One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

From what I understand, the context behind that one isn't as bad as the other scene.

Fujitora and Kizaru didn't want an all out fight to involve civilians anymore than they already were. At least, that's what I read.

Always an excuse to not fight Shanks lol that's awesome

 

[HereNThere]

More so Fujitora, I don't Kizaru cares about the Civillians.. he was willing to kill them earlier just to get to Uta soo..

Alright, that looks bad for Kizaru, I admit, but I'll think of a reason, just give me a minute...

 

[JStackz26]

I was just thinking about this recently.

Now, I'm a Sanji stan. If Sanji had CoC, I'd be more than fine with it, and, depending on the day, I'm all in on him having it. Even on those days, using Volume 100's cover is pretty flimsy reasoning, in my opinion. At most, it'd be a nice easter egg once it's all said it done, but it being the sole hint would be pretty weak. I personally prefer this route here:



And his unwillingness to do anything despite being in danger against Black Maria is less about him being helpless and more about him finally asking for help. It's more of paying off a character arc rather than setting up CoC.

Luffy having more than 2 CoC users on his crew aside from him seems like a potential possibility. Mainly because, in my opinion, it'd show how he is a King among Kings, being charismatic enough to even charm other Kings to be under him and be loyal to him. I mean, it doesn't even end in his crew. Katakuri, Hancock, Chin Jao, Shanks, and Rayleigh are all charmed with Luffy and have completely allied themselves to him. It's pretty ridiculous, but it makes sense for the chosen one.

And should have it, he would likely just be someone who could use the base form, not among the strongest handful to use the more advanced version.

Now, despite all of that, I'd be fine if he didn't have it. He isn't a lesser character for it and Oda is still going to have him be a formidable character without it, leaning into the whole Power of Science aspect which should be getting a bit more development pretty soon with Vegapunk, MADS, the SSG, and the Science Mink.

I've spoken numerous reasons elsewhere, it just really gets exhausting to post though. I don't disagree with those. I feel at least Yamato, Zoro and Sanji should have it. But all three should be able to use ACoC like Luffy. I mean Kaido said only a handful of people can use it and Oda only showed 5. But I believe he wasn't being so literal about handful. As Chinjao said there are countless Haoshoku Haki users all over the world. So amongst them there is only a few of them that could use the ability.
And think about it, the people Kaido mentioned were all from Roger's era even if just apprentice pirates (Shanks). So the only one from the new Era mentioned is Luffy.
Then you add Zoro and Yamato. And of course Roger, Rocks, Whitebeard, Kaido, Oden and Shanks were all closely linked. They were just the main players in the last 2 Eras. Next here is the key thing Oda did. Oda did not mention Big Mom but then showed Big Mom coating in Haoshoku Haki. Meaning that more than the people Kaido listed could use it. Kaido seem to just mention pirates he knows could damage him. Plus given Big Mom splitting the sky with Kaido her omission was a bit odd, so that may mean Oda omitted her because he intended to have her use the ability later to open the door to others being able to use the ability.
Remember Yamato used it but that doesn't make her superior to Kaido. It just meant that she could give Kaido are tougher fight than most.
So of
Roger, Rocks, Whitebeard, Kaido, Shanks, Oden and Big Mom (and possibly Shiki and the others mentioned, maybe even Rayleigh but Oda didn't want to reveal the ability so early) are just a 7 (and possibly more) pirates of many years of pirates. So now their era comes to a close, and it possibly opens the reality there will be a new crop of those users. Including Luffy we already have three linked to Luffy.

