Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
What's weird about my question? You're saying Zoro, Doflamingo and Whitebeard have acted unlike the video suggests some times, so I asked for examples of them or any other CoC user acting differently.
Luffy going out of his way to start the fight with Kaido doesn't contradict any points.
What about Sabaody or Impel Down? In Sabaody, they just lost and Luffy was finally broken when he thought everyone else was dead. We didn't see anything from Law and Kid there other than taking on some fodder marines.
I don't remember details from Impel Down, so go ahead and enlighten me if there's anything relevant there or if I remember it wrong, but I do remember Luffy repeatedly engaging in a fight against Magellan and only really running because he was in a rush to save Ace (and pretty much pulled out of there by everyone else).
What's weird about my question? You're saying Zoro, Doflamingo and Whitebeard have acted unlike the video suggests some times, so I asked for examples of them or any other CoC user acting differently.
Luffy going out of his way to start the fight with Kaido doesn't contradict any points.
What about Sabaody or Impel Down? In Sabaody, they just lost and Luffy was finally broken when he thought everyone else was dead. We didn't see anything from Law and Kid there other than taking on some fodder marines.
I don't remember details from Impel Down, so go ahead and enlighten me if there's anything relevant there or if I remember it wrong, but I do remember Luffy repeatedly engaging in a fight against Magellan and only really running because he was in a rush to save Ace (and pretty much pulled out of there by everyone else).
What's weird is you want me to show examples of Zoro and Whitebeard doing something that Law hasn't done either. All of them have avoided fights but none of them have run away from fights they can't win. Which actually isn't true for a few of them.
The Kaido fight wasn't what you described it as Luffy chose to fight Kaido, he wasn't confronted by Kaido. Big difference to what you're claiming Law does (Which is avoid and run away from confrontstions).
Shabondy they ran away. Impel Down was Luffy running away from Magellan for half of the arc. When they have nowhere to run, they fought but when they can run they have run. Same for Whitebeard and his refusal to fight.
Also, Doflamingo definitely ran away from a potential fight with Aokiji. Thats not really debatable.
Now let's look at how many situations Law has been in where he's straight up chosen not to run away and have conflict. Vergo, he faced when he had Laws heart. 2v1 against Fujitora and Doflamingo. Doflamingo 1v1 on the bridge to let the SH's escape. Hawkins he threatened to kill if he hurt his crew (Who Hawkins held hostage). Rooftop fight was essentially the 5 of them acting like conquerors (Especially the three captains) facing against Big Mom and Kaido. Big Mom he chose to face directly and didn't give up despite being knocked down 3 separate times. Blackbeard he's in a fight for a winner takes all after being ambushed (Similar scenario to Kidd, Apoo and Hawkins vs Kaido).
Luffy vs Kizaru would be actualy interesting fight. Judging on the fact that Luffy beat Kaidou, he probably would also beat Kizaru in an extreamly difficult fight. However I feel like this arc is too short for such an important fight to happen. So I am almost sure SHs will either run before Kizaru comes, or they will just have a minor undecided battle
What's weird is you want me to show examples of Zoro and Whitebeard doing something that Law hasn't done either. All of them have avoided fights but none of them have run away from fights they can't win. Which actually isn't true for a few of them.
The Kaido fight wasn't what you described it as Luffy chose to fight Kaido, he wasn't confronted by Kaido. Big difference to what you're claiming Law does (Which is avoid and run away from confrontstions).
Shabondy they ran away. Impel Down was Luffy running away from Magellan for half of the arc. When they have nowhere to run, they fought but when they can run they have run. Same for Whitebeard and his refusal to fight.
Also, Doflamingo definitely ran away from a potential fight with Aokiji. Thats not really debatable.
- Your correction makes no difference to the point that was made in the video about the Kaido fight.
- They didn't run away in Sabaody.
- I already addressed what you're saying about Impel Down in the previous post and I don't want to go back and forth of the same point forever. They were
in a hurry to save Ace with their priorities straight. Different scenario from the ones presented.
- Whitebeard's refusal to fight has nothing to do with what was described in the video.
- Doflamingo didn't run away from Aokiji. He was outmatched and he certainly didn't want to fight him, but he stood his ground firmly and would have fought had Aokiji wanted to. BIG difference.
What he did was much less running away than what Law did with Kaido the first time, so I find it ironic that you insist on defending that "technically Law didn't run away" but double down on saying that Doflamingo did.
