dedicated to their cause of protecting Raizo, there was no messing around and them keeping up with the swapping in this extreme situation was clearly a battle strategy. There was no chance of overpowering Jack.

Inu/Neko=Jack is bollocks. I can't even safely put Inu/Neko much above Izo with what we have. Izo is 510M, Perospero 700M, both are veterans from Roger's era just like the rest of the Scabbards and while bounty isn't strenght, huge differences among contemporaries should not be neglected, and I don't see anyone among the Scabbards much past the 500M range of that generation.

I also can't see either Inu or Neko beating up Brook and Chopper that quickly.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

Idk, if you reread WCI, it looks more like Big Mom > Kaido, but readers wouldn't bother because she is a "joke character".

If you can fight for 12 hours you’re deffs close to that lefel or within range
His Stanina and endurance is better which makes sense given that he’s younger but fighting skill and strength they’re within the same range
Jack is zoan so that gives durability and stamina boost

entire ordeal was dumb tho , they should have tag teamed and destroyed jack

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I don’t think it makes much of a difference cause garp and Sengoku didn’t participate , I think jus those 2 contained the entire Blackbeard crew pretty comfortably, I think they could take Kaido

who knows combining all 3 might level up the attack heck all COC used to do was knock people out with weak spirits

Of course they'd take him on and have him beat if it came down to it.
The issue is they didn't really get to do anything cos the Marines still had a lot of forces left before Blackbeard and Co intervened. Wouldn't be that way if Marine forces had been reduced to the bare minimum. Whitebeard himself caused a lack of concentration at critical moments for his own troops due to his illness and inability to harness CoC and CoO

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

Idk, if you reread WCI, it looks more like Big Mom > Kaido, but readers wouldn't bother because she is a "joke character".

She's not a joke to me. Just too dangerous that the story has to go in weird directions to keep her from shining. It's Kaido's arc after all...
Without her being present, Kaido should be eating his Ls by now.
A similar thing was done to Marco in order to prevent him from taking much credit at the expense of Zoro.

But between Big Mom and Kaido in a 1v1 I'd give Kaido the slight edge. It'd be the most extreme battle since Roger and Whitebeard esp if there really has to be a winner.
IMO, he's currently the closest in power level to a prime Roger and Whitebeard among characters still alive. It's obvious Luffy will surpass the 2 legends with current developments. Until then, hats off to Kaido
He's One Piece's Madara lol

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022 ---

Roger and peak WB are considerably stronger than Kaido IMO. There are levels to haki.

If you're talking about Kaido of the past yeah I'd agree but current Kaido? Naaa it's slim. I'm tempted to say very slim but still have to chill till Wano is over.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Like there’s nothing on panel that actually places whitebeard and roger above kaido
I believe it’s likely they are
But he’s performed the peak ability of every skill
He’s damn near maxed out in every single category
DF
Raw strength
Speed
All 3 hakis
Durability and stamina

 

[grey matter]

If you're talking about Kaido of the past yeah I'd agree but current Kaido? Naaa it's slim. I'm tempted to say very slim but still have to chill till Wano is over.

Like there’s nothing on panel that actually places whitebeard and roger above kaido
I believe it’s likely they are
But he’s performed the peak ability of every skill
He’s damn near maxed out in every single category
DF
Raw strength
Speed
All 3 hakis
Durability and stamina

Roger and WB have the portrayal which puts them considerably above the current Yonkos, and yes Kaido too.


Old WB (in meds), was referred to as the strongest pirate by pretty much everyone.
Old WB, in meds, had haki on par with Shanks. Shanks is arguably the strongest haki user alive currently. And was one shotting a Jinbe tier in his sleep.
Peak WB is considerably stronger than Old WB in meds.


WB also has a higher bounty than Kaido. This is, inspite of the fact that WB is a mostly peaceful pirate, who doesn't fight unless provoked. While Kaido and his crew has the infamy of being the most violent crew, toppled countries' govt, involved in illegal trade and bio weapons etc
(Roger has a higher bounty, but you could argue that it's due to infamy of becoming PK and finding LaughTale, so I won't use that)


Characters mentioning all the time about how Roger owned the era, and then WB after Roger died. How WB could've become the PK if and when he pleased, but he just chose to sit besides the throne.


BM mentioning how she could've beaten Kaido, Shanks and even WB, if she had alliance with Elbaf.

So on.

There is a lot of narrative, statements and portrayal suggesting that WB and Roger are on a different level from Kaido. Not sure how people ignore it at this point.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

And that's exactly the wrong way to tackle it and imho a case of bias towards the good guys. It's not Jack that couldn't beat each of them, it is them that couldn't beat Jack in, I don't know how long it went exactly, a week or something? They refreshed their stamina, Jack didn't, yet they couln't even bother him much.

Jack is like a gearcheck encounter, he is like Patchwork in Naxxramas if anyone remembers, he has no special feats. But even with swapping main tanks, the entire Mink tribe, which is plenty strong, couldn't solve this encounter.

