One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

Claiming Big Mom has combat speed equal to Kaido's is like claiming Buggy = Mihawk since Mihawk could not cut him. LOL.
Kata and King vs BM. I think they would be able to damage and maybe slowly defeat her, if they had one thing at their disposal: PLOT.
They would give her a high diff battle though for sure and ultimately lose.
Remember, Law and Kid won through serious of lucky events. Plot being the biggest. They kept getting smacked down claiming it was their "last attack" over and over again. Then it was Law's DF that seriously scared BM, because it wasn't physical but inner damage. Also, the bombs finalized her defeat, NOT Law or Kid.

I think if it was Law and Kid vs King and Kata with no outside influence. Kata and King would win high diff.

People keep talking about the bombs. The bombs had nothing to do with Big Mom's defeat other than keeping her from grabbing onto something as she fell. Law created a volcano and dropped Big Mom into it with Kid's help.

 

[M3J]

Base Kaido blitz and one shot post WCI Luffy, whose stats scale to Katakuri.

Now, this could just be Oda being inconsistent, and he shouldn't have been one shot. Regardless, the idea that Oda wanted to portray is pretty clear, he wanted to demonstrate that beginning of Wano Luffy was FAAAR weaker than Kaido.

Nothing suggests that Katakuri will do pretty much anything to Kaido. His attack power will do zero damage to Kaido. His durability scales to Luffy who got one shot, make of that what you will.

While current Kid and Law are at a level where they can somewhat match a Yonko. Kid was somewhat relative to BM in combat stats . Law shrugged off a thunder bagua from Hybrid Kaido.
The portrayal here is that, while Kid and Law are not Yonko level yet, they are getting there!

But also, Katakuri was still likely superior to pre-ACoC Luffy, even if by tiny bit after Future Sight. He might have fared better, especially since he'd have been calm as opposed to Luffy being scared and pissed off because Kaidou attacked his friends.

Other than that, I think we agree on Katakuri vs. Kaidou, no chance in hell as far as he's been portrayed. We do know he's durable enough though, he technically didn't lose to Luffy in terms of combat superiority, he chose to lose to Luffy out of respect.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

The implication with big mom was that she was every bit as durable as kaido. Both of their durabilities are ultimately attributed to conqueror haki.

This is wrong. Kaido's durability is attributed solely to his DF and being a freaking dragon.
Big Mom's durability is associated to her unnatural skin. Never was Haki mentioned as the reason!

Law was the only one having problems utilizing his DF on them due to their Haki until he started showing off Awakening techniques. Trust me, it's been long and a re-read will definitely help.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2022 ---

WB could be damaged though that was attributed to his old age.

Whitebeard is a normal human, young or old. He doesn't have the ridiculous durable skin of Big Mom or even Kaido.
Big Mom and Kaido's bodies aren't changing. It's a permanent thing that has nothing to do with age. Whitebeard has high endurance to pain and inflicted damage but so does Kaido (and Big Mom to an extent).

CoC cladding does not grant durability but instead vastly improves defense as it does to attack strength. Your skin doesn't suddenly become stronger if you don't block. This is another misconception.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022 ---

Shanks is implied to be a cladding user as well so his durability is potentially comparable to kaido's or big mom's.

Shanks is not that durable. He's also a normal human like Whitebeard. Kaido and Big Mom are unnatural when it comes to durability.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022 ---

People keep talking about the bombs. The bombs had nothing to do with Big Mom's defeat other than keeping her from grabbing onto something as she fell. Law created a volcano and dropped Big Mom into it with Kid's help.

Bombs or not. They wouldn't have been able to stop her if not for the flying island they were on. They were both really lucky.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022 ---

Could kata and king take down BM, because this is what people are purposing if they think kidd is beaten by kata

They can theoretically do better. And if the battle was to happen in the same location, they're definitely getting the win.
It's easy to forget that the 5 Supernova on the rooftop almost sent Big Mom down the island initially, but she was lucky Kaido saved her ass back then.
Big Mom is a dumb fighter, that we know.

 

[Crimson Ice]

What do we even have to go off of that assign disrupts future sight, are we just giving Kid random feats/power ups? Big Mom hardly used COO to even have that be a valid statement.

