One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

@catagon87 yes but he only used one named attack and named attacks is what counts, random punches are whatever

Luffy was still coming up with the names, so I'd call this an exceptional case.

 

[Aki1991]

I love when people get into heated arguements about which fictional character is stronger. It's like in comic books "oh who would win" whoever the writer wants to win. Fucking Batman, a dude in a bat costume has beaten Superman multiple times, a literal God

 

[john ellis]

@Lobo he was but if you notice none of the named attacks hit, kaido had to dodge them all, while i don't think gomu gomu lightening would of done much damage to kaido to his elemental affinties it's possibly with enough haki it would of. g5 Luffy hit kaido with only 1 named attack though.

also i'm not saying g5 luffy one shots kaido entirely just that g5 luffy is so strong, that he's clealy above kaido. the fight of g5 vs kaido wasn't really close kaido was landing blow after blow and not doing much, where as luffy lands a single hit and the fight is over. Tbh this miriors there first fight where g4 luffy gets blow after blow and then kaido one shots him. Although once again g5 luffy doesn't 1 shot kaido he probably could 3 shot him though with the finishing move.

if you let g5 luffy rematch kaido it's clearly mid-high dif at most. He'll have more experience with g5 and better understanding of it. He'll be much more likely to connect hits and kaido will quickly lose trading blows.

like this is a near death g5 luffy who has barely any idea how his awakening works messing around taking extremely poweful kaido blows while nearly being near death and him shaking it off, honestly a full health g5 luffy would just win. This was near best case for kaido like sure he was probably down to 20-30%. Maybe at 100% he could win this fight, but kaido would never get oppunity like this again to fight such a weaken state of g5. Luffy should of been given the miracle drug, if the author wanted to saa kaido>g5 slightly. But no kaido had the advantage in this fight due to cp0 inteference. The damage kaido got off the cp0 is more then the red scabarbs and the supernova did to kaido previously sure you could argue they brought time for luffy to awaken. But in reality yes we agree kaido>pre g5 luffy. So it doesn't really matter at the start of g5 vs kaido luffy was more damaged. So yes kaido fought more people but those people simply don't matter as much as getting hit by an extremely poweful yonko attack due to cp0 interefernce

@albertwv also my statement above, kaido beating semi fodder doesn't matter as cp0 got luffy hit by a yonko attack, and getting hit by a yonko attack is bette help then being hit by 39393 fodder moves. kaido simply lost to a more damaged g5 luffy. thats it. Even if you want to argue kaido was near death. Kaido lost to a g5 luffy with similar damage. which is best case for kaido's arguement.

 

[kkck]

Here is how I view luffy vs kaido now:

1.- Kaido's main current advantage over luffy is basically his massive and overwhelming HP bar. His second main advantage is his massive haki volume. Making kaido run out of either is a daunting task.

Kaido has fought an absurd number of people. And it wasn't just mindless mobs, he fought people whose strength wouldn't go unnoticed by big shots everywhere.

First the 9 scabbards... all of them proved to be proficient haki users and as arcs continued their overall standing improved. Among them particularly outstanding are ashura, denjiro and kawamatsu.... Dog and cat with their transformation don't lag behind and of course izo is a world class fighter of renown. Kinemon, kiku and raizu are pretty competent as well.

Then the main group with the supernova... Luffy, zoro, law, kid and killer... Luffy started the fight capable of holding his own against a yonko and only increase his power dramatically from then. Zoro was on the threshold of yonko level in a way. His attacks with maximized haki output were definitely on the level with a yonko. Law, kidd an killer all were capable of damaging yonko and in fact did.

2.- On the luffy front we have to consider his significant growth during the fight. I would argue that one he got the hang of cladding he got to yonko level basically. He could trade blows with kaido equally, deal meaningful damage. What made him fall short is that he ultimately couldn't sustain the haki output required for this high level fight. I think gear 4 is in principle comparable to what zoro learned from using and ultimately mastering emma... The way to go in combat is to throw everything into the fight (minding tactics of course) and maximize your haki output. But luffy as we saw could only sustain gear 4 for a limited amount of time. And if he ran out his next go would last an even shorter amount of time.

