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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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I think you're both right and are just looking at the info with slightly different lenses. The top tier folk are all very close to each other with very little gap. They will all give each other high diff fights.
To me this is very similar to looking at sports in real life e.g. the top 25 outdoor men's mile time records are all within 5 seconds of each other (1st place is 3:43:13 while 25th place is 3:48:38). However, when you are at that level of athlete every millisecond counts which I think is @grey matter 's point. So when looking at top tiers like Admiral v Yonko v Fleet Admiral, these should all be in the same ball park.
Yep, that's what I was saying.
The yonkos and admirals may overall belong to the same "tier", but there can still be differences between them that would make the difference in a fight amongst each other. Whether it be matchups, or just overall power level.
Now where I see your point @HereNThere is unlike with real life sports we have no actual numbers for the OP fighters to do averages, spreads, probabilities etc. So knowing that top tiers are close to each other is the best we can really say. We can't argue with serious credibility that A > B when in the same tier since we don't have data to back it up, just our own interpretations.
So while its fair to create all these tiers and even come up with our own numbers e.g. if A is 100 then B is 95 etc, at the end of the day the only conclusion we can draw for the source material is that A & B are close to each other in strength. We can't really say who will win any given fight without having to rely on plot e.g. we can be sure Luffy will win a fight regardless of how strong we actually think he is within our tier lists.
Not saying I'm 100% going with feats. But when it comes to feats between Kaido and BM, I feel like I don't even have to say anything there. It's very self evident.
I personally give more weight to portrayal than feats. Like 2:1 ratio, just to give an idea.
Because Oda is inconsistent with feats IMO. Obviously Luffy's opponents is going to shine and have more fleshed out fight than Law/Kid's opponent.
But it is also portrayal that Luffy, without any doubt, gets the strongest villain in every single arc. This really tells us something.
Even when it comes to portrayal discounting the above, Kaido has the following hype:
- referred to as the strongest creature.
- referred to as the strongest pirate (post TS)
- 1v1 always bet on Kaido.
I'd say Kaido has better portrayal here as well, even though BM is portrayed to be strong enough to give Kaido a tough fight.
As for admirals vs Yonkos.
Yes, admirals and Yonkos are often mentioned along the same lines. There are many panels in the manga. Portrayal and manga panels suggest they are comparable forces in the world.
But again, don't we also have enough data suggesting that Yonkos are slightly above admirals, generally speaking?
The "strongest" titles are all given to pirates:
- strongest man
- strongest creature
- strongest swordsman (lets be real, Mihawk is the "Yonko" in Cross Guild)
This is portrayal.
There is also portrayal of admirals backing off from Yonkos. Specifically, from Shanks.
Greenbull freaked out from Shanks' conqueror's haki. And this was before he even realized it was from Shanks, Greenbull instinctively reacted to this strong power without even knowing it was Shanks, so we can't even really argue that he freaked out about Shanks AND RHP
What about Whitebeard vs Akainu?
Mind you, this was a Whitebeard off the meds. He is weaker than Whitebeard in meds, who is the one actually referred to as the strongest pirate/man. Oda makes a clear distinction between Whitebeard in meds and out of meds for days (i.e in Marineford).
Whitebeard extreme diff'd Akainu here.
Yes, Whitebeard would've succumbed to the injuries soon enough, But he definitely won that fight, WB would've killed Akainu if he didn't slide off the cliff.
Now, this doesn't mean all Yonkos are stronger than all admirals. I believe Akainu and maybe Aokiji are strong enough to take on BM, current Luffy and Blackbeard (pre Wano).
But it does really seem like the "average" Yonko is above "average" admiral. The higher end of Yonkos also tend to be above higher end of admirals. Don't you think this is a fair assessment based on portrayal as well as feats?
1- Without CoC.
2- That does not serve as a comparison without seeing Zoro get hit 20 times by an Emperor on Onigashima.
They were all suddenly buffed for this fight with no real explanation when compared both to previous arcs and to previously in this very arc. That's part of what I mean by "it was iffy".
--- Double Post Merged, Yesterday at 8:25 PM, Original Post Date: Yesterday at 8:20 PM ---
If we look back at the previous arc in which Law fought, he was physically below Doflamingo. If we look back inside this very arc, Law got injured fighting Hawkins.