I'm not sure what we're using the gauge that Kid is far above Katakuri (it's almost like we're saying that the antagonists never get stronger after an extreme diff). People are forgetting that Law hard carried that Big Mom fight, a lot of the damage Kid ultimately able to do was a result of Laws internal damage attacks, Kid's attacks didn't seem like they were doing much (IMO) until the Rail Gun and even then she was laughing, whereas for Law, Big Mom even took the time to show concern over the effectiveness of his attacks.

Katakuri has insane stamina, the man was using awakening, advanced COO and some form of advanced CoA for 12 hours (Block Mochi). Kat has shown a speed feat in the story that has only been matched by Kaido (Dogding the Snakeman punches). He can replicate everything Luffy can do (in terms of his base DF) and then some, so the question of his strength should be thrown out the window. Kat is extremely proficient in CoA and he has high base strength, are we really arguing that Kid who uses nothing but brute strength can out damage him, when did Haki become so irrelevant?

I can agree with Kid's durability being better as of now, but in terms of attack power his highest damaging attack is a Rail which he requires prep time for and it has not been shown that he can use assign and construct a rail gun at the same time.

I'll say this to finish off, in my opinion you replace Kat with Kid in that Big Mom fight and I think It'd have ended a lot sooner in favor of Law and Kat.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 23, 2022 ---

Katakuri by no means has comparable attack strength to Kid. He has good CoA and striking strength relative to WCI Snakeman Luffy, but his attack power is nowhere near Kid's. Katakuri could beat up on Luffy for hours and not put him down; in terms of pure striking strength, it seemed like Boundman was above him. He only regained the flow of the fight after getting composed again (meaning his observation was working correctly). Kid has feats of hurting Kaido and breaking Big Mom's bones, and that's without the railgun; Katakuri, in comparison, pales; he doesn't have the goods. Law and Kid vs Big Mam was a showcase of devil fruits, Kid doesn't have better haki than Katakuri, but Oda made it so that he doesn't need it. Law and Kat lose to Big Mam. Katakuri doesn't have the feats to even hurt Big Mam, let alone to the extent Kid did. The best Katakuri could do is make openings for Law, but that wouldn't last forever; eventually, Big Mam will just focus on Law.

Katakuri's speed>>>Kaido' speed

Kaido vs Snakeman

Katakuri vs Snakeman

Katakuri's Mochi Thrust>>>Kaido's conqueror coating

Luffy after taking Mochi Thrust (the attack didn't hit Luffy directly)

Luffy after taking conqueror coating attack from Kaido (Luffy took the attack head on)

Katakuri has top tier attack and speed. Two Katakuri are enough to beat Big Mom. They don't need bombs to do it

Luffy after taking a conqueror attack from Kaido:

Spoiler: Bonk

Luffy after taking a rokuogan from Lucci:

Spoiler: BANK!

Lucci has top tier attack power

 

[Nie Li]

Bombs or not. They wouldn't have been able to stop her if not for the flying island they were on. They were both really lucky.

No, them fighting on solid ground would have changed nothing. Law could have created the volcano even faster (he would have had to elongate his sword less to reach the depth he reached) and Big Mom would have fallen into a volcano exactly the same.

 

[BlackTiger]

Katakuri by no means has comparable attack strength to Kid. He has good CoA and striking strength relative to WCI Snakeman Luffy, but his attack power is nowhere near Kid's. Katakuri could beat up on Luffy for hours and not put him down; in terms of pure striking strength, it seemed like Boundman was above him. He only regained the flow of the fight after getting composed again (meaning his observation was working correctly). Kid has feats of hurting Kaido and breaking Big Mom's bones, and that's without the railgun; Katakuri, in comparison, pales; he doesn't have the goods. Law and Kid vs Big Mam was a showcase of devil fruits, Kid doesn't have better haki than Katakuri, but Oda made it so that he doesn't need it. Law and Kat lose to Big Mam. Katakuri doesn't have the feats to even hurt Big Mam, let alone to the extent Kid did. The best Katakuri could do is make openings for Law, but that wouldn't last forever; eventually, Big Mam will just focus on Law.


Luffy after taking a conqueror attack from Kaido:

Spoiler: Bonk

Luffy after taking a rokuogan from Lucci:

Spoiler: BANK!

