One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[shailks]

Luffy has relatively poor stamina in his super forms and can still get wins. A high intensity burst can be enough to beat another character.

Yes but against a Yonkou, like Shanks or any Yonkou for that matter whose name doesn’t starts with B and ends with Y. No, if that were to be the case that Yonkou won’t survive long enough with that title. No one is one shotting anyone at this level, that’s the reason why they are big threats.

 

[grey matter]

Old people in the One Piece world doesn't get weaker

I don't think Rayleigh lacked stamina because he was old, but because he was out of shape

I wonder if it's possible he trained in the last 2 years too?

Whitebeard got nerfed as he aged too.
Sure, he was sick as well, but he also got nerfed by age.

Garp explicitly mentions himself being weaker after getting old

what i am trying to get across is that these characters are still pretty strong but would lose in an extended battle, especially to a yonkou like Shanks, and could be a reason why they chose to retire.

I think old Garp is still Yonko tier.

Old WB, without his sickness (i.e in meds), was unanimously considered the strongest Yonko, had conqueror's haki on par with Shanks (who is pretty much confirmed the strongest conqueror's haki user alive), had "always on" observation haki which allowed him to one shot Ace in his sleep (who was at least as strong as Jinbe back then), etc

Old Garp isn't sick, hence should scale to old WB without sickness. Since prime Garp is related to prime WB

I think, being old just pulls you down by a tier.
This suggests that prime WB, prime Garp and Roger were a tier above the current Yonkos.

Anyway, point being.
I can see old Garp MAYBE defeating Shanks. But old Rayleigh is a definite no, Shanks is probably as strong as prime Rayleigh

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2022 ---

Luffy has relatively poor stamina in his super forms and can still get wins. A high intensity burst can be enough to beat another character.

He gets wins cause whenever he runs out of gas, there is some excuse for the enemy not completely pulverizing the dude.

- Citizens bought time for Luffy against Doflamingo
- Luffy used Brulee as hostage against Katakuri
- Kaido simply didn't bother pulverizing Luffy's head after getting his wins, plus he went through the biggest gauntlet ever in the series. Plus, apparently Luffy actually died and revived

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2022 ---

Yes but against a Yonkou, like Shanks or any Yonkou for that matter whose name doesn’t starts with B and ends with Y. No, if that were to be the case that Yonkou won’t survive long enough with that title. No one is one shotting anyone at this level, that’s the reason why they are big threats.

Except when caught off guard.

Eg: Kaido one shotting Oden

 

[M3J]

Rayleigh has the stats to complete, but doesn't have the stamina.

He was slowly getting tired while fighting Kizaru, while Kizaru wasn't.

I don't think that'd mean Rayleigh would lose though, especially if he still has the strength to make up for his supposed lower stamina. He likely wasn't even going all out against Kizaru anyway, he just wanted to stall Kizaru long enough for the Straw Hats to get away.

 

[shailks]

I can see old Garp MAYBE defeating Shanks. But old Rayleigh is a definite no, Shanks is probably as strong as prime Rayleigh

Either way, we should find out soon enough. Strong good guys outnumber strong bad guys at the moment: you have Garp, Dragon, Rayleigh, Shanks (?), Luffy, the worst generation captains, Sabo vs a few admirals, BB and whatever secret powers WG have, so we should them balance out soon enough.

Chances are a lot of these older guys will not make it through as they would either sacrifice themselves or just stay retired for the story to work.

 

[Nie Li]

Either way, we should find out soon enough. Strong good guys outnumber strong bad guys at the moment: you have Garp, Dragon, Rayleigh, Shanks (?), Luffy, the worst generation captains, Sabo vs a few admirals, BB and whatever secret powers WG have, so we should them balance out soon enough.

Chances are a lot of these older guys will not make it through as they would either sacrifice themselves or just stay retired for the story to work.

The bad guys have 3 admirals (unless Fujitora turns coat), Akainu, Kong, possibly the Gorosei themselves (they look old, but they don't look weak), whatever the Holy Knights recently mentioned are, post-ts Lucci (for now worth mentioning as much as Sabo is), possibly Imu, possibly Kurouma (an admiral's codename suggests a similar standing), WG's secret weapon. Then, as a third party but also enemies, Blackbeard who could have a big heavy hitter or two in there if even Aokiji is technically his subordinate right now.

Oda could make up more unknown names working for the WG if he so wishes, but instead of having Garp and Rayleigh sit this one out with an excuse he should make them fight Kong or some Gorosei guy. Have the overpowered old men duke it out.