Whatever he tanked on Onigashima without an equivalent comparison doesn't demonstrate Zoro was somehow excluded from the unnatural in-arc buffing they all got. With that out of the way, I'll leave the rest of my earlier post do the rest of the talking.
Yeah, generally agree there. The "good guys" just grew up strong without any real explanation.
It isn't even limited to Supernova and Sanji. Franky and Robin really has no business hanging around Tobiroppo tier either from what we knew before, but they did.
Though I wouldn't use "without conqueror's haki" as an argument for anything. It's just Oda being inconsistent IMO, with him wanting to thematically have Law/Kid vs BM be a devil fruit battle.
For another counter to this.
Zoro and Law got hit by thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido. Law pretty much tanked it (thunder bagua always has conqueror's haki). Zoro, even though he was already down for the count, didn't get KO'd by that attack either, demonstrating he also is up there in durability.
Possibly but they would've all died because they all presumed they be dead until Zoro stepped in. The thing is people making it seem he negated the attack. Naturally if he was there any longer he'd be pretty much dead. Whether it is the strongest attack we've seen is a whole other argument because it could literally not be.
I wonder if Law can bypass Barto’s barrier using room , he deffs can teleport him outta him but I wonder if he can straight up slice through it like butter
I wonder if Law can bypass Barto’s barrier using room , he deffs can teleport him outta him but I wonder if he can straight up slice through it like butter
This sounds like a case of the irresistible force paradox.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
However, perhaps Barto's barrier is superior? It didn't even budge with Elizabello's punch, a supposed yonko-tier attack, but Law couldn't cut or shambles the Yonkous with his DF.
I wonder if Law can bypass Barto’s barrier using room , he deffs can teleport him outta him but I wonder if he can straight up slice through it like butter
I wonder if Law can bypass Barto’s barrier using room , he deffs can teleport him outta him but I wonder if he can straight up slice through it like butter
Barto's Barrier can repel any and all physical attacks, no matter how strong. However, with the exception of individuals with superior haki and seastone, Law's fruit should be able to cut cleanly through it since his attacks aren't physical, but spatial.
Yep, that's what I was saying.
The yonkos and admirals may overall belong to the same "tier", but there can still be differences between them that would make the difference in a fight amongst each other. Whether it be matchups, or just overall power level.
Yep I think the upper tier people are all very close in ball park to each other. I'm currently waiting for Oda to break the ceiling he set with Roger/WB/Garp/Rocks by introducing Im as a fighter. Will be interesting to see how power levels are portrayed from here on out since Luffy has made it to Yonko/Admiral level fighter. This is usually when shonen's go crazy and all meaning of power level gets lost.
Not saying I'm 100% going with feats. But when it comes to feats between Kaido and BM, I feel like I don't even have to say anything there. It's very self evident.
I personally give more weight to portrayal than feats. Like 2:1 ratio, just to give an idea.
Because Oda is inconsistent with feats IMO. Obviously Luffy's opponents is going to shine and have more fleshed out fight than Law/Kid's opponent.
But it is also portrayal that Luffy, without any doubt, gets the strongest villain in every single arc. This really tells us something.
Even when it comes to portrayal discounting the above, Kaido has the following hype:
- referred to as the strongest creature.
- referred to as the strongest pirate (post TS)
- 1v1 always bet on Kaido.
I'd say Kaido has better portrayal here as well, even though BM is portrayed to be strong enough to give Kaido a tough fight.
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There is data but it is subjective in nature making it far less reliable. Yes Luffy does generally get the strongest opponent as their enemy for the arc. But we don't need data to tell us that. The more pertinent question to me is how much stronger is the strongest enemy compared to the second strongest, third strongest, etc? For example we don't really have data that isn't a subjective interpretation of what we see depicted to argue Kaido is decisively stronger than BM. You can say you rate Kaido 105 out of 100 and BM 100. You can have the break down of those numbers by things like strength, speed, durability, endurance, coc, etc. However, a second person could have very different numbers to you for the same character so the data becomes less reliable. Even you end up giving more weight to portrayal (which to me is the plot) than to the actual feats (which to me are mostly subjective data points). At the end of the day the plot/portrayal is more useful predictor of power level and outcomes than data points.
As for admirals vs Yonkos.
Yes, admirals and Yonkos are often mentioned along the same lines. There are many panels in the manga. Portrayal and manga panels suggest they are comparable forces in the world.
