One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

When you put it that way, kinda true.
But still, you have to look at it from a numbers perspective as well. Samurai's were concentrated in that area.

That virus takes out 50% of the alliance, while maybe 10% of the BP.

Can King and Queen take out the fodder Samurai? Yeah. But not when there are other strong characters to keep them busy. Marco alone kept them busy for hours.

Yeah, but Marco arrived a lot later. Zoro pre-CoC and Sanji pre-Improvements were fodder to them and so were Drake and Chopper.

The percentages are true. The hit would have been a lot bigger for the alliance than for the BP. That's a fact, mostly because BP's were a lot more in number and distributed throughout Onigashima. But just imagine Queen resorting to this in every battle to stay useful... the BP's would take 10% hits every battle they participate in and thus be weaker for the next one. I like Queen, but that course of action isn't a good one imo.

 

[Pirate Queen]

This conversation certainly isn't about power level: power level doesn't encompass giving orders.

For discussion's sake, let's say that you're not the one biased. Explain to me how I'm wrong and tell me: when did Queen turn the tide of battle in favor of his army?

He changed the tide of the battle when he used the virus... by sacrificing a good chunk of his own army to take down a good chunk of a weaker army of enemies. Not a good move.

He changed the tide of the battle when he confronted Drake... who he failed to take down and was forced to openly join Luffy's side because of Queen (and of Who's Who, who shares the blame here). That move didn't turn out well either.


The way I see it, he was as much a help as he was a liability. Changing the tide of battle isn't necessarily a thing to praise.

"A good chunck" of his own army? They still had a massive advantage by the end of the raid

Please. He got rid of fodder. The Alliance was far and away more effected by the Virus. The BP were negligibly affected

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 2, 2022 ---

Beat strong enemy in another league that only him who can do that task is really a big feats. It's like if no one can't beat that guy all of your plan will be messed up.

It's what happen to kaido & luffy case, different from zoro sanji & king queen.

Remove kaido, then no one can beat oden, beast pirates can't even rule wano from the start.

Remove luffy, althought they're already win all of another battle, kaido will kill all of them then they still lose. Just like zoro said when luffy handle lucci.

But zoro, sanji, king, queen is different. They only simply handle strong enemy but not at different league, not like it's only them who can did that task.

It's great feats, but you can't compare it to kaido/luffy.

For example, remove zoro/sanji, yamato still can handle king/queen. But if you remove luffy, they're death meat.
Remove king, queen still can handle akazaya. Remove queen, king still can handle akazaya. Remove kaido, no chance they win againts oden & take over wano.

Yamato and Jinbei could have defeat King and Queen just as easily as Zoro and Sanji did. Probably the same difficulty

 

[Nie Li]

Beat strong enemy in another league that only him who can do that task is really a big feats. It's like if no one can't beat that guy all of your plan will be messed up.

It's what happen to kaido & luffy case, different from zoro sanji & king queen.

Remove kaido, then no one can beat oden, beast pirates can't even rule wano from the start.

Remove luffy, althought they're already win all of another battle, kaido will kill all of them then they still lose. Just like zoro said when luffy handle lucci.

But zoro, sanji, king, queen is different. They only simply handle strong enemy but not at different league, not like it's only them who can did that task.

It's great feats, but you can't compare it to kaido/luffy.

For example, remove zoro/sanji, yamato still can handle king/queen. But if you remove luffy, they're death meat.
Remove king, queen still can handle akazaya. Remove queen, king still can handle akazaya. Remove kaido, no chance they win againts oden & take over wano.

You make it about being useful and then you revert back to making it about power levels. Could Yamato defeat King? Most likely. But Onigashima would have exploded.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 2, 2022 ---

"A good chunck" of his own army? They still had a massive advantage by the end of the raid

Please. He got rid of fodder. The Alliance was far and away more effected by the Virus. The BP were negligibly affected

His subordinates were also saved by Chopper.

So that's what we see different: You think it's useful to kill 10% (aprox, continuing with the %s discussed in previous posts) of your subordinates to kill 50% of the enemy forces, when you could win the battle with many less casualities (although after a lenghtier fight).

