One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[albertwv]

I did not further reply to albertvw as he is intellectually outmatched. His final argumentation, despite all the "sources" contains a huge leap and is not very logically thought through. Just like 90% of the postings here. The fact that he even boasted about his post at the end just doesn't feel right at all.

I gave all my reasonings, that are directly taken from the source material, which I now dig, most people have not read. This board is apparently full of anime-onlys that only come here to look for spoilers.
----

Luffy brought Magellan to his knees, who later fights all of Level 6 and survives. Zoro cut Kuma with Shishi Sonson. People shouldn't think that these attacks have no effect on Page One, clearly the Tobi Roppo can be injured without Haki. Everyone who pwned the Straw Hats preskip (Kuma, Sentomaru, Kizaru, Magellan) is way above Page One. Luffy and Zoro had higher bounties than him, too. They were labeled as the Worst Generation and people like Doflamingo believe these guys have a shot at Pirate King...Page One is their age, he is not part of the group, though.

Yeah but when I claim Enies Lobby Zoro could defeat Page One with his CoO based Asura slashes that can also cut through buildings like butter, people are like...

Diable Jambe is a modus activation like the Gears. We are only about to learn what it really is, but its clearly something triggered within Sanji.

Asura is a CoC related attack going by Kaido's words, meaning Zoro started unlocking his CoC here, which is also clearly a power-up.

"Intellectually outmatched" thank you for confirming that I am more intelligent than you. I already knew that since you're in high school.
I literally gave you chapter, page, and panel of how I deducted Page One > Pre TS Characters. It included deep analysis of the Page One vs Sanji, Sanji vs Vergo, Post TS Sanji vs Pacifista, and Pre Monster Trio + the rest of the Straw Hats vs One Pacifista.
If you can not be smart enough to figure it out after I laid it down for you, then that is your fault and stay in school.

You use opinion and get upset when others don't see it your way and when asked for proof you tell them to do the research themselves.
You stopped replying to me because you knew you could not win that argument and other people starting chiming in and agreeing with me about the ridiculous discussion of Page One < Pre TS Characters.
Even now people are wondering if what you are STILL Claiming is a joke or not.
@McNuss just take your L and move on.

Asura is CoC related during the rooftop battle and then Zolo shortly activated his ACoC, but in Enies Lobby unless Oda retcons it like the CP9 having Haki, there is no proof that at that time Zolo had CoC much less ACoC. Also friendly reminder, Pre TS Zolo used Ashura in his fight (joined by the rest of the Straw Hats) versus the Pacifista. It wasn't Zolo who bested the Pacifista alone, it was group effort. Page One would have one shotted the Pacifista.
Your argument is invalid and I ask you kindly to stop bringing it up for the sake of this discussion.

Side bar, I think Oda made a mistake on Lulusia Kingdom. In Ace's cover story, Moda the milk girl he helps is from Lulusia and Ace's BB search was in the Paradise. Ace traveled in Paradise in Lulusia Kingdom.
IN the introduction of the 4 Rev Commanders, Lulusia is somewhere near Kamabakka Kingdom, which is in the Paradise.
Then during the escort to Maryjoise, Lulusia royalty gets captured by some pirates that Captain Coby later rescues and meets Dressrosa royalty. I find it weird that the pirates who kidnapped Lulusia princess in Paradise I assume, would travel to the NW in a matter of short time and cross paths with Dressrosa ship headed to Maryjoise.
Then in the recent Chapters Sabo is hiding in Lulusia which is stated to be in the NW.
So somehow Lulusia Kingdom was placed in Paradise and moved to the NW.
Im sure its just an editorial mistake but I'm glad I wasn't the only one who brought it up.
I have so many questions about the travel and speed and method of how pirates travel from one part of the NW to Paradise so quickly or freely. If Fishman Island is the only way through without going through Maryjoise. Looking at the Revs and various pirates, suspiciously.
But whatever that is not a discussion for here.

 

[McNuss]

In chapter 904, Sabo can be seen talking to Morley from Momoiro Island, which places Lulusia Kingdom in Paradise:

In chapter 1060, Lulusia Kingdom is stated to be in the New World:

We also know it's in Paradise from Ace's Cover story. It is the kingdom next to G2, the milk maid, Moda, reappeared when Bello Betty saved the Kingdom from the Peachbeard Pirates. She was not shown during Imu's attack, which is suspiucious as her reappearance means Oda forgetting about the character is unlikely. She is most likely at G2 delivering milk for coffee loving Vice Admiral Comil.