Lucci has top tier attack power

Comparing EL to Wano which had 2 years gap with WCI to Wano which had 3 weeks gap. During 2 years Luffy improved all his stats while during 3 weeks from WCI to Wano Luffy only improved his attack power. Your comparison fails flat

 

[Crimson Ice]

Comparing EL to Wano which had 2 years gap with WCI to Wano which had 3 weeks gap. During 2 years Luffy improved all his stats while during 3 weeks from WCI to Wano Luffy only improved his attack power. Your comparison fails flat

Sarcastic post. I'm poking fun at your comparison. Onigashima round 3 Luffy>>>>>WCI Luffy, all of Luffy's stats got raised dramatically.

 

[BlackTiger]

Sarcastic post. I'm poking fun at your comparison. Onigashima round 3 Luffy>>>>>WCI Luffy, all of Luffy's stats got raised dramatically.

You are comparing pre TS Luffy (Enies Lobby) with post TS Luffy (Wano) while I'm comparing post TS Luffy (WCI) with post TS Luffy (Wano). You think Luffy during 2 years from Enies Lobby to Wano has the same growth rate as Luffy growth from WCI to Wano which was 3 weeks. There is no reason why 1 arc causes that huge boost in speed and durability when Luffy trained his armament mainly in Udon. That is like saying Zoro's stats improved drastically from Shells Town to Baratie but he was relative to Sanji who did not get powercreep.

WCI Luffy can tank Punk Corna Dio. There is no justification for Luffy's durability boost

 

[Nie Li]

My comparison is legit. There is no reason why 1 arc causes that huge boost in speed and durability when Luffy trained his armament mainly in Udon. That is like saying Zoro's stats improved drastically from Shells Town to Baratie but he was relative to Sanji who did not get powercreep.

WCI Luffy can tank Punk Corna Dio. There is no justification for Luffy's durability boost

Durability is tied to armament (and to CoC now) so we saw Luffy level it up twice during the arc.

You're right about speed, because Luffy's speed increment is illogical, but no matter how illogical it is, it is still real. It happened.

 

[BlackTiger]

Durability is tied to armament (and to CoC now) so we saw Luffy level it up twice during the arc.

You're right about speed, because Luffy's speed increment is illogical, but no matter how illogical it is, it is still real. It happened.

Luffy did not coat his body with armament when he took conqueror coating from Kaido. People just underrate Katakuri's attack power instead of appreciating Luffy's durability.

 

[Nie Li]

Luffy did not coat his body with armament when he took conqueror coating from Kaido. People just underrate Katakuri's attack power instead of appreciating Luffy's durability.

Many times armament is unshaded in the manga. I appreciate Luffy's durability... which is sustantiably better than it was before thanks to his improvement in haki.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2022 ---

Or, if you want to keep arguing that Luffy can tank Kaido's CoC without using any haki himself, then Luffy's body also got massively more durable than it was in WCI.

 

[BlackTiger]

Many times armament is unshaded in the manga. I appreciate Luffy's durability... which is sustantiably better than it was before thanks to his improvement in haki.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2022 ---

Or, if you want to keep arguing that Luffy can tank Kaido's CoC without using any haki himself, then Luffy's body also got massively more durable than it was in WCI.

Or Luffy was always that durable. We saw Doflamingo shaded his face and arms with armament haki to block Kong Gun. Katakuri shaded his face indicating armament haki when he exchanged blows with Snakeman Luffy. But we did not see any shades on Luffy's body when he took conqueror coating from Kaido. Luffy is always that durable.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022 ---

If Oda wanted to show Luffy used hardening to tank conqueror coating, oda would have showed it like in these panels

Luffy and Katakuri coated their faces and bodies with hardening when they exchanged blows. But there was no shade on Luffy's when he took conqueror coating.

 

[Nie Li]

Or Luffy was always that durable. We saw Doflamingo shaded his face and arms with armament haki to block Kong Gun. Katakuri shaded his face indicating armament haki when he exchanged blows with Snakeman Luffy. But we did not see any shades on Luffy's body when he took conqueror coating from Kaido. Luffy is always that durable.

Coating CoC is a powerboost strong enough that every character that has used it has suddenly injured Kaido for real (Luffy and Zoro). And you're telling me Luffy has always been durable enough to take those same hits (probably stronger ones since it's Kaido attacking) head on without haki. So Katakuri who was injuring Luffy a lot during their fight should possess stronger attack power than CoC coating, right?

Yeah... no. That doesn't work at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2022 ---

The panels you have presented further emphasize that, if you're right, Luffy's natural durability must have been immensely boosted after WCI unless you're truly insinuating Katakuri's attacks are fiercer than Kaido's.

