One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

Or maybe Luffy's attacks just hit like a truck. Zoro also cut up Kuma, and without Ashura, Shishi Sonson was enough.

Magellan later fought with all of Level 6, and survived.

The idea that the pre-skip Strawhats have a damage output of zero is just wrong. This is clearly an inconsistency the community is creating themselves.

Like, somehow, I think there's the impression you need Haki to injure Haki users, but that's not true at all.

I don't think it's about their damage output having been zero back then, or about haki being an absolute necessity to fight haki users.

In this case, it's about Luffy being barely strong enough to take on a Pacifista, but injuring guys like Magellan with Gear 2, then immediatelly post-TS annihilating Pacifistas with a single punch, then becoming leagues stronger with new types of haki and gears, and there still being guys who can somewhat match him (even Ulti. We all know she would have lost, but she still clashed a headbutt with Luffy on Onigashima and it's Luffy who was sent flying).

By comparison of feats, Magellan, poison or not, would be annihilated if Onigashima Luffy (pre-G5 and pre-aCoC) even looked in his direction, but that seems wrong when Ulti clashed with him like that. She's a Yonko executive but not even an All-Star.

Magellan can still take out Ulti with his poison, but he would go down with a single headshot, which is why he was called a glasscannon.

 

[Fox666]

Or maybe Luffy's attacks just hit like a truck. Zoro also cut up Kuma, and without Ashura, Shishi Sonson was enough.

Magellan later fought with all of Level 6, and survived.

The idea that the pre-skip Strawhats have a damage output of zero is just wrong. This is clearly an inconsistency the community is creating themselves.

Like, somehow, I think there's the impression you need Haki to injure Haki users, but that's not true at all.

It's very inconsistent

In terms of durability without Haki, even Whitebeard flesh was vulnerable to gunfire. Only Kaido and Big Mom are practically invulnerable without Haki.

However, Haki exists. It terms of defense, it depends of the level of Haki. Luffy was stronger than Kuja pre-timeskip... but when it comes to Yonko commanders, they should have an impenetrable barrier for pre-timeskip Luffy. Heck, even post-timeskip Luffy was forced to use Gear 4 to damage them.

But defense is not the only factor. Post-timeskip Luffy could one-shot a Pacifista. But his strength was still laughable compared to Yonko commanders. The same goes for Gear 2 speed. On top of that, CoO should make it impossible to attack any character off guard.

Heck, during the war, 20 Pacifistas were a pain in the ass... but Marco, Jozu and etc should have been able to take down all of them in mere seconds.

 

[albertwv]

Or maybe Luffy's attacks just hit like a truck. Zoro also cut up Kuma, and without Ashura, Shishi Sonson was enough.

Magellan later fought with all of Level 6, and survived.

The idea that the pre-skip Strawhats have a damage output of zero is just wrong. This is clearly an inconsistency the community is creating themselves.

Like, somehow, I think there's the impression you need Haki to injure Haki users, but that's not true at all.

Yes Pre TS Zolo was able to damage Kuma. In Chapter 485 page 6 Zolo slashed and cut Kuma, made Kuma bleed on his shoulder exposing Kuma's cyborg body. But Kuma only felt a mild cut as you can see by his reaction. Kuma didn't even fall to his knees at all. You're implying that if Zolo had used Ashura...what? Would that have defeated Kuma or what are you implying?
Zolo barely damaged Kuma at all. If anything it was like Apoo's music slash towards Zolo, Zolo felt it but it overall didn't do much damage.

Now several of us have brought it up to your attention but you fail to understand. Pre TS Gears Luffy, Pre TS Zolo with Ashura, Pre TS Sanji with Diable Jambe, and the rest of the Straw Hats all collectively after a hard battle, probably more tough than Oars battle, were able to take down One Pacifista.
If anything you can conclude that Pre TS Sabaody Straw Hats greater or equal to One Pacifista.

So you implying Pre TS Zolo with his Ashura is stronger than somebody like Page One or other Yonko level executives, you're completely in the wrong.

But what if we find out that akainu has ACOC would u say it’s an inconsistency or was he holding back in MF?

What if? What if he doesn't? What if he have no proof he does? Let's not get into What IF possibilities.
People have argued that both WB and the admirals were severely holding back in Marineford in order to not destroy the island.
Akainu has ACoA at least.

 

[McNuss]

In this case, it's about Luffy being barely strong enough to take on a Pacifista

Naah, the Pacifista are overrated. They freak out thinking it's Kuma. Once they got that the head is a weakness while charging beams, they destroy it rather quickly.

