One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

We’ve watched Zoro for a 1000 chapters and he’s not once gone looking for a “sword fight” or made excuses about someone’s fighting style. Being the WSS means being the strongest person who fights with just a sword, the opponents and their fighting styles clearly don’t matter to Zoro so for now we can assume the same is true for Mihawk

People aren’t comfortable with the idea that Mihawk might be stronger than Shanks and that’s ok but it’s entirely possible. But Mihawk won’t be weaker than Shanks because of some mental gymnastics around fighting style. If he’s weaker he’s weaker nothing else matters

Fighting styles doesn't matter to a degree.

If Law beat Mihawk with his DF it wouldn't make him the WSS just because he had a sword. His abilities are insanely hax

Law with his DF is not JUST a swordsman
Big Mom with her DF is not JUST a swordsman.

And like I mentioned earlier, Kaido acknowledge than in a fight between high tier fighters the one with the strongest haki wins. Abilities don't matter as much.

Shanks has shown up until this point, the greatest haki feat in the manga.

Portrayal matters and Shanks just paralyzed an Admiral who was man MANY miles away. And Mihawk is being kept I the reserves for Zoro but HIGHLY doubt Mohawk has better CoC than Shanks. But it's highly likely Mihawk's CoO is far and away the greatest in the verse.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Kaido said it best. Haki above all. His own words.

In a battle of top tiers, the only thing that matter is haki. How we want to rationalize that in powerscaling is up to how we interpret those words

I happen to disagree with Kaido. To me power is above all, regardless of the source. Haki is just one possible factor of power level, not the end all be all.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I happen to disagree with Kaido. To me power is above all, regardless of the source. Haki is just one possible factor of power level, not the end all be all.

Until we have someone saying that in the story, I'm sticking to what is established in the manga Haki> everything else

 

[albertwv]

And we're back to the what makes a swordsman a swordsman in order to argue Shanks > Mihawk. I personally believe Shanks > Mihawk, but will not argue it because it will fuel this ongoing never ending discussion.

Spoiler

So we have kinda confirmed that Kaido > Admirals? Well at least Kaido > Green Bull, as GB himself said that if Kaido was still In Wano, he would not have come, therefore fearing the Yonko. I still believe Kaido > any admiral even Old Garp and even Akainu. only Prime Garp and Prime Sengoku would defeat current Kaido.

Shanks > Green Bull, that's for sure too. Kinda gives me hope that my theory of Yonko > Admirals is true. 2 cases we have seen where Shanks can make even an Admiral stand down. Though, given that GB was outnumbered.

I think it is crazy how Shanks was able to feel GB's presence from so far away. Unless the Flower Capital is close to the ocean, which I doubt, since Shanks wasn't even up in Wano, but rather below the waterfall, so that must have been something crazy or a typical Oda "Asspull" of a power.

 

[Pirate Queen]

@albertwv no spoilers yet bud. In the wrong thread

 

[HereNThere]

I'm mixed on Kaido's words.

Yes, the series has leaned heavily towards haki being the end-all be-all, but it seems weird for Oda to verbalize that through an antagonist whose entire worldview is shaped solely through one's strength and combat in general and has been implied to have been wrongheaded in a lot of his thinking. Nevermind that Kaido's own words were contradicted not even 10 chapters prior with Kid and Law managing to take down Big Mom with their fruit abilities and not their haki proficiency.

There is also the fact that Kaido ignores the fact that Roger didn't "conquer the world" alone. Roger's other source of strength was his crew and allies. Rocks, the individual who may have been closest to becoming King of the World, likely failed because his crew turned on him and left him for death.

So I'm not sure if Kaido is supposed to be completely correct in his assertions at the moment.

 

[Moss Green]

Fighting styles doesn't matter to a degree.

If Law beat Mihawk with his DF it wouldn't make him the WSS just because he had a sword. His abilities are insanely hax

Law with his DF is not JUST a swordsman
Big Mom with her DF is not JUST a swordsman.

And like I mentioned earlier, Kaido acknowledge than in a fight between high tier fighters the one with the strongest haki wins. Abilities don't matter as much.

Shanks has shown up until this point, the greatest haki feat in the manga.

Portrayal matters and Shanks just paralyzed an Admiral who was man MANY miles away. And Mihawk is being kept I the reserves for Zoro but HIGHLY doubt Mohawk has better CoC than Shanks. But it's highly likely Mihawk's CoO is far and away the greatest in the verse.

