One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[john ellis]

@Pirate Queen I can’t see canonically anything besides a yonko harming luffy, even know Wano only yc2+ did anything to luff.

 

[Pirate Queen]

@Pirate Queen I can’t see canonically anything besides a yonko harming luffy, even know Wano only yc2+ did anything to luff.

Luffy is still gullible and will fall for the dumbest shit. Just watch, he's gunna get trapped in a maze or some dumb shit soon lol

 

[kkck]

I suppose we'll get moments of luffy awesomeness and moments if luffy being silly? It's hard to imagine luffy with the same constant kaido/big mom level invulnerability. But if he activates his CoC cladding... Uff, vice admiral or YC level folk will just bounce of him.

 

[Rikudou Sennin]

So Sanji’s ifrit jambe creates blue flames which is the hottest there is and hotter than Magma/Lava.

Does that mean Sanji can burn Akainu? I guess probably haki is in the way for now, until sanji awakens CoC (which storytelling wise will 100% happen).

 

[Pirate Queen]

So Sanji’s ifrit jambe creates blue flames which is the hottest there is and hotter than Magma/Lava.

Does that mean Sanji can burn Akainu? I guess probably haki is in the way for now, until sanji awakens CoC (which storytelling wise will 100% happen).

Technically Fire is hotter than Magma but Oda plays by his own rules because in One Piece Magma is hotter than fire somehow.

Marco's Blue fire is blue but it's unique in that it doesn't burn unless he wants it to.

Right now we don't have a basis to say:
Blue Fire>Magma> regular fire

 

[JStackz26]

I was wondering something. Sanji related again. Sanji seems to fight as if he's holding back And Oda showed us childhood trauma. I mentioned something about Pudding tampering with the Germa's memories of Sanji. Now what if she does that and also erases the memories of Sanji's childhood. Which are really only known to Sanji, Judge and Sanji's siblings. While Oda use that as a means to unlock battle potential for Sanji. Where he can still get angry but something of the inferiority that was instilled within him basically gets removed. Which expands his ability as a fighter. As Oda touched on him running away to think mid war. And the thing about Zeff and Sanji dulling his spear. It isn't the normal power up but he seems to have two cases of it.
The Germa and the time skip. Of course the latter seemed to help activate Hell's memories. So that one probably hasn't dulled his fighting like the childhood memories. This is hinted when Judge said he trained him in sword fighting and Sanji kicks the sword away. Then he rejects the raid suit. For example, King shows himself to be more Barbarian type that fighter. But he's a character that fights with a sword but not as a swordsman and uses kicks and punches as well. As does Katakuri. Beckmann probably is the same. Rifleman, blunt object and also hand to hand. In a sense it gives them variety in their style. So by Sanji choosing not to fight with a sword, he rejects this battle variety. And something like variety and battle versatility is shown with Luffy's both Zoan and Paramecia abilities. Technically it seems all mythical Zoans also display logia or paramecia like ability. But anyway Sanji rejecting his childhood is part of the reason he doesn't fight in those styles. Though we saw hint of it with the cooking knife. So although variety may not make him stronger than focusing on a kicking style, you can say he is suppressing his capabilities.
And you know we see something about this actually. Because as I said, Sanji showed his precision with blades against Wanze.
Then in WCI it is said he had swordsmanship training (though he didn't seem good at it in the post time skip flashback, the sea train hints that it might be the opposite).
Then we get Luffy carrying a famed sword and using it by throwing away the sheath, as well as holding it in his hand but throwing a punch with the hand holding the sword.
Which shows difference. One grabs a sword but knows not how to use it. The other rejects sword usage and knows how to use it. Zoro is a swordsman, embraces it and knows how to use a sword.
Strangely enough Zeff used the term dulling his spear and Sanji's father who is part of the cause of Sanji's complex uses a spear to fight.
In other words Pudding erasing the negative aspects of his Germa memories would be like allowing him to awaken abilities.
The other thing about Pudding, if you remember nightmare Luffy, Lola had collected shadows and used them on Luffy and one of them had Luffy using swords like an experienced fighter. Niji uses a sword. You never know if her Devil Fruit can copy memories instead of just remove them. Meaning she can steal memories without the amnesia affect. If so she could pretty much place Niji's sword training into Sanji's memories and possibly use that to expand Sanji's swordsmanship experience. He did mention something about fighting Yonko and needing to sacrifice pride. Of course this latter idea is less of what I was getting at and more of just Sanji being boosted by not having the repressed memories. Making him feel more free as a person and fighter and less restrained (not emotionless).