So Rocks here: They had 4 members and Oden being under Whitebeard later on in life as well as Yamato being child of Kaido basically says ties to Rocks basically 4-6 had Advanced Haokshoku Haki (maybe 7 if Blackbeard, idk if you count Ace as he was Roger's child from that Era but that would contradict my Luffy Yamato thing but Yamato is possibly joining a New Era pirate rather than Whitebeard). The concept that Luffy could have 4 members who can do it isn't to sketchy ultimately.
I'd guess Oda eventually plans to make the Strawhats outpace the rest of the supernova. As they were all people who arrived on Sabaody at the same time. And Wano seems to represent the Strawhats catching up to the Supernova in those lost 2 years in terms of the Pirate World, with them eventually surpassing what the other Supernova are doing.
Sanji fits having that Haki and the Conqueror's coating. (I wonder if conqueror's coating affects his chivalry thing as he'd be sending air or something at them lol or he maybe does what Shanks did). I mean Sanji's Haki seems to be something Oda toys around with as we went from well he doesn't specialize in it like Zoro therefore Sanji's is weak and then we see the Judge display and he doesn't coat and still gets hurt. But then we hear that he didn't coat in CoA because he felt he would injure Black Maria's hands. Black Maria being someone who had a bounty slightly above Jinbe's at the time it was frozen (we get bounty is not strength but threat level but look at this, Nico Robin should have one of the highest bounties if bounty was not relative to strength. it seems the focus is more strength and perceived ability than threat with a mix of threat and perception of threat playing a smaller factor). Of course she didn't really show Haki and I guess that's because Oda meant for her to fight Robin who didn't have it. So her using it coated against Sanji and not coated with Robin would have been odd as heck. So maybe Oda scrapped using coating altogether for her. But point being that Sanji's Haki seems to have been much stronger than Oda led us to believe but Sanji keeps it heavily suppressed for some reason. Not like so overwhelming he has to suppress it but rather he just hasn't learned to fully tap into it and doesn't use it to the level it exists.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Alright, that looks bad for Kizaru, I admit, but I'll think of a reason, just give me a minute...

Spoiler: Red

We've given you MANY minutes. Admit the Admirals are BUMS when faced with the CoC god

 

[M3J]

Shanks being someone special explains this:

However, being just a Celestial Dragon shouldn't be enough. Doflamingo was born a Celestial Dragon, but he was still trash in the eyes of the Marines.

I think an SBS, Vivre Card, or something mentioned that it was Shanks' pacifist nature that got him respect and whatnot, because he was seeking the most peaceful solutions instead of causing trouble. Did he ever start shit at any time during his appearances, or did he only retaliate to protect and avoid further bloodshed?

 

[HereNThere]

Spoiler: Red

We've given you MANY minutes. Admit the Admirals are BUMS when faced with the CoC god

Until I see the Admirals retreat from Yonkou/AdCoC user on neutral ground or when they are going at it solo in the manga, I remain firm in my convictions.

They still have the benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned. Shanks can have his hype, but I still believe in the Admirals dammit.

Spoiler: I STILL BELIEVE

 

[Pirate Queen]

A list of people that Shanks has had stand down instead of engaging him:

Kaido
Akainu (all marines)
Blackbeard
Mihawk

Spoiler: Spoiler

Fujitora
Kizaru

Aramaki
Kizaru


And there is always a convenient excuse, I can't wait to see more Shanks hype. Since Oda has a hard on for Shanks I dont think we will see anything less than a legendary exit for Red Hair that eclipses even Whitebeard's!

 

[Fox666]

Film Red:

Spoiler

While it revealed some information about Shanks, it's only repeating what was already shown in the manga, to an annoying extend.

"Shanks used a CoC burts on the Admirals"

 

[grey matter]

Until I see the Admirals retreat from Yonkou/AdCoC user on neutral ground or when they are going at it solo in the manga, I remain firm in my convictions.

They still have the benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned. Shanks can have his hype, but I still believe in the Admirals dammit.

Spoiler: I STILL BELIEVE

IMO, the "average" Yonko > "average" admiral, I think we have enough narrative that suggests this. Though, the level is very close. The admirals would give the Yonko a run for their money.

The exceptions I see, are the "fleet admiral" materials like Akainu and Sengoku, who I consider above the "average" Yonko.
Akainu likely has conqueror's haki (and by extension advanced), considering his demeanor and will power.
Sengoku is also pretty much definitely an advanced conqueror's haki user. Prime Sengoku has hype on or above Yonkos, since Roger considered him a credible threat. But then again, he was a part of the old era (Roger era) which is considered superior to the current times.

 

[HereNThere]

IMO, the "average" Yonko > "average" admiral, I think we have enough narrative that suggests this. Though, the level is very close. The admirals would give the Yonko a run for their money.

But what's "average" though? The very concept of Yonkou/Admirals in this series means that they are significantly above average and at the tippy top of the pile. Never mind the fact that there is only a handful of them to even form a consensus on what constitutes average. Doesn't really make sense to me to further categorize them as such when they already represent peak power as a whole.