I agree 100%. Which is why I find this particular discussion so reductive. Shanks by definition can’t be stronger than Mihawk if he just fights with a sword. Oda hasn’t shown us a millisecond of Mihawk even remotely serious so he’s obviously got some of the same juice Shanks has based on their relationship and where Zoro is. Regardless of the particulars of his skill set (& I kind of agree with you on that assessment).

So if Shanks isn’t the WSS he’s either weaker than Mihawk, has a DF, or has a weird fighting style. We haven’t seen him fight so the latter two are definitely possible. The problem is people don’t want to accept that the first option is possible too.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I agree 100%. Which is why I find this particular discussion so reductive. Shanks by definition can’t be stronger than Mihawk if he just fights with a sword. Oda hasn’t shown us a millisecond of Mihawk even remotely serious so he’s obviously got some of the same juice Shanks has based on their relationship and where Zoro is. Regardless of the particulars of his skill set (& I kind of agree with you on that assessment).

So if Shanks isn’t the WSS he’s either weaker than Mihawk, has a DF, or has a weird fighting style. We haven’t seen him fight so the latter two are definitely possible. The problem is people don’t want to accept that the first option is possible too.

It's just the first option makes the least amount of sense when you consider both of their positions and portrayal.

Mihawk stopped fighting Shanks 4 years before he became strong enough to be a Yonko. Considering 4 years ago Luffy was weak as shit, 4 years is plenty of time to increase their strength drastically. Mihawk never fought Shanks as a Yonko, he fought an up and coming pirate that was very very powerful(they had legendary duels heard throughout NewWorld) so they arent in anyway comparable now in the story.

Portrayal wise you have Shanks clashing with Whitebeard, clashing with Akainu, stopping the great war, making kaido backdoor somehow from reaching marineford, and displays haki strong enough to paralyze an Admiral and make him back down. Mihawk clashed evenly with Vista(que the "Mihawk wasn't trying" despite knowing Vista has Mihawk's respect) and split a tidal wave. Portrayal alone puts Shanks at LEAST a tier above Mihawk.

I'm open for Mihawk being stronger, but it makes the least amount of sense knowing what we know. A title just isn't enough to automatically put Mihawk over Shanks. That's a fact. Whitebeard was called the WSM and then we were introduced to Kaido and given an explanation why Whitebeard wasn't a stronger combatant that Kaido. So I'll need more evidence that Mihawk is stronger.


If you think about it, there is a reason Shanks has made the most top tiers back down than any other character

Shanks made Kaido return to Wano
Shanks had Mihawk leaving Marineford because "that wasn't part of the order"
Shanks got a bloodlusted Akanu to stand down
Shanks got Greenbull to stand down.

Shanks is probably the strongest character in the verse at this point.


And honestly we will never know because it looks like Mihawk's biggest fight is going to be against Zoro and he is DESTINED to lose that fight.

 

[john ellis]

Mihawk likely has a bounty over 3 bil and is a yonko level fighter but he probably is weaker then shanks

 

[Pirate Queen]

Mihawk likely has a bounty over 3 bil and is a yonko level fighter but he probably is weaker then shanks

I doubt Mihawk has a Bounty higher than BB's 2.2 Billion Bounty

 

[Moss Green]

It's just the first option makes the least amount of sense when you consider both of their positions and portrayal.

Mihawk stopped fighting Shanks 4 years before he became strong enough to be a Yonko. Considering 4 years ago Luffy was weak as shit, 4 years is plenty of time to increase their strength drastically. Mihawk never fought Shanks as a Yonko, he fought an up and coming pirate that was very very powerful(they had legendary duels heard throughout NewWorld) so they arent in anyway comparable now in the story.

Portrayal wise you have Shanks clashing with Whitebeard, clashing with Akainu, stopping the great war, making kaido backdoor somehow from reaching marineford, and displays haki strong enough to paralyze an Admiral and make him back down. Mihawk clashed evenly with Vista(que the "Mihawk wasn't trying" despite knowing Vista has Mihawk's respect) and split a tidal wave. Portrayal alone puts Shanks at LEAST a tier above Mihawk.

I'm open for Mihawk being stronger, but it makes the least amount of sense knowing what we know. A title just isn't enough to automatically put Mihawk over Shanks. That's a fact. Whitebeard was called the WSM and then we were introduced to Kaido and given an explanation why Whitebeard wasn't a stronger combatant that Kaido. So I'll need more evidence that Mihawk is stronger.


