One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

Shanks uses swordsmanship exclusively in Red.

Shanks fanbois: He's not a swordsman I swear !

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2022 ---

I saw someone else point this out- Shanks can make others unable to see the future while Mihawk was able to make Luffy see the Future.

I think while Shanks has a special variant of AdCoC that can make people not see the future, Mihawk has a special variant of AdCoC (or maybe AdCoO) that can make others see the future that hard-counters Shanks' Haki and is why he is more powerful than him.

That to me was just Luffy tapping into one of the forms of CoO for the first time. Every CoO user can either sense presences, hear "voices", see afar, or see a few instants into the future ("Future Sight" isn't unique, Koby probably has it, what's unique is seeing 8 full seconds into the future).

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2022 ---

But Shanks is a swordsman.

 

[LadyVados]

Since it seems Ray was at God Valley, he may have fought WB.

PK level Prime Ray looking more and more likely

 

[shailks]

I don't see how BM is beating G5 Luffy

Agreed Kaido>BM. This is why I never believed that Luffy is going back to WCI to beat BM. Now it’s a non factor anyway.

 

[The Prince of Darkness]

PK level Prime Ray looking more and more likely

No.
Prime Rayleigh was Yonko level at best and Admiral level at worst.
Of course, probably only people like WB and Roger could fight him back in the day

 

[LadyVados]

No.
Prime Rayleigh was Yonko level at best and Admiral level at worst.
Of course, probably only people like WB and Roger could fight him back in the day

If he fought WB and didn't lose I don't see how he can't be PK tier.

 

[Pirate Queen]

If Shanks special ability is to hard counter CoO and Mihawk had an ability to cancel that or has the ability to give others FS, it makes a very strong case for Mihawk>Shanks in their personal bouts for sure. I.e. Mihawk is handicapped but Shanks is given a free power up just so Mihawk could have a more exciting sword fight

Likewise, I was expecting Shanks to use haki more offensively more than axillary but that doesn't really sway any of my opinions. He didn't really fight in the movie unless the version I saw skipped the good parts

 

[catagon87]

He didn't really fight in the movie unless the version I saw skipped the good parts

I heard the movie is basically a musical with a few fights? Sounds like about 40% is supposedly skippable. Lol

 

[Pirate Queen]

I heard the movie is basically a musical with a few fights? Sounds like about 40% is supposedly skippable. Lol

It is, it really is. If I can find the link I will send it to you, but it was a very very crappy version

 

[grey matter]

It is, it really is. If I can find the link I will send it to you, but it was a very very crappy version

I'm just waiting for it to drop on kissanime or something lmao

 

[Pirate Queen]

I'm just waiting for it to drop on kissanime or something lmao

There is a full summary on worstgen if you are interested

 

[grey matter]

There is a full summary on worstgen if you are interested

Well, I'll read that then instead. Don't want to watch some nonsense about music for 10-15% of the actual entertaining material.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Well, I'll read that then instead. Don't want to watch some nonsense about music for 10-15% of the actual entertaining material.

Spoiler - One Piece Film "RED" Spoiler Summaries and Images Thread.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |One Piece film red Spoiler Summaries and Images| ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This...

worstgen.alwaysdata.net

There you go

 

[shailks]

If he fought WB and didn't lose I don't see how he can't be PK tier.

I think some context can help.

God valley incident happened 38 yrs ago.
Roger became PK 25yrs ago, just a year before he died.

That’s a gap of 13yrs where WB went from being a VC level to to forming his own guild and somewhat at par with Roger. We don’t know if he even had his devil fruit back at God valley, similar to Kaido, as he would still be a monster with or without it, just not comparable to Roger.

What we do know is that Xebec was crazy strong, and the first and greatest enemy of Roger (Sengoku’s words). Garp might have engaged BM or WB (depending on who was the stronger), leaving the other two to Rayleigh and Gaban.

The time lapse is significant enough for WB to have become a lot stronger over the period, just as it was for Kaido.

 

[Nie Li]

If he fought WB and didn't lose I don't see how he can't be PK tier.

I don't know if he's PK tier but I don't thing the difference is significant between Yonko and PK. To me, it's just people in the same overall tier.

He should be Yonko level in his prime going by comments and comparisons made in the series (and/or SBS/vivres).

 

[HereNThere]

By "average Yonko", I simply mean take the 6 Yonkos (4 OGs, with WB in meds. Luffy and BB) and average out their power level. Ignoring Bugy for obvious reasons.
By "average admiral", I mean take the average of 3 OG admirals and Greenbull/Fujitora (ignoring Sengoku).
If "average Yonko" comes out to be over 100, I'd say "average admiral" comes out to be like 95. That is what I mean when I say average yonko > average admiral.
But here, I'd say Akainu is over 100 and Aokiji is maybe a 98-100. There is some variation.