The exceptions I see, are the "fleet admiral" materials like Akainu and Sengoku, who I consider above the "average" Yonko.
Akainu likely has conqueror's haki (and by extension advanced), considering his demeanor and will power.
Sengoku is also pretty much definitely an advanced conqueror's haki user. Prime Sengoku has hype on or above Yonkos, since Roger considered him a credible threat. But then again, he was a part of the old era (Roger era) which is considered superior to the current times.

How much further from Fleet Admiral is Admiral really, though? Sengoku, sure, we can give him some leeway as he's from Roger, WB, and Garp's gen and they seem to be cut from a different cloth. But how much further is Akainu from his peers really?

He and Aokiji fought for 10 days straight and it's implied that Akainu won by the skin of his teeth, even with his elemental advantage. Wouldn't that imply that Aokiji is basically Fleet Admiral worthy himself? And what about Kizaru? He was basically implied to be on their level as well Pre-Time skip, with all of them basically sharing similar feats and, of course, status. If he were to fight, I imagine the result would be the same, an extreme diff fight with the victor left in a precarious situation. He'd also be considered Fleet Admiral level, imo. That'd mean they'd all be above whatever constitutes "average" for the Yonkou.

Speaking of, who would be considered an "average" Yonkou? Big Mom is the usual go to when I see similar takes. But I can't agree there, because the narrative basically kept smacking us over the head with the fact that she's comparable to Kaido, who is/was basically considered the strongest living pirate. Do her feats suck? Unfortunately, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that Oda wanted us to view them as extremely close in strength. She's among Kaido's handful of the strongest that can use AdCoC.

Whew, sorry about that. The whole tier thing has gotten a bit ridiculous in some circles and this has just been building. I had to get it out.

TLDR; I disagree about there being "average" Yonkou tiers.

 

[grey matter]

But what's "average" though? The very concept of Yonkou/Admirals in this series means that they are significantly above average and at the tippy top of the pile. Never mind the fact that there is only a handful of them to even form a consensus on what constitutes average. Doesn't really make sense to me to further categorize them as such when they already represent peak power as a whole.



How much further from Fleet Admiral is Admiral really, though? Sengoku, sure, we can give him some leeway as he's from Roger, WB, and Garp's gen and they seem to be cut from a different cloth. But how much further is Akainu from his peers really?

He and Aokiji fought for 10 days straight and it's implied that Akainu won by the skin of his teeth, even with his elemental advantage. Wouldn't that imply that Aokiji is basically Fleet Admiral worthy himself? And what about Kizaru? He was basically implied to be on their level as well Pre-Time skip, with all of them basically sharing similar feats and, of course, status. If he were to fight, I imagine the result would be the same, an extreme diff fight with the victor left in a precarious situation. He'd also be considered Fleet Admiral level, imo. That'd mean they'd all be above whatever constitutes "average" for the Yonkou.

Speaking of, who would be considered an "average" Yonkou? Big Mom is the usual go to when I see similar takes. But I can't agree there, because the narrative basically kept smacking us over the head with the fact that she's comparable to Kaido, who is/was basically considered the strongest living pirate. Do her feats suck? Unfortunately, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that Oda wanted us to view them as extremely close in strength. She's among Kaido's handful of the strongest that can use AdCoC.

Whew, sorry about that. The whole tier thing has gotten a bit ridiculous in some circles and this has just been building. I had to get it out.

TLDR; I disagree about there being "average" Yonkou tiers.

By "average Yonko", I simply mean take the 6 Yonkos (4 OGs, with WB in meds. Luffy and BB) and average out their power level. Ignoring Bugy for obvious reasons.
By "average admiral", I mean take the average of 3 OG admirals and Greenbull/Fujitora (ignoring Sengoku).
If "average Yonko" comes out to be over 100, I'd say "average admiral" comes out to be like 95. That is what I mean when I say average yonko > average admiral.
But here, I'd say Akainu is over 100 and Aokiji is maybe a 98-100. There is some variation.

IMO, Akainu and Aokiji has powers which cancel out each other.
I don't think Akainu has major elemental advantage over Aokiji. When Ice melts, it becomes equivalent water. Plus, it's now reveled that admirals aren't susceptible to traditional weaknesses, even if this was an elemental advantage.
I mean, shouldn't the magma/heat storm in PH have overpowered the snow storm in PH? Yet, they were half and half.