If you think about it, there is a reason Shanks has made the most top tiers back down than any other character

Shanks made Kaido return to Wano
Shanks had Mihawk leaving Marineford because "that wasn't part of the order"
Shanks got a bloodlusted Akanu to stand down
Shanks got Greenbull to stand down.

Shanks is probably the strongest character in the verse at this point.


And honestly we will never know because it looks like Mihawk's biggest fight is going to be against Zoro and he is DESTINED to lose that fight.

“Shanks is probably the strongest person in the verse at this point”

Yea now that the two guys stronger than him are dead. He’s also 100% weaker than Blackbeard

I’m not sure how you can say “titles don’t matter” when the actual purpose of the story is obtaining a title. They’re a narrative device used to tell us how we should scale a character that’s just not up for debate. They’re only 3 strength related titles and 2 of them were held by Yonkou. Yet I’m to understand that the 3rd should be different?

Whether Mihawks or Shanks is stronger is only up for them to decide. But the idea that he’s weaker than Shanks solely because of his on-screen interactions doesn’t hold water. Do you think Garp is weak because he doesn’t have a split the sky panel with Roger? Of course not.

Based on the skills Zoro’s learned we can essentially give his and Shanks feats to Mihawk. We already do the same thing with Garp. Unless you want to have a convo about how Garp is weak because he got held up in a fight with the Don

 

[Pirate Queen]

“Shanks is probably the strongest person in the verse at this point”

Yea now that the two guys stronger than him are dead.

I’m not sure how you can say “titles don’t matter” when the actual purpose of the story is obtaining a title. They’re a narrative device used to tell us how we should scale a character that’s just not up for debate. They’re only 3 strength related titles and 2 of them were held by Yonkou. Yet I’m to understand that the 3rd should be different?

Whether Mihawks or Shanks is stronger is only up for them to decide. But the idea that he’s weaker than Shanks solely because of his on-screen interactions doesn’t hold water. Do you think Garp is weak because he doesn’t have a split the sky panel with Roger? Of course not.

Based on the skills Zoro’s learned we can essentially give his and Shanks feats to Mihawk. We already do the same thing with Garp. Unless you want to have a convo about how Garp is weak because he got held up in a fight with the Don

We were outright told Garp was equal to Roger. You don't need on screen feats for that to be proven. Roger himself said that they fought many times.

You don't give feats to other characters. Come on now . No one gives Garp's feats to anyone. We are told plainly how strong he is.

And the only title that MATTERS is Pirate King. The other titles narrativly don't matter.

 

[Moss Green]

We were outright told Garp was equal to Roger. You don't need on screen feats for that to be proven. Roger himself said that they fought many times.

You don't give feats to other characters. Come on now . No one gives Garp's feats to anyone. We are told plainly how strong he is.

And the only title that MATTERS is Pirate King. The other titles narrativly don't matter.

“We were outright told Shanks and Mihawk had legendary duels renowned the world over. You don’t need on-screen feats for that to be proven. Shanks himself asked Mihawk if he came for another fight when they met.”

 

[Pirate Queen]

“We were outright told Shanks and Mihawk had legendary duels renowned the world over. You don’t need on-screen feats for that to be proven. Shanks himself asked Mihawk if he came for another fight when they met.”

I gave already debunked this. Mihawk stopped fighting Shanks 4 years PRIOR to Shanks becoming a Yonko. Mihawk never fought Shanks as a Yonko and I already explained the difference in strength 4 years can make.

Their legendary duels with preYonko Shanks.

Are you going to compare Luffy struggling with Buggy with Luffy struggling with Kaido as well?

Your counter argument fails on its face. Mihawk has no CURRENT feats against Shanks or any top tier that puts him in the same league as Shanks. Sorry I know that souks but like you said how some people can't accept Mihawk being stronger than Shanks, the alternative is just as hard to swallow for some.

 

[john ellis]

I doubt Mihawk has a Bounty higher than BB's 2.2 Billion Bounty

err i would be surprized if he didn't. One the warlords are all possibly going to get increased bounties anyway. But with creep of bounties and the fact odo stated that he would be revealing pirates with over 3 billion bounties. It wouldn't make much sense not to include mihawk here.