IMO, Akainu and Aokiji has powers which cancel out each other.
I don't think Akainu has major elemental advantage over Aokiji. When Ice melts, it becomes equivalent water. Plus, it's now reveled that admirals aren't susceptible to traditional weaknesses, even if this was an elemental advantage.
I mean, shouldn't the magma/heat storm in PH have overpowered the snow storm in PH? Yet, they were half and half.

I think matchups matter here. Akainu and Aokiji can keep fighting on for a long period of time, because they cancel out each other.
But IMO Akainu's "peak" is higher than Aokiji's. which is why I put Akainu on a pedestal. Akainu's attacks are more lethal and straight up offense, while Aokiji's more of an internal damage thing (freezing to your bone). Oda specifically hypes up Akainu multiple times, and states his DF has the highest offense.
To further make my point, replace Akainu by Aokiji. Do you see Aokiji taking out a chunk of WB's head and torso? I don't think so.

Anyway, out of the OG 3, IMO Akainu > Aokiji > Kizaru.
I don't think Kizaru has given the same "vibe" that Akainu and Aokiji has given. Though I very well may be wrong, and my perception is from Kizaru always being high lmao

Spoiler

Averaging out power levels in One Piece doesn't seem feasible, in my opinion. Especially when we don't really have any tangible numbers to do it by. There are levels, but we're at a point where people at the top are going to be muddled because they are all so strong. Same with the Admirals.

Akainu and Aokiji's powers shouldn't cancel out. If only for the fact that we saw Aokiji and Ace's powers cancel out, and we know that Akainu's DF is considered superior to Ace's. Admirals are susceptible to traditional weaknesses when enough power is put behind them. Green Bull wasn't burned by Raizo, but Momo's Boro Blast packed more power behind it to burn him. Aokiji is likely the same. Basic heat/fire attacks won't work, but if you are strong enough, it can likely affect him.

Both halves seem to be generating their own weather phenomena, so there's no telling how this would actually exist in real life. I do know that there should probably be a raging storm in the center of the island rather than just a little lake and some wind. That said, I think Aokiji would be fine walking through Akainu's portion of the island, but can't do the same facing the man himself. The source is stronger.

I can see Aokiji doing the same should he manage to land a hit. We know that he can freeze someone down to their core, so if he were to land an attack on WB's head or torso, it's likely it would've shattered, doing similar damage.

I think all Yonkos can give each other high-extreme diff.
Kaido and BM were merely sparring. Yes, it's portrayal for sure that they are somewhat relative, but we have to consider the context as well.

Amongst OG 4, I do certainly think she is the weakest, with the exception of WB in Marineford, who was off the meds and sick

I think this is a fair ranking. Who I put above BM should be below her, and why?
- Old WB (in meds) was unanimously regarded the strongest pirate when he was alive. Has "always on" (advanced) observation haki (to put in perspective, the cheap shot that scabbards landed on Kaido wouldn't work on WB even in his sleep). Conqueror's haki on par with Shanks, who is now revealed the strongest conqueror's haki user currently alive
- Kaido has brute strength and haki on par with BM, but has future sight and higher combat speed. Stated to be strongest creature, strongest pirate after WB died. 1v1 always bet on Kaido
- Shanks with the massive hype he's getting lately. Honestly, the only reason I put Kaido above him is due to the statements of him being strongest, 1v1 bet on Kaido etc. But my gut instinct is that Shanks > Kaido
- Luffy vs BM is a bit iffy I guess. Ultimately, I think future sight gives him the edge

I think except Luffy, we have solid reasoning as to why others are above BM. I am majorly considering portrayal here, because I agree with you that feats from Oda can be flawed and is a narrative tool for hype to readers.
Obviously Luffy's opponent will get a lot more showing than Law/Kid's opponent

Spoiler

They were sparring, but weren't using all of their abilities, with neither of them using the full extent of their DF powers (basic Napoleon doesn't add much).

If all of them can give one another high-extreme difficulty, to me, that means they are all in the same level and every fight is a 50/50 towards either combatant. I agree with that. So to call her the weakest member, when she has a decent shot at winning against her peers, doesn't make sense to me. Same with the Admirals. This is why I think things are much more blurry than tier list imply.

Old WB's "decay" wasn't well known and it's implied that even Mihawk knew that, at that point in time, he was basically on everyone's level now, not beyond it. Primebeard was a thing of the past, but no one knew it until then. I'd say she has a decent shot against him.