I think matchups matter here. Akainu and Aokiji can keep fighting on for a long period of time, because they cancel out each other.
But IMO Akainu's "peak" is higher than Aokiji's. which is why I put Akainu on a pedestal. Akainu's attacks are more lethal and straight up offense, while Aokiji's more of an internal damage thing (freezing to your bone). Oda specifically hypes up Akainu multiple times, and states his DF has the highest offense.
To further make my point, replace Akainu by Aokiji. Do you see Aokiji taking out a chunk of WB's head and torso? I don't think so.

Anyway, out of the OG 3, IMO Akainu > Aokiji > Kizaru.
I don't think Kizaru has given the same "vibe" that Akainu and Aokiji has given. Though I very well may be wrong, and my perception is from Kizaru always being high lmao

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 9, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 9, 2022 ---

Speaking of, who would be considered an "average" Yonkou? Big Mom is the usual go to when I see similar takes. But I can't agree there, because the narrative basically kept smacking us over the head with the fact that she's comparable to Kaido, who is/was basically considered the strongest living pirate. Do her feats suck? Unfortunately, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that Oda wanted us to view them as extremely close in strength. She's among Kaido's handful of the strongest that can use AdCoC.

I think all Yonkos can give each other high-extreme diff.
Kaido and BM were merely sparring. Yes, it's portrayal for sure that they are somewhat relative, but we have to consider the context as well.

Amongst OG 4, I do certainly think she is the weakest, with the exception of WB in Marineford, who was off the meds and sick

This would be my Yonko list:
1. Old WB (in meds)
2/3. Kaido
3/2. Shanks
4. Luffy
5. Big Mom
6/7. Blackbeard (prior to Wano arc)
7/6. Old WB (out of meds)


I think this is a fair ranking. Who I put above BM should be below her, and why?
- Old WB (in meds) was unanimously regarded the strongest pirate when he was alive. Has "always on" (advanced) observation haki (to put in perspective, the cheap shot that scabbards landed on Kaido wouldn't work on WB even in his sleep). Conqueror's haki on par with Shanks, who is now revealed the strongest conqueror's haki user currently alive
- Kaido has brute strength and haki on par with BM, but has future sight and higher combat speed. Stated to be strongest creature, strongest pirate after WB died. 1v1 always bet on Kaido
- Shanks with the massive hype he's getting lately. Honestly, the only reason I put Kaido above him is due to the statements of him being strongest, 1v1 bet on Kaido etc. But my gut instinct is that Shanks > Kaido
- Luffy vs BM is a bit iffy I guess. Ultimately, I think future sight gives him the edge

I think except Luffy, we have solid reasoning as to why others are above BM. I am majorly considering portrayal here, because I agree with you that feats from Oda can be flawed and is a narrative tool for hype to readers.
Obviously Luffy's opponent will get a lot more showing than Law/Kid's opponent

 

[kkck]

I mean, clearly the shanks doing stuff movies is irrelevant. When has haki in any way worked like in that OP film? As far as I can tell it just doesn't... The anime always exaggerates ambient effects of haki... On top of that, the movie is not canon even if shank's skills are a thing to some capacity in the manga. Also worth noting, the OP anime has consistently garbage animation and it lowered the bar enough that whatever visual diarrhea OP movies assault viewers with passes for decent.

 

[Rmstorm]

By "average Yonko", I simply mean take the 6 Yonkos (4 OGs, with WB in meds. Luffy and BB) and average out their power level. Ignoring Bugy for obvious reasons.
By "average admiral", I mean take the average of 3 OG admirals and Greenbull/Fujitora (ignoring Sengoku).
If "average Yonko" comes out to be over 100, I'd say "average admiral" comes out to be like 95. That is what I mean when I say average yonko > average admiral.
But here, I'd say Akainu is over 100 and Aokiji is maybe a 98-100. There is some variation.

IMO, Akainu and Aokiji has powers which cancel out each other.
I don't think Akainu has major elemental advantage over Aokiji. When Ice melts, it becomes equivalent water. Plus, it's now reveled that admirals aren't susceptible to traditional weaknesses, even if this was an elemental advantage.
I mean, shouldn't the magma/heat storm in PH have overpowered the snow storm in PH? Yet, they were half and half.

I think matchups matter here. Akainu and Aokiji can keep fighting on for a long period of time, because they cancel out each other.
But IMO Akainu's "peak" is higher than Aokiji's. which is why I put Akainu on a pedestal. Akainu's attacks are more lethal and straight up offense, while Aokiji's more of an internal damage thing (freezing to your bone). Oda specifically hypes up Akainu multiple times, and states his DF has the highest offense.
To further make my point, replace Akainu by Aokiji. Do you see Aokiji taking out a chunk of WB's head and torso? I don't think so.