 

[Pirate Queen]

err i would be surprized if he didn't. One the warlords are all possibly going to get increased bounties anyway. But with creep of bounties and the fact odo stated that he would be revealing pirates with over 3 billion bounties. It wouldn't make much sense not to include mihawk here.

When did Oda say that? Mihawk is basically a nihilist. He is no danger to the WG unless provoked. He doesn't seek out trouble, he doesn't break the law, nor does he seek the One Piece. He chills on his island waiting g for strong opponents to emerge for him to challenge.

I do not expect a 180⁰ turn first his character where he is suddenly breaking laws and going on ramages

 

[Moss Green]

I gave already debunked this. Mihawk stopped fighting Shanks 4 years PRIOR to Shanks becoming a Yonko. Mihawk never fought Shanks as a Yonko and I already explained the difference in strength 4 years can make.

Their legendary duels with preYonko Shanks.

Are you going to compare Luffy struggling with Buggy with Luffy struggling with Kaido as well?

Your counter argument fails on its face. Mihawk has no CURRENT feats against Shanks or any top tier that puts him in the same league as Shanks. Sorry I know that souks but like you said how some people can't accept Mihawk being stronger than Shanks, the alternative is just as hard to swallow for some.

I’m not arguing that one is stronger than the other. I’m arguing that you don’t get to pick and choose.

Mihawk is likely in the same league as Shanks because people who’ve fought seriously as rivals in the story typically are. Roger & WB. Roger & Garp. Ace & Sabo. Etc. Buggy is the best you could come up with? Seriously? I know you read Impel Down.

Garp fought Roger long before he officially became the “Pirate King” does that not count as him fighting a top tier? It’s so lazy to ignore portrayals and titles because you feel like it that but I’m sure you’re just trolling at this point.

 

[shailks]

And not everyone is gonna progress at the same rate as Luffy. Luffy’s progress is mind boggling, followed only by his teammates (zoro and sanji). For fighting purposes Mihawk is same tier as Shanks but as I mentioned before Shank’s impact to the story is very different to Mihawk’s. It doesn’t matter if you are the strongest if you are just going to roam around idly. This is why I want Zoro to beat some top tier non swordsman (admirals may be), more than him becoming the strongest swordsman, which doesn’t seem as big a goal as it used to be.

 

[Rmstorm]

I had an an argument about the statement in the databook saying Zoro was the 2nd strongest straw hat before and how that doesn’t prevent Luffy and Zoro from being equals on this thread about a year ago and I used very poor and stupid arguments.

A much better argumentation line would be that databook entry just meant that Zoro was weaker than Luffy at that point in time (immediately post-wci) and doesn’t mean they can’t be equals or something by EOS.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 30, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 30, 2022 ---

I love Shanks feats and epic moments because if Shanks is this powerful, how strong must Mihawk must be? And how strong will EOS Zoro be ?!

Zoro and Luffy are not going to even be int he same tier. EoS Luffy will be in a tier above Zoro. The sooner you acceot this the better.

Oda making Luffy a CoC Specialist and Zoro a CoA Specialists should make this clear.

Luffy fighting Blackbeard without his Devil Fruit should also make this clear for you.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I’m not arguing that one is stronger than the other. I’m arguing that you don’t get to pick and choose.

Mihawk is likely in the same league as Shanks because people who’ve fought seriously as rivals in the story typically are. Roger & WB. Roger & Garp. Ace & Sabo. Etc. Buggy is the best you could come up with? Seriously? I know you read Impel Down.

Garp fought Roger long before he officially became the “Pirate King” does that not count as him fighting a top tier? It’s so lazy to ignore portrayals and titles because you feel like it that but I’m sure you’re just trolling at this point.

How am I trolling when you haven't debunked a single point of mine? Your the one picking and choosing and have yet to counter a single point of mine.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 31, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 31, 2022 ---

And not everyone is gonna progress at the same rate as Luffy. Luffy’s progress is mind boggling, followed only by his teammates (zoro and sanji). For fighting purposes Mihawk is same tier as Shanks but as I mentioned before Shank’s impact to the story is very different to Mihawk’s. It doesn’t matter if you are the strongest if you are just going to roam around idly. This is why I want Zoro to beat some top tier non swordsman (admirals may be), more than him becoming the strongest swordsman, which doesn’t seem as big a goal as it used to be.

No one is saying progresses as fast as Luffy only that 4 years is a massive gap to not fight someone who then went on to become a Yonko.