If you dissect every scene of the manga, it will be inconsistent regarding pre-timeskip feats.

How did Luffy defeated Crocodile earlier in the series? Why Crocodile, Magellan and others didn't use Haki? Etc.

But Oda adressed these inconsistencies himself. You can call it retcon, it is retcon, but retcon means canon.

For Crocodile, we are later told Haki blooms during battle, and it was also implied that it can be lost or weaken, we had this with Whitebeard whose CoO and CoC failed him during the war, and with Chinjao, who said he's no longer the same after losing to Luffy. Despite having his drill head restored, he got weaker and not stronger, whereas Sai "bloomed" and thus surpasssed him.

Magellan you cannot say anything about Haki other than that after Amazon Lily arc, you are supposed to perceive all high tiers as Haki users, so Magellan too.

The Worst Generation are not pirates on the same age range (Capone is in his 40s), but who gained fame at the same time.

And I never said otherwise. They gained so much fame that they are perceived as top dogs in the One Piece World, something Page One (or Cavendish/Barto) never achieved.

Luffy can use Gear 2 for extended periods of time, Zoro has only used Asura for a few seconds.

Because Asura is an attack, and not a transformation. Its still a power-up.

If Rob Lucci survived fighting Luffy with Gear 2 for hours, how would Zoro deal with him?

Use his swords and cut him up. Zoro has at least the same stamina as Luffy, its implied to be even higher. The fight would revolve pretty similarly, meaning it could go either way. Lucci could also have won his fight against Luffy, as Luffy's strenght for the final clash came from Usopp cheering him up. No Usopp, no energy for the Jet Gatling.

If Lucci is 4000 Doriki, so is Luffy, and so should be Zoro - at least. Thriller Bark also makes it possible his actual Doriki is 4500. Which by the way does not make him stronger than the others. Kalifa with her 630 is also not really weaker than goofballs Fukurou and Kumadori, and unlike those she was also promoted to CP0 if we go by Film Red.

 

[Fox666]

We also know it's in Paradise from Ace's Cover story. It is the kingdom next to G2, the milk maid, Moda, reappeared when Bello Betty saved the Kingdom from the Peachbeard Pirates. She was not shown during Imu's attack, which is suspiucious as her reappearance means Oda forgetting about the character is unlikely. She is most likely at G2 delivering milk for coffee loving Vice Admiral Comil.

Either the island moved, or it's another plot-hole...

 

[McNuss]

I shortened my post. I will explain how Page One > Post TS Sanji > Pre TS Characters.

The way I rank Page One is by using logic and reasoning and examples from the manga.
In P1 vs Sanji with Raid Suit (we established that this is a power up for Sanji). But first let's establish a few things, I'm sure most of the readers here will agree that Punk Hazard Sanji is not the same as Wano Sanji much less Raid Suit Sanji. Sanji throughout the NW has progressively gotten stronger as an individual even if there are no apparent power ups mentioned like the Raid Suit.

This has no source, you start with headcanon.

Therefore a smart person can conclude that Raid Suit Sanji > Wano Sanji > Punk Hazard Sanji. Keep in mind this is important.

No, any sane reader knows Wano Sanji = PH Sanji.

The Sanji that was fighting Page One was stronger than the Sanji fighting Vergo.

Sources???? Lol

In Chapter 931, page 8, we see Sanji in his Raid Suit mentioning how durable and faster the suit is, granting him a stronger defense and faster speed.
In page 9, we see P1 attack Sanji, with Sanji blocking it with a kick (Sanji's skill) and send Sanji flying several blocks.
Sanji then comments that it hurt a bit, but the suit is durable, interpreting that it was thanks to the suit's defense that the attack by Page 1 did not hurt as much as it would. Then we have no other fight scenes and later on we see Sanji being fine (days later). We never get an actual conclusion not even by mention.

...--->

But I would conclude that Raid Suit Sanji defeated P1 with somewhat mid difficulty.

Sources???Lol

And Im sure most readers would agree.

"If I don't have arguments, lets use the audience joker." I think most readers believe Raid Suit Sanji low diffed Page One, because Sanji is popular and the Raid Suit can also tank King.

From that I can go back and say since Raid Suit Sanji > Wano Sanji > PH Sanji then Page 1 > PH Sanji.