Then we get to gear 5... Gear 5 is obviously an upgrade for luffy but I think what it does for him is a tad more complex than merely making him stronger. In that sense it's more than a next stage for gear 4.

Gear 4 so far appeared to work by luffy combining haki usage with his rubber resulting in inflated constantly hardened muscles that he had substantial freedom in manipulating. It goes beyond merely inflating his muscles, unlike gear 3 which merely inflated his bones. Gear 5 grants luffy a lot of things but for the purposes of this post what's relevant is that the way gear 5 drains luffy appears to be distinct from how gear 4 does. Gear 4 drains luffy's haki and physical stamina of course but it's fairly clear the haki drain is massive. The form apparently requires haki for merely staying in the form, let alone haki required when fighting. This is evident when luffy specifically requires time to recover his haki and once he does he is able to continue going. Gear 5 in turn expands luffy's rubber properties and his capability to manipulate them. Luffy can simply will his body to stretch in any direction imaginable and considering how he has taken some hits his elasticity is just as adjustable. And he can do that without haki. So with gear 5 luffy can do anything he could do in his previous gears without needing the mechanical help oxygen provided or increase his haki consumption. On the other hand it does appear gear 5 drains his physical stamina. So luffy frees up more haki which he would otherwise use to sustain gear 4 in exchange for using more physical stamina. In terms of damage output I think he is probably in the same ballpark as gear 4, except without overusing his haki.

 

[john ellis]

@kkck like i get they were not fodder, fodder but compared to fighting kaido they kinda are fodder. Like yes the person capable of beating that gaunlet is a harder fight then the gaunlet it's self. Anything prior to g5 luffy simply wasn't capable of beating kaido. SO the fight it's self before the awakening was somewhat meaningless kaido was winning, even if he started the fight at 70-50% he brought luffy down to about 1-5% while he had 5-30% remaining once awoken the 1-5% luffy defeated the 5-30% kaido. Which was a bigge handicap for luffy. Because yes fighting kaido is a bigger handicap then not fighting kaido. Yes luffy would of lost the fight if he didn't reach g5. But the part of the fight which matters is g5 luffy vs kaido. At which point the weaker state g5 luffy was able to defeat kaido.

 

[Qenjin]

Here is my 2 cents about Kaido and Luffy power level.

First of all to cut the weird speculation going here: Luffy > Kaido. There is no daubt about it, if it was the other way - Kaidou would win, he didn't.

Now if you take an argument that "Luffy lost 3 times prior to Kaidou defeat". Yes, but every defeat made him stronger (improved his haki and ultimately his DF). If we would match current Luffy with Kaidou, effect would be the same. Kaido didn't do any significant damage to g5 Luffy. He wasn't able to stop him even for a second, yet Luffy K.o. Kaido when he got serious. So lets end this debate. You can't Look at Luffy strength by past chapters, lets focus on current Luffy.

 

[catagon87]

@catagon87 yes but he only used one named attack and named attacks is what counts, random punches are whatever

Not true.

1.) Gomu Gomu Balloon - blew up Kaido from within. Chapter 1045.
2.) Gomu Gomu Escape Rocket - shot his fists up to Kaido's eyes, rubberizing / punching through them, grabbed his nose, and rocketed out
3.) Gomu Gomu no Jump Rope - grabbed and used Kaido like a jump rope

That's three not including his final attack, and the numerous other attacks he did.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Here is my 2 cents about Kaido and Luffy power level.

First of all to cut the weird speculation going here: Luffy > Kaido. There is no daubt about it, if it was the other way - Kaidou would win, he didn't.

Now if you take an argument that "Luffy lost 3 times prior to Kaidou defeat". Yes, but every defeat made him stronger (improved his haki and ultimately his DF). If we would match current Luffy with Kaidou, effect would be the same. Kaido didn't do any significant damage to g5 Luffy. He wasn't able to stop him even for a second, yet Luffy K.o. Kaido when he got serious. So lets end this debate. You can't Look at Luffy strength by past chapters, lets focus on current Luffy.

Luffy Is gonna be comatose lmao

also dog and cat are underrated , they’re a bit below ashura and roughly jack , but in suulong mode they’re stronger than either

 

[albertwv]

Here is my 2 cents about Kaido and Luffy power level.