But again, don't we also have enough data suggesting that Yonkos are slightly above admirals, generally speaking?
The "strongest" titles are all given to pirates:
- strongest man
- strongest creature
- strongest swordsman (lets be real, Mihawk is the "Yonko" in Cross Guild)
This is portrayal.
There is also portrayal of admirals backing off from Yonkos. Specifically, from Shanks.
Greenbull freaked out from Shanks' conqueror's haki. And this was before he even realized it was from Shanks, Greenbull instinctively reacted to this strong power without even knowing it was Shanks, so we can't even really argue that he freaked out about Shanks AND RHP
What about Whitebeard vs Akainu?
Mind you, this was a Whitebeard off the meds. He is weaker than Whitebeard in meds, who is the one actually referred to as the strongest pirate/man. Oda makes a clear distinction between Whitebeard in meds and out of meds for days (i.e in Marineford).
Whitebeard extreme diff'd Akainu here.
Yes, Whitebeard would've succumbed to the injuries soon enough, But he definitely won that fight, WB would've killed Akainu if he didn't slide off the cliff.
Now, this doesn't mean all Yonkos are stronger than all admirals. I believe Akainu and maybe Aokiji are strong enough to take on BM, current Luffy and Blackbeard (pre Wano).
But it does really seem like the "average" Yonko is above "average" admiral. The higher end of Yonkos also tend to be above higher end of admirals. Don't you think this is a fair assessment based on portrayal as well as feats?
I do agree that Yonko have the edge on Admirals. I think we'll find the WG has stronger fighters lurking in the background that we don't know about yet that are going to be the final enemies the SHs have to defeat to free the world. I think Admirals will give any Yonko a difficult fight but will mostly lose on average since they don't so far seem to have that CoC edge (until a retcon or something aCoC is just an edge that is hard to overcome in my mind). For me this is all based on portrayal/plot of the Yonko we've seen so far compared to Admirals we've seen so far.
What I think is a difficult case to make is the same argument trying to just use feats/data and some logic like you made here
I think all Yonkos can give each other high-extreme diff.
Kaido and BM were merely sparring. Yes, it's portrayal for sure that they are somewhat relative, but we have to consider the context as well.
Amongst OG 4, I do certainly think she is the weakest, with the exception of WB in Marineford, who was off the meds and sick
I think this is a fair ranking. Who I put above BM should be below her, and why?
- Old WB (in meds) was unanimously regarded the strongest pirate when he was alive. Has "always on" (advanced) observation haki (to put in perspective, the cheap shot that scabbards landed on Kaido wouldn't work on WB even in his sleep). Conqueror's haki on par with Shanks, who is now revealed the strongest conqueror's haki user currently alive
- Kaido has brute strength and haki on par with BM, but has future sight and higher combat speed. Stated to be strongest creature, strongest pirate after WB died. 1v1 always bet on Kaido
- Shanks with the massive hype he's getting lately. Honestly, the only reason I put Kaido above him is due to the statements of him being strongest, 1v1 bet on Kaido etc. But my gut instinct is that Shanks > Kaido
- Luffy vs BM is a bit iffy I guess. Ultimately, I think future sight gives him the edge
I think except Luffy, we have solid reasoning as to why others are above BM. I am majorly considering portrayal here, because I agree with you that feats from Oda can be flawed and is a narrative tool for hype to readers.
Obviously Luffy's opponent will get a lot more showing than Law/Kid's opponent
For example if we say Old WB Off Meds is able to high diff Akainu (basing on what we saw in Marineford) then we are left with two unpleasant logical paths:
Either any mid level Yonko (assuming Old WB Off Meds is low tier Yonko) aka BM should be able to pull of similar feat. So that would leave us with the recently appointed Fleet Admiral (who is likely stronger than Old Sengoku) is weaker than a mid level Yonko, which makes Admirals non credible threats to Yonko, which is the opposite of the portrayals/plot.
On the other hand if you don't think BM could high diff Akainu then you're saying that Old WB Off Meds (the one who couldn't use CoC, got stabbed by Squardo, had heart attack mid fight, etc) is stronger than BM. That probably means Old WB On Meds can maybe even mid diff BM which starts countering the all Yonko are in similar tier argument since its no longer always a high diff fight.
I just think wIth the subjectivity of the data (feats) we have and the small sample size of fighters of this caliber, we're just better off having portrayal/plot arguments vs data ones.