Okay but you haven't even explained this, and wtf does this part even mean:

PH Sanji then Page 1 > PH Sanji.

Weird gibberish.

Now Vergo vs PH Sanji, one of the most heated debates. I argue Vergo > Sanji, chapter 681.
Chp. 681, pg 17, Vergo kicks Sanji and Sanji blocks with his leg. In this page it is important to note that Sanji's leg bone was cracking from blocking Vergo's kick and Sanji expresses through his face that it really hurt him. Then they clash with their legs a few more times.
Before this panel, Sanji had kicked and injured Vergo twice, stating that Vergo was like a mass of iron.
We have no idea if Vergo or Sanji used CoA in their attacks but since we see no coating, I can assume Vergo did NOT use CoA in his battle with Sanji, unlike his battle with Smoker and Law.

In the next chapter 682, page 5, after Vergo left to find Law, we see Sanji suffer from the aftershock of the fight in his leg. Sanji himself states that if the fight would have continued on it would have been.... this implies it would have gone bad for Sanji and maybe even worse condition for his leg. I think Sanji admitted to himself that Vergo was stronger.
So I can deduce that Vergo > PH Sanji.

Yup.

Ultimately leading to Raid Suit Sanji > Page One > Wano Sanji >= Vergo > Punk Hazard Sanji.

What??? HOW??? You never ever explain Page One > Vergo. This is why this entire post is pointless bonkers. Your sources don't fuel anything. You showcase that you cannot keep up the argumentation.

One last thing. If you continuing claiming that P1 is weaker than Pre Timeskip Luffy, Zolo, Pre TS Lucci, etc. then by association you are claiming that Vergo and Punk Hazard Sanji are weaker than all those Pre Time skip characters and it destroys the whole power level scaling and the so called world building you keep mentioning. I refuse to believe that Pre TS Zolo or Lucci can defeat a Post TS Sanji.

I never said they are that. You didn't read properly and its your own jump that puts Page One above Vergo. Vergo is stronger.

Post TS Sanji could one shot a Pacifista while Pre TS Zolo could NOT one shot it and had to combine his strongest attack Ashura with Sanji's Diable Jambe and Luffy's Gear 3 punch to finish off the Pacifista, AFTER the Pacifista had fought the entire SH crew, chapter 510 page 18.
Post TS Sanji > Pacifista > Pre TS Luffy > Pre TS Lucci > Pre TS Zolo with Ashura or whatever.

They freak out thinking its Kuma, but once Usopp (!!!) figured out the weakness, the Pacifista went down rather quickly. No doubt Luffy, Zoro and Sanji would have defeated their next Pacifista opponent with only moderate difficulties. G2 attacks or Flying Slashes against the head while it charges a laser should prove highly effective. In theory, Usopp should be capapble of high diffing one with hit and run.

No way the three strongest Straw Hats at that time are below the random wacko captains like Pavlik, Elmy, etc. These guys are WBs equivalent of Gifter Headliners or the weaker Charlottes from Lola to Saint Marc or something, but not 50 Ovens lol.

You see @McNuss, that is how you defend and support your claims, with factual reasoning and supportive evidence from credible sources. No head cannon or imagination or opinions.
Sorry to all for the long post but somebody had to prove McNuss how wrong he is with evidence.

The thing, thanks to the slight at the end, the entire post becomes pretty embarassing for you.

 

[Franckie]

Power levels are fluid in this series for a host of reasons: power inflation, match-ups, etc. What is "true" today may not be "true" tomorrow. An example is Aokjiji. Aokiji, originally, was the strongest Admiral. The wording in the "One Piece Yellow Grand Elements" is a little different than what is said in the manga. In the manga it says 戦力 (war potential) and in "One Piece Yellow Grand Elements" it says 戦闘力 (fighting strength). Although they both mean about the same thing, so the point is moot. So, yeah according to the "One Piece Yellow Grand Elements" his fighting strength over the other two Admirals. It does cite that his fighting strength is the highest because he is a Logia fruit user. But Aokiji being the strongest Admiral was no longer the case after Kizaru's debut.

There's also a difference between a person's absolute power level vs. their effective power level. A good example is Marco, whose flight + regen combo make him one of the hardest fighters to put down in this series, but his damage output isn't as great compared to other high-tier fighters.

People in this thread are placing too much emphasis on power levels. Tier assessments are probably the better way of ranking characters.