Anyway, out of the OG 3, IMO Akainu > Aokiji > Kizaru.
I don't think Kizaru has given the same "vibe" that Akainu and Aokiji has given. Though I very well may be wrong, and my perception is from Kizaru always being high lmao

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 9, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 9, 2022 ---

I think all Yonkos can give each other high-extreme diff.
Kaido and BM were merely sparring. Yes, it's portrayal for sure that they are somewhat relative, but we have to consider the context as well.

Amongst OG 4, I do certainly think she is the weakest, with the exception of WB in Marineford, who was off the meds and sick

This would be my Yonko list:
1. Old WB (in meds)
2/3. Kaido
3/2. Shanks
4. Luffy
5. Big Mom
6/7. Blackbeard (prior to Wano arc)
7/6. Old WB (out of meds)


I think this is a fair ranking. Who I put above BM should be below her, and why?
- Old WB (in meds) was unanimously regarded the strongest pirate when he was alive. Has "always on" (advanced) observation haki (to put in perspective, the cheap shot that scabbards landed on Kaido wouldn't work on WB even in his sleep). Conqueror's haki on par with Shanks, who is now revealed the strongest conqueror's haki user currently alive
- Kaido has brute strength and haki on par with BM, but has future sight and higher combat speed. Stated to be strongest creature, strongest pirate after WB died. 1v1 always bet on Kaido
- Shanks with the massive hype he's getting lately. Honestly, the only reason I put Kaido above him is due to the statements of him being strongest, 1v1 bet on Kaido etc. But my gut instinct is that Shanks > Kaido
- Luffy vs BM is a bit iffy I guess. Ultimately, I think future sight gives him the edge

I think except Luffy, we have solid reasoning as to why others are above BM. I am majorly considering portrayal here, because I agree with you that feats from Oda can be flawed and is a narrative tool for hype to readers.
Obviously Luffy's opponent will get a lot more showing than Law/Kid's opponent

Nope, Big mom has bad agility, speed, reflexes, does not have future sight,
Cannot use internal destruction haki and
is not good at using haki overall.

Luffy has stronger haki and is better at using Haki.

Luffy has A higher battle IQ

Luffy's Devil Fruit hard counters Big Mom's devil fruit

Luffy's Haki hard counters big Mom Haki and Devil Fruit

Luffy has better physical strength. G2 combined with Gear 3 gives him better physical strength than Hybrid Drunk Kaido. Only kaido haki was stronger as shown on 1037.

Luffy's Gear 5 is way above all Yonko

In Genrral Luffy is complete hard counter to her.

 

[catagon87]

But what's "average" though? The very concept of Yonkou/Admirals in this series means that they are significantly above average and at the tippy top of the pile. Never mind the fact that there is only a handful of them to even form a consensus on what constitutes average. Doesn't really make sense to me to further categorize them as such when they already represent peak power as a whole.



How much further from Fleet Admiral is Admiral really, though? Sengoku, sure, we can give him some leeway as he's from Roger, WB, and Garp's gen and they seem to be cut from a different cloth. But how much further is Akainu from his peers really?

He and Aokiji fought for 10 days straight and it's implied that Akainu won by the skin of his teeth, even with his elemental advantage. Wouldn't that imply that Aokiji is basically Fleet Admiral worthy himself? And what about Kizaru? He was basically implied to be on their level as well Pre-Time skip, with all of them basically sharing similar feats and, of course, status. If he were to fight, I imagine the result would be the same, an extreme diff fight with the victor left in a precarious situation. He'd also be considered Fleet Admiral level, imo. That'd mean they'd all be above whatever constitutes "average" for the Yonkou.

Speaking of, who would be considered an "average" Yonkou? Big Mom is the usual go to when I see similar takes. But I can't agree there, because the narrative basically kept smacking us over the head with the fact that she's comparable to Kaido, who is/was basically considered the strongest living pirate. Do her feats suck? Unfortunately, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that Oda wanted us to view them as extremely close in strength. She's among Kaido's handful of the strongest that can use AdCoC.

Whew, sorry about that. The whole tier thing has gotten a bit ridiculous in some circles and this has just been building. I had to get it out.

TLDR; I disagree about there being "average" Yonkou tiers.