That's useful to save time but not for the future if that's what Queen plays at every time there's a battle (do remember that in this case, the battle was against people he didn't even consider were worth mentioning, Luffy included).

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think one thing about Queen that is overhyped is the Ice Oni/Plague virus. His bioweapons are not useful in a battles like the Raid since everyone, allies and enemies, are all in the same location and vulnerable to the virus. If Chopper hadn't cured the virus it would have spread throughout Onigashima similar to the fire and probably ended up killing everyone indiscriminately.

Bioweapons are only useful in battle if you can control them. Look at how Jack used the poison gas in Zou. That was effective since it hurt the enemy without forcing him to lose troops. The Ice Oni & Plague viruses once let loose would end up hurting both sides equally (as a % of total troops) and would have hurt the Beast Pirates more (in raw number of soldiers lost).

 

[Pirate Queen]

You make it about being useful and then you revert back to making it about power levels. Could Yamato defeat King? Most likely. But Onigashima would have exploded.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 2, 2022 ---

His subordinates were also saved by Chopper.

So that's what we see different: You think it's useful to kill 10% (aprox, continuing with the %s discussed in previous posts) of your subordinates to kill 50% of the enemy forces, when you could win the battle with many less casualities (although after a lenghtier fight).

That's useful to save time but not for the future if that's what Queen plays at every time there's a battle (do remember that in this case, the battle was against people he didn't even consider were worth mentioning, Luffy included).

Yes, I'm sorry but news flash war isn't pretty. Sometimes good soldiers get sacrificed for the victory. What Queen did was an overall net positive for the Beast Pirates. If your made Queen hurt is own troops is your fault for not realizing Queen is a Villian and isn't supposed to be liked. He is supposed to be despised.

It's clear you don't understand such a basic truth.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2022 ---

I think one thing about Queen that is overhyped is the Ice Oni/Plague virus. His bioweapons are not useful in a battles like the Raid since everyone, allies and enemies, are all in the same location and vulnerable to the virus. If Chopper hadn't cured the virus it would have spread throughout Onigashima similar to the fire and probably ended up killing everyone indiscriminately.

Bioweapons are only useful in battle if you can control them. Look at how Jack used the poison gas in Zou. That was effective since it hurt the enemy without forcing him to lose troops. The Ice Oni & Plague viruses once let loose would end up hurting both sides equally (as a % of total troops) and would have hurt the Beast Pirates more (in raw number of soldiers lost).

It works when one side is vastly larger than the other, which was the case here. One side imhad fodder to spare

 

[Nie Li]

I think one thing about Queen that is overhyped is the Ice Oni/Plague virus. His bioweapons are not useful in a battles like the Raid since everyone, allies and enemies, are all in the same location and vulnerable to the virus. If Chopper hadn't cured the virus it would have spread throughout Onigashima similar to the fire and probably ended up killing everyone indiscriminately.

Bioweapons are only useful in battle if you can control them. Look at how Jack used the poison gas in Zou. That was effective since it hurt the enemy without forcing him to lose troops. The Ice Oni & Plague viruses once let loose would end up hurting both sides equally (as a % of total troops) and would have hurt the Beast Pirates more (in raw number of soldiers lost).

Indeed. Even if the virus didn't get out, it wasn't a smart move to release a virus and take down your own forces indiscriminatelly just because some fodder samurais and pirates are invading your territory full of overpowered monsters. Just massacre them with any other weapon, technological or otherwise, that you can actually control. It's damaging both to numbers and to morale to have the YC2 doing that.

It gets worse with what you said: the common sense of using uncontrollable biological warfare in your own headquarters. Luckily the plot kept anyone from climbing out of the plaza or from damaging the doors (accidentally or to run away) that not even a prehistoric zoan like Drake nor any of the victims of the oni virus with enhanced superstrength on top of their already high natural strength.