 

[grey matter]

Either way, we should find out soon enough. Strong good guys outnumber strong bad guys at the moment: you have Garp, Dragon, Rayleigh, Shanks (?), Luffy, the worst generation captains, Sabo vs a few admirals, BB and whatever secret powers WG have, so we should them balance out soon enough.

Chances are a lot of these older guys will not make it through as they would either sacrifice themselves or just stay retired for the story to work.

Garp and Sengoku are (?) too IMO. They are officially allied with the marines, and are proud marines themselves.
They probably will just choose to not participate, but them actively turning is something I doubt will happen.


But, the WG still have plenty of powerhouses (discounting for possible defections)
- 3 admirals, who are at least somewhat relative to Yonkos (say admirals are at minimum 90, if Yonkos are a 100)
- Akainu, who might be even stronger than Yonkos. The dude has one of the hightest hype from Oda
- Kong
- Sengoku (?)
- Garp (?)
- Lucci, who is hyped to be as strong as Sabo
- rest of CP0 (I can see some strong bois like Lucci at their top levels)
- other "code-named" vice admirals (they should be def top Yonko commander level at least)
- SSG, which is hyped to be more than a sufficient replacement for Shichibukai
- Gorosei, who probably are Yonko tier (pure speculation, but one of the dudes seem to be having one of the 12 supreme grade swords, which only top tiers can use)
- Imu, probably the strongest character ever in the verse


I think, Luffy and co as of now, are utterly outmatched. Like, they would get no diff'd if SHP + grand fleet go on war against the entire government.

Marineford only seemed remotely close, because Garp and Sengoku did nothing, while Kizaru and Aokiji were only semi serious. Only top tier who truly put 100% effort from Marines was Akainu. Gorosei and Kong didn't participate either. Neither did CP0

I don't think that'd mean Rayleigh would lose though, especially if he still has the strength to make up for his supposed lower stamina. He likely wasn't even going all out against Kizaru anyway, he just wanted to stall Kizaru long enough for the Straw Hats to get away.

Yeah Rayleigh didn't go all out, but Kizaru wasn't going all out either. They were both kinda semi serious, but that's about it.

As of now, nothing suggests that old Rayleigh can take on Shanks IMO. I can grant that the fight might start out with them evenly matched, but that's about it.

 

[LadyVados]

Yes but against a Yonkou, like Shanks or any Yonkou for that matter whose name doesn’t starts with B and ends with Y. No, if that were to be the case that Yonkou won’t survive long enough with that title. No one is one shotting anyone at this level, that’s the reason why they are big threats.

Ends with Y ?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 28, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 28, 2022 ---

Oh you mean Buggy

I thought you were talking about Big Mom

 

[M3J]

Yeah Rayleigh didn't go all out, but Kizaru wasn't going all out either. They were both kinda semi serious, but that's about it.

As of now, nothing suggests that old Rayleigh can take on Shanks IMO. I can grant that the fight might start out with them evenly matched, but that's about it.

Yeah so that skirmish shouldn't count against Rayleigh.

Nothing suggests that he can't, especially when he swam over a long distance even after dealing with a sea monster (I believe?) to get to Amazon Lily. That shows he does have some stamina. Plus, despite exposing that he's still in fact alive, Rayleigh seemed to have no qualms about traveling to another island on his own, even though as a former first mate of the most notorious pirate, he'd be hunted.

 

[grey matter]

Yeah so that skirmish shouldn't count against Rayleigh.

Nothing suggests that he can't, especially when he swam over a long distance even after dealing with a sea monster (I believe?) to get to Amazon Lily. That shows he does have some stamina. Plus, despite exposing that he's still in fact alive, Rayleigh seemed to have no qualms about traveling to another island on his own, even though as a former first mate of the most notorious pirate, he'd be hunted.

If Rayleigh got tired relatively quickly while not going all out, what happens when he is going all out? Safe to say he gets tired even faster.

Swimming across the sea and taking care of fodder sea monsters doesn't take as much effort as fighting at a high level with haki.

I think we have seen enough to scale Rayleigh's combat stats too Kizaru, at least until shown otherwise. If both were going all out, the fight would look pretty much the same with Rayleigh eventually running out of gas.
Same for Rayleigh vs Shanks

 

[shailks]

There are numerous hints throughout the manga that people in OP are not immune to old age, despite Oda's likeness to have strong old people. We can leave it at that: older guys can still be very strong but not at the same level as they were in their peak young age. Shanks is at his peak now, is feared greatly even by the top guns in the and will likely beat these geezers if it's an extended fight, but may be not. This is manga where we are seeing a 19yr old beating established Yonkous more than double his age, and constantly surprising everyone, so why is it hard to believe people get weaker as they age.