Sometimes I think the way the manga is presented to us (chronologically) causes more discussion than is necessary. Shanks spars with Mihawk, and gets injured by Blackbeard but is supposedly some unparalleled haki God. Blackbeard gets low diffed by an ability-nullified, past-his-prime Whitebeard who had a heaven-splitting clash with Shanks (who got his scar from Blackbeard). Then we have Kaido saying Haki is the ultimate differentiator between upper level fighters, so even with toon-world we could say Luffy isn't close to the top yet.

I feel like Big Mom and Kaido were the unstoppable object and immovable wall situation. After watching Kaido fight, and watching Big Mom fight, I honestly think if Kaido and Big Mom went as all out as they did against the Supernova, then it's a win for Kaido. It really makes me feel like the reason they were at a stalemate was more sentimental and there's also the idea that neither of them are huge risk takers.

Big Mom sticks around Tottoland for the most part, taxing citizens with their life to make homies, and getting penetrated non-stop in the only way she knows how, to produce more Big Mom Pirate Psychopaths.

Kaido is presented to us as not risk-averse, but I think that's not necessarily true. He was always holding out for his New Onigashima plan. He only ventured out to have a go at Whitebeard and got intercepted by Shanks.

Shanks gave his arm for Luffy, is no stranger to danger being on Roger's crew, shows up at Marineford unannounced, and also seems to be waiting for the right moment.

All that said, if we're talking about diving into the very small nuance that is the difference in Yonko Strength - Big Mom and Kaido are both "impenetrable" (except Big Mom in the previously mentioned situations.. you know.. sex). However, Kaido has been shown to be a LOT better on his feet than her. There were multiple times Big Mom nearly lost or had problems fighting because she's clumsy as hell and has been thrown around by Jinbei, Robin, smashed by Franky's motorcycle, blasted off Onigashima by Kidd and Law, then sent to the ground where she made a giant crater. She gets hit by her own attacks (lightning, ala Nami), and occasionally (okay, frequently) loses 100% control of herself. The enraged Big Mom is bad news for bystanders, but it's probably a good thing for someone who can actually handle her, like Kaido.

OTOH Kaido has been shown to have future sight. He's been shown to be so fast that he can hit ACOO Gear 4 Luffy with his Kanabo. He's got similar durability to Big Mom, but his ability to fly is built into him and not any external creature - so he runs very little risk of being knocked into the ocean unless he's unconscious. He's been shown to dodge lightning (where Big Mom gets hit by her own lightning). He's been shown to, in general, have more durability (he was defeated over a much more drawn out period). His ultimate ability against Luffy was hot enough to melt rock (magma is melted rock). He's been shown to keep up with several fighters while piloting an entire island. Even after Luffy went G5 (the most 'ridiculous' power in the world), wielding ACOC, ACOO, Ryuo, and G4, Kaido managed to hold out against him for nearly ten more chapters after fighting the 9RS, worst generation, being Asura'd and scarred by Zoro, fighting ACOC Luffy, then fighting Yamato, then fighting ACOC Luffy, then fighting ACOC Luffy again now equipped with Gear 5.

I am not saying there should be different tiers of yonko, but there is a reason Kaido had the title "Strongest Creature in the World."

Big Mom is basically female Al Capone (I know, we have a literal Capone, but BM runs her crew like the mob). You don't wanna fuck with her. She's powerful. She can handle herself.

Kaido is like... if Mike Tyson and Jon Wick combined, and had 30,000 super-human troops under them, and infinite weapons.

Ignoring Bugy for obvious reasons.

Yeah. Not fair to include someone who's so clearly above the rest.

I mean, clearly the shanks doing stuff movies is irrelevant. When has haki in any way worked like in that OP film? As far as I can tell it just doesn't... The anime always exaggerates ambient effects of haki... On top of that, the movie is not canon even if shank's skills are a thing to some capacity in the manga. Also worth noting, the OP anime has consistently garbage animation and it lowered the bar enough that whatever visual diarrhea OP movies assault viewers with passes for decent.

Movie stuff is only cannon when it helps someones' point!

Luffy has better physical strength. G2 combined with Gear 3 gives him better physical strength than Hybrid Drunk Kaido. Only kaido haki was stronger as shown on 1037.

Nothing short of G5 compared to Kaido, at all, in strength.

 

[JStackz26]

I was just thinking about this recently.