First of all to cut the weird speculation going here: Luffy > Kaido. There is no daubt about it, if it was the other way - Kaidou would win, he didn't.

Now if you take an argument that "Luffy lost 3 times prior to Kaidou defeat". Yes, but every defeat made him stronger (improved his haki and ultimately his DF). If we would match current Luffy with Kaidou, effect would be the same. Kaido didn't do any significant damage to g5 Luffy. He wasn't able to stop him even for a second, yet Luffy K.o. Kaido when he got serious. So lets end this debate. You can't Look at Luffy strength by past chapters, lets focus on current Luffy.

@albertwv also my statement above, kaido beating semi fodder doesn't matter as cp0 got luffy hit by a yonko attack, and getting hit by a yonko attack is bette help then being hit by 39393 fodder moves. kaido simply lost to a more damaged g5 luffy. thats it. Even if you want to argue kaido was near death. Kaido lost to a g5 luffy with similar damage. which is best case for kaido's arguement.

You are claiming that Kaido defeated G4 Luffy thanks to CP0? LOL Yet are dismissing the 9RS, 5SN, and Yamato on wearing down Kaido. If CP0 would have not intervened, Kaido would have most likely knocked Luffy down still.

People like to ignore the fact that Kaido was worn down by the time he fought G5. If Oda really wanted to portrayed Luffy > Kaido, then he would have let them do a 1v1, with no prior engagements. No 5SNs, No Yamato, No 9RS, and NO break. This obviously shows that a fresh Kaido vs a fresh Luffy would have a different outcome, which it did 2 times (Kaido defeating Luffy twice).

A point in history: during both World Wars, USA likes to credit themselves the victor over Germany and its Allies. But what they like to often ignore is that, Germany at that time of the war were exhausted, limited supplies etc for nonstop fighting all over the country, and that the USA entered later in the war and that it had helped from allies (British, Russians, French, etc). After the USA entered the war with fresh recruits, supplies, weapons, and millions of soldiers, Germany still managed to hold them off for a long time, it was a tug of war at some points in the war. Eventually, the USA and its allies managed to defeat Germany. Look at the basis of the Germany Army defeat: it had a lot of new terrain to defend from all sides, its soldiers were worn down from all the fighting, their supplies were running short, and they were outnumbered. Were German soldiers weaker than the American soldiers? Hell no. They were about equal, but overextending.
It is ignorant for Americans to solely claim the victory of World War 2 in Europe.

One more point, let's take a look at boxing in a ring match. Say Mike Tyson vs a bunch of mid level boxers, one for each 12 rounds. Mike could probably run through the first few easy, but after maybe the 6th he will get tired, by the 10th it would be more noticeable that he is tired and probably on a defensive stance. Now the last boxer who is fresh and ready to go, while Mike has been fighting nonstop back to back with no rests, they fight and the 12th boxer wins the match by defeating Mike.
Will the 12th boxer claim the championship solely and that he is now stronger than Mike Tyson? That in a 1v1 he can defeat Mike alone? Would people believe him? Do YOU think he is stronger than Mike Tyson?

This is exactly what happened with Luffy + Company vs Kaido.

 

[kkck]

Luffy was on his last breath before gear 5 kicked in and kaido knocked him out. But... kaido could still continue to take hits. We saw kaido take multiple big hits from gear 5 luffy... luffy was going for one final gear 4 punch against kaido but odds are that hit probably wouldn't have been enough. Heck, there's a case to be made that CP0's intervention saved luffy's life. Kaido found the intervention unsavory to begin with, without that intervention there's a good chance kaido could have been more thorough.

 

[funkyfrog]

So where should we rank the CP0 agents we saw in this arc?
I don't like how Oda did them dirty. Like how Maha was taken out by Izo at the same time, and the fight was obviously off-paneled. Just like how Drake and the other CP0 agent's fight was off-paneled only to reveal the CP0 agent won, kinda.

They were able to manage to defeat Izo and Drake, and scare away Apoo. So they are at least Flying 6 or Yonko Executive level, below YC or at best YC3/4.