Now let's look at how many situations Law has been in where he's straight up chosen not to run away and have conflict. Vergo, he faced when he had Laws heart. 2v1 against Fujitora and Doflamingo. Doflamingo 1v1 on the bridge to let the SH's escape. Hawkins he threatened to kill if he hurt his crew (Who Hawkins held hostage). Rooftop fight was essentially the 5 of them acting like conquerors (Especially the three captains) facing against Big Mom and Kaido. Big Mom he chose to face directly and didn't give up despite being knocked down 3 separate times. Blackbeard he's in a fight for a winner takes all after being ambushed (Similar scenario to Kidd, Apoo and Hawkins vs Kaido).
It's a valid point. Law has stared death in the eyes (and so have most One Piece characters. Almost every fighter with fighting skills in the series has done that at one point of the other) in multiple occassions, but that's a different point than the one originally made, and the video does make a distinction between that (something almost every fighter in the verse has done) and the specific situations that were compared, and the attitude of the characters in them.
It's too much of a back and forth if I have to literally quote the video if you mention something that was answered in it. The video that started this discussion (that I had never watched until it was posted nor was my opinion before watching it, btw) acknowledges the Roof Piece fight and others but makes a clear difference between them and the other situations.
The discussion here would be if their attitude in some of those confrontations, like the rooftop fight, is enough to consider anyone a conqueror, but if that was enough, most characters in the verse would have it, so that's not it, another difference should exist.
I don't mind Law having CoC, but what we're trying to find out here is what makes the others conqueror's while he's, to our knowledge, not. Fine, you don't agree with the video's reasonings, and you don't agree with me in what sets those instances apart. Cool, that's your opinion, we aren't going to agree and anything both of us says is entirely subjective unless Oda explicitly says "blue is blue" in his verse. However, since we aren't going to agree regarding the video, perhaps you can suggest a better explanation than the one in the video of what makes someone a "conqueror"?
Leaving the video's perspective behind, which I still think was pretty solid despite this talk, my personal opinion is that there's simply no real common trait between CoC users and that it's just genetics. "Conqueror's predisposition" is just a name given by people, not necessarily an unlocking condition.
I haven't heard your take, just that you don't agree with the take on the video, so what is your take on what makes a "conqueror" in One Piece? I'm all ears.
I think it'd be more prudent to just wait and see, mainly because I don't think we'll actually be able to discern which strong-willed individuals get CoC until Oda actually reveals it. I don't think anyone expected Katakuri to have CoC as he didn't initially check all the "boxes" of a conqueror. Neither does Sengoku. Then we have the popular theory of Usopp getting CoC. The idea of what constitutes a Kingly "Disposition" may not be as clear cut as people are thinking.
Using the guy who is the least likely to have it as an example, Sanji may not be as goal oriented as Luffy and Zoro, but his personal convictions manifest itself in other ways. His chivalry. It may not be related to his dream, or as cool as Luffy and Zoro's goal, but he's just as serious about it and has shown a willingness to uphold it by any means necessary. Going by the list of Kingly qualities, that counts under stubbornness to the point of being unreasonable.
His recent crushing of the Raid Suit is another example of his convictions/strength of will. He chose to remain his flawed self rather than the unfeeling monster, despite acknowledging the latter would be much more helpful. Again, not as goal oriented, but, to me, it feels similar to CoC users who refuse to let others dictate how they live. People always highlight Sanji's "Give Up" statement in the Baratie, without including the additional context of Zeff pointing out that Sanji was basically lying to himself about his own ambitions in a misguided attempt to pay him (Zeff) back. Zeff straight up says that Sanji has a similar "Spear of Grit" that Luffy and Zoro did, he wasn't putting it to work.
In regards to Sabo, I think it's just a case of him not having any opportunities to demonstrate it. I really don't think Sabo is a good example in the video, especially since it focused on a single moment from young Sabo during a scene that was meant to highlight Ace's similarities to his father.
We've since seen Adult Sabo stand his ground on several occasions with a refusal to back down, despite it potentially endangering his mission, to the point where he was scolded by Koala for it and not for the first time apparently. He didn't need to fight Fujitora. He chose too. I also find it likely that that trait is what got him in his current predicament. Everyone else that invaded the Reverie just so happened to get away, except for him.
There's also the whole "Flame Emporer" thing, which I feel is a nod towards the charismatic aspect of CoC.
In regards to Law, I think it's a similar situation to Sabo. He just hasn't had an opportunity to demonstrate it. We were told Kidd has it, but he never demonstrated it on screen. I don't think we should be using Law's preferred manner of confrontation as an indictment of his chances of having CoC. Sengoku seems to be a similar type of character and he has the ability. He pulled out a number of tricks during the war to indirectly weaken Whitebeard's people without jumping into the battle himself until the last minute. Not even against Whitebeard himself.
Law's not out and out with it, but he does have similar tendencies as Luffy and Kidd. They are gag moments, but their game of Chicken with Big Mom's flames and their waterfall race do demonstrate that, underneath his calm and collected exterior, he's cut from the same cloth as them.