It's a machine, it's pretty pointless hitting the body without Haki. They also don't have feelings so they aren't shouting "bugeh" or something when hit like Magellan did. Marineford implies the allied captains figured out the weakness, too, and from that point onwards the Pacifista don't play a large role in the battle anymore.

Given Usopp found it first, and that he is pretty good at running and sniping, I'd argue he could take one out if it really came down to it.
He also shot the Pacifista in the balls btw which is kinda special because in asian martial arts, this is considered very dishonorable and attacking techniques to the balls, while they exist in theory, are never practiced. Hence why you rarely see it in manga, but I guess a robot is okay.^^

With machines and animals, one has to alter their evaluation a bit. They aren't 1:1 comparable to humans.

Animals are often portrayed with superhuman durability and strenght, but also with a certain dumbness making them take any attacks and fall for any traps (e. g. Sphinx in Impel Down).

Machines won't flinch no matter how hard you hit them, but upon taking too much damage, they stop working and go from "On" to "Off" rather quickly, with no getting back up. They also have only very limited decision making.

It's very inconsistent

In terms of durability without Haki, even Whitebeard flesh was vulnerable to gunfire. Only Kaido and Big Mom are practically invulnerable without Haki.

However, Haki exists. It terms of defense, it depends of the level of Haki. Luffy was stronger than Kuja pre-timeskip... but when it comes to Yonko commanders, they should have an impenetrable barrier for pre-timeskip Luffy. Heck, even post-timeskip Luffy was forced to use Gear 4 to damage them.

But defense is not the only factor. Post-timeskip Luffy could one-shot a Pacifista. But his strength was still laughable compared to Yonko commanders. The same goes for Gear 2 speed. On top of that, CoO should make it impossible to attack any character off guard.

Heck, during the war, 20 Pacifistas were a pain in the ass... but Marco, Jozu and etc should have been able to take down all of them in mere seconds.

Depends on what you count a Yonko Commander. I wouldn't find pre skip Luffy taking out Curiel or Atmos unbelievable. Actually I don't even expect him to have much trouble with the latter. Some of the others probably aren't that strong either but they all lack feats, and only Blenheim was even named in-arc alongside the others you and I have mentioned...and his feat is pulling Jozu *badumm...tss*

It's a bit unfortunate that we only have such an incomplete bounty set for the WB Pirates. Squard was only 210 Mil as a veteran, which should speak miles about what the allied captains are. Luffy eats all of them except Little Oars jr and maybe Whitey Bay, honestly Whitebeard is a sexist.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 28, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 28, 2022 ---

You're implying that if Zolo had used Ashura...what? Would that have defeated Kuma or what are you implying?

No, I am implying Asura would have made a bigger cut.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

So you think Mr 1 should have flabbered Dracule Mihawk? Or what feats do you want to talk about? His one dedicated scene in prison shows him coping with it with ease, unlike the other prisoners.

It's also a bit weird that you use Galdino to make a point, who has amazing feats both in his introduction arc and in Marineford.

Well considering you made the argument that Wano shows seastone makes one stronger and the two people we had this with in Wano went from YC level fighters to being capable of fighting 2 Emperors I would think someone like Daz bones after spending far more time in kairoseki would survive longer than a single casual slash from Mihawk.

Yes I used Galdino since he has no particularly good feats of strength. His capabilities seem exactly the same as when we met him back in Arabasta. Heck he was even knocked out by Luffy's CoC burst cuz he's a weakling. He was useful only in the sense that his DF power has novel applications but I don't think that counts as him having grown stronger. Even with respect to his DF powers we saw no growth.

Power-ups have always happened based on what is convenient to the story

One Piece has never been consistent with power levels, sometimes they are not even power-ups, it's just characters beating someone they shouldn't be capable of

That's true, it has always had inconsistencies but I think most of us can agree this inconsistency & sudden power creep has gotten worst in the last couple of arcs.

 

[albertwv]

Naah, the Pacifista are overrated. They freak out thinking it's Kuma. Once they got that the head is a weakness while charging beams, they destroy it rather quickly.

It's a machine, it's pretty pointless hitting the body without Haki. They also don't have feelings so they aren't shouting "bugeh" or something when hit like Magellan did. Marineford implies the allied captains figured out the weakness, too, and from that point onwards the Pacifista don't play a large role in the battle anymore.