So, my thing with Kaido is that he has had way more panel time and focus to show off in comparison to Big Mom, as you mentioned. Especially with him being the main antagonist of the arc. Compared to what? Her three chapters of focus, Kaido had way more time to show out. Even during WCI, she couldn't get much of anything due to her not being able to really go all out, less she completely end the Strawhat's journey then and there. So yeah, Kaido is the more impressive of the two on paper, given what he's shown. The only thing I can argue is that Kaido didn't have future sight until he did (I remember people were even roasting him for not having it), so, imo, it's up in the air for Big Mom. Speed? Yeah, can't argue against that. Her main traits are her monstrous strength/durability and her DF versatility, which Oda constantly robbed her of to make her more manageable.

Can't speak on Shanks much, but yeah, he's getting major hype in the haki department.

Luffy vs BM would go the same as Luffy vs Kaido. Big Mom still had plenty of fight left in her before getting knocked of the island, so there's really no telling where her actual limit is. Gear 5 would also remove a good chunk of her repitoire due to rubberization, but her Bigger Mom ability to recover may be pretty troublesome.

Big Mom's feats suck, but I'm going to say she's intended to be portrayed as their equal.

Sometimes I think the way the manga is presented to us (chronologically) causes more discussion than is necessary. Shanks spars with Mihawk, and gets injured by Blackbeard but is supposedly some unparalleled haki God. Blackbeard gets low diffed by an ability-nullified, past-his-prime Whitebeard who had a heaven-splitting clash with Shanks (who got his scar from Blackbeard). Then we have Kaido saying Haki is the ultimate differentiator between upper level fighters, so even with toon-world we could say Luffy isn't close to the top yet.

I feel like Big Mom and Kaido were the unstoppable object and immovable wall situation. After watching Kaido fight, and watching Big Mom fight, I honestly think if Kaido and Big Mom went as all out as they did against the Supernova, then it's a win for Kaido. It really makes me feel like the reason they were at a stalemate was more sentimental and there's also the idea that neither of them are huge risk takers.

All that said, if we're talking about diving into the very small nuance that is the difference in Yonko Strength. However, Kaido has been shown to be a LOT better on his feet than her. There were multiple times Big Mom nearly lost or had problems fighting because she's clumsy as hell and has been thrown around by Jinbei, Robin, smashed by Franky's motorcycle, blasted off Onigashima by Kidd and Law, then sent to the ground where she made a giant crater. She gets hit by her own attacks (lightning, ala Nami), and occasionally (okay, frequently) loses 100% control of herself. The enraged Big Mom is bad news for bystanders, but it's probably a good thing for someone who can actually handle her, like Kaido.

There's no avoiding that. Most long running series are going to run into some discrepancies now and again.

I think they were at a stalemate because Oda wants us to really view them as comparable, despite Big Mom's later faux pas. In universe, she gets ton of respect, appropriate to her title, but she is often dunked on for reasons that seem to mainly revolve around the plot. She's always tripped up or something when she's legit about to murk a main character. And it just keeps happening because Oda puts her in positions where she's always about to kill someone. So despite "word of god" putting her at those levels, yeah, she's not going to look impressive when she's always being undercut in those ways.

Stuff like Bigger Mom and Hungry Mom are always shown to be major threats, but she can't kill because she'd threaten the status quo of the story. It's like if Freeza slipped on a Banana peel after every transformation to keep him from getting his kills in on Namek. Yeah, we are told he's a threat, but he's slipping on goddamn banana peels every time he turns around. How are we suppose to take him seriously?

Also, you know what I feel like may happen. Sanji turning into Queen in the aspect of having all the Germa abilities. As Sanji said, he doesn't want to turn out like them. It may be exactly what happens to Sanji. Minus probably Yonji's ability since Yonji's ability is more in the hands. Sanji already has the lightning element in Ifrit. So the next one is probably Ichiji's sparking one. Ultimately since all 4 of them were born together, maybe what actually happened is not only that the drug delayed Sanji's growth but the delay in growth was also because Sanji possessed the other 3's abilities (of course the Yonji factor would be odd, and Franky technically already has that feature). Now while I said not Yonji, apparently part of Yonji's abilities is increased strength so maybe Sanji's kicks get more power behind them more than, although including, the speed weight thing (weight mentioned and weight in the next context can be muscle). He'll probably get everything but the Reiju poison, since Reiju wasn't born with them. That's probably also why Oda didn't show Queen with the ability.