If their difference were really 98 to a 100, then they would have just teamed up and beaten him, feud aside, you don't even need to settle your feud for that. The Minks were 100% dedicated to their cause of protecting Raizo, there was no messing around and them keeping up with the swapping in this extreme situation was clearly a battle strategy. There was no chance of overpowering Jack.

Inu/Neko=Jack is bollocks. I can't even safely put Inu/Neko much above Izo with what we have. Izo is 510M, Perospero 700M, both are veterans from Roger's era just like the rest of the Scabbards and while bounty isn't strenght, huge differences among contemporaries should not be neglected, and I don't see anyone among the Scabbards much past the 500M range of that generation.

I also can't see either Inu or Neko beating up Brook and Chopper that quickly.

I'm sorry dude.
You can't be far ahead of someone and then fail to beat him in 12 hours! Just not happening, nothing to do with bias for good guys. If anything, I almost always cheer for the villain.

Why they didn't team up? Cause it has something to do with all the duke of day/lord of night stuff. Kinda stupid? Yeah. But it's what Oda decided to do.

 

[really_jonny]

It was confirmed in Ace novel that: WB Prime>>Kaido=Big Mom>>>Old WB.

 

[Crimson Ice]

It was confirmed in Ace novel that: WB Prime>>Kaido=Big Mom>>>Old WB.

Oh really? What quote confirmed that because the manga says otherwise.

 

[McNuss]

I'm sorry dude.
You can't be far ahead of someone and then fail to beat him in 12 hours! Just not happening, nothing to do with bias for good guys. If anything, I almost always cheer for the villain.

Why they didn't team up? Cause it has something to do with all the duke of day/lord of night stuff. Kinda stupid? Yeah. But it's what Oda decided to do.

So the one is capable of fighting for 12h and the other for five days (120h).

120 is ten times higher than 12, how are we even questionng that?? There's simple numerical value given here, it is almost like Doriki.

He only failed to beat them since they could retreat.

 

[LaGOAT]

It’s not that hard Rogers>=WB>kaido>BM>Shanks>BB

 

[grey matter]

So the one is capable of fighting for 12h and the other for five days (120h).

120 is ten times higher than 12, how are we even questionng that?? There's simple numerical value given here, it is almost like Doriki.

He only failed to beat them since they could retreat.

Dude.

Let's assume the gap was high between Jack and base Cat/Dog
What stops him from beating them up within TWELVE HOURS? The fact that he couldn't, means that their combat stats were around the same level, that is the only explanation for this. I mean, this should be powerscaling 101

Jack has amazing stamina, and this feat puts him slightly above base Cat/Dog overall. But the gap isn't really high

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

It’s not that hard Rogers>=WB>kaido>BM>Shanks>BB

Bold part, we don't really know.

If we're going based on bounty, then yeah. But portrayal wise, Kaido has the edge over other three. But amongst the other three, we don't know where each stand.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Dude.

Let's assume the gap was high between Jack and base Cat/Dog
What stops him from beating them up within TWELVE HOURS? The fact that he couldn't, means that their combat stats were around the same level, that is the only explanation for this. I mean, this should be powerscaling 101

Jack has amazing stamina, and this feat puts him slightly above base Cat/Dog overall. But the gap isn't really high

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

Bold part, we don't really know.

If we're going based on bounty, then yeah. But portrayal wise, Kaido has the edge over other three. But amongst the other three, we don't know where each stand.

BB currently probably will be the weakest, but he'll get stronger.

 

[McNuss]

Dude.

Let's assume the gap was high between Jack and base Cat/Dog
What stops him from beating them up within TWELVE HOURS? The fact that he couldn't, means that their combat stats were around the same level, that is the only explanation for this. I mean, this should be powerscaling 101

Jack has amazing stamina, and this feat puts him slightly above base Cat/Dog overall. But the gap isn't really high

What stopped them from beating Jack within 120h? Oh right the fact he has amazing stamina and can actually last more than 120h. What stopped him from beating them within 12h? Oh right, the fact he didn't get a 13. h because they were taking turns and could rest in between.

Don't think your argument got stronger with a facepalm emoji, it did not.

 

[grey matter]

What stopped them from beating Jack within 120h? Oh right the fact he has amazing stamina and can actually last more than 120h. What stopped him from beating them within 12h? Oh right, the fact he didn't get a 13. h because they were taking turns and could rest in between.

Don't think your argument got stronger with a facepalm emoji, it did not.

It's impossible to reason with you. What's with this logic lol.
You claim Jack is far stronger than base Cat/Dog. So, why didn't he finish each of them in a 1v1 in 12 hours, if the gap is so high? Think dude, wtf.

Oh, he didn't get 13 hours, that's the excuse........ Cat and Dog were fine after 12 hours, the only reason they were taking turns was because of their stubbornness and ego, which was clearly explained in that arc. Not really because they were exhausted.