I meant to post this in the general forum but can't find the thread.

 

[LaGOAT]

Depends. If we are talking about pre-Gear 5 Luffy, he isn't above Kaido no matter how you put it. Gear 5 Luffy is a different story tho

Even in gear 5th he was till able to hang with him luffy never overwhelmed him

 

[Zehahaha]

Even in gear 5th he was till able to hang with him luffy never overwhelmed him

He didn't really overwhelm him the way he did with DD when he used Gear 4, but Kaido was clearly feeling it and struggling. More importantly, it felt that Luffy was able to tank Kaido's hits way better than before.

 

[albertwv]

I can't take y'all seriously, claiming a fresh Luffy could defeat a fresh Kaido in Round 2.
No way. Have you been asleep this whole time. Kaido has been fighting strong opponents right after the next. Luffy only has fought Apoo, Page 1, Ulti, and a Number. Half of them weren't actual fights. The damage Kaido took compared to Luffy is not the same at all.
Luffy kept getting defeated by Kaido and kept getting revived somehow.
Kaido did not get to recover the way Luffy did.

If this was arc had any logic, then we would have seen Luffy been defeated by Kaido once and for all, thus losing the raid. But Oda, had to pull miracles and asspulls for Luffy to keep getting up, just so we can progress with the insanely long arc.
Luffy attained ACoA, ACoC, mastery of ACoC, Gear 5, AND plot armor to defeat Kaido.

Give Kaido a rematch 1v1 with no plot armor, and he would win 9/10 times.

Luffy is NOT on Kaido's level yet.

During the Gear 5, I was not even sure who was in the lead, seem like Kaido since he was clubbing Gear 5 Luffy the whole time, but somehow Luffy had his defense go up. Gear 5 didn't really do much damage to Kaido after the introduction. Now on the other hand G4 vs DD, that was a spectacular fight, that had DD being thrown around Dressrosa and causing major destruction. With Gear 5 vs Kaido, it was rather limited and it seem like Luffy was the one being thrown around. I was hoping that we would see Kaido and Luffy go down to the ground and fight there on land rather than just the rooftop. Or heck even on the ground part of the island, just somewhere other than the rooftop.
That roof seemed more indestructible than Kaido or Big Mom. It withstood so many Yonko attacks.
It would have been a better ending if Luffy had punched Kaido down into the main floor of his castle or heck down to the main square of the capital, where Oden and Yasu were executed. it would have been right.

 

[aberick]

I can't take y'all seriously, claiming a fresh Luffy could defeat a fresh Kaido in Round 2.
No way. Have you been asleep this whole time. Kaido has been fighting strong opponents right after the next. Luffy only has fought Apoo, Page 1, Ulti, and a Number. Half of them weren't actual fights. The damage Kaido took compared to Luffy is not the same at all.
Luffy kept getting defeated by Kaido and kept getting revived somehow.
Kaido did not get to recover the way Luffy did.

If this was arc had any logic, then we would have seen Luffy been defeated by Kaido once and for all, thus losing the raid. But Oda, had to pull miracles and asspulls for Luffy to keep getting up, just so we can progress with the insanely long arc.
Luffy attained ACoA, ACoC, mastery of ACoC, Gear 5, AND plot armor to defeat Kaido.