Depends on what you count a Yonko Commander. I wouldn't find pre skip Luffy taking out Curiel or Atmos unbelievable. Actually I don't even expect him to have much trouble with the latter. Some of the others probably aren't that strong either but they all lack feats, and only Blenheim was even named in-arc alongside the others you and I have mentioned...and his feat is pulling Jozu *badumm...tss*

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 28, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 28, 2022 ---

No, I am implying Asura would have made a bigger cut.

So what if Ashura would have made a bigger cut? We saw that Pre TS Zolo with Ashura couldn't solo a Pacifista. The Pacifistas were only overrated after the timeskip, but before that they were giving the whole Straw Hat crew a helluva matchup, possibly even worse than Oars was.

I agree that Pre TS Luffy could possibly take out Curiel or Atmos, I don't consider them YEs or even close to YCs. While they are WB Pirate division commanders and are praised to be strong, most of them lacked any substantial feats and were semi-fodderized in Marineford. Curiel challenged Moria, who Pre TS Luffy had beaten, we didn't see them actually fight, but I find hard to believe Moria would have lost to him.
Atmos, literally got caught by Doffy. IDK why he had the balls to challenge Doffy.
Those 2 WBP commanders failed to elevate the WBP. The only ones I would worry about were WB Division Commanders 1-5. its hard to gauge the rest.
It was not until Wano with Izo showing his skills off that we see that Izo is a high YE, but not YC level. At least not in my book. Although until I see the other WB Division commanders in further action will I rank them higher. But I highly doubt we will see anything more from any other WB commander, maybe Jozu or Vista but nothing else.

I see oven, Daifuku, Perospero, Flying 6 members, being able to easily overcome many of the WB Division Commanders outside of the top 5.

 

[Nie Li]

Naah, the Pacifista are overrated. They freak out thinking it's Kuma. Once they got that the head is a weakness while charging beams, they destroy it rather quickly.

It's a machine, it's pretty pointless hitting the body without Haki. They also don't have feelings so they aren't shouting "bugeh" or something when hit like Magellan did. Marineford implies the allied captains figured out the weakness, too, and from that point onwards the Pacifista don't play a large role in the battle anymore.

Given Usopp found it first, and that he is pretty good at running and sniping, I'd argue he could take one out if it really came down to it.
He also shot the Pacifista in the balls btw which is kinda special because in asian martial arts, this is considered very dishonorable and attacking techniques to the balls, while they exist in theory, are never practiced. Hence why you rarely see it in manga, but I guess a robot is okay.^^

With machines and animals, one has to alter their evaluation a bit. They aren't 1:1 comparable to humans.

Animals are often portrayed with superhuman durability and strenght, but also with a certain dumbness making them take any attacks and fall for any traps (e. g. Sphinx in Impel Down).

Machines won't flinch no matter how hard you hit them, but upon taking too much damage, they stop working and go from "On" to "Off" rather quickly, with no getting back up. They also have only very limited decision making.

Depends on what you count a Yonko Commander. I wouldn't find pre skip Luffy taking out Curiel or Atmos unbelievable. Actually I don't even expect him to have much trouble with the latter. Some of the others probably aren't that strong either but they all lack feats, and only Blenheim was even named in-arc alongside the others you and I have mentioned...and his feat is pulling Jozu *badumm...tss*

It's a bit unfortunate that we only have such an incomplete bounty set for the WB Pirates. Squard was only 210 Mil as a veteran, which should speak miles about what the allied captains are. Luffy eats all of them except Little Oars jr and maybe Whitey Bay, honestly Whitebeard is a sexist.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 28, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 28, 2022 ---

No, I am implying Asura would have made a bigger cut.

Yeah... no, you made a big post but you didn't really counter my argumentation at all. Nothing you said about Pacifistas changes my point, so I can only try to make it clearer.

Pacifistas' may be as overrated as you want, but it took:
- Closing it's mouth when it's firing a laser so it explodes inside it's mouth.
- Plenty of Gear 2 attacks.
- A Gear 3 attack.
- A Diable Jambe attack.
- An Asura attack.
- And plenty of other attacks before it finally stayed down.

Just to take down just 1 Pacifista Pre-TS.

Instead, post-TS 1 casual G2 punch makes one explode. It wasn't about Luffy hitting a weak point, because it also took just 1 nameless, casual slash from Zoro to cut through another one cleanly (vertically and from the shoulder, not touching its head).