I've never claimed base Cat /Dog > Jack

I said Jack > both, but gap is small. They're around the same level in combat stats, hence each being unable to end the fight in 12 hours. But Jack has better stamina feats here, due to the fact that he fought without break for days.
This is the clear and obvious implication of these feats. The fact that this isn't clear and obvious is baffling to me.

 

[McNuss]

I said Jack > both, but gap is small. They're around the same level in combat stats, hence each being unable to end the fight in 12 hours. But Jack has better stamina feats here, due to the fact that he fought without break for days.
This is the clear and obvious implication of these feats. The fact that this isn't clear and obvious is baffling to me.

No, the clear implication is that his stamina is more than ten times higher than them. So what if he didn't beat them, Kaido can't beat Bartolomeo, almost no one can, does that mean Bartolomeo > everyone?

What matters is winning and the ones that did NOT win despite their advantage are Inu and Neko. They are the ones that had an advantage, not Jack, and they still didn't win. Not even when backed up by the likes of Pedro, Shishilian, Rody, Blackback, Giovanni, Concelot, Carrot, Wanda. Musceteers alone is 200 Minks. If Minks were actually close to Jack, than Inu and Shilian together should have been able to seal the deal, or Neko and Pedro. Its not what happened either.

There is only around 500 Gifters, and everything suggests Jack only led a split faction of them, as it is still around 500 after his fleet was sunk. Two headliners acommpanied him, Sheepshead and Ginrummy who are weaker than Brook, I mean honestly if Inu and Neko were 98% of Jack, you have to realize you blow any kind of scalings whatsoever. The entire Mokomo Dukedom couldn't beat Jack, two headliners and some maybe 50 Gifters if we are generous within 5 days!

But honestly, I am losing interest discussing with you. Don't want to get insulted here. You know your argument is weak, else you wouldn't lose the tone.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

What I have to add: Even after Jack beat all of the Sulong Minks, he still faced the two Dukes, completly fresh, in Sulong, together, and they could not knock him out fast enough before Kaido intervened.

They aren't close. Jack is many times stronger and nothing else makes sense.

 

[XXGenesis]

Fandom focuses too much on who’s actually stronger? Imo higher tiers each can pull a win over the other, given small situational changes either combatant can win…

Jack is not much stronger than Cat Viper or Dogstrom. If he was leagues & miles above them he wouldn’t stalemate with them. Resort to chemical warfare to get the win. Ashura Doji is also similar in power to Jack. As I would assume most of the scabbards can fare pretty well against him or defeat him.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

No, the clear implication is that his stamina is more than ten times higher than them. So what if he didn't beat them, Kaido can't beat Bartolomeo, almost no one can, does that mean Bartolomeo > everyone?

What matters is winning and the ones that did NOT win despite their advantage are Inu and Neko. They are the ones that had an advantage, not Jack, and they still didn't win. Not even when backed up by the likes of Pedro, Shishilian, Rody, Blackback, Giovanni, Concelot, Carrot, Wanda. Musceteers alone is 200 Minks. If Minks were actually close to Jack, than Inu and Shilian together should have been able to seal the deal, or Neko and Pedro. Its not what happened either.

There is only around 500 Gifters, and everything suggests Jack only led a split faction of them, as it is still around 500 after his fleet was sunk. Two headliners acommpanied him, Sheepshead and Ginrummy who are weaker than Brook, I mean honestly if Inu and Neko were 98% of Jack, you have to realize you blow any kind of scalings whatsoever. The entire Mokomo Dukedom couldn't beat Jack, two headliners and some maybe 50 Gifters if we are generous within 5 days!

But honestly, I am losing interest discussing with you. Don't want to get insulted here. You know your argument is weak, else you wouldn't lose the tone.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Mar 13, 2022 ---

What I have to add: Even after Jack beat all of the Sulong Minks, he still faced the two Dukes, completly fresh, in Sulong, together, and they could not knock him out fast enough before Kaido intervened.

They aren't close. Jack is many times stronger and nothing else makes sense.

Dude! You either have a hard-on for Jack or you're being extremely biased and ignoring Manga facts.

Jack and Inu (not Sulong) are equals
Jack and Neko (not Sulong) are equals.

Jack is the one who needed a win during the clash and he wasn't able to defeat either Minks. Rather he knew things were getting bad for him - obviously - and had to resort to underhanded tactics.

He's not above them in any department (even stamina could be argued) cos it's possible and very apparent either Mink could keep going on for as long as they wanted.

The baffling part is you saying Jack is "many times stronger". Then the same should be said of Kaido in comparison to Big Mom even when we are shown that both were tied during their clash for days. Wouldn't you call that ridiculous? Saying Kaido is many times stronger than Big Mom when the Manga alludes to no such thing is... *sighs*

I'd suggest a reread. It's human to forget how things went down especially in a long Manga like this and you're probably a victim of that. Some things become hazy with time.

Long story short you got it wrong here.