Let’s discuss the Surgeon of Death. I wouldn’t dare Rank him outside of YC1+…but there’s a big issue with his characters portryal….All of Law’s Major feats are created from openings made from another character….

Just how effective is Law really against someone in his Tier or higher when 1 vs 1. A lot of his techniques have only been pulled off because there was someone else there….Takes???

Law defeated Smoker, Vergo, nearly killed Doflamingo, and played a pivotal role in defeating Big Mom. I don't think there have been any major issues with his portrayal.

 

[albertwv]

This has no source, you start with headcanon.

No, any sane reader knows Wano Sanji = PH Sanji.


Sources???? Lol


...--->

Sources???Lol

"If I don't have arguments, lets use the audience joker." I think most readers believe Raid Suit Sanji low diffed Page One, because Sanji is popular and the Raid Suit can also tank King.

Okay but you haven't even explained this, and wtf does this part even mean:

PH Sanji then Page 1 > PH Sanji.

Weird gibberish.

Yup.

What??? HOW??? You never ever explain Page One > Vergo. This is why this entire post is pointless bonkers. Your sources don't fuel anything. You showcase that you cannot keep up the argumentation.

I never said they are that. You didn't read properly and its your own jump that puts Page One above Vergo. Vergo is stronger.

They freak out thinking its Kuma, but once Usopp (!!!) figured out the weakness, the Pacifista went down rather quickly. No doubt Luffy, Zoro and Sanji would have defeated their next Pacifista opponent with only moderate difficulties. G2 attacks or Flying Slashes against the head while it charges a laser should prove highly effective. In theory, Usopp should be capapble of high diffing one with hit and run.

No way the three strongest Straw Hats at that time are below the random wacko captains like Pavlik, Elmy, etc. These guys are WBs equivalent of Gifter Headliners or the weaker Charlottes from Lola to Saint Marc or something, but not 50 Ovens lol.


The thing, thanks to the slight at the end, the entire post becomes pretty embarassing for you.

Literally can somebody please just back me up and explain to this guy/girl how deeply misconnected they are with this argument.
Can we ban the Pre TS Luffy/Zolo > Page One discussion? @McNuss literally has no evidence I have shown many sources debunking their claim.
I literally cannot make them open their eyes and see the truth, so if Admin can somehow ban this discussion or if somebody else can jump in and explain to McNuss how wrong they are.

I have shown every possible source to outline that Page ONE > Pre TS Characters, through evidence and analysis of various fights and chapters. McNuss has just used his imagination to counter that. I guess it is my fault for falling for a highschooler's taunts and giving in instead of ignoring it.

 

[grey matter]

@McNuss

Let me try to understand.

I think your argument against Page One basically boils down to Oda being inconsistent with pre TS power levels, like he was for Magellan, Crocodile, Kuma, Ace etc. Because narratively that makes more sense for you?

It is possible.
But we shouldn't be using that as an argument until proven otherwise.

We acknowledge that Crocodile is stronger than in Alabasta, because Oda retconned him on screen.

As things are standing now, there is no getting around the feats of:
Page One > base Sanji (post WCI) > Sanji (immediately post TS) >> Pacifista ~ pre TS Luffy

 

[XXGenesis]

Law defeated Smoker, Vergo, nearly killed Doflamingo, and played a pivotal role in defeating Big Mom. I don't think there have been any major issues with his portrayal.

Smoker is Trash……An oversimplification but Smoker isn’t in Law’s tier. Makes sense how Law low diff him.

Vergo pushed Law to high diff….

Nearly killed Doflamingo….? Did you read my post at all? You couldn’t have if you mentioning this feat that he did not achieved on his own accord…Doflamingo maimed Law real quick 1 vs 1.

Again Law’s role vs Big Mom was capitalizing and following up Kidd’s attacks on Big Mom…1 vs 1 Law doesn’t have the showings to pull off his best techniques.

 

[Nie Li]

It saddens me that Smoker gets called trash and I can't really argue against it with his current feats.

I really hope Smoker has gotten somewhat stronger this time, since he'll for sure appear in the current arc. I always hoped he would become an admiral even if by the epilogue, just form how much I like him as a character.



Also and unrelated, mark this purely as a theory I just thought earlier today:

Spoiler: Bogard Yonko-level at his prime.

Reasoning: The man has been besides Garp all his life, he was already there as, apparently, his right-hand man, when Garp teamed with Roger and fought Xebec but has chosen to stay loyal to him all the way up to Water 7, always besides Garp and being an exceptionally strong swordsman.
This makes it likely he was the one to engage Roger's right-hand man, coincidentally another swordsman, when Garp engaged Roger in the past.