If there are characters who are not top tiers (Ulti) who can still clash with Luffy after he got plenty of additional power ups to the strength of his attacks... then Magellan, who was made to bleed (and I think brought to his knees?) with G2 Pre-TS, can't take them.

So, once again:
- Magellan defeated Blackbeard and some of his future commanders together with his poison, in an instant and easily, meaning he's a cannon.
- If Magellan takes a single headbutt from Ulti or anyone near her level, he'll die, meaning he's made of glass.
Conclusion:
- He's a glass cannon.

This is based on his feats. Oda would probably retcon him if he reappears but I doubt he'll be back since he's retired.

This doesn't mean Magellan can't defeat the commanders you mentioned in your post, because he has his cannon part, but there's no spinning him out of the glass.


EDIT: Just for further clarification. Pacifistas being overrated or not is irrelevant, we merely use their hardness as measurement of just how monstruous was the jump in strength the monster trio underwent during the timeskip.

 

[McNuss]

Yeah... no, you made a big post but you didn't really counter my argumentation at all. Nothing you said about Pacifistas changes my point, so I can only try to make it clearer.

Pacifistas' may be as overrated as you want, but it took:
- Closing it's mouth when it's firing a laser so it explodes inside it's mouth.
- Plenty of Gear 2 attacks.
- A Gear 3 attack.
- A Diable Jambe attack.
- An Asura attack.
- And plenty of other attacks before it finally stayed down.

Just to take down just 1 Pacifista Pre-TS.

Instead, post-TS 1 casual G2 punch makes one explode. It wasn't about Luffy hitting a weak point, because it also took just 1 nameless, casual slash from Zoro to cut through another one cleanly (vertically and from the shoulder, not touching its head).

The thing is, I think it could have taken even more attacks or even punches from any Yonko without Haki (or laser beams, lighting etc.), because it's likely made out of Wapometal like the Shogun. It's a robot, attacking the shell won't do any good but the head is really a crucial weakness.

The result of any of these attacks on a human* being made out of flesh and blood would still be significant even in the post skip verse
*Except Big Mom, Kaido and probably...Pound lol but seeing how he survived being beheaded. Bobby Funk has such a body, too albeit not on that level.

Asura would effect any as its CoC and Kaido would probably try to make Zoro a Tobi Roppo had he witnessed it.

If there are characters who are not top tiers (Ulti) who can still clash with Luffy after he got plenty of additional power ups to the strength of his attacks... then Magellan, who was made to bleed (and I think brought to his knees?) with G2 Pre-TS, can't take them.

So, once again:
- Magellan defeated Blackbeard and some of his future commanders together with his poison, in an instant and easily, meaning he's a cannon.
- If Magellan takes a single headbutt from Ulti or anyone near her level, he'll die, meaning he's made of glass.
Conclusion:
- He's a glass cannon.

This is based on his feats. Oda would probably retcon him if he reappears but I doubt he'll be back since he's retired.

This doesn't mean Magellan can't defeat the commanders you mentioned in your post, because he has his cannon part, but there's no spinning him out of the glass.

But Ulti is a top tier. She easily showcased the highest durability of ouf any Tobi Roppo, her sturdiness is absurdous. She clashed with Luffy, took a Raimei Hakke from Yamato, fought Usopp and Nami, took a Maser Cannon from Big Mom, and only finally got down after another strike from Zeus. I might have even underrated her in my tier list, she is definitely stronger than Who's Who.

Big Mom's homie attacks particularly have a ranking:

Basic: Heavenly Fire/Raitei/Longsword Form
2-piece Fusion: Cognac (Prometheus+Napoleon)/Marmalaide (Hera+Napoleon)
3-piece fusion: Maser Cannon/Maser Saber
Advanced: Misery

Ulti took the Maser Cannon. She's really nuts, can't see Who's Who taking that, the Ogi techniques are probably a comparable level of power.

Ulti would certainly go to Level 6, and Magellan fought with all of Level 6 and survived. Many probably were desperate getting out...he is not a glass cannon.

He is also back, albeit Hannyabal is now the Warden and has become obese. Basically they swapped positions. He is badly scarred in his face and one of his fake wings has been repaired with metal for the lulz.

Saldeath is now 18 which means WG does child labor. He grew very tall and Sadi developed a crush on him, just another example of the many romances spiralling up progressively more and more starting with Thriller Bark.