And also the only reason Sanji isn't considered a Supernova is:
-It would have looked the Strawhats looked to overpowered even if the readers already expect them to be the strongest crew. It would take away the intrigue of the other members unless Oda had all of them with their number 2's as Supernova
-He needed to run the Germa story line which required Sanji to be an unknown for a while (hence his bounty posters)
In the larger scheme of things he's likely very much stronger than half of them or will be.

Ifrit Jambe is just a higher level of flames. Sanji himself noted the upgrades he received and that Ifrit Jambe was hotter fire. Like with Zoro and Enma, Sanji's physical enchancements was just a gateway to further boost an ability he's always had, his ability to create flames from his "passion". With Oda confirming that Sanji speed is the cause for his ability to disappear, it is unlikely that he will be receiving any additional abilities from the Lineage Factor. That was the whole point of him destroying the raid suit. If he kept putting it on, sure, but I don't think that's going to be the case.

Sanji isn't considered a Supernova for the simple fact that some of the crews exploits were downplayed or hidden, such as their take down of Moriah. If the crew got their full credit for their actions, both Sanji and Robin would've likely been considered Supernova as well.

 

[catagon87]

I think some context can help.

God valley incident happened 38 yrs ago.
Roger became PK 25yrs ago, just a year before he died.

That’s a gap of 13yrs where WB went from being a VC level to to forming his own guild and somewhat at par with Roger. We don’t know if he even had his devil fruit back at God valley, similar to Kaido, as he would still be a monster with or without it, just not comparable to Roger.

What we do know is that Xebec was crazy strong, and the first and greatest enemy of Roger (Sengoku’s words). Garp might have engaged BM or WB (depending on who was the stronger), leaving the other two to Rayleigh and Gaban.

The time lapse is significant enough for WB to have become a lot stronger over the period, just as it was for Kaido.

I feel like Roger and Garp probably did a 2v1 against Rocks. That battle was probably equivalent to Luffy's battle against Kaido; A stronger opponent who Roger couldn't take alone. I'm really curious why Roger had any interest in Rocks, though. With Luffy we know he just falls into bullshit on a daily basis, but in the brief summary we saw with Oden on Roger's ship we didn't witness a ton of BS befall the crew. They pretty pointedly went for the poneglyphs, then Laugh Tale. Though I guess by that point there really wasn't anyone who could content with Roger other than Whitebeard or Garp.

Does anyone else feel like Xebec is going to be relevant again somehow? I know he's dead, and I hope it stays that way, but Oda introduced him for a reason I'd imagine. We can see Blackbeard named his ship Spear of Xebec (or something like that).

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2022 ---

There's no avoiding that. Most long running series are going to run into some discrepancies now and again.

I think they were at a stalemate because Oda wants us to really view them as comparable, despite Big Mom's later faux pas. In universe, she gets ton of respect, appropriate to her title, but she is often dunked on for reasons that seem to mainly revolve around the plot. She's always tripped up or something when she's legit about to murk a main character. And it just keeps happening because Oda puts her in positions where she's always about to kill someone. So despite "word of god" putting her at those levels, yeah, she's not going to look impressive when she's always being undercut in those ways.

Stuff like Bigger Mom and Hungry Mom are always shown to be major threats, but she can't kill because she'd threaten the status quo of the story. It's like if Freeza slipped on a Banana peel after every transformation to keep him from getting his kills in on Namek. Yeah, we are told he's a threat, but he's slipping on goddamn banana peels every time he turns around. How are we suppose to take him seriously?

That's kinda what I mean. I think Big Mom relied a lot on being born naturally strong, then subsequently getting one of the most powerful abilities early on in her life, so she never really had to train or anything like Luffy, Zoro, Ace, etc..

OTOH Kaido seems like he was battling it out in wars from a young age, escaping battleships, and really only ever knew battle / war / betrayal. Big Mom was betrayed by her parents but too stupid to see it (and young). Kaido was betrayed by his Kingdom and older / able to see it. I just feel like in general Kaido never showed any of Big Mom's clumsiness, his ability is comparable (or maybe even better) than her's, and his show of Haki is much more impressive. We never saw Big Mom show much, and even at the Wedding we saw her rely on Katakuri's ACOO. With Kaido we got text confirmation that he has ACOO (and ACOC).

The one thing I WILL say about Big Mom, is that if she really wants to, she can kill anyone at an extreme cost. I think that's where the risk aversion came in. When faced against Kidd and Law she only sacrificed a year of her life. Assuming she can grow more powerful for more of her lifespan, she could, theoretically, give up 10 years and defeat Kaido with that insane power boost. Though it's hard to say if even that would do Kaido in. Dude was ridiculous durable.