Give Kaido a rematch 1v1 with no plot armor, and he would win 9/10 times.

Luffy is NOT on Kaido's level yet.

During the Gear 5, I was not even sure who was in the lead, seem like Kaido since he was clubbing Gear 5 Luffy the whole time, but somehow Luffy had his defense go up. Gear 5 didn't really do much damage to Kaido after the introduction. Now on the other hand G4 vs DD, that was a spectacular fight, that had DD being thrown around Dressrosa and causing major destruction. With Gear 5 vs Kaido, it was rather limited and it seem like Luffy was the one being thrown around. I was hoping that we would see Kaido and Luffy go down to the ground and fight there on land rather than just the rooftop. Or heck even on the ground part of the island, just somewhere other than the rooftop.
That roof seemed more indestructible than Kaido or Big Mom. It withstood so many Yonko attacks.
It would have been a better ending if Luffy had punched Kaido down into the main floor of his castle or heck down to the main square of the capital, where Oden and Yasu were executed. it would have been right.

i think you are the one who was sleeping, kaido face scabbards and yamato, if you think that they weakened kaido in a relevant way you are crazy, the only one who did it was luffy, luffy got knocked out 3 times and was crossing the path of death, receiving ALOT of letal damages, and still get up and now deafeated kaido even with all these damages, so, if you are smart enough you can see that luffy 100% in this last form can defeat kaido , he did it after getting K.O , while kaido not.
obs¹: and i not even need to mention that he had the disadvantage to start the fight alot weaker than he was in the end, right?

 

[albertwv]

i think you are the one who was sleeping, kaido face scabbards and yamato, if you think that they weakened kaido in a relevant way you are crazy, the only one who did it was luffy, luffy got knocked out 3 times and was crossing the path of death, receiving ALOT of letal damages, and still get up and now deafeated kaido even with all these damages, so, if you are smart enough you can see that luffy 100% in this last form can defeat kaido , he did it after getting K.O 3x, while kaido not.

Wake up,
Kaido faced all those strong opponents and knocked Luffy out 3 times!
yeah its amazing how Luffy kept getting up....or is it just plot armor? Think about it, do you seriously think if Luffy wasn't the main character he would have gotten that many power ups and recovery and stamina this whole time? It is ridiculous the amount of help Luffy received, nay I mean HANDICAP, in order to defeat Kaido.
Don't forget Yamato noted that Kaido was getting tired after fighting so much AND holding up a whole island with his power.
Luffy In Gear 5 could not damage Kaido, in fact it was Luffy who was receiving most of the attacks and not dodging.

Out of all of Luffy's fights, this one has had the most power ups, rest breaks, and asspulls to defeat the main villain.

 

[john ellis]

@LaGOAT luffy was kinda toying with kaido in g5, he was just messing around trying out what the form can do and kaido was full serious, the first g5 attack kaido took defeated him while luffy took many strong attacks from kaido in g5 without losing. So I think it portrays g5>kaido

 

[aberick]

Wake up,
Kaido faced all those strong opponents and knocked Luffy out 3 times!
yeah its amazing how Luffy kept getting up....or is it just plot armor? Think about it, do you seriously think if Luffy wasn't the main character he would have gotten that many power ups and recovery and stamina this whole time? It is ridiculous the amount of help Luffy received, nay I mean HANDICAP, in order to defeat Kaido.
Don't forget Yamato noted that Kaido was getting tired after fighting so much AND holding up a whole island with his power.
Luffy In Gear 5 could not damage Kaido, in fact it was Luffy who was receiving most of the attacks and not dodging.