 

[LaGOAT]

Yes Pre TS Zolo was able to damage Kuma. In Chapter 485 page 6 Zolo slashed and cut Kuma, made Kuma bleed on his shoulder exposing Kuma's cyborg body. But Kuma only felt a mild cut as you can see by his reaction. Kuma didn't even fall to his knees at all. You're implying that if Zolo had used Ashura...what? Would that have defeated Kuma or what are you implying?
Zolo barely damaged Kuma at all. If anything it was like Apoo's music slash towards Zolo, Zolo felt it but it overall didn't do much damage.

Now several of us have brought it up to your attention but you fail to understand. Pre TS Gears Luffy, Pre TS Zolo with Ashura, Pre TS Sanji with Diable Jambe, and the rest of the Straw Hats all collectively after a hard battle, probably more tough than Oars battle, were able to take down One Pacifista.
If anything you can conclude that Pre TS Sabaody Straw Hats greater or equal to One Pacifista.

So you implying Pre TS Zolo with his Ashura is stronger than somebody like Page One or other Yonko level executives, you're completely in the wrong.




What if? What if he doesn't? What if he have no proof he does? Let's not get into What IF possibilities.
People have argued that both WB and the admirals were severely holding back in Marineford in order to not destroy the island.
Akainu has ACoA at least.

Right here u just answer question so u think they was holding back. In short there possibly was holding back. Again I’m not saying there was proof of him having ACOC I’m just asking a hypothetical question

 

[albertwv]

Right here u just answer question so u think they was holding back. In short there possibly was holding back. Again I’m not saying there was proof of him having ACOC I’m just asking a hypothetical question

Yeah they were holding back from unleashing their full DF powers, but not ACoC. WB couldn't use his ACoC, which we know he's had it, but for Akainu we have no proof he has ACoC. Not even Garp is confirmed only Sengoku the only confirmed CoC.

I don't think Akainu has ACoC or CoC. Which makes him frightening. Being that strong without CoC. I can see Akainu having ACoO (FS) and obviously ACoA.

@McNuss, you give respect to Ulti and even rank her pretty high but somehow rank her brother, who is relative to her, waaaaaay low.
You make no sense at all.
If Page One was so weak compared to Pre TS Characters, why would Kaido allow him to join his crew and be a Flying 6 member, who are the strongest headliners in his crew. His crew is a meritocracy, where you rank up based on your strength.

 

[kkck]

I think plot will kinda require akainu to have CoC cladding as the story moves to the endgame. The marines need an actual answer to yonko level fighters. The new generation has taken the stage and to put it simply, they are hungry. WB was old, kaido and big mom were carefully bidding their time in an arms race. Now shanks is the senpai yonko and he has shown he can be very active. In a short amount of time he engaged with WB, kaido and according to extra materials his forces have grown over time and probably has significant forces at his disposal. BB took over WB's territory and has amazed both numbers and devil fruits in his quest for OP. He has been successful in getting dangerous abilities for his crewmates. Luffy is has shown he can fight actual yonko toe to toe, has obtained insane haki for his age, all of his executives have acquires varying measures of infamy and the armada is not so something anyone can or should ignore. Luffy is not quite in the empire game as previous yonko but he still has one, if almost by accident, and his path makes him probably the most threatening yonko to the world government. The cross guild is in a weird spot but if buggy retains the ID prisoners as members then that alone gives him one of the stronger militias around. On top of that the actual muscle behind the group woul be mihawk, a rival to shanks. He probably is not in the empire game either but he isn't likely to pass a good fight. The cross guild does not yet evidence executive level folk outside of crocodile but that only means mihawk will probably have to be more active. Overall the issue the WG has to deal with is not only shiny new yonko but also far more active and ambitious yonko.

 

[McNuss]

Luffy is not quite in the empire game as previous yonko

If you count in Wano Country, which is pretty much implied to have become his territory, he's definitely in the range of one. The Wano militia is insane, he has the 9RS (which I just noticed, Shinobu and Yamato perfectly fill in the spots of Ashura Douji and Izou and the end picture implies they did), he has Hyogoro and the four Yakuza leaders, he has Carrot and the entire Mink tribe, an army of Samurai, Ninja, Yakuza, brainwashed Gifters and turncoat Beast Pirates, a Number (Fuga) and the Dragon that is Kozuki Momonosuke.
Ah and he also has Bellamy him having a Vivre Card is an obvious chekov's gun get ready for the great savior Bellamy lol.

Luffy's forces have become insane. It's actually Blackbeard that is behind, but probably has a zombie army as of now due to capturing Moria and Hogback.