So I believe this is another case of Rayleigh, Beckman and Zoro just being more loyal than ambitious despite their strengths and potentials being through the roof.

I just hope Oda will give Bogard a chance to prove whether I'm right or wrong and that Bogard won't just disappear, forgotten forever without ever showing off a single feat.

 

[grey matter]

It saddens me that Smoker gets called trash and I can't really argue against it with his current feats.

I really hope Smoker has gotten somewhat stronger this time, since he'll for sure appear in the current arc. I always hoped he would become an admiral even if by the epilogue, just form how much I like him as a character.



Also and unrelated, mark this purely as a theory I just thought earlier today:

Spoiler: Bogard Yonko-level at his prime.

Reasoning: The man has been besides Garp all his life, he was already there as, apparently, his right-hand man, when Garp teamed with Roger and fought Xebec but has chosen to stay loyal to him all the way up to Water 7, always besides Garp and being an exceptionally strong swordsman.
This makes it likely he was the one to engage Roger's right-hand man, coincidentally another swordsman, when Garp engaged Roger in the past.

So I believe this is another case of Rayleigh, Beckman and Zoro just being more loyal than ambitious despite their strengths and potentials being through the roof.

I just hope Oda will give Bogard a chance to prove whether I'm right or wrong and that Bogard won't just disappear, forgotten forever without ever showing off a single feat.

Smoker had great potential. I had great hopes for him.

But he's been completely humiliated in PH. The dude has become an L lord lmao, Oda buried him. I don't think he can ever recover from this.

I felt like the same happened now to Coby too, but at least Oda didn't show him losing. Him dodging all of Boa's attack also (I think he did) means something I suppose.
Still, he has no wins at all in the entire series. Zero!

Also. Who TF is Bogard lol?

 

[Nie Li]

Smoker had great potential. I had great hopes for him.

But he's been completely humiliated in PH. The dude has become an L lord lmao, Oda buried him. I don't think he can ever recover from this.

I felt like the same happened now to Coby too, but at least Oda didn't show him losing. Him dodging all of Boa's attack also (I think he did) means something I suppose.
Still, he has no wins at all in the entire series. Zero!

I'm hoping this arc shines a better light on them both. It's really the last chance to redeem themselves before the endgame.

Also. Who TF is Bogard lol?

A guy who still hasn't got a single line of dialogue but is always right behind Garp. You might remember him from Koby's cover story.

Spoiler

 

[Crimson Ice]

Smoker is Trash……An oversimplification but Smoker isn’t in Law’s tier. Makes sense how Law low diff him.

Vergo pushed Law to high diff….

Nearly killed Doflamingo….? Did you read my post at all? You couldn’t have if you mentioning this feat that he did not achieved on his own accord…Doflamingo maimed Law real quick 1 vs 1.

Again Law’s role vs Big Mom was capitalizing and following up Kidd’s attacks on Big Mom…1 vs 1 Law doesn’t have the showings to pull off his best techniques.

Law one shotted Vergo when he got his heart back. Saying that Vergo pushed him to high-dif in order to downplay him is being disingenuous.

Law vs Big Mam when Kid was being deadweight was the same as Kid vs Big Mam; neither party got the upper hand on the other.

 

[albertwv]

Law one shotted Vergo when he got his heart back. Saying that Vergo pushed him to high-dif in order to downplay him is being disingenuous.

Law vs Big Mam when Kid was being deadweight was the same as Kid vs Big Mam; neither party got the upper hand on the other.

So although Law defeated Vergo at the end with that Mountain Slash. I still think Vergo is stronger than Law and could defeat him, had he not faced that slash. Vergo was decimating Law even without having to use Law's heart as leverage. Law was not on Vergo's level, just like Law was not on Doffy's or Big Mom's level ,but thanks to his tricky DF, Law wins, except against Doffy.
Actually I think Doffy is the only character that faces Law full on and outmaneuvers his DF.

People here confuse power level with winning a fight/round. Both concepts are not the same. The strongest/better fighter doesn't always win the fight.
Im one of the few that still believe Kaido>G5 Luffy.
Let's face it 90% of Luffy's final villain fights had some luck (plot) in order for Luffy to win.