Now, I'm a Sanji stan. If Sanji had CoC, I'd be more than fine with it, and, depending on the day, I'm all in on him having it. Even on those days, using Volume 100's cover is pretty flimsy reasoning, in my opinion. At most, it'd be a nice easter egg once it's all said it done, but it being the sole hint would be pretty weak. I personally prefer this route here:



And his unwillingness to do anything despite being in danger against Black Maria is less about him being helpless and more about him finally asking for help. It's more of paying off a character arc rather than setting up CoC.

Luffy having more than 2 CoC users on his crew aside from him seems like a potential possibility. Mainly because, in my opinion, it'd show how he is a King among Kings, being charismatic enough to even charm other Kings to be under him and be loyal to him. I mean, it doesn't even end in his crew. Katakuri, Hancock, Chin Jao, Shanks, and Rayleigh are all charmed with Luffy and have completely allied themselves to him. It's pretty ridiculous, but it makes sense for the chosen one.

And should have it, he would likely just be someone who could use the base form, not among the strongest handful to use the more advanced version.

Now, despite all of that, I'd be fine if he didn't have it. He isn't a lesser character for it and Oda is still going to have him be a formidable character without it, leaning into the whole Power of Science aspect which should be getting a bit more development pretty soon with Vegapunk, MADS, the SSG, and the Science Mink.

Also, you know what I feel like may happen. Sanji turning into Queen in the aspect of having all the Germa abilities. As Sanji said, he doesn't want to turn out like them. It may be exactly what happens to Sanji. Minus probably Yonji's ability since Yonji's ability is more in the hands. Sanji already has the lightning element in Ifrit. So the next one is probably Ichiji's sparking one. Ultimately since all 4 of them were born together, maybe what actually happened is not only that the drug delayed Sanji's growth but the delay in growth was also because Sanji possessed the other 3's abilities (of course the Yonji factor would be odd, and Franky technically already has that feature). Now while I said not Yonji, apparently part of Yonji's abilities is increased strength so maybe Sanji's kicks get more power behind them more than, although including, the speed weight thing (weight mentioned and weight in the next context can be muscle). He'll probably get everything but the Reiju poison, since Reiju wasn't born with them. That's probably also why Oda didn't show Queen with the ability.

And also the only reason Sanji isn't considered a Supernova is:
-It would have looked the Strawhats looked to overpowered even if the readers already expect them to be the strongest crew. It would take away the intrigue of the other members unless Oda had all of them with their number 2's as Supernova
-He needed to run the Germa story line which required Sanji to be an unknown for a while (hence his bounty posters)
In the larger scheme of things he's likely very much stronger than half of them or will be.

Another thing, as per the stuff about Sanji and Exoskeleton with Queen well it is probably very likely Oda would've just had Sanji unknowingly level up his armament to bypass Queen's ability. And I'm sure they'd be upset if Sanji had internal destruction Haki, which he should probably eventually have that with Luffy as well anyway. Since they are close contact fighters.

 

[Fox666]

Minus probably Yonji's ability since Yonji's ability is more in the hands. Sanji already has the lightning element in Ifrit. So the next one is probably Ichiji's sparking one.

I think Ifrit is already a combination of the 3 brothers abilities.

There's a spiraling explosion behind the lightning, which I think is Ichiji's sparking.

 

[albertwv]

WB (meds) = Kaido > Big Mom = Shanks > BB = G5 Luffy = Akainu > Aokiji = Kizaru > Issho = GB > Yamato/Marco = Kid/Law > Zolo > King/Katakuri > Queen/Smoothie/Jozu/Vista > Jack/Cracker/Doflamingo/Cat and Dog/Ace > Jimbei > WW/Perospero/Oven/Daifuku/Drake > Sasaki/Ulti/Page One

I placed Kaido and WB as the same level, with maybe Kaido having a slight edge only due to WB (meds) being older. I also place Kaido above BM because of Big Mom's poor performance compared to Kaido's during Onigashima. I do have BM equal to Shanks because I still can't properly gauge Shanks but I think Shanks Is below WB and Kaido since they were the ones with the World's titles. IMO, Shanks is stronger than BM but I have no way to prove it.

BB is the weakest among the old Yonko due to his inexperienced and careless behavior, also no Haki shown so far. People think he is weaker than Akainu due to running away from him, and that may be true but at that moment BB calculated his wins and losses if he fought Akainu. I think the BB's pirates could have killed Akainu but they would have lost more than half their crew and severely set BB back on his goals. Now, BB may be as strong as the admirals, due to being a Yonko AND gaining Aokiji as a subordinate. I'm pretty sure he would not have allowed Aokiji to join if he didn't think he would be able to beat his own subordinate. It would be a tough battle for BB though to fight any admiral, but would eventually win, except for Akainu.