Yes, I'm sorry but news flash war isn't pretty. Sometimes good soldiers get sacrificed for the victory. What Queen did was an overall net positive for the Beast Pirates. If your made Queen hurt is own troops is your fault for not realizing Queen is a Villian and isn't supposed to be liked. He is supposed to be despised.

It's clear you don't understand such a basic truth.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2022 ---

It works when one side is vastly larger than the other, which was the case here. One side imhad fodder to spare

This isn't about war being pretty. lol Not even about Queen being likeable or not. This is about Queen's strategies being smart or not: they aren't.

 

[thedude]

Indeed. Even if the virus didn't get out, it wasn't a smart move to release a virus and take down your own forces indiscriminatelly just because some fodder samurais and pirates are invading your territory full of overpowered monsters. Just massacre them with any other weapon, technological or otherwise, that you can actually control. It's damaging both to numbers and to morale to have the YC2 doing that.

It gets worse with what you said: the common sense of using uncontrollable biological warfare in your own headquarters. Luckily the plot kept anyone from climbing out of the plaza or from damaging the doors (accidentally or to run away) that not even a prehistoric zoan like Drake nor any of the victims of the oni virus with enhanced superstrength on top of their already high natural strength.


This isn't about war being pretty. lol Not even about Queen being likeable or not. This is about Queen's strategies being smart or not: they aren't.

Queens strategy was smart. The likelihood of a doctor being available who could neutralize the virus he created was incredibly slim. Using his teams fodder, the soldiers deemed to be expendable to quickly spread the virus and end the war quickly is a great strategy. It's only the existence of Chopper, who has the ability to quickly take an antidote and turn it into his own counter virus that makes it "dumb".

He said it clearly - the Pleasures are failed Gifters who aren't of much value, and the Waiters will never get a smile since the factory was destroyed, so they aren't needed. Using them as a way to destroy the enemy with a contagious virus is a harsh, but smart move.

 

[Pirate Queen]

This is about Queen's strategies being smart or not: they aren't.

The fact that the Beast Pirates still had an numbers advantage and were not effected in the slightest while the Alliance was nearly losing the Performance Floor tells us it was a net positive and a smart move

 

[Nie Li]

Queens strategy was smart. The likelihood of a doctor being available who could neutralize the virus he created was incredibly slim. Using his teams fodder, the soldiers deemed to be expendable to quickly spread the virus and end the war quickly is a great strategy. It's only the existence of Chopper, who has the ability to quickly take an antidote and turn it into his own counter virus that makes it "dumb".

I've addressed this before: had his plan succeeded if Chopper wasn't there, Queen's plan would still be dumb. What Chopper did was make a dumb plan fail harder.


Let me put it this way. In Queen's eyes, this was an entertaining but unimportant battle. They were being invaded by fodders, and said fodders top tiers were going to kill themselves by challenging Kaido and Big Mom directly.

So let's put it into perspective: if Queen hadn't proceeded, what would have happened?

The Beast Pirates were absolutely stronger than the samurai. Just close off the plaza like he did, and after a while his side would have won with moderate casualties a battle against fodder samurais.

What did Queen's plan hope to achieve? To win faster (what for? Where they in a hurry? Not really, that's why he even made a game out of it). At what cost? At losing every single of their own fodders instead of just some of them. And potentially infecting and killing every single one of his crewmembers had the virus (easily) gotten out of the plaza. Plot luck saved him from that, but he did take the risk for no good gain.

Is that smart? Not in my book.

The fact that the Beast Pirates still had an numbers advantage and were not effected in the slightest while the Alliance was nearly losing the Performance Floor tells us it was a net positive and a smart move

You're just jumping to that conclusion. What data indicates the outcome would have been any different had they fought without Queen using the virus?

Anyway, Chopper prevented him from causing considerable casualities to the BPs just as much as to the samurai. Take taht into account.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Queens strategy was smart. The likelihood of a doctor being available who could neutralize the virus he created was incredibly slim. Using his teams fodder, the soldiers deemed to be expendable to quickly spread the virus and end the war quickly is a great strategy. It's only the existence of Chopper, who has the ability to quickly take an antidote and turn it into his own counter virus that makes it "dumb".