Out of all of Luffy's fights, this one has had the most power ups, rest breaks, and asspulls to defeat the main villain.

lmao, do you really think yamato and scabbards was relevant to weaken kaido , thats funny, yes, he knocked luffy first time when luffy didnt even know how to coat himself with conquerors haki, second time it was a good fight and luffy was getting stronger and used to it , the third K.O was a third party CP0 guy holding luffy, and all these fatal damages was not enough to defeat him completely, he come back, awakening his akm and defeated kaido with both giving their all in a final clash, its ridiculous to say that kaido lose because he was wekened, luffy was ALOT tired than kaido at this point, and using a "plot armor" as argument is dumb, seriously, i can use it for every shounen as argument, common?

 

[M3J]

Round 2 Gear 5 Luffy with knowledge on Kaidou could likely win though. He'd know his and Kaidou's weaknesses and strengths and be able to fight accordingly.

 

[catagon87]

Luffy is still gullible and will fall for the dumbest shit. Just watch, he's gunna get trapped in a maze or some dumb shit soon lol

Chapter 1340:

Luffy meets Sugar in an alley.

The End.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2022, Original Post Date: May 18, 2022 ---

Round 2 Gear 5 Luffy with knowledge on Kaidou could likely win though. He'd know his and Kaidou's weaknesses and strengths and be able to fight accordingly.

I'm still curious about why Luffy was taking so many blows in G5. I guess his elasticity is such that even Kaido, who one shot him in Gear 4, cannot harm him. Going forward it seems like it'll take burning (Akainu), or internal damage (Blackbeard) to hurt Luffy. Oh, and advanced haki of course. Really wonder how his fight against Blackbeard will go since Blackbeard saps abilities, but as far as I can tell not strength.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2022 ---

@LaGOAT luffy was kinda toying with kaido in g5, he was just messing around trying out what the form can do and kaido was full serious, the first g5 attack kaido took defeated him while luffy took many strong attacks from kaido in g5 without losing. So I think it portrays g5>kaido

Luffy did more than one gear 5 attack against Kaido...

I mean his debut in G5 was pulling Kaido up, smashing him around, deflecting a breath attack at him.. Then he used him as a jump rope, punched him through the face, ballooned him from inside, and in general was landing tons of punches on Kaido.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2022 ---

So where should we rank the CP0 agents we saw in this arc?
I don't like how Oda did them dirty. Like how Maha was taken out by Izo at the same time, and the fight was obviously off-paneled. Just like how Drake and the other CP0 agent's fight was off-paneled only to reveal the CP0 agent won, kinda.

They were able to manage to defeat Izo and Drake, and scare away Apoo. So they are at least Flying 6 or Yonko Executive level, below YC or at best YC3/4.

Oda did bad on introducing them in Onigashima only for them to fall so quickly. All that hype for nothing. Now I can only expect for Lucci and Kaku to be stronger if not CP0 will be seriously a disappointment. I was hoping that the Masked Man that interfered with Luffy vs Kaido, would be their leader and the strongest among the CP0s. But now it seems Lucci may be stronger.

Hard to say. We mostly saw him defeating people until he didn't (getting squished by Kaido). It's implied that CP0 is formidable. Also, they are kind of a direct hand of the Tenryuubito, and the Tenryuubito also have Admirals at their disposal so I'd argue that the bar of a CP0 agent is probably pretty high. I would imagine the organization as a whole has at least one admiral level fighter within.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2022 ---

I suppose we'll get moments of luffy awesomeness and moments if luffy being silly? It's hard to imagine luffy with the same constant kaido/big mom level invulnerability. But if he activates his CoC cladding... Uff, vice admiral or YC level folk will just bounce of him.

Luffy finds ways to make situations difficult despite being powerful as fuck.
Gets his feet stuck in concrete against Arlong and thrown in the water and nearly killed.
Gets caught by Buggy on the Gallow (arguably the closest he's been to death before Kaido).
Nearly caught by Smoker.
Dude defeats Crocodile and gets eaten by a giant snake afterwards.
Dude defeats a lightning ability user who was God-like (okay, he was immune to his attacks but still) then has a ridiculous fight against Foxy.
Dude defeats Rob Lucci, then gets his shadow stolen while fucking around in suit of armor.
Dude defeats Moriah, then it's all downhill (for him, not the story) from there.
Hody Jones was weak, but Luffy somehow managed to make the fight difficult by allowing him to escape to the water.
He could low-diff Caesar Clown but still managed to get knocked unconscious by fucking around.