Cross Guild are snacks and not worthy being called a Yonko. It only really works because they overestimate Buggy. His military power from top to bottom is a joke compared to Totto Land's, which - as far as our knowledge goes - still exists.

 

[weixiaobao]

"- If Magellan takes a single headbutt from Ulti or anyone near her level, he'll die, meaning he's made of glass.
Conclusion:
- He's a glass cannon. "

I noticed there are some really trouble reading of power creep between arcs. Some people would think there are huge power growth even among base form between arcs. In Skypiea, right away we see Wyper wiped the floor with the monster trio. And then by Water 7, seemingly Luffy and Zoro can do nothing against the CP9. But Oda has a certain tricks in term of rising the tension. On Skypiea, it was quickly reveal by Gan Fall that Luffy and companies who just arrived, haven't get use to the altitude change. And in Water 7, Nami revealed that doubts and internal turmoil among the strawhats are preventing them from being their best. Ohm is a different fighter than Mr. 1, provide a different set of challenge to Zoro. But that doesn't meant he can tank a Lion's Song. Heck Kaku, latter on, opt to cancel out that attack rather than tanking with Tekkai. And latter on, that same move made a small dent on Kuma's body. I watched these power scaling video, and some people put King way higher than Ashura Zoro. But we don't know for sure if King can tank Ashura. Like we don't know if Cracker can completely negate King Kong Gun, since Luffy for weird reasons never use it (at least in the manga, I don't know about the anime).

Whatever he is, Magellan's durability and defense should be higher than Nami/Usopp. If Nami and Usopp able to took multiple Ulti's headbutt. Than Magellan can definitely do the same.

 

[Fox666]

Don't take powerlevels in One Piece too seriously. Do we really have to go through all the pre-timeskip that don't make sense?

Luffy defeated Crocodile, hit Magellan, sent Blackbeard flying, dodged Mihawk attacks, smoothered an attack from Sengoku...

Heck, Luffy was treated like he was something in Marineford. Post-timeskip he would be an insignificant ant, and the Yonko have dozens of fights on his level under them.

Crocodile being a powerhouse in Marineford and having a bounty of 1.9 billion makes sense narration-wise. The Gorosei were worried that the balance of the world was shaken. If he was weaker than a 100 million pirate, it would create a plot-hole elsewhere.

 

[McNuss]

Post-timeskip he would be an insignificant ant, and the Yonko have dozens of fights on his level under them.

And that's where we disagree, i think.

The Yonko do not have a dozens Luffy's. From what we know about their bounties, with his 400M he would be already a top dog in any of their organizations.
Curiel didn't put a scratch on Moria, without any shadows, and Luffy defeated Moria with 1000 shadows. People downflate the pre skip, I don't see any reason for that at all.

Were the other Supernova insignificant ants for going to the New World without training? Or did they get their title upped to "Worst Generation", did become a Shishibukai, a Rook, a Tobi Roppo, took out a Sweet Commander or stole a Road Poneglyph?

 

[weixiaobao]

Don't take powerlevels in One Piece too seriously. Do we really have to go through all the pre-timeskip that don't make sense?

Luffy defeated Crocodile, hit Magellan, sent Blackbeard flying, dodged Mihawk attacks, smoothered an attack from Sengoku...

Heck, Luffy was treated like he was something in Marineford. Post-timeskip he would be an insignificant ant, and the Yonko have dozens of fights on his level under them.

Crocodile being a powerhouse in Marineford and having a bounty of 1.9 billion makes sense narration-wise. The Gorosei were worried that the balance of the world was shaken. If he was weaker than a 100 million pirate, it would create a plot-hole elsewhere.

It makes sense if the growth through out preskipped is not that big. And that at the end of preskipped Luffy was indeed somebody going into the New World. There are milestone, and those are real change in power such as the gears, or advance haki. But you need to remember Gear 4 for example was developed during the timeskipped. In fishman island, Luffy already possessed Gear 4. I viewed Luffy's power is relatively constant until his mastery of Gear 4 increase via the end of Dressrosa and into WCI, also picking up advance CoO.

I watched these ranking videos and people had base Luffy weaker than Kalifa. That is such an magic trick on us. In Water 7, we never knew the power hiearchy. It was Rob Lucci (and Kaku), the strongest of the CP9 (who have CoA and CoO at this time) is 5 to 6x stronger than the weaker CP9 agents, was the one that embarrassed Luffy and Zoro in Water 7. And indeed, it required a power up for Luffy to beat Rob Lucci. But base Luffy already on par and or stronger than Blueno. Blueno couldn't defeat base Luffy. And if Luffy had keep it up, he could defeat Blueno. He brought out Gear 2 as practice, and make short work of Blueno.