Oda did bad on introducing them in Onigashima only for them to fall so quickly. All that hype for nothing. Now I can only expect for Lucci and Kaku to be stronger if not CP0 will be seriously a disappointment. I was hoping that the Masked Man that interfered with Luffy vs Kaido, would be their leader and the strongest among the CP0s. But now it seems Lucci may be stronger.

i agree, i too hate how easliy this hyped up top agents have been taken out. no fruit powers or haki abilities have been shown. as if that cp0 "boss" would not have been able to evade kaidos killing blow. what a waste of plot potential there. eichiro is rushing way to much through this final part of the wano arc, having bored us with bs arcs like fishmann island and most of the wholecake island arc for years. like you said, doffy was the greatest vilian in anime history with such an interesting personality, phenomenal laughter and a great range of attacks. the fight against doffy was also top notch, but id put the katakuri fight a tip above it. the kaido fight on the other hand seems lackluster and rather boring. two brawlers with a very limited variety of attacks going at it. i mean, kaido is just a brute with a stick and a bit of fire spit. also, if the fight is really over, luffys final attack should atleast have been infused with some fire or flames to honour his SUN god awakening. but no, just a bigger black fist with more haki sparks. come on now eichiro, you can do better. i know youre running out of time, but atleast let this overhyped arc go out with a more creative bang!

 

[john ellis]

@albertwv no i'm no claiming the cp0 invertion won g4 luffy the fight, just that it doesn't matter. g4 luffy wasn't beating kaido i agree with you on that, but kaido starting the fight at 50-70% doesn't matter sure he thought people before luffy. Cool that doesn't impact the fight though. Kaido wins the fight of g4 luffy vs kaido. Now g5 luffy vs kaido started with luffy in worse shape then kaido. He was nearly dead Sure kaido started the fight vs g4 luffy in worse shape but that fight was over kaido won, but g5 luffy in near death state beat a worn down but functional kaido. G5 in worse condition beat kaido.

@albertwv to put it simply yes kaido was at 70% of the time he fought g4 luffy a fight he won. Yes even at 70% g4 luffy cannot defeat kaido. Yes. But kaido could not defeat a worse condition g5 luffy. If odo wanted to portay kaido as stronger thn g5 luffy he should of given luffy the miracle drug. But he did not. Kaido could not defeat a g5 luffy who had engaged against 2 yonko prior to his awakening and in a weake state, hence g5 luffy>kaido

a fresh kaido would not stand a chance vs a fresh g5 luffy is simple logical, as kaido could not defeat a g5 luffy in a worse state then he was in.

@catagon87 i mean those were named attacks but they were probably less effective then random punches besides escape rocket, they're just kinda comedic attacks right? how does spinning kaido in air as a skipping rope sound that painful for a yonko?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I'm still curious about why Luffy was taking so many blows in G5. I guess his elasticity is such that even Kaido, who one shot him in Gear 4, cannot harm him. Going forward it seems like it'll take burning (Akainu), or internal damage (Blackbeard) to hurt Luffy. Oh, and advanced haki of course. Really wonder how his fight against Blackbeard will go since Blackbeard saps abilities, but as far as I can tell not strength.

I actually think G5 transformation has a behavioral effect on Luffy that makes him a bit cocky. The way he talked about how he felt in G5 sounded like a high to me. What's not clear to me is if he will over time get past that and fight more seriously e.g. dodge attacks vs just tanking them.

Also now that we know the Gomu Gomu is a Zoan its also an open question if Luffy's dream about being free, his motivations, etc are a result of the fruit vs actually him. We learned in the past that carnivore Zoan fruits make their users more blood thirsty so maybe the Nika Fruit makes the user more like Nika, a free spirited rebel. Kind of sucks to think that may be the case but things are pointing that way.

As far as the Blackbeard power absorption issue, it is definitely interesting. Does Blackbeard need to make skin on skin contact for this ability to work? If so couldn't any advanced fighter like Luffy just use aCoA to create a small barrier around the part Blackbeard is trying to grab to block it. This combined with future sight should make Luffy generally immune to this ability but we'll have to wait and see the limits of Blackbeard's absorption powers.