Luffy vs Croc - Lost 2 rounds, both of those he was saved by sheer luck. In 3rd round the poison somehow didn't kill him and he used Nakama (kinda) power to finish off Crocodile.
Luffy vs Enel - rubber body, although Luffy is physically stronger than Enel at that time, if it wasn't for the Rubber DF, Luffy would have lost
Luffy vs Lucci - He had lost until Usopp encouraged him to get up.
Luffy vs Moria - he won fair and square
Luffy vs Doffy - Law helped and the fact that he was able to outrun (with the help of Gladiators) Doffy while his haki was out
Luffy vs Kata - he ran away from Kata, was physically outmatched, Kata self-injured himself to level the playing field, and finally Kata gave up
Luffy vs Kaido - Kaido had fought strong opponents continuously, Kaido won 3 rounds and Luffy had to restart his heart to win, ultimately Kaido like a dumbs decided to take the last hit head on even though he was on the disadvantaged being on the low ground facing up towards Luffy's giant fist. Had Kaido decided to dodge all the hits from his first fight and on, he would not have taken as much damage or fatigue in his last fight with Luffy

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think the problem with a lot of the arguing over P1 is people are creating a single power level hierarchy (each of us has slightly different tiers & rankings) that is mixing up characters chronologically e.g. including Current Luffy, Rooftop Luffy w/aCoA, Dressrossa Luffy, etc.

One thing is pretty clear - Oda has not been consistent with power levels throughout the entire story. Since Oda is not consistent, particularly when comparing Pre-TS and Post-TS, any power level tier list we create that includes characters from both eras will end up containing the same inconsistencies.

In the case of the argument around P1 vs Pre-TS characters like Luffy, both arguments make sense:

• If you want narrative consistency between both Pre-TS & Post-TS then all the retconning that Oda is applying to older characters a la Crocodile, CP9 etc impacts Pre-TS Luffy's power level too. For example one can make the case that retconned Pre-TS Crocodile > P1. And Pre-TS Luffy beat Crocodile without using gears so Pre-TS Luffy (w/gears) > P1.
• If you aren't going for narrative consistency and ignore retcons of older characters you end up with a different result. Pre-TS Luffy (w/gears) is relative to a Pacifista. P1 is relative to a start of Wano Sanji. Start of Post-TS New World had Sanji >>> Pacifista. By this logic one can argue that P1= Sanji (start of PS-New World) >>> Pacifista = Pre-TS Luffy (w/gears).

At this point there is no sensible way to create a consistent power leveling using all characters across the entire OP story. Oda himself made the characters inconsistent linearly in time. Best way forward in my mind is we'd have to create two different lists, one for PreTS and one for PostTS.

The only exception that I think could still make sense is if comparing only a single version of a given character (preferably their peak) e.g. G5 Luffy, Wano Kaido, Flashback WB, Flashback Roger etc.

 

[grey matter]

Law one shotted Vergo when he got his heart back. Saying that Vergo pushed him to high-dif in order to downplay him is being disingenuous.

Law vs Big Mam when Kid was being deadweight was the same as Kid vs Big Mam; neither party got the upper hand on the other.

I agree moreso with what @albertwv is saying here.

Vergo wasn't really using his heart as a leverage for the most part. Not saying it didn't happen at all, but that he was overwhelming even without using them.

The final "one shot" was more of a result of overconfidence (CIS) from Vergo.
He was so confident in his armament haki, that he decide to run straight up with the intention of tanking.

I think Law would win, but in a high-extreme diff. If Vergo actually chose to engage in proper CQC fight.

At this point there is no sensible way to create a consistent power leveling using all characters across the entire OP story. Oda himself made the characters inconsistent linearly in time. Best way forward in my mind is we'd have to create two different lists, one for PreTS and one for PostTS.

Definitely this.
Oda completely overhauled the powerscaling system post TS by developing haki.

As Crocodile was retconned, I very well expect Enel and Lucci to be retconned as well.
Enel especially was hyped by Oda, said he would be having a bounty of 500 million, and this was before the whole bounty inflation and when Ace had just 550 million inspite of being at least a mid commander level fighter.
Lucci very well might have grown stronger like Luffy and co did, so there is that.....

Heck, I think Doflamingo would magically be a lot stronger if he ever broke out of prison lol. Oda does these kind of things.

I'm hoping this arc shines a better light on them both. It's really the last chance to redeem themselves before the endgame.

I hope no hopes really.