Luffy through out preskipped keep punching people at such heavier weight class then he is. Enel, Crocodile, Moriah, Magellan. The big problem is the Pacifista thing. Pacifista is both too strong and too weak for people. Preskipped, the only people who low difficult the pacifista was Hancock. Who recently low difficult 2 Blackbeard commanders. Who during the preskipped could have easily low difficult one of the more prominent Vice Admiral that isn't an Admiral candidates. In the manga at least, when facing white beard alliances. The panels cut short, we never saw how that fight played out. But the Pacifista were outnumbered and being swarmed by pirate (at least in one panel, one person was a captain). And they successfully damage a Pacifista. Do you know who else damage a Pacifista? Robin and Usopp did, using strategy and by luck. Damaging something doesn't equate to defeating it. Pacifista was already strong enough than 95% of a Yonko crew. If we looking at said Kaido's crew. We are looking at the Numbers and up to be efficiently deal a Pacifista. Headliners like Babanuki or Holdem would have trouble with a Pacifista. And even then, even if they beat a Pacifista (the Numbers), how useful are they after such a battle?

Btw, Luffy Post skipped in fishman island already have Gear 4 in his back pocket. And you think he is an insignificant ant? Heck, even if Jack had show up in Fishman Island and challenge the strawhats crew. A battle between him and Luffy, he may not come out on top. Especially against an opponent like Jack is in Luffy's wheel house. Luffy is not good against hax devil fruit opponents, and strategists. But against a simpleton brawler. Fishman Island Luffy may have a chance with gear 4. Cracker is a difficult opponent since Luffy just wasting his stamina against clone biscuit. But with Jack, every single hit count. And it will wear down Jack eventually.

Luffy, preskipped should also being able to beat some of the ministers under Big Mom and headliners under Kaido. Where does it said that Opera, or Holdem would be so so much stronger than a preskipped Luffy?


EDIT: I could see Luffy King Kong Gun Jack into the ocean. Even if Jack didn't get KO, he would be useless once knock into the water. I can see that possibility at least.

 

[albertwv]

People are trying to make sense of the Pre TS power levels and raise them higher than they should be.
All we know is that Pre TS Luffy and other Supernovas and Straw hats had a combined effort to HIGH diff one single Pacifista.
Then Post TS Luffy, Zolo, and Sanji were able to low diff (one hit) a Pacifista. Oda made it exactly that way in order to show off how strong the M3 had gotten.
From there, we can calculate that Lucci and Moria level characters are weaker than a Pacifista and therefore weaker than most NW veterans.

 

[weixiaobao]

People are trying to make sense of the Pre TS power levels and raise them higher than they should be.
All we know is that Pre TS Luffy and other Supernovas and Straw hats had a combined effort to HIGH diff one single Pacifista.
Then Post TS Luffy, Zolo, and Sanji were able to low diff (one hit) a Pacifista. Oda made it exactly that way in order to show off how strong the M3 had gotten.
From there, we can calculate that Lucci and Moria level characters are weaker than a Pacifista and therefore weaker than most NW veterans.

Depend. If you put the strawhats in a jungle at different starting place. And you release Rob Lucci and a Pacifista for different trial. The Rob Lucci person may be more effective at hunting them all down and kill them. Pacifista is very durable, took hits like a champ. At least some of the strongest attack from the weak and mid trio. The combined attacks from the strong trio put them down. Their attack is admiral level with Kizaru laser. But, they so ineffective, goddam Usopp running around them. Heck the one that they really can injured are the brawlers that really got into your face like Urouge or X Drake (Or shooting into a crowded Whitebeard pirates with nowhere to run). X Drake/Urouge too confident in their strength and haven't learn the basic of dodging or something (jk). Like Gear 3rd can be an effective attack on a Pacifista. But against Lucci, after the initial blow. He acted exactly like Dofy and just dodge it. He, Lucci, landed more attacks on the strawhats than the Pacifista. It felt more to me that the strawhats hurt themselves by punching the Pacifista than the Pacista hurting them. If Robin and Usopp eventually found out how Pacifista can be damage internally. A Rob Lucci could possibly figure it out. I think, a Pacifista with the most average IQ could destroy Rob Lucci. However, as it stand. Rob Lucci could very easily escape and or just dance around while chipping the things down with water or something. What really made Rob Lucci really really scary in Enies Lobby, is that he is very intelligent. He isn't like a genius planner like Crocodile. Or shifty like Enel. But how he can grasp the situation, and deal a crazy blow to his enemies. He almost killed the entire strawhats crew by submerging the tunnel.