I wonder if Law can bypass Barto’s barrier using room , he deffs can teleport him outta him but I wonder if he can straight up slice through it like butter
@grey matter i disagree I’m one of the few that believe all yonkos>adimrals. But I do believe that fleet Adrimal=Yonko akainu currently imo>marineford admiral akainu garp and yes sengoku and Kong imo can take on a yonko and/or might could possibly beat one
@grey matter i disagree I’m one of the few that believe all yonkos>adimrals. But I do believe that fleet Adrimal=Yonko akainu currently imo>marineford admiral akainu garp and yes sengoku and Kong imo can take on a yonko and/or might could possibly beat one
Why would akainu be any stronger , the fleet admiral position is legit based on ideology and decision , either akainu or aokiji would have been fine ( kizaru really isn’t the leadership type ) it’s more of what the powers that be , there’s really nothing like “fleet admiral level” in regards to the OG 3
There is data but it is subjective in nature making it far less reliable. Yes Luffy does generally get the strongest opponent as their enemy for the arc. But we don't need data to tell us that. The more pertinent question to me is how much stronger is the strongest enemy compared to the second strongest, third strongest, etc? For example we don't really have data that isn't a subjective interpretation of what we see depicted to argue Kaido is decisively stronger than BM. You can say you rate Kaido 105 out of 100 and BM 100. You can have the break down of those numbers by things like strength, speed, durability, endurance, coc, etc. However, a second person could have very different numbers to you for the same character so the data becomes less reliable. Even you end up giving more weight to portrayal (which to me is the plot) than to the actual feats (which to me are mostly subjective data points). At the end of the day the plot/portrayal is more useful predictor of power level and outcomes than data points.
What is subjective about Kaido having an outright superior portrayal to BM?
You agree Luffy always gets the strongest. Kaido has additional portrayals such as 1v1 bet on Kaido, being referred to as the strongest creature/pirate and so on.
I would generally not focus too much on feats. But Kaido also has future sight, something BM doesn't have. This would also contribute to tipping the scales,
What is subjective is the gap between them, I can agree on that.
Point being, we can disagree on the numbers. I may say it's Kaido 100 and BM 95, you may disagree with the numbers, that's perfectly fine. But what is undeniable is Kaido having both superior feats and superior portrayal. It would be one thing if it was just superior feats but same portrayal, but that isn't the case here really.
I do agree that Yonko have the edge on Admirals. I think we'll find the WG has stronger fighters lurking in the background that we don't know about yet that are going to be the final enemies the SHs have to defeat to free the world. I think Admirals will give any Yonko a difficult fight but will mostly lose on average since they don't so far seem to have that CoC edge (until a retcon or something aCoC is just an edge that is hard to overcome in my mind). For me this is all based on portrayal/plot of the Yonko we've seen so far compared to Admirals we've seen so far.
What I think is a difficult case to make is the same argument trying to just use feats/data and some logic like you made here
Yep, that's all I am saying. "Average" Yonko > "Average" admiral
The numbers themselves are subjective, it's fine to have disagreements there. Me saying 100 vs 95 is just my way of saying Yonkos will win, but it's an extreme diff
Yeah, I also believe that we will be seeing stronger hidden powerhouses in WG.
Imu is a sure thing.
I think Gorosei are also above admirals. One of them apparently has a supreme grade sword, and everyone who have them are at least Yonko tier (Roger, WB, Shanks, Mihawk). Plus, I don't think admirals and the entire marine/WG organization can be held together by Gorosei if they were some fodder figureheads. Their scars also suggest they are battle hardened veterans, probably fought back even 800 years ago and defeated the ancient kingdom,
For example if we say Old WB Off Meds is able to high diff Akainu (basing on what we saw in Marineford) then we are left with two unpleasant logical paths:
Either any mid level Yonko (assuming Old WB Off Meds is low tier Yonko) aka BM should be able to pull of similar feat. So that would leave us with the recently appointed Fleet Admiral (who is likely stronger than Old Sengoku) is weaker than a mid level Yonko, which makes Admirals non credible threats to Yonko, which is the opposite of the portrayals/plot.
On the other hand if you don't think BM could high diff Akainu then you're saying that Old WB Off Meds (the one who couldn't use CoC, got stabbed by Squardo, had heart attack mid fight, etc) is stronger than BM. That probably means Old WB On Meds can maybe even mid diff BM which starts countering the all Yonko are in similar tier argument since its no longer always a high diff fight.