Oda had 20+ years to give Coby a singular win in the series. But nah. Introduced in chapter 1, STILL HAS NO WINS!!

A guy who still hasn't got a single line of dialogue but is always right behind Garp. You might remember him from Koby's cover story.

Spoiler

Ahh, I see.
The detective dude who was training Coby. First time I'm hearing of his name lol.

Yeah, I used to think he was some big shot back in the days. Still kinda do, but since Oda doesn't even want to show his rank, I don't know what to make of him.

Maybe the God Valley incident can shine some light on him, but he seems like he's 50 years max, so timelines probably don't add up well.

 

[Franckie]

Smoker is Trash……An oversimplification but Smoker isn’t in Law’s tier. Makes sense how Law low diff him.

Vergo pushed Law to high diff….

Nearly killed Doflamingo….? Did you read my post at all? You couldn’t have if you mentioning this feat that he did not achieved on his own accord…Doflamingo maimed Law real quick 1 vs 1.

Again Law’s role vs Big Mom was capitalizing and following up Kidd’s attacks on Big Mom…1 vs 1 Law doesn’t have the showings to pull off his best techniques.

What exactly are you basing your standards off of? Long range combat? Close quarters combat? Ability to contribute toward group fights? Law has enough feats to place him as high-tier, possibly top-tier.

For the record, I did read your post. I think the root of the issue is that you come across as too rigid in your assessments of characters' strengths, like how your downplaying Smoker and Vergo. Power levels are fluid in this series, and while you can gauge a character's absolute power level, their effective power level is far more important. Depending on the situation, someone like Perona is far more invaluable than Law.

 

[LaGOAT]

@Fox666 what make u think zoro and sanji is equal just curious?

actually never mind people are debunked ur Argument lol

 

[albertwv]

I don't like the retconning Oda has been doing.\, but since he has created such a huge story and decided to recycle characters from the past then he has to accommodate them somehow into the storyline. Ever since after Wano everybody has gotten such a huge bounty. Crocodile does not deserve such a huge bounty.
Basically Oda did what Toriyama did with Frieza. He brought back Frieza and gave him 4 months of training and somehow he was able to match up to SSJ Blue Goku. That was insane and stupid way just to retcon Frieza.

I always thought Yonko > WG (Navy HQ) + Warlords.
This is because the WG feared 2 Yonkos getting together Shanks and WB and possibly allying to defeat the WG.
Then, with the MF War how they called in all their elite Marines (100,000) + Warlords + 3 Admirals + Various VAs etc.
Too me that seemed that WG feared WB only 1 Yonko, and amassed such a huge fleet to fight one crew.
Even Sengoku stated that they may still lose.
Although the war showed the Marines had the upper hand and ultimately won, it did show how many steps the Marines took in order to weaken both WB and his crew without having to fight them head on.

But after seeing Wano, my judgement of Yonkos waned. Oda did them wrong building so much hype to the Yonko name.
I still believe 1 Yonko > Admiral, maybe even 2 Admirals in a straight fight.
People like to devalue the Yonko by referencing BM vs Kid/Law. But fail to take into account the surrounding circumstances that allowed Kid and Law to win.

 

[Franckie]

Biggest issue I've seen in this thread and at other sites is that people have yet to realize that the world is not a debating club. Formal debate is all about introducing facts - as many as possible - and then refuting them. In real life, this is not called debate, it's called the most boring thing in the entire world. It persuades no one. I've been doing it for a long time, and as far as I can tell, have persuaded virtually no one of anything.

People are not persuaded by facts. Rather, they are persuaded by emotions. They are persuaded only when they're listening to someone who shares their worldview. They are persuaded by "arguments" that are beneficial to them - perhaps monetarily, perhaps in conferring status, perhaps in vilifying people they already didn't like. This is how you win in real life.

Still, I think it's worth having some conversation over powerscaling, if only to pick people's brains over the matter. I'd be very curious with how Moria would look, for example, had he stayed in shape. Prime Moria fough equal to Kaido when they clashed, so who knows what crazy stunts he'd be capable of had he stayed in shape.

 

[Fox666]

@Fox666 what make u think zoro and sanji is equal just curious?

actually never mind people are debunked ur Argument lol

Because they are, that's how the author thinks

In Ennies Lobby, the author provided the powerlevels of CP9 agents... and Zoro's opponent was 1% stronger than Sanji's


But there's a thread for Zoro vs Sanji, I won't spam this one