 

[Nie Li]

If Rayleigh got tired relatively quickly while not going all out, what happens when he is going all out? Safe to say he gets tired even faster.

Swimming across the sea and taking care of fodder sea monsters doesn't take as much effort as fighting at a high level with haki.

I think we have seen enough to scale Rayleigh's combat stats too Kizaru, at least until shown otherwise. If both were going all out, the fight would look pretty much the same with Rayleigh eventually running out of gas.
Same for Rayleigh vs Shanks

I'd normally agree but his swimming feat is possibly the most impressive stamina feat in the whole series for me. Either he just got a little bit back in shape after Sabaody or his low stamina against Kizaru got heavily contradicted.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 30, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 30, 2022 ---

Something to clarify from what I just said: Rayleigh having high stamina or the best feat of it doesn't mean other high tiers couldn't do the same or better if they could swim, but his stamina being so low as to get tired in mere minutes as his fight with Kizaru would normally suggest is bull because of his swimming feat.

 

[shailks]

I'd normally agree but his swimming feat is possibly the most impressive stamina feat in the whole series for me. Either he just got a little bit back in shape after Sabaody or his low stamina against Kizaru got heavily contradicted.

Powerscaling characters are difficult, especially when they are all this impressive. That's the reason why i tend to shy away from this page... you can hardly ever conclusively prove anything lol.

 

[LadyVados]

Rayleigh being out of shape and then getting back in shape and getting his stamina back before the swimming feat is possible.

 

[grey matter]

I'd normally agree but his swimming feat is possibly the most impressive stamina feat in the whole series for me. Either he just got a little bit back in shape after Sabaody or his low stamina against Kizaru got heavily contradicted.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 30, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 30, 2022 ---

Something to clarify from what I just said: Rayleigh having high stamina or the best feat of it doesn't mean other high tiers couldn't do the same or better if they could swim, but his stamina being so low as to get tired in mere minutes as his fight with Kizaru would normally suggest is bull because of his swimming feat.

Yeah, I get what you are saying.

One possibility is that Rayleigh didn't fight in 20+ years and was drinking/gambling the entire time.
So, he lacked stamina from being out of touch/shape as well, even apart from being old. Maybe he warmed up a bit since then and now has more stamina.

But, for now, the only combat feat Rayleigh has is fighting equally with Kizaru for a while and then slowly getting tired along the way at the fight progressed.
Until we get any more high level combat feat from him, this is all that we have to go with.

Rayleigh being out of shape and then getting back in shape and getting his stamina back before the swimming feat is possible.

Yeah it's possible, but for now there is nothing concrete that suggests he can fight for an extended time at high level.

 

[LadyVados]

I had an an argument about the statement in the databook saying Zoro was the 2nd strongest straw hat before and how that doesn’t prevent Luffy and Zoro from being equals on this thread about a year ago and I used very poor and stupid arguments.

A much better argumentation line would be that databook entry just meant that Zoro was weaker than Luffy at that point in time (immediately post-wci) and doesn’t mean they can’t be equals or something by EOS.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 30, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 30, 2022 ---

I love Shanks feats and epic moments because if Shanks is this powerful, how strong must Mihawk must be? And how strong will EOS Zoro be ?!

 

[grey matter]

I had an an argument about the statement in the databook saying Zoro was the 2nd strongest straw hat before and how that doesn’t prevent Luffy and Zoro from being equals on this thread about a year ago and I used very poor and stupid arguments.

A much better argumentation line would be that databook entry just meant that Zoro was weaker than Luffy at that point in time (immediately post-wci) and doesn’t mean they can’t be equals or something by EOS.

You're still doing this

Luffy forever > Zoro, the sooner you accept it the lesser the pain lol.
The best case scenario for Zoro would be him being on the same tier as Luffy, but weaker. There are some points in the story where you could argue this was the case, so this wouldn't be an impossible EOS scenario

I love Shanks feats and epic moments because if Shanks is this powerful, how strong must Mihawk must be? And how strong will EOS Zoro be ?!

Mihawk is relative to Shanks, so take it as you will.