He will find a way to create a challenge in coming simple situations. As is tradition.

 

[Zehahaha]

I'm still curious about why Luffy was taking so many blows in G5. I guess his elasticity is such that even Kaido, who one shot him in Gear 4, cannot harm him. Going forward it seems like it'll take burning (Akainu), or internal damage (Blackbeard) to hurt Luffy. Oh, and advanced haki of course. Really wonder how his fight against Blackbeard will go since Blackbeard saps abilities, but as far as I can tell not strength.

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2022 ---

Well, it's rather easy to know why. He was still getting to learn about what he can do by using Gear 5. No surprise he was taking hits. Don't forget that Gear 5 seems to affect his personality to some extent as well.

 

[thedude]

Well, it's rather easy to know why. He was still getting to learn about what he can do by using Gear 5. No surprise he was taking hits. Don't forget that Gear 5 seems to affect his personality to some extent as well.

It was also for Oda to show the increased durability. Kaido was one shotting Luffy with those attacks, now Luffy just goofs off and is ready with another attack.

 

[XXGenesis]

I also still place Kaido above Luffy. As Kaido has fought the greatest gauntlet of One Piece .

Its weird how Luffy went G5 and mostly goofed around than fought with an upper hand. Kaido was still landing Thunder Bagua & other Dragon attacks much more than Luffy landed punches.

Don’t get it twisted Luffy is amongst the Yonkou.

Same way we watched 5 Roof Piece; Luffy would preform in the same manner as the Yonkou, he would get damaged, caught off guard a few times. But will have the stamina & firepower to take on all that damage & still win.

 

[albertwv]

Luffy is in the Yonko tier now, but to claim that he can defeat Kaido in a second round solo? That is still not happening. Just like claiming both Kid and Law could defeat BM together in a second round.
The defeats of both Yonko were severely handicapped. I think this is a way for Oda to redeem the title of Yonko and their invulnerability and protect their status. Oda threw a lot at Kaido in order for his defeat at the hands of Luffy to seem like it was logical. Going from getting one shotted at the beginning of Wano to being able to defeat Kaido, was a huge leap. How was it made possible, let's see..
Learning ACoA, fighting Kaido with 4 other Supernovas, learning ACoC, having aid from Yamato and recovering through a small rest and eating a lot of food, improving his ACoC, awakening his DF, and lastly plot armor.

You cannot ignore the gauntlet Kaido went through to be defeated. Has anyone ever gone through that many high level battles, besides maybe WB?
Let's compare WB and Kaido's last battles

WB at MF: Random VA Giant, VA John Giant, random elite marines, Aokiji, Akainu (possibly the strongest battle he faced in MF), heart attack (doesn't count but will include), Kizaru, random elite marines, Akainu again, and finally BB and level 6 Impel Down inmates. Total actual fights/battles/rounds: 4 (John Giant, Akainu, Akainu again, and BB with ID inmates)

Kaido: 9 Red Scabbards, Luffy and Supernova with Zolo scarring him, ACoC Luffy, Kin (in the verge of "dying"), Yamato, improved ACoC refreshed Luffy, and finally awakened G5 Luffy. Total actual fights/battles/rounds: 6 (9RS, 5 SNs, ACoC Luffy, Yamato, Improved ACoC Luffy, and G5 Luffy).

Kaido went through a lot more than Luffy and WB, even his defeat seems to be so underwhelming. Did I forget to mention he was carrying a whole freaking island throughout the whole fight?

 

[john ellis]

@catagon87 yes but he only used one named attack and named attacks is what counts, random punches are whatever