He said it clearly - the Pleasures are failed Gifters who aren't of much value, and the Waiters will never get a smile since the factory was destroyed, so they aren't needed. Using them as a way to destroy the enemy with a contagious virus is a harsh, but smart move.

It almost seems the the counter argument is that "Queen didn't play fair so it wasn't a good move."

 

[Nie Li]

It almost seems the the counter argument is that "Queen didn't play fair so it wasn't a good move."

That's nothing similar to what I've been arguing but okay.

 

[XXGenesis]

This conversation certainly isn't about power level: power level doesn't encompass giving orders.

For discussion's sake, let's say that you're not the one biased. Explain to me how I'm wrong and tell me: when did Queen turn the tide of battle in favor of his army?

He changed the tide of the battle when he used the virus... by sacrificing a good chunk of his own army to take down a good chunk of a weaker army of enemies. Not a good move.

He changed the tide of the battle when he confronted Drake... who he failed to take down and was forced to openly join Luffy's side because of Queen (and of Who's Who, who shares the blame here). That move didn't turn out well either.


The way I see it, he was as much a help as he was a liability. Changing the tide of battle isn't necessarily a thing to praise.

Commanders sacrafice their soldiers to kill the other enemy soldiers….That’s War…..Queen Sacrafices the BP fodder to infect and defeat the samurai….Good Plan..He’s cruel, heartless and has fodder to spare

If XDrake was a Spy; He would have switched sides at a more advantageous time. spies should be rooted out and dealt with….

His plans with the Virus was thwarted by Chopper…Slowed down by Marco; If not for them, Queen wins in a major way.

XDrake managed to escape from Queen & Who’s Who…Keeping him as a spy would result in a greater betrayal than just the info he’s been siphoning. Queen made the right move, and since XDrake was on the live floor, suspected he would fall from the virus too.

I’ve been reading the post…Your Entitled to your opinion Lobo, but your incorrect

 

[grey matter]

I think one thing about Queen that is overhyped is the Ice Oni/Plague virus. His bioweapons are not useful in a battles like the Raid since everyone, allies and enemies, are all in the same location and vulnerable to the virus. If Chopper hadn't cured the virus it would have spread throughout Onigashima similar to the fire and probably ended up killing everyone indiscriminately.

Bioweapons are only useful in battle if you can control them. Look at how Jack used the poison gas in Zou. That was effective since it hurt the enemy without forcing him to lose troops. The Ice Oni & Plague viruses once let loose would end up hurting both sides equally (as a % of total troops) and would have hurt the Beast Pirates more (in raw number of soldiers lost).

That's true, but IIRC the plan was to just have the virus contained in the entire floor.

The Ice demons only have a few hours lifespan, after which they run out of gas and die. So, as long as they are contained in the same floor, the virus won't spread further.

 

[Nie Li]

Commanders sacrafice their soldiers to kill the other enemy soldiers….That’s War…..Queen Sacrafices the BP fodder to infect and defeat the samurai….Good Plan..He’s cruel, heartless and has fodder to spare

If XDrake was a Spy; He would have switched sides at a more advantageous time. spies should be rooted out and dealt with….

His plans with the Virus was thwarted by Chopper…Slowed down by Marco; If not for them, Queen wins in a major way.

XDrake managed to escape from Queen & Who’s Who…Keeping him as a spy would result in a greater betrayal than just the info he’s been siphoning. Queen made the right move, and since XDrake was on the live floor, suspected he would fall from the virus too.

I’ve been reading the post…Your Entitled to your opinion Lobo, but your incorrect

You're equally entitled to being incorrect.

You say you've been reading but it doesn't really sound like you've been paying attention to my points.

1- Some of you seem to believe that I'm criticising Queen solely for making sacrifices. Not at all. I've consistently pondered whether or not these sacrifices were worth it. Contrary to (apparently) popular believe, not all sacrifices are worth it.