I just think wIth the subjectivity of the data (feats) we have and the small sample size of fighters of this caliber, we're just better off having portrayal/plot arguments vs data ones.
This is something I struggle with a lot myself as well. If you have seen my rankings, Akainu's position is something I always struggle with, sometimes I put him alongside Kaido, sometimes I put him below BM. I myself flipflop on Akainu, though currently I am of the opinion that Akainu is moreso comparable to Kaido.
What isn't subjective here is that WB (off the meds) >= Akainu.
That was clearly the intent from Oda (to show an extreme diff fight where WB also gets KO'd in the end), as well as the straight up conclusive feats.
We will really have to see Akainu going all out, before being completely judging where both Akainu as well as WB (on meds as well as off meds) really stand.
If Akainu turns out to be an absolute boss, that will also elevate WB as well.
Yes, both WB in meds as well as WB off the meds.
It is very much possible that WB off the meds was stronger than BM.
There is something people miss out about WB. It wasn't that other Yonkos were comparable to him. It was that he let them share his era, and he could've become the king any time he wished to.
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To address these..........Let's talk about WB here.
Point 1:
Prime WB = Roger. Both are clearly at a different level from "Yonkos", considering both had Yonko level right hand men - in prime Rayleigh and Oden.
WB was most likely in his prime, when the concept of "Yonko" was introduced.
He was also stated to be very well capable of being PK if he chose to, multiple times in the series really. Also was considered the defacto PK, called king of the sea, strongest pirate.
Old WB (in meds) was also unanimously considered the strongest pirate and strongest man. The king of the seas.
He had conqueror's haki on par with Shanks', who is now confirmed the strongest conqueror's haki user alive, on a different level from both Kaido and BM. Old WB (in meds) also had "always on" (advanced) observation haki which allowed him to no diff a younger Ace (who was at least Jinbe tier back then) in his sleep.
Considering these, would it really an issue if old WB (in meds) is indeed considerably stronger than BM?
It wouldn't even cause any narrative issues, because WB never contested for any land and was minding his own business really.
Point 2:
Are the crews even comparable? How does WB's crew compare with Kaido's or BM's crew?
WB pirates in their peak had:
- Marco
- Ace
- Jozu
- Vista
- Thatch
- Blackbeard
- 10 other commanders implied to be at least Tobiroppo tiers
- many veteran allied captains.
Marco outright has considerable portrayal over King and Katakuri. Fought with Kizaru, matched an attack from angry Akainu. He is hyped in data books as someone who can give a challenge to admirals, which is portrayal. While we know what happened to King (full health or not, it's a bad look to get no diff'd)....
Marco also fought BM for almost the same duration Scabbards combined fought Kaido, and came out of the fight without any major injuries. After spending stamina on BM, he again spent stamina on healing up the entire floor. And then fought King + Queen for quite a considerable duration of time. And it wasn't even really like he was a punching bag relying on his DF heals, in fact he was the one mostly shown to be on the offense in what little of the offscreen fight we saw.
Jozu. Injured an admiral (though off guard). Tanked attack from Mihawk. I say he is definitely above Queen, and is in YC2 tier
Ace. Matched an attack from Aokiji. The novel also suggest he is incredibly strong, capable of fighting a non serious WB (in meds) for hours. Borderline YC1 tier IMO
Vista. Fought equally with a non serious Mihawk. Even if he's non serious, Mihawk is Mihawk, and Vista earned his praise. You aren't doing this if you aren't really strong. He's likely borderline YC1 tier
Thatch. He was portrayed to be at least stronger than a younger Ace, who stalemated Jinbe. YC3 tier at minimum.
Blackbeard (pre fruit). Strong enough to scar Shanks. Probably some commander level.
10 lower commanders.
While we don't know where they all exactly stand, they are at minimum Tobiroppo level. We saw this with Izo.
Izo defeated one of the two CP0 agents in a 1v2, each of them being strong enough to mid diff Drake, arguably the strongest Tobiroppo.
WB also had notable allied captains, who are respected veterans. Such as Whitey Bay, Oars Jr and Sqaurdo.
Considering all these......................is anyone gonna seriously argue that Kaido's or BM's crew is even remotely comparable to WB's?
WB crew blow them out the water!! It's not even close.