 

[catagon87]

@catagon87 i mean those were named attacks but they were probably less effective then random punches besides escape rocket, they're just kinda comedic attacks right? how does spinning kaido in air as a skipping rope sound that painful for a yonko?

Dunno. I personally wouldn't want to be used as a jump rope and I imagine most snakes would be displeased with that as well. Being ballooned from the inside would suck, too. Maybe it's not a King Kong Gun type attack but it definitely had purpose.

--- Double Post Merged, May 20, 2022, Original Post Date: May 20, 2022 ---

I actually think G5 transformation has a behavioral effect on Luffy that makes him a bit cocky. The way he talked about how he felt in G5 sounded like a high to me. What's not clear to me is if he will over time get past that and fight more seriously e.g. dodge attacks vs just tanking them.

Also now that we know the Gomu Gomu is a Zoan its also an open question if Luffy's dream about being free, his motivations, etc are a result of the fruit vs actually him. We learned in the past that carnivore Zoan fruits make their users more blood thirsty so maybe the Nika Fruit makes the user more like Nika, a free spirited rebel. Kind of sucks to think that may be the case but things are pointing that way.

As far as the Blackbeard power absorption issue, it is definitely interesting. Does Blackbeard need to make skin on skin contact for this ability to work? If so couldn't any advanced fighter like Luffy just use aCoA to create a small barrier around the part Blackbeard is trying to grab to block it. This combined with future sight should make Luffy generally immune to this ability but we'll have to wait and see the limits of Blackbeard's absorption powers.

Gear 5 Luffy reminds me of Arlong fight Luffy. He was "serious" but perceived to be playing around the whole time by everyone else. Lol. As for Blackbeard, who knows. That fight will probably be saved for the last major fight in the series. Only other maybe I could see happening that late is Akainu. Assuming Im isn't some fighter they need to overcome (god I hope not).

 

[LadyVados]

The question is if Luffy loses to some random fodder next arc will we powerscale that fodder at Yonko level ?

 

[john ellis]

Dunno. I personally wouldn't want to be used as a jump rope and I imagine most snakes would be displeased with that as well. Being ballooned from the inside would suck, too. Maybe it's not a King Kong Gun type attack but it definitely had purpose.

--- Double Post Merged, May 20, 2022, Original Post Date: May 20, 2022 ---

Gear 5 Luffy reminds me of Arlong fight Luffy. He was "serious" but perceived to be playing around the whole time by everyone else. Lol. As for Blackbeard, who knows. That fight will probably be saved for the last major fight in the series. Only other maybe I could see happening that late is Akainu. Assuming Im isn't some fighter they need to overcome (god I hope not).

yes I’m sure it’s displeasement to a normal human but where talking a yonko here, they can take missles to the face without taking dakagev

 

[Core D. Roy]

I'm still curious about why Luffy was taking so many blows in G5. I guess his elasticity is such that even Kaido, who one shot him in Gear 4, cannot harm him. Going forward it seems like it'll take burning (Akainu), or internal damage (Blackbeard) to hurt Luffy. Oh, and advanced haki of course. Really wonder how his fight against Blackbeard will go since Blackbeard saps abilities, but as far as I can tell not strength.

If darkness awakening works how we presume other logia awakening work, his ability to cancel DF abilities may affect a WHOLE lot more than just whatever he touches. If that's the case, Kaidou's words about haki being the most important thing will definitely ring true if Luffy simply can't use the nika fruit awakening for a good chunk of their fight.

 

[Nie Li]

The question is if Luffy loses to some random fodder next arc will we powerscale that fodder at Yonko level ?

Yes.

 

[LaGOAT]

Easiest example we can use is replace luffy with kaido in this situation. Can luffy pull off the Gauntlet like kaido just did? Answer is simply no

 

[Zehahaha]

Easiest example we can use is replace luffy with kaido in this situation. Can luffy pull off the Gauntlet like kaido just did? Answer is simply no

Gear 5 Luffy ? Why wouldn't he be able to do it ? I do see Luffy mopping the floor with Kid, Killer, Law and Zoro. Unclear whether Luffy has been using FS while he is using Gear 5, but if not, then that's even one more area of improvement.