 

[shailks]

I feel like Roger and Garp probably did a 2v1 against Rocks.

It’s very possible. However, WB and Kaido couldn’t have been at their peak even if BM was close to hers. The battle won’t make sense. That’s the main point of my post. People tend to think just because these future yonkous and xebec lost to Roger and Garp, they would still lose if they were all at their peaks at the time which is wholly unfair to them.

We know Roger later came to respect WB as an equal, didn’t take BM headon for her poneglyph. So he didn’t underestimate them just because they were on the losing side 13yrs back.

On the Xebec part, I don’t know. There are so many legends and plots to cover that this might never come in the main story again. I for one am hoping we at least see more of Joyboy and his nakama and why he failed, more than those of Roger’s time.

 

[catagon87]

Spoiler - One Piece Film "RED" Spoiler Summaries and Images Thread.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |One Piece film red Spoiler Summaries and Images| ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This...

worstgen.alwaysdata.net

There you go

Wow. A whole crew described by the most important stat in the OP world: How they handle women. Maybe Sanji is in the wrong crew.

Roger Pirates: You can be a daddy here. We're a child-friendly ship! Treasure-babies welcome, too!

Shanks Pirates: Daddies welcome, but fuck the kids. Leave them at home. Bros before hoes.

Whitebeard: I'm your daddy now.

Marines: Got any strong kids we can buy?

Big Mom Pirates: Sperm donors wanted. No, you can't be a daddy.

Kaido: Join us, we'll respect your pronouns, just not your other rights!

Straw Hat Pirates: You're welcome, so long as you were either abandoned or abused by your parents, or orphaned.

 

[LadyVados]

Wow. A whole crew described by the most important stat in the OP world: How they handle women. Maybe Sanji is in the wrong crew.

Roger Pirates: You can be a daddy here. We're a child-friendly ship! Treasure-babies welcome, too!

Shanks Pirates: Daddies welcome, but fuck the kids. Leave them at home. Bros before hoes.

Whitebeard: I'm your daddy now.

Marines: Got any strong kids we can buy?

Big Mom Pirates: Sperm donors wanted. No, you can't be a daddy.

Kaido: Join us, we'll respect your pronouns, just not your other rights!

Straw Hat Pirates: You're welcome, so long as you were either abandoned or abused by your parents, or orphaned.

Thanks. I hate it.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2022 ---

My current top 30 (not including Imu because we don't know enough about him)-

1. Mihawk
2. Shanks
3. BB
4. Luffy
5. Dragon
6. Akainu
7. Aokiji
8. Beckman
9. Kizaru
10. Fujitora
11. Green Bull
12. Old Garp
13. Old Sengoku
14. Old Rayleigh
15. Zoro
16. Law
17. Yamato
18. Kidd
19. Sabo
20. Shilliew
21. King
22. Marco
23. Momousagi
24. Tokikake
25. Lucky Roo
26. Yasopp
27. Katakuri
28. Jozu
29. Vista
30. Sanji

I think it's a pretty reasonable list

 

[grey matter]

My current top 30 (not including Imu because we don't know enough about him)-

1. Mihawk
2. Shanks
3. BB
4. Luffy
5. Dragon
6. Akainu
7. Aokiji
8. Beckman
9. Kizaru
10. Fujitora
11. Green Bull
12. Old Garp
13. Old Sengoku
14. Old Rayleigh
15. Zoro
16. Law
17. Yamato
18. Kidd
19. Sabo
20. Shilliew
21. King
22. Marco
23. Momousagi
24. Tokikake
25. Lucky Roo
26. Yasopp
27. Katakuri
28. Jozu
29. Vista
30. Sanji

I think it's a pretty reasonable list

Where is Kaido and BM? You just assumed they died I suppose.......why lol?

Anyway, Kaido is no1.
BM lands below Luffy

Old Garp at the very least scales to Marineford WB, since they were around same level when they were at their primes. In fact he is stronger, since he isn't sick unlike WB. I'd say he lands just above current Luffy.

Old Sengoku > Kizaru, considering old Rayleigh who was retired and out of shape was matching Kizaru in combat, even tho he was lacking in stamina.
Unlike Rayleigh, Sengoku was active and in shape the whole time, and prime Sengoku was at least as strong as prime Rayleigh based on portrayal.

Akainu and Shanks are interchangeable. IMO he is right behind Kaido as no2
Aokiji lands one position above or below BM

Marco/Law > Kid > Zoro

Why is freaking Yassop above Katauri?