Which brings us to Blackbeard, who is similar to Law in his approach of preferring strategy and attacking at opportune times. Personally, I don't believe Oda won't give the one of the most well known pirates and Luffy's most important Pirate rival CoC. Narratively, I just think it makes sense for him to have it. Especially if he's Xebec's successor.
I definitely agree that Blackbeard is taking a bunch of shortcuts in his journey and that will indeed bite him in the ass, but I don't think that'll discount him from CoC. He is plenty ambitious and he has a drive to win by any means necessary. I think he's just going to be the worst person with CoC. All the worst aspects of a conqueror rolled into one.
If we go back to Law vs BB, I think that'll be the moment where both get to reveal it. I can see Oda doing the sky splitting with those two to show they are on the level of Yonkou.
Conqueror's haki is still something which you are born with. You can't get it obtain it through hard work or sheer balls as far as the story has told us. Trying to tell who has it or not based on personality is basically trying to read a fictional character's horoscope. It's possible to guess but it's not something we should expect consistency on. The most reasonable way to speculate on this IMO is the plot angle. Does the plot require a character to have conqueror haki or not?
On a plot angle I would argue:
law: probably has it. He is somewhat of a rival not only to luffy an in terms of overall position in the world he is right after the formally recognized yonko and is effectively a rival to them as well.
Sabo: Hmmm, probably? I don't think the plot specifically requires it tbh but it fits the theme of his brothers having it.
BB: It's probably the most interesting case because there's an argument for and again him having it imo. On the for side there's the fact that he is a yonko who took the world by storm after decades of bidding his time. Basically, he is a yonko and it makes sense for him to have it. On flip side he does have a somewhat unusual career path for a yonko and was willing to even not pursue his dream over finding a devil fruit. Even WB made the point he is not like other d nor the one roger was waiting for. Basically, him not having it further contrasts how he differs from luffy, roger, WB and other Ds.
Well because power scaling is off, many times. For example Zoro had a long fight with Pica, who wasnt even YC3 level. And 2 arc after, without any visible powerups he suddenly beat Yc1 King within 2 chapters
Well because power scaling is off, many times. For example Zoro had a long fight with Pica, who wasnt even YC3 level. And 2 arc after, without any visible powerups he suddenly beat Yc1 King within 2 chapters
You've highlighted one big problem of "power scalling" right there. Power scalling in the series is dubious but the way some of us calculate levels and such is nonsensical and only serves to create headcannons that are later crushed and make people mad for no reason.
In this example, you think that Zoro having a long fight with Pica puts him around his level in any way. However, Zoro was clearly a much stronger character having trouble finishing off a tricky opponent who wasn't interested in finishing their duel and kept running away.
He didn't "suddenly jump from below YC3 to YC1". He went from somewhere clearly above Pica to YC1. And we even know how he did it: he mastered advanced CoC (+ months of training between both fights).
Power scalling in the series is dubious but the way some of us calculate levels and such is nonsensical and only serves to create headcannons that are later crushed and make people mad for no reason.
Framing? For the longest time we've had the story tell us that even going above 300 mil bounty wise was pretty damn difficult. At the 500 mil range you were already dealing essentially with a legendary pirate. Sweet commanders started at 800 mil, calamities at 1000 mil. 1000 mil by itself is a huge benchmark, no shichibukai we knew of got that high a bounty before becoming a shichibukai. Immediately before wano the yonko were peerless, the people that could go toe to toe with admirals could be counted with one hand and even YC1 through YC3 were mostly unmatched in the pirate world. Then immediately after wano oda starst throwing around 1000 million+ bounties and maybe yonko level fighters aren't peerless? The situation is simple. It's not convenient for oda to have luffy simply rolfstomp enemies like kaido would have done in his sleep so everyone who fights him won't get immediately one shot and 1000 million bounties+ will rain.
Well because power scaling is off, many times. For example Zoro had a long fight with Pica, who wasnt even YC3 level. And 2 arc after, without any visible powerups he suddenly beat Yc1 King within 2 chapters
Pica had a troublesome ability that let him avoid Zoro's attacks. "Not even being YC3" doesn't mean shit if the enemy has an ability like Pica's with a (literally) enormous home field advantage. Next you're going to say Oda's powerscaling is shit because Buggy lived being sliced up by Mihawk.
Zoro didn't have any trouble with Pica at all once he had a direct clash with him. Good lord some of you are ridiculous about this.
The whole balance of power in the world just radically changed with the end of Wano. Shit is getting dire for the WG and especially Marines. The increases in bounties across the board- especially for the ex-Warlords- shows that the government is desperate. It's not saying Crocodile is somehow now this pseudo-Emperor PoWeR lEvEl, it's saying that he's an extremely dangerous individual to be out there running a Baroque Works 2.0 with obscenely powerful and influential people like Mihawk and Buggy respectively.