Gear 5 Luffy is still inexperienced and I think he would lose to Kaido if they fought a true 1v1 right now. I don't think he could defeat Shanks still but I think he may be able to beat Big Mom IMO because I don't like BM. Also, I don't think G5 Luffy could defeat Akainu or the OG admirals, but definetly GB and Issho.

Yamato and Marco could be the same as Kid/Law but not above the admirals individually. I don't think it was fair for Kid and Law to receive the same bounty as Luffy, even if they "Defeated" Big Mom. First of, it was a team effort, at least Luffy solo'ed Kaido in the last 2-3 rounds. Second, Luffy had a higher bounty already due to his win over Katakuri and having such a huge fleet. So it made sense for him to get 3billion from 1.5b. But for Law and Kid who had $500m to $3billion for teaming together to defeat BM was unreasonable. I would have said maybe 2billion.

 

[Hibari Kyoya]

Ace > Jimbei

The manga literally shows them fighting to a stalemate/near-death?

 

[LadyVados]

Shanks uses swordsmanship exclusively in Red.

Shanks fanbois: He's not a swordsman I swear !

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2022 ---

I saw someone else point this out- Shanks can make others unable to see the future while Mihawk was able to make Luffy see the Future.

I think while Shanks has a special variant of AdCoC that can make people not see the future, Mihawk has a special variant of AdCoC (or maybe AdCoO) that can make others see the future that hard-counters Shanks' Haki and is why he is more powerful than him.

 

[grey matter]

The manga literally shows them fighting to a stalemate/near-death?

Yeah, when Ace was a rookie and just joined WB pirates.

He then grew a lot stronger since then.
Marineford Ace is closer to YC1 tier, while Jinbe probably around YC3 tier.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2022 ---

WB (meds) = Kaido > Big Mom = Shanks > BB = G5 Luffy = Akainu > Aokiji = Kizaru > Issho = GB > Yamato/Marco = Kid/Law > Zolo > King/Katakuri > Queen/Smoothie/Jozu/Vista > Jack/Cracker/Doflamingo/Cat and Dog/Ace > Jimbei > WW/Perospero/Oven/Daifuku/Drake > Sasaki/Ulti/Page One

I placed Kaido and WB as the same level, with maybe Kaido having a slight edge only due to WB (meds) being older. I also place Kaido above BM because of Big Mom's poor performance compared to Kaido's during Onigashima. I do have BM equal to Shanks because I still can't properly gauge Shanks but I think Shanks Is below WB and Kaido since they were the ones with the World's titles. IMO, Shanks is stronger than BM but I have no way to prove it.

BB is the weakest among the old Yonko due to his inexperienced and careless behavior, also no Haki shown so far. People think he is weaker than Akainu due to running away from him, and that may be true but at that moment BB calculated his wins and losses if he fought Akainu. I think the BB's pirates could have killed Akainu but they would have lost more than half their crew and severely set BB back on his goals. Now, BB may be as strong as the admirals, due to being a Yonko AND gaining Aokiji as a subordinate. I'm pretty sure he would not have allowed Aokiji to join if he didn't think he would be able to beat his own subordinate. It would be a tough battle for BB though to fight any admiral, but would eventually win, except for Akainu.

Gear 5 Luffy is still inexperienced and I think he would lose to Kaido if they fought a true 1v1 right now. I don't think he could defeat Shanks still but I think he may be able to beat Big Mom IMO because I don't like BM. Also, I don't think G5 Luffy could defeat Akainu or the OG admirals, but definetly GB and Issho.

Yamato and Marco could be the same as Kid/Law but not above the admirals individually. I don't think it was fair for Kid and Law to receive the same bounty as Luffy, even if they "Defeated" Big Mom. First of, it was a team effort, at least Luffy solo'ed Kaido in the last 2-3 rounds. Second, Luffy had a higher bounty already due to his win over Katakuri and having such a huge fleet. So it made sense for him to get 3billion from 1.5b. But for Law and Kid who had $500m to $3billion for teaming together to defeat BM was unreasonable. I would have said maybe 2billion.

I don't see how BM is beating G5 Luffy