In this particular case, you have to consider whether the results would have been much better, just better, worse, or much worse had he not "sacrificed his fodders", and also. Exactly what was he putting at risk with his plan is a major factor. Not just how it turned out: the risks are part of the plan, and he had no contingencies.

3- I've already addressed twice how Chopper and Marco's intervention doesn't affect at all my point. Had they not intervened, Queen was risking the whole Beasts Pirates crew by unleashing a deadly virus he had no control over and that could easily leave the plaza.

3- Was it the best timing to deal with Drake? You could be right on that point, but he certainly should have played his cards better. The Drake thing is an entirely different discussion.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 2, 2022 ---

That's true, but IIRC the plan was to just have the virus contained in the entire floor.

The Ice demons only have a few hours lifespan, after which they run out of gas and die. So, as long as they are contained in the same floor, the virus won't spread further.

What measures did Queen have in place to avoid it spreading? Doors? In a floor that had Drake and Zoro fighting?

 

[Pirate Queen]

That's nothing similar to what I've been arguing but okay.

You are intentionally missing points for the sake of disagreeing with me because you think I am attacking King, which in turn is SOMEHOW attacking Zoro. I know you well enough to know if zoro was not attached to this you would be siding with me.

You are just flat out wrong here. But I think I'm going to just drop it here. Please respond once more but this just isn't going anywhere at this point unless you can bring up a new point important enough for me to address.

 

[Nie Li]

You are intentionally missing points for the sake of disagreeing with me because you think I am attacking King, which in turn is SOMEHOW attacking Zoro. I know you well enough to know if zoro was not attached to this you would be siding with me.

You are just flat out wrong here. But I think I'm going to just drop it here. Please respond once more but this just isn't going anywhere at this point unless you can bring up a new point important enough for me to address.

The gall! I have addressed every one of your points while you have ignored all of mine and jumped to put words in my mouth as if I was against Queen doing evil stuff.

You don't know me at all if that's what you think. Zoro was only mentioned because I get that exact vibe from you, not because I'm making it about Zoro, and never again was he mentioned in any point. Yet again a strawman.

 

[grey matter]

The Beast Pirates were absolutely stronger than the samurai. Just close off the plaza like he did, and after a while his side would have won with moderate casualties a battle against fodder samurais.

Overall, yes. BP > alliance

But individual samurai fodders are much stronger than BP fodders.
This is why the samurai kept holding their own inspite of massive numerical disadvantage.

If Queen can prevent it from spreading, taking down 50% of the samurai force is a worthy tradeoff against 10% of weaker BP

What measures did Queen have in place to avoid it spreading? Doors? In a floor that had Drake and Zoro fighting?

Actually yeah, that is indeed a risk.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 2, 2022 ---

There is a panel last chapter that has a Beast Pirate on the Performance Floor revealed they still had a significant numbers advantage over the Alliance. Just fodder, but this Raid has been a numbers game from the beginning. Just an observation

Yeah, in absolute terms.

But BP had like 30K, while alliance had 5K. So, percentage vise it's different. Say 2.5K samurai fodder were there, and 3K BP fodder. 3K BP fodder have numerical advantage, but that's still 10% of entirely of BP

Edit: I noticed you were referring to something else lol

 

[DeadlyBeast]

It works when one side is vastly larger than the other, which was the case here. One side imhad fodder to spare

Yes this is one of my points. It is beneficial for a smaller force to use it against a larger force since in raw numbers the larger force will lose more soldiers. This is why I think it didn't make sense for Queen to use it during the Raid since the Beast pirates had the larger force.

In the Live Floor specifically there were more samurai and Queens intent was to sacrifice his smaller force of soldiers to take out the larger group. My problem with this is there was no realistic way to contain the virus to the live floor. If left unchecked it would have spread throughout the entire island.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 2, 2022 ---

Indeed. Even if the virus didn't get out, it wasn't a smart move to release a virus and take down your own forces indiscriminatelly just because some fodder samurais and pirates are invading your territory full of overpowered monsters. Just massacre them with any other weapon, technological or otherwise, that you can actually control. It's damaging both to numbers and to morale to have the YC2 doing that.