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What I am trying to say from the above points is. WB pirates (both the man and the crew) could very well be at another level from Beast Pirates/BMP. It fits both narratively, by portrayal and by feats.
Narratively, WB let the others share his spotlight because he couldn't care less.
By portrayal, WB was stated to have the strongest crew, the strongest pirate force in the world.
By feats, don't need much explanation
@grey matter i disagree I’m one of the few that believe all yonkos>adimrals. But I do believe that fleet Adrimal=Yonko akainu currently imo>marineford admiral akainu garp and yes sengoku and Kong imo can take on a yonko and/or might could possibly beat one
Akainu is in his 50s, he isn't growing any stronger.
Unless explicitly stated that he got stronger, current Akainu = Mrineford Akainu IMO.
Generally I agree however.
Though Fleet admirals and admirals may be in same tier, Fleet admirals tend to be stronger.
Akainu probably can take on BM, Blackbeard (pre Wano) and current Luffy.
Prime Sengoku is treated as a real threat even by Roger, he is likely above all Yonkos individually.
an admiral would be lucky to defeat law or kidd, espeically the new admirals maybe kizaru can get away with it. But no law and kidd are legitamite top tiers they defeated a yonko.
Movies aren't canon but I don't think anyone here believe that Shanks would lose to Kizaru, Fujitora or Ryokugyu. But if you are talking about 1 VS 3 there is no way.
Movies aren't canon but I don't think anyone here believe that Shanks would lose to Kizaru, Fujitora or Ryokugyu. But if you are talking about 1 VS 3 there is no way.
Law + Kidd arent equal to 1 yonko. Not even close. They just manged to throw her out if the ring using acme bombs & the fall from such a hieght since onigashima was fying is what buried her down for the sake of the plot.
People whi dont know acoc like law & kidd can never beat BM without a convinient set of circumstances aligning in their favor.
So, we're just going to ignore the RHP commanders then?? We are going to ignore Fujitora outright saying he doesn't want to risk civilians?
Mind you, they came for Uta, not for Shanks himself.
Anyway, it's now confirmed that current Law + Kid >= 1 Yonko
Unless you believe Law and Kid are admiral level, or that Shanks is so far ahead of BM.
Law + Kidd arent equal to 1 yonko. Not even close. They just manged to throw her out if the ring using acme bombs & the fall from such a hieght since onigashima was fying is what buried her down for the sake of the plot.
People whi dont know acoc like law & kidd can never beat BM without a convinient set of circumstances aligning in their favor.
BM even admits that Law and Kid pushed her beyond her limits that nobody had in decades. At this point you are arguing against the manga.
Advanced Conqueror's haki is evidently not the end all, be all. There are other means to compete at high level. Powerful DFs are clearly one way to do it.
Law and Kid broke her bones and destroyed her organs then, after she powered up.
We see that Law and Kid's attacks were consistently inflicting considerable damage on her. Her screaming in pain, coughing up blood, dodging and so on.
She was on her last legs. Law and Kid even said that "why be afraid of an old hag at her death bed?". Even the fodder Beast Pirates were saying that just before she fell off (something along the lines of "even at her last legs, she's still scary").
Ultimately. She used up a chunk of her lifespan, in powering herself up (1 year) and more for making her broken bones functional. She was utterly beaten up, and battered.
Even if she didn't fall down, everything until then was already an extreme diff. The best you could argue is that BM would've extreme diff'd Law + Kid.
Also, it wasn't bombs, the bomb exploded at Onigashima itself, we see Yamato defending against it and preventing it from lighting other bombs up.
It was the volcano that erupted, and who opened up the volcano? We even see in the drawing that both Kaido and BM are in the magma, towards the end. By that logic Kaido wasn't defeated by Luffy either, the volcano took him out.
Law + Kidd arent equal to 1 yonko. Not even close. They just manged to throw her out if the ring using acme bombs & the fall from such a hieght since onigashima was fying is what buried her down for the sake of the plot.
People whi dont know acoc like law & kidd can never beat BM without a convinient set of circumstances aligning in their favor.
That is not how they won. There was no set of convinient circumstances.
The acme bombs were a nonfactor and so was the height. Had they been fighting on ground level, it would have been even worse for Big Mom. The volcano Law dropped her in would have just been either double as deep or made in half the time it took Law (taking into account the time he had to tank her to stretch his sword further underground).