 

[BlackTiger]

Coating CoC is a powerboost strong enough that every character that has used it has suddenly injured Kaido for real (Luffy and Zoro). And you're telling me Luffy has always been durable enough to take those same hits (probably stronger ones since it's Kaido attacking) head on without haki. So Katakuri who was injuring Luffy a lot during their fight should possess stronger attack power than CoC coating, right?

Yeah... no. That doesn't work at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2022 ---

The panels you have presented further emphasize that, if you're right, Luffy's natural durability must have been immensely boosted after WCI unless you're truly insinuating Katakuri's attacks are fiercer than Kaido's.

Kaido's attacks are stronger than Katakuri. Luffy tanked 100+ Katakuri's attacks. But Mochi Thrust seems to be more lethal than any conqueror coating Kaido dealt on Luffy. Kaido only needed like 10+ conqueror coating to KO Luffy. It's consistent. It doesn't take anything from Kaido. he is still a beast in attack power.

The panels I posted shows if Oda wanted to show Luffy used hardening to take Kaido's attacks, he would shade Luffy's face and body like when Snakeman Luffy exchanged blows with Katakuri. But Oda did not draw these shades when Luffy took conqueror coating from Kaido. Conclusion is Luffy took conqueror coating from Kaido without haki.

There is no durability boost when Luffy's training in Udon was armament. Luffy is always that durable. People should just accept this instead of giving Luffy the power up he never had.

 

[Fox666]

He never got faster in base. He's decently fast but future sight made it seem he got faster.
Just as in his fight with Katakuri. Luffy couldn't keep up without improving his already good enough observation Haki.
Katakuri's speed is almost comparable to Snake man Luffy yet Luffy went from barely able to dodge most of Kata's attacks to completely dodging most of it after slowly acquiring FS.
He didn't suddenly get faster rather his CoO got better.

CoC Haki cladding gives him serious boost in attack. FS helps him evade even some of the fastest attacks. They have nothing to do with speed (not even attack speed).

If you attribute all of Luffy feats to future sight, isn't that ignoring everything that happened while Luffy fought Kaido?


At the beggining, Kaido was so fast that Luffy couldn't see him coming.

Future sight or not, it doesn't change that Kaido was many times faster than him with Gear 4.

But after the rooftop battle, Luffy could fight him head-on for dozens of chapters in his base form:

 

[Nie Li]

Kaido's attacks are stronger than Katakuri. Luffy tanked 100+ Katakuri's attacks. But Mochi Thrust seems to be more lethal than any conqueror coating Kaido dealt on Luffy. Kaido only needed like 10+ conqueror coating to KO Luffy. It's consistent. It doesn't take anything from Kaido. he is still a beast in attack power.

The panels I posted shows if Oda wanted to show Luffy used hardening to take Kaido's attacks, he would shade Luffy's face and body like when Snakeman Luffy exchanged blows with Katakuri. But Oda did not draw these shades when Luffy took conqueror coating from Kaido. Conclusion is Luffy took conqueror coating from Kaido without haki.

There is no durability boost when Luffy's training in Udon was armament. Luffy is always that durable. People should just accept this instead of giving Luffy the power up he never had.

That is not a conclusion, that is an assumption. Oda is really not that consistent when drawing haki in use and, even more specifically, CoC coating has been shown in use with no blackening, so there's no proof Luffy was taking those attacks with no haki.

This is my last sentence on the topic: if Luffy had had the same durability in WCI as he had in Onigashima, he would have steamrolled Katakuri.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2022 ---

If you attribute all of Luffy feats to future sight, isn't that ignoring everything that happened while Luffy fought Kaido?


At the beggining, Kaido was so fast that Luffy couldn't see him coming.

Future sight or not, it doesn't change that Kaido was many times faster than him with Gear 4.

But after the rooftop battle, Luffy could fight him head-on for dozens of chapters in his base form:

Convinient post to add to mine. Thank you for those pictures.

@BlackTiger Check out Luffy's foot using CoC coating.

 

[BlackTiger]

That is not a conclusion, that is an assumption. Oda is really not that consistent when drawing haki in use and, even more specifically, CoC coating has been shown in use with no blackening, so there's no proof Luffy was taking those attacks with no haki.

This is my last sentence on the topic: if Luffy had had the same durability in WCI as he had in Onigashima, he would have steamrolled Katakuri.