Moriah is interesting. His fruit is extremely diverse. Moriah without prepare Shadow, probably can't do much. He always had that hax ability of stealing shadow and let things burn in the sun light. But his base ain't' gonna hurt a Pacifista. Moriah in Marineford. Able to tank a True Fist from Jimbei and got back latter eagerly to fight. I think that punch from Jimbei could easily damage the Pacifista. With the shadows available, he able to pierce Little Oars Jr. So that attack could do some damage. And when facing Nightmare Luffy (probably stronger than a Pacifista). Despite Oars buffered a lot of those punches, Moriah did endure a bunch of those attacks by being inside Oars. And get back afterward. Had he was at 100% health, Asgard Moriah would have able to control his shadows better. But Asgard Moriah's attack is strong enough to seriously hurt a Pacifista. Remember, the WG didn't just send just one Pacifista after Moriah. They send 6 Pacifistas (in the anime clip, 4 in the manga panel though a bunch are out of view), along side Doflamingo to kill Moriah.

 

[albertwv]

Depend. If you put the strawhats in a jungle at different starting place. And you release Rob Lucci and a Pacifista for different trial. The Rob Lucci person may be more effective at hunting them all down and kill them. Pacifista is very durable, took hits like a champ. At least some of the strongest attack from the weak and mid trio. The combined attacks from the strong trio put them down. Their attack is admiral level with Kizaru laser. But, they so ineffective, goddam Usopp running around them. Heck the one that they really can injured are the brawlers that really got into your face like Urouge or X Drake (Or shooting into a crowded Whitebeard pirates with nowhere to run). X Drake/Urouge too confident in their strength and haven't learn the basic of dodging or something (jk). Like Gear 3rd can be an effective attack on a Pacifista. But against Lucci, after the initial blow. He acted exactly like Dofy and just dodge it. He, Lucci, landed more attacks on the strawhats than the Pacifista. It felt more to me that the strawhats hurt themselves by punching the Pacifista than the Pacista hurting them. If Robin and Usopp eventually found out how Pacifista can be damage internally. A Rob Lucci could possibly figure it out. I think, a Pacifista with the most average IQ could destroy Rob Lucci. However, as it stand. Rob Lucci could very easily escape and or just dance around while chipping the things down with water or something. What really made Rob Lucci really really scary in Enies Lobby, is that he is very intelligent. He isn't like a genius planner like Crocodile. Or shifty like Enel. But how he can grasp the situation, and deal a crazy blow to his enemies. He almost killed the entire strawhats crew by submerging the tunnel.

Moriah is interesting. His fruit is extremely diverse. Moriah without prepare Shadow, probably can't do much. He always had that hax ability of stealing shadow and let things burn in the sun light. But his base ain't' gonna hurt a Pacifista. Moriah in Marineford. Able to tank a True Fist from Jimbei and got back latter eagerly to fight. I think that punch from Jimbei could easily damage the Pacifista. With the shadows available, he able to pierce Little Oars Jr. So that attack could do some damage. And when facing Nightmare Luffy (probably stronger than a Pacifista). Despite Oars buffered a lot of those punches, Moriah did endure a bunch of those attacks by being inside Oars. And get back afterward. Had he was at 100% health, Asgard Moriah would have able to control his shadows better. But Asgard Moriah's attack is strong enough to seriously hurt a Pacifista. Remember, the WG didn't just send just one Pacifista after Moriah. They send 6 Pacifistas (in the anime clip, 4 in the manga panel though a bunch are out of view), along side Doflamingo to kill Moriah.

what are you talking about? A jungle?

In a straight brawl PRE TS Straw Hat crew mid-high diff a single Pacifista. Then POST TS the Monster Trio one shotted 2 Pacifista. Oda clearly made it to show the growth of the 3 strongest Straw Hats.

 

[LadyVados]

What if Zoro had never gotten Enma but Sound-wave swordsmanship was technique unique to Wano and Zoro had learnt that and managed to cut/scar Kaido and wound him because of that ?

Would it have been more or less impressive than what actually happened ?