It gets worse with what you said: the common sense of using uncontrollable biological warfare in your own headquarters. Luckily the plot kept anyone from climbing out of the plaza or from damaging the doors (accidentally or to run away) that not even a prehistoric zoan like Drake nor any of the victims of the oni virus with enhanced superstrength on top of their already high natural strength.

Yes totally agree that from morale and leadership point of view this was a terrible move. We saw the results with Queens own troops betraying him. To me this was the real life equivalent of military leaders that take their infantry for granted and end up with high levels of desertion or worse, a military coup from mid level management.

in the case of the raid it was completely just plot that prevented the more realistic scenario, Ice Oni running amok everywhere in Onigashima. At the rate it spread some of the infected would have left the Live Floor through many of the holes that had opened up during the fighting.

 

[Nie Li]

Overall, yes. BP > alliance

But individual samurai fodders are much stronger than BP fodders.
This is why the samurai kept holding their own inspite of massive numerical disadvantage.

If Queen can prevent it from spreading, taking down 50% of the samurai force is a worthy tradeoff against 10% of weaker BP

This is the best point in favor of that side of the argument and you're the first to actually bring it up (at least in a quote to my posts).

It still doesn't outweight the risks of the strategy but it's regardless a good point.

However, there's another thing to take into account: How many of each side were on the floor? Let's say 100 to 400 ratio? Let's look at the eficienciy/practicality of the plan, not the morality.

The 100s may be a bit tougher but they're still fodders outnumbered. They had no chance of winning. So then, what did he had to gain with his plan that he would not have otherwise? For the strategy to be good, the benefits must outweight the benefits of innaction.

Victory was assured, and maintining surviving fodders is important. Precisely because numbers have been proven to be important this battle and strong foot soldiers don't grow on trees. If you sacrifice thousands of foot soldiers on every battle, then your army will continue to needlessly weaken and is bound to lose when you face an enemy army like Blackbeard's or the Marines.

Keep in mind that this kind of strategy could be good in a battle for the One Piece or for the title of Yonkou, but this was not such battle for Queen. He probably thought he could take Luffy, Zoro and Sanji down himself, so much less did he consider the Beasts Pirates could lose this, yet he chose the heavy sacrifice route that only gave him the benefit of "winning faster".

Add to that the risk of the virus running out of control throughout all of Onigashima, and there's no way I can consider it a smart plan.



Anyone is free to disagree, but man, all these strawman arguments as if I was "crying" about the war being ugly or about people being sacrificed or dying in a war... I'm a Kanki fan and a Skaven main, for ***s sake. Right now I'm just disagreeing with Queen's strategy being good. Nothing to do with liking Queen, King, Zoro, war or rainbows.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Queens strategy was smart. The likelihood of a doctor being available who could neutralize the virus he created was incredibly slim. Using his teams fodder, the soldiers deemed to be expendable to quickly spread the virus and end the war quickly is a great strategy. It's only the existence of Chopper, who has the ability to quickly take an antidote and turn it into his own counter virus that makes it "dumb".

He said it clearly - the Pleasures are failed Gifters who aren't of much value, and the Waiters will never get a smile since the factory was destroyed, so they aren't needed. Using them as a way to destroy the enemy with a contagious virus is a harsh, but smart move.

This issue with this strategy is the fact that there was no way for Queen to limit the infected to just the Pleasures. The Ice Oni would have gone and infected Gifters and Pleasures throughout Onigashima along with the Samurai. Heck even mid level fighters like Tobi Roppo could have easily been infected too. And the longer the Ice Oni stayed around the higher the chances that even the strongest of fighters would have been infected. We saw that even the Plague physically affects people as strong as Luffy.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 2, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 2, 2022 ---

That's true, but IIRC the plan was to just have the virus contained in the entire floor.

The Ice demons only have a few hours lifespan, after which they run out of gas and die. So, as long as they are contained in the same floor, the virus won't spread further.

Yes this was Queen's plan. I just don't think it made any sense since there was no way of physically keeping the Ice Oni on the live floor, which was my problem with it all.