There is no assumption here when Luffy stated he needed to hit harder to beat Kaido. Luffy never said he needed to be faster or he needed to be more durable to beat Kaido. All Luffy did in Udon was training his armament. He did not train his durability at all. Hardening on face to tank attacks need to be shown just like when Snakeman Luffy had shades on his face and body indicating he coated his face and body with armament to reduce the damage he took from Katakuri.

Convinient post to add to mine. Thank you for those pictures.

@BlackTiger Check out Luffy's foot using CoC coating.

Luffy coated his feet with conqueror to damage Kaido when Luffy kicked him. That doesn't prove how Luffy coated his face with conqueror when he took Kaido's conqueror coating when Oda did not shade Luffy's face.

 

[Nie Li]

Luffy coated his feet with conqueror to damage Kaido when Luffy kicked him. That doesn't prove how Luffy coated his face with conqueror when he took Kaido's conqueror coating when Oda did not shade Luffy's face.

I really don't want to continue the debate, but I've gotta ask: are you baiting or do you truly not see how Luffy's foot isn't shaded either?

 

[BlackTiger]

I really don't want to continue the debate, but I've gotta ask: are you baiting or do you truly not see how Luffy's foot isn't shaded either?

That is Luffy attacking. We know he used conqueror coating because there is a lightning streak here. The lightning streak was the impact of Luffy kicking Kaido with conqueror coating.

That was not the case when Luffy took conqueror coating from Kaido. If there was a lighting streak, it was not because Luffy coated his face with conqueror to reduce the damage he took from Kaido, the lighting streak was caused due to the impact of damage Kaido hitting Luffy. 2 different situations.

Conqueror coating is never shown to be able to be used as hardening to reduce damage. It's armament job. If Luffy used hardening when he took Kaido's attack Oda would have shaded Luffy's face but he did not shade Luffy's face. Luffy took Kaido's attack head on without haki protection.

 

[Rein Avara]

Katakuri by no means has comparable attack strength to Kid. He has good CoA and striking strength relative to WCI Snakeman Luffy, but his attack power is nowhere near Kid's. Katakuri could beat up on Luffy for hours and not put him down; in terms of pure striking strength, it seemed like Boundman was above him. He only regained the flow of the fight after getting composed again (meaning his observation was working correctly). Kid has feats of hurting Kaido and breaking Big Mom's bones, and that's without the railgun; Katakuri, in comparison, pales; he doesn't have the goods. Law and Kid vs Big Mam was a showcase of devil fruits, Kid doesn't have better haki than Katakuri, but Oda made it so that he doesn't need it. Law and Kat lose to Big Mam. Katakuri doesn't have the feats to even hurt Big Mam, let alone to the extent Kid did. The best Katakuri could do is make openings for Law, but that wouldn't last forever; eventually, Big Mam will just focus on Law.

How are we even gauging this "no comparable attack strength", Katakuri's strength and attack potency (with Block/power mochi) was higher than boundman Luffy. Luffy could not clash fish with Katakuri without screaming in pain, which indicated that Kat's armament haki was pretty advanced. We need to stop acting as if Kid broke Big Mom's bones on his own, matter of fact it's still vague whether it was his attack or Laws that did it; for the time being we can give it to Kid, but Law internal damage is what enabled him to do it, he otherwise lacks the required strength and haki to damage Big Mom. The areas where Big Moms bones were broken were the same areas where Law's shock Wile had penetrated, she even makes a comment to address the damage she took (not once is Kid mentioned might I add).

All Kid was doing was throwing/dropping shit towards Big Mom and he made use of assign and built a Rail Gun which she literally laughed off, she would have bounced back had Law not done the R.Room.

Kid has High base strength sure, but there's no way we can sit here and say that cat who has higher base strength, insanely high armament and observation haki proficiency and the he is without a doubt one of the fastest characters in the OP verse right now.

I don't get how we're saying "Brute strength >>> Advanced CoA, Advanced COO, Speed and High base strength, it makes no senses.

I've re-read the chapters and Kid was doing nothing till Law started using his awakening, although it's a gag Law made a point that Kid was waiting for him to use his abilities so that he could follow up, which basically tells me that he just lacks the facilities to damage Big Mom until Law weakens her defenses.

I'm not even trying to hate on Kid here, just being as realistic as I can be, having re-read the chapters surrounding the BM vs Kid & Law fight, I'm still waiting to be impressed by anything he's done.