Morj did a video on the whole Mihawk vs Shanks thing, I found it a pretty good analysis addressing each side's argument. Honestly the best analysis I've seen on the topic.



TLDR version of the video:
The conclusion basically was him saying Mihawk > Shanks IF they stick to a sword fight. Haki cladding, observation haki etc all are included there, because haki is an integral part of high level swords fight.
According to him, there is also possibility of Shanks being overall > Mihawk while being inferior to him in swords fight, if Shanks is also capable of doing something with his haki that is clearly not a part of swords fight. Like for example, if Shanks is capable of using haki blasts (a hypothetical example he bought up) and what not.

We saw Shanks doing something indicative of this in the latest chapter. But then again, he seemingly channeled his conqueror's haki through his swords, which might be the next level of flying slashes.
But if Shanks end up doing some kamehameha thing, that clearly wouldn't be a part of swords fight.

 

[LadyVados]

The best case scenario for Zoro would be him being on the same tier as Luffy, but weaker. There are some points in the story where you could argue this was the case, so this wouldn't be an impossible EOS scenario

Yeah same tier, roughly equal, they could both beat each other on a given day.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Shanks haki is being really hyped but I'm wondering in a 1v1 fight would Shanks beat Kaido more often than not? Whoever wins the fight to me it's a given that it will be high diff. I'm just wondering if Shanks will be a higher pillar than Kaido strength wise or will it just be more significant that Luffy gets a win in a full 1v1.

Since Kaido seems the strongest we've seen and has also been hyped in 1v1, I don't know if Shanks will actually be stronger than him. I'll give Shanks the edge in haki & technique but I think Kaido's physical stats + DF powers are bigger deal. Hopefully we get to see Shanks fight all out soon so we can settle one in for all his tier. I would be pleasantly surprised if he turns out to be in the prime Roger/WB/Garp/Xebec power level.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Shanks haki is being really hyped but I'm wondering in a 1v1 fight would Shanks beat Kaido more often than not? Whoever wins the fight to me it's a given that it will be high diff. I'm just wondering if Shanks will be a higher pillar than Kaido strength wise or will it just be more significant that Luffy gets a win in a full 1v1.

Since Kaido seems the strongest we've seen and has also been hyped in 1v1, I don't know if Shanks will actually be stronger than him. I'll give Shanks the edge in haki & technique but I think Kaido's physical stats + DF powers are bigger deal. Hopefully we get to see Shanks fight all out soon so we can settle one in for all his tier. I would be pleasantly surprised if he turns out to be in the prime Roger/WB/Garp/Xebec power level.

Kaido said it best. Haki above all. His own words.

In a battle of top tiers, the only thing that matter is haki. How we want to rationalize that in powerscaling is up to how we interpret those words

 

[Moss Green]

You're still doing this

Luffy forever > Zoro, the sooner you accept it the lesser the pain lol.
The best case scenario for Zoro would be him being on the same tier as Luffy, but weaker. There are some points in the story where you could argue this was the case, so this wouldn't be an impossible EOS scenario



Mihawk is relative to Shanks, so take it as you will.

Morj did a video on the whole Mihawk vs Shanks thing, I found it a pretty good analysis addressing each side's argument. Honestly the best analysis I've seen on the topic.



TLDR version of the video:
The conclusion basically was him saying Mihawk > Shanks IF they stick to a sword fight. Haki cladding, observation haki etc all are included there, because haki is an integral part of high level swords fight.
According to him, there is also possibility of Shanks being overall > Mihawk while being inferior to him in swords fight, if Shanks is also capable of doing something with his haki that is clearly not a part of swords fight. Like for example, if Shanks is capable of using haki blasts (a hypothetical example he bought up) and what not.

We saw Shanks doing something indicative of this in the latest chapter. But then again, he seemingly channeled his conqueror's haki through his swords, which might be the next level of flying slashes.
But if Shanks end up doing some kamehameha thing, that clearly wouldn't be a part of swords fight.

We’ve watched Zoro for a 1000 chapters and he’s not once gone looking for a “sword fight” or made excuses about someone’s fighting style. Being the WSS means being the strongest person who fights with just a sword, the opponents and their fighting styles clearly don’t matter to Zoro so for now we can assume the same is true for Mihawk

People aren’t comfortable with the idea that Mihawk might be stronger than Shanks and that’s ok but it’s entirely possible. But Mihawk won’t be weaker than Shanks because of some mental gymnastics around fighting style. If he’s weaker he’s weaker nothing else matters