And even then- it's natural that people like Croc, Lucci, and Kaku have leveled up significantly over the timeskip. Not enough to really threaten our fledgling Emperor's crew, but threatening enough to be a problem in certain circumstances. Like right now, it's not 1v1-no-items-Final-Destination, it's Lucci trying to assassinate someone that Luffy is basically doing an escort mission with. And Croc is one of the many characters who were broken by their youthful failures in the New World who are now reinvigorated by the currently upended status quo of the world- who knows how strong his haki was in the past or is now.
You mean the distance, Megatons equations..Those crack me up….
Are we being serious. Are we bots? It’s an emotional response. It’s a Adventure/battle shounen. If Usopp took out WB, ppl have a reason to be upset.
@HereNThere
It’s not that Oda is Wrong lmao, I felt so attack by that meme lol…It’s Oda, your writing skills weak/sloppy.
I would like to think I fall in the category of. Wanting my manga to make consistent sense all the way through. If possible….So instead of being mad at fictional work & its characters. It makes a lot more sense to critique the author…I.E Wano Shenanigans…
@kkck I completely understand where you are coming from. @zetsu banned No that honestly isn’t an adequate answer. That’s one perspective to see it in…Doesn’t acknowledge the patterns Oda set up before….Same way how many saw it bad taste to use G5 to demonstrate Luci’s growth…All those new 1bil bounties will be seen in action somewhere down the line. They will most likely be performing on a level of everyone else we seen with a 1bil+ bounty….
One Piece is the shit. But Oda pulls a lot of BS, that the fans choose to ignore or make excuses for. It’s crazy.
Well because power scaling is off, many times. For example Zoro had a long fight with Pica, who wasnt even YC3 level. And 2 arc after, without any visible powerups he suddenly beat Yc1 King within 2 chapters
There are big issues with powerscaling, however your example isn't it lol.
Zoro one shotted Pica the moment he could actually find him cornered, he took time because Pica has a DF good for stalling. So Zoro started off a lot stronger than Pica, he possibly was a low commander level or borderline there already.
We even saw how Zoro jumped up since then. He got Enma and trained with it before rooftop, got advanced conqueror's haki in fight with King.
I think a better example is how Franky and Robin could suddenly 1v1 Tobiroppos (who are at least relative to Vergo), while there is no evidence they trained or had any powerups. Similar story can be said about Law as well, he got awakening since Dresrossa but somehow all his other unrelated stats also skyrocketed without any explanation.
WCI Luffy = Big Mom, Smoker Top 30 and Wano Zoro stronger than Sickbeard has to be the best failure in powerscaling I have ever seen (and I was a part of one of those)
@HereNThere
It’s not that Oda is Wrong lmao, I felt so attack by that meme lol…It’s Oda, your writing skills weak/sloppy.
I would like to think I fall in the category of. Wanting my manga to make consistent sense all the way through. If possible….So instead of being mad at fictional work & its characters. It makes a lot more sense to critique the author…I.E Wano Shenanigans…
The meme wasn't aimed at this board, but rather, other boards. We get the odd wild take every once and a while, but some places just act as a bad take factory.
Like, don't get me wrong. As mentioned a few times already, Oda has made some questionable scaling decisions. And I certainly don't think he's above reproach or criticism when those moments happen. I know I wasn't keen on some Wano decisions myself and spoke up about it during those chapters.
But folks getting mad at Oda for not writing a fight exactly as they envisioned it is something I can't get behind. Especially when a lot of them ignore any and all context surrounding those fights.
And things are certainly going to become much more muddled as we get closer to the end. Lucci's performance is just going to be the start and folks should really get ready for it. Then again, I always figured Lucci would come back reasonably strong anyway.
Oh please, I have plenty of criticisms for One Piece, including some of the wonky powerscaling- especially around certain aspects of haki. I just think the weird absolutism about certain match-ups or clashes and especially bounties of all things is unwarranted. I'm not ignoring anything nor making excuses.
And things are certainly going to become much more muddled as we get closer to the end. Lucci's performance is just going to be the start and folks should really get ready for it. Then again, I always figured Lucci would come back reasonably strong anyway.
If Lucci *didn't* come back reasonably strong it would've been massively disappointing. He's supposed to be one of the WG's trump cards, their strongest CP member. It'd be silly if he just got roflstomp'd into oblivion immediately. And even THEN, he was still "losing consciousness" before Luffy had to bounce. Then that was further balanced with the contrast of how they powered down- Luffy was suffering severe drawbacks from a power he's only used in one battle before, and Lucci was a-okay afterward despite the beating he took. I really wonder what would have actually pleased some people.
